Hi,<p>It's me again. You've helped me in the past and as you've been through an EA like me, I'm hoping you can help me now. I've noticed that both you and your H post, maybe he can offer some advice as well. It would mean soo much.<p>I thought the fog was lifting for my H, but I've just realized it's still there, more than I thought. He just told me that he did go into his yahoo to see if she wrote. It hurt to hear him say this. I thought I handled it pretty well. (I did ask him previously if he went to another computer. He said no.)<p>I didn't say "thank you for telling me that, I appreciate it" but I was feelling it. Instead, I asked, (calmly) when and where he checked his e-mail. This is when his attitude changed. He became angry. "Why was I continuing with this. Why not just say Thanks for opening up, it means so much and leave it at that."<p>I needed to know more. The reason being that I asked him before if he went to another computer and he told me no. He obviously did. The fact he wasn't honest is what bothers me. I understand the pull towards the OW. <p>He says that I asked if he contacted her, which he says he didn't. He didn't want to tell me about checking his e-mail, because then he thought I would think he had contact, which he says he didn't.<p>He's saying that this is why he doesn't open up to me. It just makes things worse instead of better. But to me, it makes things better.<p>I'm not making much sense, I don't think. If you could try and make sense of this and give some advice, I'd really appreciate it.<p>Thanks,
H&S

H&S,<p>Hi, my H just happened to be on the site and saw me and let me know, so here goes my thoughts. I'll also ask my H to post his thoughts (from the WS viewpoint). <p>I think it was hard for you H to tell you the truth. I don't know your whole history and don't know if you H has lied to you in the past or not, but in my case my H used to lie to me about minor things just because he did not want me to get upset about things or unhappy (probably due to patterns learned in his childhood). It was easier to tell me what I wanted to hear -- or what he thought I wanted to hear -- than to risk making me mad or unhappy. Even if you don't have this type of pattern from the past, your H knows you do not trust him (of course, righly so, based on his recent actions) but he is probably very defensive about anything he tells you, especially when he anticipates that it will upset you.<p>I'm sure your H thought and agonized over what to tell you and what your reaction would be. But, the good news is that, even knowing he might not get a favorable reaction, he did as you asked and told you the truth. Now, I'm not saying you have to give him a gold star for telling the truth (this should be a given), but you do need to make sure you are "safe" to be told the truth. I think when your H told you, you did need to say to him that you appreciated his being honest with you and that you know it must have been difficult. Since things are probably a little emotional right now -- I remember when the wound was still very fresh -- perhaps you should have said that you might have some question later, but that you wanted to think about things and perhaps you could talk again.<p>I'm guessing that since you know he used a computer besides your home computer that you are able to monitor his activity on your computer. This is really difficult. You don't want to LB, but you also want him to know that you need complete honesty. <p>My best advice would be to go to him and ask if you could talk. Perhaps you should tell him that you are sorry that your reactions overwhelmed him and perhaps caused him anxiety/pain/guilt/whatever. Tell him that you would like to share your feeling about the situation -- you should do this in a calm manner -- perhaps ask him to just listen for a few minutes. Maybe even let him know that you are not expecting him to solve this problem (men like to do this), you just want to let him know what makes you feel insecure in his love for you and your M. You cannot force him to do anything. He is the only one who can make the choice to change his behavior. You should realize and not force this. It might be helpful to say that you are not demanding him to do anything, you just want him to know your feelings.<p>The communication is very difficult during the beginning of recovery. I know that my H and I always felt like we were on different wavelengths. We constantly misunderstood and misinterpreted each other. Remember that this is probably what you and your H are going through -- trying to second guess everything the other says to find the hidden meanings. That is why communication is so important -- don't get mad, walk away, fall into old behavior (whatever they were -- I used to withdraw from my H and he would end up placating me to stop any conflict) -- sit down and calmly explain your thoughts and feelings. Clarify and explain to you H what you meant by a particular comment. If a comment he makes bothers you, ask him for clarification. This stuff helps -- not an immediate cure, but I notice my H and I are not second guessing every statement the other makes and always seeing it in the worst light.<p>One question, has you H sent a no contact letter to the OW? If he hasn't, perhaps now would be a good time for him to respond with it. <p>Well, those are my best thoughts. Maybe my H has more insight. I will ask him to post to you.<p>Persistance and patience will win in the end and you will have a better M because of this.<p>FHO

