I first found out about the affair on Nov 1, 2001. She swore that she wouldn't see him again, and has been seeing MC with me every week since. And every week she tells MC that she hasn't seen him. But today I found out that she still is seeing him. I have no idea what their level of involvement is (EA? PA?), but it was PA before, so... There has been no physical or real emotional contact with me since December, so I guess I should have guessed something is going on. The thing is, we have such a great life together. We remain very good friends, enjoy each other's company, have many good friends that we do things with, have three wonderful kids (wonderful, demanding kids - that was a big issue). What is she thinking? She has said over and over (and I believe her) that she doesn't want to lose our family. How does she think this will end?<p>I don't know what to do - when I should confront her. It's Good Friday, we're having 20 people over on Easter, we're going to Disneyland next Thursday, and I don't want to disappoint the kids - I'm inclined to sit on this until we get home from Disneyland.<p>Advice? PLEASE?? Prayer? I'm begging you...

This is just my opinion but I believe you are making a mistake by just sitting on it. I think it is very counterproductive. You are adults and you need her to know that you know that she has been untruthful to you since discovery and that there are repercussions to her actions. She is continuing to disrespect you and your marriage and potentially putting your health at risk even though you have stated there has been no connection with you since December.
I am a big believer in radical honesty but it seems again counterproductive to let your wife continue to cheat or lie to you when you know the truth. You can respectfully tell her that you know of her meetings with the OM and that this is unacceptable to you and your family. To put on a happy face for people coming to Easter is certainly not as important in being open and honest with your wife. Your marriage is your number one priority and burying your face in the sand for a period is not helpful. You deserve respect and you deserve answers. Your wife must have respect for you and your family or you really have no marriage. In short, you need to discuss this with your wife now and not later. I wish you luck.

Baffled,<p>Do your best to waited out until you are back from the trip. She is not being an adult, you have to be one otherwise your kids will suffer.<p>Plan A'ng your butt out. If she complaint about kids demands, then releive her from some of the responsibilities. Meanwhile be patience and get all the fact lines up. The key in here is you try to plan A'ng as much as you can and see if she is turning around. If she is not then you have to make a hard choice if you start loosing your love and patience. For now avoid the subject and have fun w/ her and the kids.

Thanks for the replies. The other issue that makes me want to wait is I want to see if this is an ongoing thing. One of the things she does is, if confronted with something, is that she will make up a very convincing story that this was just a one-time, chance, deal. So I also want to make sure that it is a pattern. I'll confront her either way, I just want to have more facts.

