Okay. I was starting to feel pretty good of late, because my W started IC Monday and we both had MC yesterday. I have my IC again tomorrow and we both have MC again next week. So, why am I so down?<p>I told W before her IC session that I was worried that she might get one of those that says: "problems in your M? Jettison the M!" She didn't, thankfully, but she wouldn't say anything about what they talked about. Okay, it is her IC.<p>Next day at MC, she brought up that her IC asked her "If this problem with your H not giving you enough attention has been going on for 11 years, why didn't you leave then?" Sounded a bit like "Jettison the M!" to me, but W assured that's not what she was after. But it bothered me, nonetheless. <p>One other thing brought up, by me, was that I was working on not bringing up OM to W, based on my IC's recommendation. W insisted at MC and home afterwards that "If I think I can expect her to never see or speak to OM again, then we've got nothing to work on." MC explained my hurt and repeated Qs about A at same time W wishes to move on and forget as being normal. But hell, she's NOT planning to stop contact, which I guess is normal too, but for someone still in the fog. My IC sees this, but the MC didn't seem to, at least to me. <p>Then, MC "noticed" that I wasn't "listening" to what W had to say about her frustrations with me not listening to her troubles over the past 11 years and to pressuring her into having sex and pouting when I don't get it. I had actually thought I had been doing a lot better in that regard, but she apparently doesn't think so. Sheez! So, I go away from MC meeting thinking that BOTH my W and MC believe that the problems in our M are 100% "my fault." Intellectually, I know that's impossible. I also know, through this website and my own C'ing, that W can't truly respect me or our M if she pigheadedly insists on being able to contact OM on a personal basis for as long as she wants. To be fair, we talked also about how hard/impossible it is to have close opposite sex friends, and she's decided she can't do that with any male anymore - because they all "want the same thing" even if she "tells them straight out that she's not interested." So this need to keep in contact with OM doesn't make any sense to me at all. Oh yeah, though she said that this job she's supervising that he's working for her on will be done in 8 months, she said she will probably have him work for her on other projects! I'm sorry, I can't stand that.<p>Then, last night I kept waking up with weird dreams/nightmares. One I remember well went something like this: Our family was at a weekend camping event that we go to related to my favorite hobby. I was trying the whole weekend to find just what level of attentiveness and affection she "needed" and ignored my hobby and the activities related to it. At the end of the weekend, when everyone was packing up, she asked me to stop smothering her and why didn't I do any of the things I came up here to do? I pouted and clammed up. <p>Very much like my life lately. Not enough info from her about when I'm being smothering. Like the sex thing: She ENJOYS the heck out of it when we have it, so long as it isn't more than once in a day. We've been having sex about 2-3 times a week lately, and I've thought I was doing pretty good at not making her do it when she didn't want to. On our weekend away, we had sex twice in one day. I didn't know she didn't really want it until afterwards. This has been the story of our sex life since we started 27 years ago. I almost always initiate, and have to tread on eggshells in hopes that she won't say "no" when I'm too involved. My W initiates sex maybe 5% of the time, and many of those times it's by saying "we could make love if you want to." Well, heck. What if I do and she is only mildly interested, then changes her mind partway through (this happens sometimes). I feel rejected anyway. My W does very little while we have sex, except to lie there and let me do my stuff. For the most part, that's fine with me, as I get my greatest SF by satisfying her. But lately she's been complaining that many times it's just too exhausting. Okay, so I back off the foreplay duration, which doesn't satisfy her at all, or even just "jump her bones" because she says that's all she wants sometimes, and that still doesn't give me "enough information" to provide her with what she needs or how often she needs it. <p>All this combined has left me feeling kind of sad about our chances again, and I've just recognized that it's really just another panic attack, albeit a mild one, making me feel depressed about pretty much everything I'm doing right now because I feel things are somewhat hopeless. Also, because I've had enough C'ing that I KNOW that I'm a decent person, and so any suggestion that I'm 100% or even primarily responsible for the problems in our M is making me wonder if I want our M all that much now. <p>I'm sorry, but I need things spelled out a lot better than they are these days.