Hurt & Sad
I just read your and my wife’s postings. I think she has it pretty well covered (only because we have pounded this out between us). Let me tell you it wasn’t easy for me. I always found it next to impossible to tell my wife things that would upset her. Now after my OEA it was even harder because our M was in such a volatile state. It was I with the problem, not her, but because she took the steps she did (listed in the post above), she is making it less difficult for me to let her know what she needs to know.<p>Something else that I have learned in the past months, if she needs to know something it’s not my place to judge whether or not she needs to know it. Your H will learn this once he sees how honesty helps to heal you both. Look at it this way, he did tell you he went online. This means he is conscious of his actions and that they might hurt you. The rest “HE” might have thought of as not important details. Maybe he just answered without thinking. You need to express that if you ask something it’s because it is important to you. Before you ask him anything I suggest you just ask yourself why you need to know. Is it because you’re upset? If it is take a step back and ask later. After things have calmed down a bit the answers to your questions will come easier. You will be so surprised what some time to calm down will do for you both. Just do it before things blow up. <p>Did you ask him why he wanted to see if she wrote? I remember at the beginning of our recovery going into my email account dreading there would be a letter from the OW. I didn’t want anything to force our recovery into remission (make my W so upset she would give up on us). I know my wife thought otherwise (she thought I was still trying to keep in contact with her). One of the main problems was that we were incorrectly assuming what the other was thinking. <p>I suggest maybe trying again but after you express your intentions are just to help yourself heal. Also tell how important it was to you that he told you that he had checked his email account. Keep at it things will get better….

Thank you both for your replies.<p>I'm amazed at your insight and even more so, given the fact you had so little info. Everything you say is soo true. I hear what you're saying, and I believe it, and I will try very hard to follow it. Thanks. <p>We did continue talking that night and we did send out the e-mail to the OW. It means alot to me that he would do that, but part of me still thinks that he could just talk it away with the OW and continue on their relationship.<p>This is one of the hardest things I've ever had to deal with and this site has really made a difference. Talking to people like you, who have been through it, and who are so insightful, has helped soo much.<p>I'm going to tell you a short version of what happened. I value your opinions and hope you can offer more advice.<p>Here goes...<p>BS - 36
WS H - 35
M 7 yrs. (together 14)
S 5 yrs.
D 6 yrs.<p>1st D-day - approx. Nov. 25/02 - was told it wasn't serious, just friends, would end it, and that he loved me and wanted our marriage to work. I believed him. We agreed to work on our marriage and changes were made for the better. Our relationship was better than ever, even my H says so. I never once brought up the A and did not doubt that it had ended. There is soo much I know now, that I did not know then. Had I known, I would have reacted differently. I did not know how serious these OEA's can be. I sensed he did not really get what he did, but I let it go.<p>2nd D-day - approx. Mar. 6/02 - found out after recording with spector - he kept on lying until I showed him the recording. I now know why, but I don't agree with it. We talked and talked, and I cried and cried. Again, he told me he loved me and wanted our marriage to work. We decided we would work on our marriage.<p>We have come along way since then. I am proud of how far he's come in such a short time. But I still do not believe. I wonder if it's still going on. Is this normal? How long will this go on? I don't feel that we can truly work on our relationship with my feeling this way. What can I do to change this? I have so many questions.<p>I've printed out almost all of the MB info. I have a pile of readings and questionnaires that we are going to go over, a little bit each night. I know this will help with our marriage. But I don't know what will help getting over this OEA.<p>Again, thanks for listening and all the great advice. Hope to hear from you both.<p>H&S