Baffled-<p>Keep your weekend plans. It sounds like a great family activity. Try to put the negative stuff out of your mind. Keep collecting information and noting it somewhere. Only spy or snoop if you can keep from LB'ing with the information. The advice you were given about working on a Plan A (hopefully with your W also) is a good idea.<p>If, at some point you are ready to confront (that is a bad word to use) your W with your information, you want to take it slow and not reveal all you know. I think that recovery is easier, and perhap even withdrawl easier, if your W admits to the A. How can you do this? Here's something that was suggested to me. Try telling her sometime that you need to talk. Make sure she feels comfortable and not threatened. Rule of Protection stuff here. OK, talk about how great you feel some things are going like family activities and recreational activites but that you know why you guys are not connecting on a personal level. Tell her that you know that she is still having that A and that this is interfering with recovery of your marraige. I would not even mention OM name in this discussion because that will make her even more defensive.<p>Ask her what she wants to do now. Do not threaten action. If she says she doesn't know what you are talking about, then tell her you just want the truth, that you know she is not telling the truth. Remember, take it slow. Keep your emotions in check. Don't give out information at this point. It is better if specifics come from her. Ask her again what she wants to do about repairing your M. If she denies everything and doesn't know what you are talking about, then you are going to need to tell her that you need to consider your options now because as long as the A and lies continue, it will be difficult, if not impossible to repair the marriage. Tell her that you are hurt and disappointed. DO NOT tell her how she should feel. Do not drag out the discussion.<p>If she admits to continued contact and the A, then ask her what she wants to do next. If you are lucky, maybe she'll say she wants to work on the marriage. Maybe she'll agree to write a no contact letter. Tell her this is what you need to rebuild trust. Again, do not try to teach her how to feel but emphasize what you need. As Steve Harley says, you don't want to teach if there isn't a student in the room.<p>Also, if she doesn't have any answers, don't provide any. Maybe take a time out or continue the discussion another time. No LB's here.<p>Keep up the family activities. Stay involved with the kids and friends. Do not complain to anyone else about your WS behavior. It will only make recovery more difficult. Try to keep this between you guys at this stage.<p>If your W wants advice, then you can teach. Admit to how you contributed to problems in the marriage but that you recognize those faults and you are working on them so that you can become a better person, husband, and father. Perhaps recommend some of the materials at this site or be ready with some Harley books (SAA) or other appropriate reading material. Only do this if she asks you for help.<p>My W and I have been counseling together for a while now and I am convinced that continued contact has played a significant role in our lack of progress. I had a discussion with my W similar to that I laid out above and my W denied everything. She tried to fish out information from me so she could defend herself on only those points. She has been unwilling to admit to the continued contact and actually another A since we started counseling. She thinks she can have the A without interfering with her role as W and mother. At this point I have not shown her my evidence. I am holding back waiting for her to come forward before I take the legal route.<p>Best of luck to you. Enjoy the weekend.<p>HoFS

HofFenceSitter -<p>Thanks. That sounds like very good advice. I think that I will just try and figure out what exactly is going on for now. Wow, what you said about how to talk with her - that sounds right on the money. One of the big issues is that she has never admitted to *anything* that I didn't absolutely know for a fact. So if I could somehow lead her to the point where she will admit what is going on... It would be a big step. I'm not holding my breath, though. Honesty when the truth is difficult is not her strong suit.<p>BTW, if you ask me, some amount of spying is preferrable to being in the dark and allowing the A to continue, thus killing any recovery chances.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Baffled:
<strong>BTW, if you ask me, some amount of spying is preferrable to being in the dark and allowing the A to continue, thus killing any recovery chances.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Baffled-<p>Just remember, the spying is not in effort to change your WS mind or position. It is to keep you informed of progress that you are making. It is really easy to LB with this information you gain from spying. This is why some people can not handle spying well. Best to you. I wish you guys the best. Remember, go easy and follow the Plan A stuff. BUT, it will be very difficult for your Plan A to make any progress if there is still contact. You might not be in Plan A very long if contact continues.<p>HoFS

Survived Easter - in fact had a really good time. W was sweet, semi-affectionate, fun - I could almost forget at times what was going on. Then I called her on her cell just now (Monday afternoon). Said she was in the car - but no car noises in a five minute conversation. She sounded a bit out of breath - have a feeling I interrupted something. It's not a good feeling to be talking to your wife and being relatively certain that she is in another man's bed. I have our GPS in her car, so I can check to see where she was for sure tonight. Yuck.<p>How can she lead such a double life? To everyone she seems the perfect wife, mom, friend. But she is living such a huge lie. How do people do that?

Bafflled,
Hang in there man you are doing good. Do you know who the OM is? Is he married? If so his wife needs to know. When the OM's wife in my case "found out" what was going on, it deffinatly turned the big fantacy into a big knightmare for the two of them which scared him away from my wife. They both went through withdrawls and there was some continued contact in the very beggining but it sure wasnt' fun for them, not like it was.
Now almost two years later, my marriage is better than ever so don't give up, it is going to be hard and hopless at times but I am living proof that there is indeed hope.<p>God Bless,
SH