2long,<p>Don't jump to any conclusions about the MC stuff yet. If the counselor is good, he/she will get to your W's problems. I suspect although I am not experienced in this matter, that when starting to sort this stuff out, the counselor "picks" on the strongest and most commited one first. To validate the more reluctant and recalcitrant and get them into the process. <p>I know if I were a counselor that is what I would do.<p>As for your W, and her declaration of OM being her friend and working with him again. I think that will change as you two move into recovery. You are not there yet. I understand you feelings on this, I would feel the same way, BUT you are going to have to be the strong here.<p>If OM is really going to be in her life for at least 8 months, then I would suggest that she come up with a plan to protect you and your marriage.<p>My take on this is that she doesn't really believe that you will leave her, because you are trying to save the marriage now. This seems relatively normal, that is why Plan B was invented. There will come a time when you are starting to lose your love for her fast. Plan B is meant to be used BEFORE you get to the no love stage.<p>I also think that ultimately you and she will come to realize that HER affair of eleven years is a major reason for some of your behavior toward her. UsedLongAGo came to realize that his W's 27 year affair did drive him away although he didn't know about the affair. Why? Well his W's focus was else where just as your W's focus is.<p>She wasn't focused on you enough to notice whether you were meeting her needs or not. THey were being met by OM. Also remember that giving up an 11 year affair will take a long time, probably the better part of a year, AFTER contact is broken probably.<p>It is interesting though that a 26 year marriage and children don't seem to hold the same attraction to her isn't it??? Actually, I think it does, but the children are leaving anyway, they are growing up and heading for college. And she hasn't really faced the fact that you may leave her. Not really.<p>So hang in there, this has a long way to go yet.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL:<p>I was really hoping you would drop in here, as my W is out in the field again and I'll be talking to her on the phone tonight. Want to be upbeat, if at all possible. In truth, the panic attack is fading, and I can look forward to working on our model planes with my son tonight (we planned this a couple nights ago).<p>"Don't jump to any conclusions about the MC stuff yet. If the counselor is good, he/she will get to your W's problems. I suspect although I am not experienced in this matter, that when starting to sort this stuff out, the counselor "picks" on the strongest and most commited one first. To validate the more reluctant and recalcitrant and get them into the process."<p>This possibility is very good to know about. I'd like to see what my IC's thoughts are on this possibility. I felt attacked by both of them yesterday, and it wasn't comfy at all.<p>"As for your W, and her declaration of OM being her friend and working with him again. I think that will change as you two move into recovery."<p>I sure hope so. I get signs from what she says that she's thinking this, at least subconciously. Like she said at one point that she can't wait until this job is done, so she doesn't have to work for this company again. So... if she intends to "hire" OM again for another project, it would have to be very deliberate, and she couldn't possibly expect me to stand for it. There are other people out there that do what he does. Not many, but even if he were the last man on Earth that...<p>"You are not there yet. I understand you feelings on this, I would feel the same way, BUT you are going to have to be the strong here."<p>I've made a point to only start threads in the "just found out" forum, because I won't acknowledge we're into true recovery until she is willing to devote 100% of her affection and intimacy to rebuilding our relationship. No more "how are yous" to OM (and a true "no contact" letter, written by BOTH of us, would be nice).<p>"If OM is really going to be in her life for at least 8 months, then I would suggest that she come up with a plan to protect you and your marriage."<p>Hm. How do I broach this? Talk to my IC about it and get some ideas? I honestly don't think she considers it serious enough to worry her. Either that, or part of her simply doesn't care how I feel about it. That's certainly what she says now.<p>"My take on this is that she doesn't really believe that you will leave her, because you are trying to save the marriage now. This seems relatively normal, that is why Plan B was invented. There will come a time when you are starting to lose your love for her fast. Plan B is meant to be used BEFORE you get to the no love stage."<p>I honestly believe she doesn't think I'll leave her, though she told me a couple of weeks ago that she's "always worried" that she'll come home and find I've moved out. If she and the C's keep making me feel like I do now, I will need to go to plan B before I stop caring about her. <p>"I also think that ultimately you and she will come to realize that HER affair of eleven years is a major reason for some of your behavior toward her. UsedLongAGo came to realize that his W's 27 year affair did drive him away although he didn't know about the affair. Why? Well his W's focus was else where just as your W's focus is."<p>I've said something like this to her, but she rejects it as stupid. My IC agrees that part of her attention was elsewhere. Attention, affection, devotion, caring, protecting, the whole 27 feet. I still need to look up ULA's story. Been too busy today with work and posting!<p>"She wasn't focused on you enough to notice whether you were meeting her needs or not. THey were being met by OM. Also remember that giving up an 11 year affair will take a long time, probably the better part of a year, AFTER contact is broken probably."<p>All the more reason to get no contact as quickly as is reasonable and agreeable for both of us. I can't stand the thought of waiting that long. Maybe if the "intensity" of the attachment wanes at the same time, I'll be able to cope with it continuing for a while longer, but not forever, which she expects me to tolerate at this point in time.<p>"It is interesting though that a 26 year marriage and children don't seem to hold the same attraction to her isn't it???"<p>I've noticed that!<p>"Actually, I think it does, but the children are leaving anyway, they are growing up and heading for college."<p>My D will be leaving to live in London for several months, then will probably come home and live away from our house. My son is a freshman in highschool. I sometimes think he's the only reason she stays. But then I recognize all the things I've done and am doing for her that she wants me to keep doing, and so she stays for reasons she can't admit, even picks on me for doing!