H&S,<p>Sorry, I didn't post back sooner -- busy weekend so far. <p>Well, the reason we and everyone else has so much insight is because the stories are pretty much all similiar. They follow a common pattern. Your story sounds a lot like mine.<p>My H and I did not really start recovery until after D-day #3. Prior to that, he was telling me that he was confused, didn't know if he loved me, etc. I found MB and started Plan A in earnest after D-day #2 -- prior to that I was trying to be understanding of my H's confusion (just thought he was confused about life -- wasn't that concerned about this person on-line because he had always had friends on-line and I believed him when he said, after D-day #1 that they were just friends and had been joking/flirting and that his confusion had nothing to do with her). At D-day #2, I found additional e-mails to him from her and knew that they were not just joking and weren't just friends. I thought that we could work together and put this behind us. I found MB shortly after that and started following the principals. About a week prior to D-day #3, I installed a keyboard recorder and discovered that even though my H had told me he was not in contact, he still was. I kept this info secret and continued Plan A -- my H was non-responsive to my Plan A -- continued to be withdrawn, etc. On D-day #3, I looked at the keyboard recorder and was so devestated by what I found, I was upset and hysterical when my H came home. I told him I knew that he was still in contact. He said he didn't love me and left. Before he left, I told him I still loved him and if he wanted to work on our M, to call me and I would be there for him. Later that night he called me and said he loved me and wanted to work on our M. That is probably when we began recovery.<p>Ok, let's talk about you. I don't think you will just "get over it" and not suspect your H of contacting her. I had the same suspicions you did and I still wonder if my H is contacting her some way -- my H has assured my he has not and that she has not contacted him and he will tell me if she does. These feelings and doubts will not go away automatically. That is what happens when someone betrays your trust -- it takes a long time to rebuild that trust. Anytime there is an additional betrayal, it sets you back to square one in rebuilding the trust. My H has lied to me about a couple of minor things since then and believe me, it completely sent me back to square one. He didn't know why it was such a big deal to me, but we have talked a great deal about it and he has talked with his IC about it and now understands why even a minor lie/half-truth, will make me lose any trust he has rebuilt. <p>It is really important that both you and your H understand you cannot sweep this under the rug -- this is a life altering event that must be dealt with, otherwise it will come back to bite you later on. You are not going to "get over it" today, tomorrow, this week, next week, next month, etc. It takes time. That is one of the hardest things to accept -- both the BS and WS want to put it behind them and move on in their life. This is not going to happen. The sooner you accept this, the better you will be. Understand that sometimes the memories and feelings about the A will sneak up and overwhelm you and you will wonder why you even bother to try. This is normal. But, the good news is that those feelings will get further and further apart. Sometimes you will be able to think about the A and it won't be a devestating pain. Remember this, it will help you through the bad times. I think the article Shattered Vows (you can find it at www.findarticles.com) really explains why it is important to deal with feelings. Also www.dearpeggy.com has some good advice on recovery, how long, etc.<p>You and your H should continue to read and share. If he will come to this site, this might be a good thing also. Remember that he still has some confusion and that he probably feels enormous guilt over everything. You are probably a trigger for his guilt (because everytime he sees you he knows how much pain he caused you and that he alone is responsible for inflicting this pain on the person he loves most in the world). Try to put yourself in your WS's shoes and imagine if you had to carry that kind of guilt around -- it would be very difficult. This helps me when I get frustrated with him. <p>You and your H should do the EN questionaire -- you can print it out from this site. This will give you insight into your H's ENs (and vice versa) and the ways he would like you to meet them. If you meet all his ENs, there will be no reason for him to seek out someone else. I think most OEAs happen because the WS is looking for admiration, affection and attention that they do not feel that they are getting from their BS. <p>Finally, keep posting. You will continue to have ups and downs (the rollercoaster), good days and bad. Sometimes you and your H will misunderstand and misinterpret the things you say to each other. You just have to continue to communicate and work through this. This is the process of recovery and rebuilding a better M than you ever had.<p>Hang in there. People here at MB are always ready to help and answer any questions you may have. I was really helped by the people here and it feels good if I can help someone else. You seem to be doing the right things. It just takes persistance and patience -- these are the greatest virtues you can have right now. <p>FHO