Thanks. Good to hear hopeful messages. The OM is a contractor we had do quite a lot of work for us. He kept his trailer on our property for a couple of years, so I guess I was asking for trouble. I just figured it was like having a neighbor - bad idea. He's not married - but in a note I found, described my wife as "the love of his life". They have an intensely emotional affair. <p>Slap some sense into me - sometimes I wonder if I should just live with the affair and hope it blows over. So we can keep it together for my precious kids (14, 5, 3). My 5 year old is adopted, and I think about the trust that was shown us by his birth family - trust that he was going to be raised in a godly home, with parents who would set a righteous example of Christian love. My heart breaks. <p>Anyway, I shouldn't just hide my head, right? I need to tell her that she stops seeing him or we need to separate, right?

Baffled,
How are you doing?
There is no way to rebuild your marriage if the A continues. I suggest you reread the advise that HofFenceSitter gave to you. The best way for the affair to die its natural death is for you to plan A your butt off yet at the same time be honest with her about how you feel.
Have you talked to your wife about a "no contact letter"? She needs to understand how important this is in order for full recovery to take place.<p>God Bless<p>SH

Made it through Disneyland OK. We had a good time with the kids and actually a pretty good time with each other (when she wasn't sneaking off to call OM). I'm planning to talk with her tonight about what I know of the ongoing affair. We have a MC session tomorrow, so it seems like a good time. <p>I have a question: what does it mean to let the affair die a natural death? Does that mean that I just ignore it until it goes away? How does that work with asking her to write a no-contact letter? I'm not sure I can handle riding this out for an indefinite period of time until she decides that she is done with OM (or done with me).

Are you still being intimate with her knowing she is still having sex with the OM? If the answer is yes then I strongly suggest and hope that you are using protection. I have a friend who is in a similar situation and he is now stuck with a life
long disease. Please protect yourself.

I am wearing the same shoes Baffled. I don't know how to deal with this either. I am trying to be the best person I can be and improve myself as much as I can. I am also trying to keep tabs on what is going on with W. As hard as it may be. MC does not seem to be helping much. I sometimes want to just put this evil monster to death and call it quits, but I am too dedicated to my M. I guess I still have a glimmer of hope left. If it does end, I can say that I gave it my all and I never let my love for my wife die.

B, IS:<p>I got to admire both of you for hanging in there as well as you are considering your present situations. I sometimes feel that my W is right, in our case, that I'm making too big a deal of this, because she had ended A in her own view a couple of months before D-day. Trouble is, contact has continued, though only through email, and only sporadically since D-day. We've both been on an emotional rollercoaster since then, though, but I can't imagine what I would be feeling if I knew they were still physical. You've both been holding up amazingly well. I.S., sounds like you might want to consider changing MCs. I've been told by a few friends now that it may take 2 or 3 visits with different MCs to find one that you can work with. Or is your MC just trying to be careful, considering your W is still seeing OM?<p>Take care, both of you.

2Long: Not sure. MC keeps changing her game plan. I think she is frustrated. W is not cooperating much and is starting to refuse to try any suggestions from MC. <p>Our benefits are nearly depleted for MC. I think we only have one session left. We may change at that point if we still require MC. I may have to move my posts to the D/D board. (I hope not) I got her to look at some of the MB questionairs, but she only completed the RC questionaire. Plan on doing some special things for her the next couple of weeks.<p>I don't have much hope left for our M. I am getting so tired, but I cannot give up.

I talked with her about it last night - very much along the lines HofFS suggested (thanks). The talk went very well. No LBs, no yelling or shouting or accusations. She admitted everything, but it became very clear that she is deeply in love with OM. She says she feels like she will die if she stops seeing him. Ouch. <p>In MC session this am, she made the commitment to end it today. The MC made it very clear that her choices are stark - she stops seeing him or we stop being a family. That seemed to get through to her. We'll see. She's supposed to call me after she talks to him. <p>As far as initimacy goes - nope. She's a one man woman. Just has the wrong man.<p>I Spy - does your W know that you know?

