WS on holidays with daughter.... in same city as OM lives. call each other daily, sometimes good talks. yesterday, called her at hotel, her voice & attitude being a bit different. felt that he was around - she confirmed that he was with her. says he helps her in her current state, helps her to relax & discover sights of city. said she didn't feel guilty about A. said she can't continue to live with me if I always make her feel guilty.<p>Wednesday she'll be back. Any ideas, suggestions?

Let me see if I get this right. Your wife goes on vacation with your daughter after the discovery of the affair in the same city as the OM. You call her at the hotel and she is with the OM and she tell you he is showing her the sights of the city and that she does not feel guilty about the affair? You have got to be kidding. She should be working her butt off to regain your trust and show remorse for what she has done.
What do you think her attitude would have been
if the roles were reversed and you put her health at risk by having a sexual affair with another woman and then go on vacation and spend time with
the OW and tell her you did not feel guilty about the affair? I have to ask you why do you feel you have such low self-esteem that you are willing to accept all of this humiliation and disrespect?
It sounds like you may be co-dependent and are willing to accept anything. Her lack of remorse and her continuing to shove your face in the affair would have me looking for an attorney.
I wish you luck because it sounds like you will need a great deal of it.

Wow. Well, one thing I have with my fiance...I know that I cannot "make him pay"...doesn't work that way...but I also know that he has to show some remorse and regret...otherwise, if he doesn't explore his feelings, and let me know he is sorry, how can he or I be sure that it won't happen again?

My initial post sounded maybe a bit too down beat... <p>Reality is, that whenever OM is around, behaviour of WS changes. I feel it in her voice, I feel it by what she says things... When HE is around, she is cocky, hurtful towards me, as if she wants to drive me actively away from her. She said herself - it would be much easier if I simply threw her out.<p>On the other hand, at times she IS really considerate, we talk things over, have really good conversations, and she committs to sorting things out & making M work. after d-day, we even were intimate a couple of times, and amazingly it was some of the best sex we had for a long time. (that was after joint reading of EN list and she wondered whether, after I've learnt of A, I could still function as her sexual partner, fulfill her sexual needs and/or match OMs'...)<p>I beleive the 2 main issues for her currently are the following - any views/input highly appreciated!<p>1. Her guilt is probably a serious issue - whenever she is reminded of it, she finds it unbearable (see also comment made above about 'it would be easier if you threw me out'). she simply can't see herself in such a guilty position for the rest of her life. I think when she says "I don't feel guilty of A" then that's one way of how she copes with it. I do my damn best of not making her feel guilty, but of course every talk we have about M and relationship obviously triggers that - sort of a constant LB looming around, despite me trying to avoid it.<p>2. Power/financial needs: my wife doesnt have a job where she makes any money at all (artist), whilst I make quite a lot. I never made an issue at all out of that, e.g. we always had shared accounts etc and I'm not a bean counter at all. We're in the fortunate position that whatever we want to buy, we buy and never have to look at the bank statement whether we could afford it or not. period. for example, at her/her family's request (living far far away) I purchased for all her brothers & sisters an appartment each. what I realise now, is that despite that my WW felt (feels) under pressure, dominated and powerless nevertheless, and that the power with regard to $$$ is clearly on my side, whether I ignore/ mention/ make use of it or not. in a sense, it's again a constant LB hanging around in the background, even if it's not actively referred to.
W suggested to change job now (says she's fed up by being an artist), learn new skills and find job satisfaction on her own. Of course I enthusiastically support her in this [even if that makes it technically easier for her to leave me??]<p>Bryan - about co-dependency: why should that be bad if you're co-dependent? despite all what happened, I still beleive that my WW is the most wonderful person I've ever met and am likely to meet....<p>[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</p>

a co-dependent personality is construed to be a very unhealty trait according to therapists. Generally a co-dependent personality disorder is a belief that one's entire happiness and well being are totally dependent on another individual. The person is therefore willing to accept any and all forms of humiliation and disrespect as long as the other person does not leave them. It also allows the individual to see the world in rose colored glasses and be unable to understand the reality of their lives and situation. A co-dependent personality is unable to be a complete and full person in and of themselves. A co-dependent personality may also be generally considered to be unattractive to others because of them being overneedy and smothering in their relationship.<p>This is not to be confused with being dependent on each other other for various emotional and physical needs in a healthy relationship. I don't know if this helps you or not.

Point taken, thanks mate.
Trying to auto-diagnose myself (which isn't worth a lot, given the subject-object distortion classical psychoanalysts beleive in..) I nevertheless wouldn't describe myself as co-dependent. the whole thing is still very recent, (d-day plus 3 weeks) and I simply refuse to let go at this point. that's what many people motivate to embark on plan A, including myself.
Only time will tell if WS will throw sand in my eyes and continue A, or, make a real effort. at this point in time, all I can do is trying my best, for my sake, my wife's sake and our daughter's sake. Having said that, envisaging live alone, starting all over again, going through the pains of D, letting everyone know that M is over etc etc IS a VERY frightening prospect. if that's co-dependancy or not and whether that's bad or not I don't know.
But point is well appreciated, will definately watch that space.