Hurt & Sad,
Hello again I am happy to hear you continued to talk with your husband, that’s exactly what you two need to do. I bet doing so helped him to understand a bit more what roles you both need to follow to make this work. After going through this myself I know what I think my wife needs and what she actually needs are two different things. She believes this is true as well (visa versa). So, I have learned to find out EXACTLY what it is she needs (well the best I can). I ask her, I watch her reactions to things I do (ever so carefully), and try to learn from/fine tune the way I handle any situation having to do with our healing. I also make sure I express myself to her when it comes to my needs (I need to be happy too for this to work). I know this might sound repetitive but I know it works for us. I can’t express it enough. <p>Once your husband realizes how hard you’re working to save this marriage (he might already) and that it’s because you love him so much, he will not even want to contact the other woman. This is what wakes us WS’s from the fog. And when he is awakened look out, you’re in for love returned 100 fold [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] and this is what will help to heal you. <p>Now, can you change what you’re feeling? I don’t think you can, but you can deal with your feelings. Hold on to how far he/your recovery has come. I know this is what me wife seems to do and I know she has come a long way in dealing with her feeling of being betrayed. Don’t sweep them under a rug think them though. Find thoughts that make you happy, the one ones that help YOU feel better.<p>Sorry this is a bit short we are running out the door and I wanted to check in on you. I will come back later this evening to see how it’s going. Post any questions (even if you need to be reminded or reassured of something). I will be happy to help in any little way.

FormerHopelessOne,<p>I hope you don't mind that I've asked you specifically for help. I've been on the site for awhile reading and posting some, but I found your situation most like mine. I am still reading other posts, and they do help, but I'm hoping we can keep this communication going. If you're uncomfortable with this, just let me know.<p>I'm relieved that what I'm feeling is normal. I was worried I was obsessing or something. I will try to be more patient and let things run their course. <p>I have shown my H some of the postings on the site. I've been careful as to what he sees though, as I don't feel he's was ready to see everything. At first he was upset at what I was showing him; mainly postings about the BS's reactions to the A and how the WS's reacted, how they should react, etc. He was saying that I was just showing him one side of things. He wanted to see what the WS's were saying. (See what I mean by he wasn't ready - he was still very defensive.) I tried to explain as best I could, but I'm not sure he understood. He seems to be okay with it now though.<p>My H did the EN questionnaire and I'm going to do it today. He really is trying hard. I see now why I married him and why I love him so.<p>You know, I'm realizing now that my 1st D-day was actually before yours. When I found out the first time I let it go. We focused on our M. I was also busy with X-mas and in Jauary we went away for 1 month. So, we didn't really deal with it. I regret that now.<p>How long was your H's OEA? My H says it was 6 mos. but I can't help but feel it was longer. I look back at the time frame it was going on, and I think about the different things that happened in our daily lives then and it's like piecing together a puzzle. Now I know why he did this, and this, etc. Do you go through this too?<p>I also feel like such a fool. How could I not have known? He would log on after I want to sleep. This explained why he was always so tired, didn't do much around the house, with the kids etc. I don't know how the WS's think it doesn't affect the M. I look back now, and see the deterioration of our M during this time. I'm still trying to get my H too acknowledge how this A mad our M worse. I understand how this is hard for him to admit.<p>I still go over in my mind the things they said to eachother. This is when it really hurts. I try not to think about it, but you know, it's there.<p>Well, I feel better talking about it some more. Thanks for your time and for helping me out. I better go do the EN questionnaire.<p>H&S

LoveHerMadly,<p>Thanks for taking the time to check up on me. I'm doing good. You and your W are really helping me out. I'm thinking about maybe getting my H on. What do you think of that idea?<p>I will try to think happy thoughts!<p>I'm so impressed with how you're dealing with this. You definately "get it." I think it will help my H to talk to you. I know he has come a long way too, and I'm trying to be patient. I know one day he'll be at the stage you're at.<p>I really am feeling better. I see us both working at our M and talking and communicating like we never have before. I do see our M becoming stronger. Now lets hope we can keep it going.<p>Thanks again,
H&S