Baffled...I got the same story. She said she would stop all communications except for work talk on at least 3-4 different occasions. She also said it had stopped to the MC. Guess what....I have proof that my W is continuing to communicate with OM in ways other than a work mannor.<p>Like your W, my W seems to have fallen deeply in love with OM. Despite their age differences as well as other things that just do not make sense. The EN he met were critical to her happiness. I am working on getting my skills honed in these areas. I think it is having some, very little, positive effects.<p>As for spying....keep everything you find under your hat!

Hey Guys,
First off let me tell you I know exactly what you are going through, I've been there and am now fully recoverd and happier than ever. There is hope!!
The hardest thing for me to do was to not show the pain that I was feeling. I wantend her to also feel that pain and I wanted HER to make that pain that I was feeling go away. The problem was, it just wasn't going to happen that way. You can't change her actions or her mind over night but you can change your actions and your mind now.
Begin by making yourself attractive with a good plan A. Read all about it here on this web site and stick to it. I know its hard but by doing so she will feel safe to be around you and will begin to desire to be with you. Don't keep bringing up the affair or show her your pain. This will only hurt her and cause her to run to OM for comfort. What you ultamatly want to achieve is for OM to do all the love busting (because her heart and mind will begin to focus on you not him) and at the same time cause her to run to you. With a good plan A, she will begin to feel guilty when she thinks about him, talks to him or is with him.
This is what we mean when we say "die it's natural death" and it will only happen when YOU make it happen by changing YOU.
IF you havn't filled out the Emotional needs Questionair, do it and really focus on meeting her needs and for now forget about her meeting your needs, that will come later.
I hope this helps.
Oh and one more thing that helped me the most....<p>Pray..<p>SH<p>[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: stillhurts ]</p>

All:<p>SH makes some very good points. My own situation is pretty different, in that my W had really ended her A on her own last fall, about 3 or 4 months before I found out about it. She did a lot of soul-searching that resulted in her realization of the fantasy and destructive nature of the relationship with OM on her own, but since I came "on the scene" with D-day so late in the "game," I'm going through all the emotional reactions to the A as if it were still going on. Sure communication has continued a bit (nothing in over a month now, hurray!!!), and sure, she doesn't understand (or maybe truly doesn't care) how or why I react the way I do, but she is trying in her own way and focusing on our relationship, again in her own way. At least she started C'ing yesterday, and we had our MC today. more about my fears about OM came up today, and MC was able to explain some of the things that I'm doing/feeling as being normal and her desire to forget everything and move on being normal as well. In the end, we had a couple of good, but somewhat heated discussions afterwards, and I feel good overall about them and about our prospects.<p>Your situations are different, in that you've found out during the As, and the OMs are closeby enough that frequent contact is possible. That's got to hurt, big time! (because I know how much I hurt, when my situation is so much more benign by comparison). But I have to "appear to take issue" here with the "no contact rule", because if I've learned anything from this forum and from interacting with my W and the Cs, it's that "no contact" must be my W's decision, particularly because she's such a strong-willed individual. I can't make it a demand. If I do, she'll give up on our M (to be fair to her, my "not listening" to her in the past is one of the reasons for strife in our M). She needs to choose our M on her own, which I think she's doing. If I "make her" choose us, she'll resent it. In your present situations, I'll bet that requiring no contact NOW will drive your Ws to their OMs. At some point, it will be reasonable to agree on no contact, but be sure it's agreed on. In our case, I don't think I'll ever get a full "no contact" agreement with my W, but in some sense I already have one, because she's so certain that she'll not be tempted to enter into such a relationship again that she'll not be drawn back into one with this guy in particular, whom she clearly has fond feelings for. So, I can start to focus more attention on our M, and worry less about OM. In any case, that's what I have to do if I want her to choose our M on her own, the only thing that will work.<p>Anyway, hang in there guys. This is very hard to see someone you love so deeply doing.