You have a bad problem here, she goes away with your child and see's the other man. "Not Good". There is a lack of respect here for your feelings and a judgement issue as well. If my WW took my young son on a trip and met OM at the same time. My reaction would be balistic. You need to re-evaluate your life with her and see an attorny. Start protecting yourself now. Take pictures, hire a PI and record her calls to you. Based on what you have said she is not accontable to you anyway. This is all painful, I realize you still love her ,But, you need to take a step back and rethink your life wth this " ".

OK, Nick. First, disregard the advice of Bryanp and adamS - if you want to salvage your marriage.<p>You have a choice - either be right or be married.<p>The absolute worst thing you can do right now if you want to try to save your marriage is go ballistic and get the lawyers involved.<p>So, before I go on, what do you want to accomplish?<p>WAT

dear nick- i put out a help call for you- you werent getting encouraging advice as far as i was concerned. my .02$ please listen to worth a try- very wise person. has helped me greatly. i think you are doing good. il be back.

Nick,<p>Have you and your W sat down to discuss what the both of you want to do? I think that should be the first step. If she chooses the M then all contact must stop with OM. I suggest you contact a marriage councilor asap to help you even if you decide not to stay together. I also suggest you read books and articles regarding infidelity. She should also read them as well. It will explain the normal feelings both of you are going through. You can read "Shattered Vows" found on findarticles.com. A tremendous help was the website I have listed below dearpeggy.com. I also ordered several books she offered. The thing about affairs is you need to get educated!! <p>You have come to a good place. We will try to help you the best we can. We all feel what you are going through and although we may not be experts by education, we learned the hard way! <p>
sty

nick- you ok??

Guys,<p>This is simply amazing. Here I am, always in control of his life with a sudden, deep and pretty shattering problem. And getting really good help from a bunch of strangers - isn't the internet, this site/forum particular, simply a great thing?<p>All encouraging words warmly appreciated, indeed. Sorry for long lag in answering - am located in Europe (U.K.)<p>Anyhow. Golden thanks to Worthatry, Strongerthanyesterday and particularly Nikko. Read with interest posts of Adam and Bryan, and frankly those two and I seem to agree to disagree. Hip shot reactions now are definately bad, lawyers & co certainly don't help. Anyway, every feedback is appreciated, particularly also feedback to which I tend to disagree, as it helps to get my own position & convictions clear!<p>On the other hand, found posts of Worthatry v. helpful. That's the way I'm thinking at this point in time. I've got A LOT to lose, but potentially A LOT TO WIN. yep chaps, that's the spirit.<p>Currently making myself smart reading all those posts, sites etc about relationships, affairs and the lot. To me, I find this site particularly helpful, even if the approach suggested (plan A, plan B, EN questionnaires etc) do sound a bit mechanical. reality, especially of the human kind, however, is always a shade of grey more complex. Trying to adapt those good hints to reality.<p>I have been seeing a councillor D-day + 1, for the simple reason as I didn't had a f***ing clue what to do - feeling sort of like a deer being caught by headlights. Suggested to WS that she saw him as well - which she did. She wasn't overly convinced by him, so whether we will continue to see him (together) remains unclear. C told me to focus on sleep, eat & excercise. sort of straight forward, but actually does help. devouring now a lovely (albeit fairly hot) lamb vindaloo plus a pint of lager, and feeling much better already. Little joys in life...<p>Thanks to all of you. Very much appreciated.<p>Cheers,
Nick<p>[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</p>

There is nothing wrong with setting boundaries and having a little self respect. Humiliating yourself is no guarantee that your marriage will be saved! <p>Your w may lose respect for you if you continue to let her walk all over you. Every situation is different the info here is not one size fits all. Some do well with a little tough love thrown in.

Nick <p>I feel for you we are in similar positions. I am willing to give my wife a little time to get her head and her Sh%t together. I love her and am crushed. I assume you and I can't do this forever.<p>Speak

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nick123:
<strong>the approach suggested (plan A, plan B, EN questionnaires etc) do sound a bit mechanical.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree.<p>If/when your wife hears about these terms, she'll likely conclude it's a big manipulation scheme to "control" her.<p>I frequently think of recommending to the Harleys to change the term "plan" to something that connotes less proaction and more reaction. Maybe Response A and B? Splitting hairs, perhaps.<p>Regardless, if you think about it, Plan A (not so much Plan B) is rather intuitive. It's premise is that the BS very likely had a role in creating the favorable environment for an affair to occur. So it should follow that the BS needs to fix these bad things within his/her control. It makes no sense to attack the WS, making threats to divorce, etc., if this is what the BS doesn't really want. I, and many others before finding MB, were essentially doing Plan A before we knew that it had a name.<p>So, I'll offer that while the terminology may suggest an overly structured process, I think it was simply a label used to help communicate to us students.<p>WAT