H&S - I thought I'd jump in here and just respond to a couple of your questions (even though they are not directed to me). It helps me to know others in my situation, so it might help you as well.<p><<How long was your H's OEA? My H says it was 6 mos. but I can't help but feel it was longer.>><p>This was the kicker for my total flaming rageful parade around the house throwing furniture. I had assumed it involved a few conversations. Turns out they had been talking online sexually once or twice a week for a year. They actually talked more often, but not always sexually oriented.<p><<I also feel like such a fool. How could I not have known?>><p>Big fool here, except that I had made a very conscious effort and decision after the last time this happened to trust him again. Took a long time, but I did. This woman was a friend of mine as well, so I never saw this one coming.<p><<I still go over in my mind the things they said to eachother. This is when it really hurts. I try not to think about it, but you know, it's there.>><p>Very, very difficult. Over the weekend my WH was really good about letting me bring this subject up and getting it out, rather than my feeling I had to stew about it silently. It seems to help a great deal when he can put his own guilt and pain aside so we can talk about the specifics that I tend to dwell on.<p>We spent a long time talking about the underlying reasons for his behavior, in the context of his being unsure what we would be talking about to our MC. In my own analysis of his background (I have my master's degree in clinical psychology), I pointed out to him that in his family structure, he learned at an early age that the people he loved the most would (a) not love him back, (b) abandon him if they knew what he was "really" like, and (c)it was much safer to turn to relative strangers and especially the online stranger so he could commit only so far and safely back off without any emotional damage. Interesting conversation - now we're hoping the MC will have some concrete ideas on how he can overcome his past [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>KS

H&S,<p>I am completely fine with talking to you about this. I would be more than happy to answer any questions you might have and give you any thoughts I have. Actually, it really helps me to help you. Everything you talk about, I experienced -- just 2 months ago. I helps me to realize how far we have come and that gives me hope that we will make it. <p>I know my H sounds great -- he is and that is why I married him. But, when he was still in the fog -- which lasted a few weeks after D-day #3, he wasn't ready to read all the stuff on MB. It is funny (not HA HA, but weird funny) that my H also at first said that this site was just about BSs complaining about their M and what horrible things their WSs had done to them. Sounds a lot like your H. Just have patience with him and continue to communicate. This will help bring him out of the fog. Try to find a post to show him that talks in a positive light about the WS and/or is far along in recovery and talks about the WS's viewpoint and how the BS helped -- maybe something like that will help him feel that this site is not just about whipping BSs. <p>You know, the first time I read the site (when I was still in the -- that jerk, how dare him, he should be punished, how could he do this, I should leave him, he should be begging on his knees for forgiveness, etc.) I thought this site was very one sided also -- in favor of WSs. Look at what the Harleys were asking the BS to do -- start meeting needs for someone who betrayed you???? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] That didn't make sense. Why should I have to do anything -- my H was the one who messed up. Kind of funny that both sides only see things from their own POV.<p>I recommend you read KS41's post -- it is really good and I have posted on that as well because I feel we are going through similiar situations. I will try to answer the same questions she did. If you want to know anything else, let me know. Like I said, I'll be happy to help you out in any way. I am sure my H would also be happy to answer anything and give you insight into the WS mindset. <p><<How long was your H's OEA? My H says it was 6 mos. but I can't help but feel it was longer.>><p>My H doesn't really know the exact date. Of course, it started off with just chatting as friends (my H had people he chatted with online that I knew of and it never bothered me. Looking back, my guess is it started probably started end Oct/beg Nov. It is normal to try to think back and piece things together. When I was doing this, he must have been doing/saying that with the OW. Very, very normal. Be careful because when you piece things together (dates, conversations, things that were happening in your life) it will be hard. You will develop additional triggers. My H sent her some gifts -- one of them was a box of a certain kind of chocolates (which incidentally I loved). I can't see those chocolates without thinking about this. <p><<I also feel like such a fool. How could I not have known?>><p>Same thoughts here. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. Looking back I can see when my H started becoming more distant towards me. I was busy traveling for work and gettting ready to start law school -- I started this Jan. At first I didn't really notice, then I became distant myself because I was getting mad my H was so cool towards me and wasn't giving me more support and showing more appreciation of my accomplishments. Now, of course, I know what was going on and I feel that I was a fool not to question things further. My H would also go on-line after I went to bed. He also wasn't getting enough sleep. Always wanted to go in his den on his computer. Didn't want to go out or do anything together. How could I not have know? I think this is a normal thought. It is probably futile to obsess about this. Coulda, woulda, shoulda is not really going to do much good. Focus on what you are doing and are going to do -- the changes you make in reacting to your H. I know now if my H is distant, I needto sit down and communicate with him until I discover what is bothering him, instead of withdrawing.<p><<I still go over in my mind the things they said to eachother. This is when it really hurts. I try not to think about it, but you know, it's there.>><p>I agree. I actually printed out a lot of the e-mails that took place during that time -- not that most of the things they said to each other is not imprinted on my mind. The good news is that it will fade a little over time. If you have any actual documentation, I recommend you do not look at it for a period of time. Let the memory fade a little from your mind. Also, remember that your H is with you and choose you. What he was doing was living a fantasy life -- probably pretending to be a little bit different than he was in real life -- that is one of the attractions of an A. The WS can escape his/her everyday world and be whomever he/she wants to be.<p>Your H will slowly become ready for more and more information/talk. I think that he will slowly "get it". My H did not "get it" at first and I though he never would. But he did. Each day, the man that you loved -- that really great guy that you thought could never do this -- will emerge. It will happen. He will "get it" and will look back and wonder how he could have done this/risked and hurt the most wonderful person in the world.<p>Focus on building your M. Focus on meeting your Hs ENs. Keep communicating -- remember what types of communication works with your H and what makes him defensive and not want to try. Also, remember you are in a lot better place than many of the other on this site. Whenever I get really sad/depressed, I look at others posts and see what they have to put up with. Some of the BSs have a WSs who is still carrying on the A and does not want to work on the M. It is a gift when your H also wants to work on the M. Remember that.<p>I am here for you as are the other wonderful people at this site. Hang in there! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>FHO