<p>"And she hasn't really faced the fact that you may leave her. Not really."<p>No, she hasn't. If she thinks about it at all, I think she's surprised that I would leave her for not breaking off contact with OM when she thinks that R was never a big deal. Yesterday at the MC, she said that the latest PA only happened twice, and one of those times she stopped it from getting sexual because she didn't want to. I thought she said "a couple of times" after D-day, but can't be sure. She also said that one of the places where she spent 3 months away from home that was within a day's drive of OM, she never met with him, only talked to him on the phone once. I'll have to accept that. I still don't know enough about the timing and number of encounters during the first PA, when they both worked together and he was living nearby. She says only a few times, but heck - he lived in the area apparently up until about 5 years ago. I need to know the approximate how many's and whens to put the puzzle pieces together and figure out how I was behaving at the time. That seems only fair to me.<p>"So hang in there, this has a long way to go yet."<p>Thanks, JL. I'll try!

2long,<p>There is one thing you need to remember. Althought no contact is best and safest, marriages have been recovered when contact is maintained such as in a job. What that seems to take is extraordinary care and sensitivity by the WS.<p>I think I may have mentioned to you our last one is a freshman in HS as well. Got two in college, but the oldest has decided to work for awhile before going back.<p>I think her insisting on contact with OM has several sources: YOU WON'T TELL HER WHAT TO DO, She hasn't finished with withdrawal yet, and she is still not admited that what she did was really wrong. The first probably has a lot to do with her personality, but actually seems to be normal, the other two take time.<p>I do have a thought for you. I once read a book on consulting. I cannot remember the title but suppose it is in my library at home. The interesting point of the book is that all of his competitors wonder how this guy continually gets consulting jobs. He doesn't seem to do anything. Even some of the people he works with wonder. <p>However, the CEO's of the businesses know. He gets results, BUT the results always seem to come from within the company. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] It seems that he has found that when ideas become the other guys, they are acted on. So all of his strategies are focused on deciding on what needs to be done or changed, and then convincing the people within the company that this plan is really their's. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>When I read your post, I think you may need to consider this approach with your W. Most of what you want seem common sense, but she isn't buying because they are HER ideas. She is independent and clearly knows what to do, right?? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Well, maybe it is time you let HER solve these issues, let the ideas become her ideas. I realize that you cannot always do that, but also consider that Plan A has an aspect of that. Work on yourself, don't educate the WS, etc. Let them "see" what can and will happen.<p>I realize that you are going to have to sort of guide this, but she is going to have to come to the conclusion that it is in her best interest and that she had a major role in doing things.<p>That is why I think you need to "challenge" her to come up with solutions. Then use the POJA to refine them, but they are always "her"idea. <p>Just something to think about, when building model airplanes.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Just a small side note- the kids may be going off to college, but there's still a family to lose. At one point, I was saying to my FWH, how do I know this (an A) won't happen again- you could just wait until the kids are older and leave me then....... and he said, "well, we'll still be a family then- look at my family, MIL, FIL, brother, sister- we're a family even though everyone's grown up."
When we threw a party for FIL's 80th birthday- he was surrounded by MIL (married 50+ years), his 3 kids with their spouses, and 5 grandchildren- this was the prize that my husband knows he would have thrown away if he'd left. His father could sit at the head of the table and receive so much respect and love (my MIL too). Those moments just don't happen so easily in divorced families.
Too bad your wife can't keep her eye on the prize.
Going to the hospital together when your first grandchild is born is the prize.

espoir:<p>We have talked about this from time to time in the past month or so. My W doesn't like to think about being a grandmother anytime soon, but that will probably change eventually. Yep, my login moniker stands for "we have too long a history together to just quit" I still feel that way, and feel that my W is worth working for, but I can see that at some point I'll cross the line into diminishing returns, if she isn't willing to make some sacrifices - like giving up OM contact completely, or sharing her "privacy" with me more fully. Those kinds of things. Oddly, or otherwise, much of our relationship is otherwise very nice right now. Some issues with SF have cropped up recently in an unexpected way for me, but maybe they're not serious. Maybe they are. I know too little at this point to be sure.

2long: You are making me feel old. I am 36 and feel just like you. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] We have a lot of similarities in our WS's. I suspect that your's is very independant, opinionated, driven, career oriented and wild to some extent. Am I right? I don't think there are any answers out there. Everything is just a test by the Great Power above to test us for the afterlife. I suggest do your best and feel confident that you gave it your all. If your M fails, you can safely report at the Big Gate that it was not your choice. If you M recovers, you can take credit. You are not the one that started this and you will not be the one to end it. You can only influence the outcome somewhat.<p>Hang in there and God be with you.