Hurt & Sad,
I would be more then happy to help you and your husband in anyway I can. <p>“Should your H come here to post?”<p>I want to tell you yes but I have a tendency to think this is something you two need to decide together. You can stress to him how much hope you found here, how it helps you make it through the hard times. Tell him it gives you a place to vent tell him it make you feel better. You should spark his interest. Remember this, he will see your posts and they will stir up feelings just be ready for the emotions. This will be good in the long run but at first it’s hard to swallow. All I can do is share my story so here it goes. <p>I remember reading my W’s posts for the first time, at first they made me upset but after I thought about it for a bit they all made sense, I could understand them. I will tell you this, my wife never asked me to post on the board. The first few days after I had moved back in, I didn’t even think about coming here to post. I remember “day two” of my being out of the house, my W mentioned this site during a phone conversation. I didn’t even give it a second thought. She kept bringing it up in the context of “I read this article on a site called” and would continue to tell me what she had read. <p>I started to think that this site was going to keep her from forgetting what I had done. All I wanted was for her to forget. I almost thought it might keep us from getting our life back to normal. She didn’t give up and she always stood her ground when expressing how she felt and how the site helped her deal with it all. I know it was hard for her to do. I thought her anger towards me was preventing her from forgetting. It wasn’t her anger and she would never forget. I needed to realize this. Once I did I think that is when the healing began. <p>A few days after I had moved back in she started to print out some posts and told me it was only to explain how she felt. I read what she had printed and it wasn’t easy to swallow. The truth was coming to light, I had hurt her so much and there was no undoing what was done. This devastated me so we talked about what she had printed (and talked and talked and talked). It was then I had decided to check out the site. <p>I went to the training center at work and checked it out. My first reason was to see what she was posting. I had asked her member name but she refused to give it to me. She told me she didn’t want to give it to me and never gave me a reason. Now she tells me it was because she knew I would be upset about what she had posted (she was correct in thinking so). Once she thought I could handle it she gave it to me. Actually I had posted a few times myself and had sent her my member ID and told her it. After she saw what I was posting she gave me her ID. Now we are where we are today. Working on our M hard and it not easy but it is full of love and hope. <p>It sounds like you and your H are getting better each day. Good luck to you both and let me know what I can do to help. I am not a professional but I am willing to share my story if it helps.

Thanks again for your help. <p>I was doing good, but now, not so good. We talked tonight, but it did not go well. I'm angry and confused. I drafted a letter to give to my H. Let me know what you think. I haven't given it to him yet. I probably would have, but I thought I would ask for you opinions first. <p>Here goes...<p>"This is how I’m feeling about our conversation tonight..<p>First, because I didn’t know how ****ed up we were after I caught you the first time, and because I didn’t do then what I’m doing now, our marriage wasn’t going to make it. Forget about the things I was doing. It wasn’t enough. Should I be saying sorry?<p>Now that I know how ****ed up we are, and because I’m doing something to fix it, our marriage might have a chance. Might mind you, it depends on how much I do and how I do it. I have to be very careful about how I fix it. I don’t want to get you mad. That’s LBing and that’s not good. (But you get mad, that’s okay. I’ll take it because I’m the one that has to fix this and if that means accepting your anger, then so be it.)<p>Do you see a common thread here? It’s me and my actions that are going to determine how things will end up. Together or apart?<p>How is this fair? I’m not the one who had the Affair. I’m not the one who should be working so hard at fixing this.<p>I feel like I’m under a microscope. Too many mistakes and then that’ll be it. I ****ed up and it’s not going to work.<p>I do not feel there’s remorse on your part. I do not feel that you’re willing to do what you have to do, take what you have to take, to get through this. You are still very defensive and angry. I sense a righteousness in you. Like you knew all along it was hopeless. (Otherwise why would you have an affair?) Now you’re just waiting for it to materialize.<p>I feel as if you are still holding on to her, just in case, once again, it doesn’t work out. And once again, in big part because of that, it’s not going to work out. But that’s not your fault, it’s mine.

This is how I’m feeling. I also feel that unless I’m going to say what you want to hear, then you don’t want to hear it.<p>Well, maybe I should just throw in the towel."

H&S

H&S,<p>I'm really sorry things are not going well right now. Sorry, I couldn't post sooner. <p>Ok, regarding your letter. I think you are expressing some valid feelings on your part. I recommend you review the letter and emphasize that this is how you are currently feeling based on your perception of his remarks/behavior (remember it might not be correct -- he might be not expressing things in a way that you understand). I also think it is important for you to emphasize that you do love him and want to work on your M. This is a key message -- you would not be going through all of this if you did not love him and want to be married to him. You probably cannot say this enough, just like he cannot say enough times how sorry his is for everything.<p>Since you are putting this on paper, you need to be careful that you have worded things so they will not put him on the defensive. Remember that once it is in writing, he will be able to go back and review what you have written over and over again. Just review whatever you write with this in mind. I think sometimes it is a good idea to write things out so that you can write them and he can read them without all the emotion interfering.<p>Good luck. Keep trying -- I remember when I wanted to throw in the towel -- I told my H that at the time. I actually think there is something about Sunday nights that makes things difficult -- that is usually when we had some of our worst times. <p>Keep posting -- I am pulling for you and your H.<p>FHO

FomerHopelessOne,<p>I really do feel like giving up. <p>You know that he has only said I’m sorry a couple of times and that’s when I’ve forced it out of him. I really don’t think he feels any remorse. I think he feels that our M was so bad, that what he did was okay. He says he doesn’t feel this way, but everything else he says makes me think this is the way he feels.<p>It’s like he says what he should say, he reads what he should read, but it doesn’t really mean anything to him.<p>I want to explain what happened this weekend and you see if I’m overreacting. <p>Saturday my H watched the Masters and had a nap. I did my usual thing, taking care of the kids etc. The kids went to bed late and it was rough putting them down. At 10:00, I was frustrated. We talked and I explained that part of it was that I needed “me” time. He didn’t say anything. I let it go.<p>Sunday same routine. He watched the Masters and had a nap. Around 9:00 I was frustrated again. <p>I was on this site, and he came up to see what I was reading. It just happened to be a posting about whether or not to tell the OW’s husband. I asked him what he felt about this. And he said there was no need. I expressed that if I were him, I would want to know. My H then went on and on about this guy. How he plays 60 rounds of golf each year, how he’s been divorced 3 x’s and how each wife cheated on him, etc. I asked if that meant what his W did was okay? He said if the H was interested in his M, he wouldn’t being doing that and that it bothers OW. He asked, very sarcastically, if I wanted to know all he knew about this guy.<p>He’s jealous of OW’s H. and he’s still defending her, protecting her, etc.<p>He suggested that If I felt like I had to do something, maybe we could forward the info. for this site to the OW and that it would be then up to her if she wanted to tell her H and use this site. He said that it’s helping us get through it this time, as we obviously didn’t get through it last time. We didn’t have all this info back then. <p>Do you believe that? We didn’t get through it last time because he kept the A going on and he continued to lie and betray me. But he doesn’t see it like that. <p>I told him we didn’t get through it last time because he wasn’t honest with me and I didn’t know how serious their A was, etc. If I had known, I’d being doing then, what I’m doing now. <p>He says that we talked about marriage counselling then and never did it, he went on an on. I explained about the things we did do. The other things we had going on and how once we came back from our Holiday, I was going to get on it all.<p>Why couldn’t he have initiated something back then? It was up to me. Just like this time.<p>But as usual, I’m at fault and he’s blaming me. From the beginning I said he was not accepting responsibility for his actions. He still isn’t.<p>I asked him he if he knew why I was frustrated. He said he didn’t. I asked him if he remembered what I said last night. He said I said it was because it was rough putting the kids down. I asked him if he remembered what I said about “me” time. This is when things went completely down hill. I could see him tensing up, turning red, etc. He said he did not want to get into this, it would only end up bad, and walked away. That’s when we stopped talking and haven’t since. He’s gone now for two days for work, and I’m not sure how to feel.<p>Thanks again for listening and for all your help.<p>H&S

H&S,<p>Hi. Sorry I didn't post sooner, but have been busy at work this week. <p>It is normal to want to give up. Check out other posts here and you will see those feelings expressed in most of them. I remember so many times thinking my H did not "get it". He wasn't really remorseful, he didn't want to really try, he wasn't willing to go through all the tough work ahead of us to rebuild our M. It is hard not to feel that way. <p>Here is something my H posted recently that I think might help you:<p>What helps me, What helps her, What helps us..... (not in any order)
1.I am not a mind reader, ask her what she is thinking, what she wants, and what she needs.
2.She is not a mind reader, tell her what I am thinking, what I want, and what I need.
3.Don't try to rush her. It only makes me feel worse because I can't make her heal faster.
4.Try my hardest not to LB because it will slow down my W's healing. It will happen just get back up and make some LB$.
5.She will feel bad at times. I need to accept that. I need to be there when she does.
6.Give her what she needs, not what I think she needs (EN questionnaire/talking).
7.Remember things are different now, they will be better then before. I have that to look forward to.
8.Keep my cool, getting mad never once helped me work anything out. If I feel I may be getting worked up I tell her I need a break. I must always come back to the issue....
I am still learning more and more everyday. <p>I think all of these things apply to both parties. Your H is not a mind reader for your feelings/thoughts. You are not a mind reader for your H's thoughts. You need to communicate your needs to him. If you are frustrated with what you think is a lack of domestic support (watching the kids so you can have "you" time), you need to let him know. Make sure that is not in a LBing ways -- i.e., "you never watch the kids so I can have time for me", "you always get all the time you need to sit on you bu** and watch TV and I run around day after day watching the kids", etc. You should talk about what you need -- "I would like some alone time to do a,b,c... and would like for you to watch the kids" or something like that. I know that you might think he should just do this -- this is his responsibility too, right. But, as has been posted many times on this board: do you want to be right, or do you want to be married. It doesn't hurt to ask for this support and to say thank you for it. Yes, he probably should recognize that you need this, but since he doesn't you need to let him know and then when he meets this need let him know you appreciate it. This is just common courtesy -- which you would probably do for a stranger.<p>Remember, that you are to one who has the greater knowledge -- you have read the concepts on this site. Introduce them to him slowly. He needs time to get adjusted to what this has done to your M -- I know he did it, but he is probably still very confused and trying to justify his behavior. Probably because it is too apalling to look in the face. Be patient. Not speaking to each other and withdrawing will not help you M any. If you need a break, take it, but then go back to working on things. It really does take time for the WS to "get it". It probably took my H 4-5 weeks to REALLY "get it".<p>Hang in there, it is tough but you can make it. Perhaps you should try to meet one of your H's ENs, then when he recognizes that you have met it, explain one of your needs and some of the concepts here -- he will probably be more accepting when he sees the benefit of the concepts.<p>I realy feel for you and all the pain you are going through. It does get better -- keep that thought close. <p>FHO