I&#8217;ll make this as brief as possible. We started long-distance (NY and CA). I moved to CA after about 9 mo. after we met (May 94). We married Oct. 7, 1994. My daughter from my 1st M moved here with us just out of rehab and Juvenal hall (mistake). 1st year was hell. My daughter went back to NY to her mom. My wife wanted me to excommunicate myself from my 15 yr. old for whole year due to all the problems and suffering. I secretly reinitiated contact with her again shortly after our 1st yr. Anniversary. Then my daughter tells me an ex-lover is still pining away for me and wishes I was back home. I foolishly call the ex-lover and begin a 4-year, long-distance phone call relationship. Fast forward to Nov. 1999. My W finds out about the phone calls, and the length of time, and flips-out. I had betrayed her, broken her trust, and hurt her deeply. After 3 mo. of hell with her yelling, screaming and threatening to divorce me, she decides she can&#8217;t leave me and we go to counseling for about 3 mo. Fast forward to 2001. I buy our 1st house. I buy her a new minivan. I help her with a Foreign Exch Student program. I think we are doing great. I think she forgave me. I thought we were well into making a new life together. I was wrong.<p>D-Day, March 10th, 2002.
We were in bed talking and going over all of the crap that I have pulled throughout our marriage that has brought pain and frustration to her (seems we always talk about MY faults), then she lays this line on me "Well, I've pulled some bull**** I'll never tell you about, so I guess we're even." Let me tell you, my life changed that moment. I know my wife, and when she says she pulled some "bull****" I know EXACTLY what she means. The first couple weeks after that little announcement she reacted in angry defensiveness to my questions for more details, like when did this start, when did it end, who was it, why did you do it, etc. She kept saying to me, "Why can't we just wipe the slate clean and go forward from here?" or &#8220;I put up with 5 years of your mistakes and never left, can&#8217;t I screw-up just 1 year out of our marriage without you leaving me?&#8221; or &#8220;Why can&#8217;t you just forgive me?&#8221; to which I replied, "I don't even know what you are asking me to forgive you for!" Well it took 2 weeks before she reached the point where she cried and cried about it and said she was so sorry and please don't leave her, that she loves me too much to leave me, and what she went through proved that to her. <p>I went to the 1st counseling session alone. She went to the 2nd one alone. We both have seen the counselor together twice. 5 weeks later, in last night&#8217;s session, I finally got her to tell me about last year&#8217;s affair. She had a 2-3 mo. affair with a mutual friend that she says she saw about once week or every other week. No big emotional thing. Then she says she had a one-nighter with a friend of her family that helped her drive back home from a family reunion in Oregon, and they did it in our house in the garage! Unprotected! I know the mutual friend is clean, but I don&#8217;t know if the one-nighter was, so in my mind she endangered the health of 2 men! How stupid! How callous! How disrespectful to me and her other lover, both! She said it &#8220;just happened&#8221;. She can&#8217;t remember all the details. They may have been drinking. She said he touched her and it went from there. She said it was a weird experience and haphazard intercourse do to the small size of the one-nighter, but you don&#8217;t need full penetration to be exposed to disease, contact is there none-the-less. She regrets both affairs and wishes they never happened. She wants me to forgive her. I feel that her actions are a strong sign that there is a much deeper mental/emotional issue here that goes beyond the affairs. She has said that she has no guilt about what she did at all; that her confession to me was only to make things right in God&#8217;s eyes and to force us off the endless treadmill we were on. I don&#8217;t feel good about that at all. No guilt? I tortured myself those 4 years I was sneaking my phone calls. It killed me inside. And when she found out about it I felt like a tremendous burden had been lifted and I was finally clean of all of my past baggage. I am not getting such feedback from her like that. Though I have seen genuine regret and sorrow, and she is glad that it out in the open now, other aspects of what happened and her attitude about it really concern me.<p>Now that I know this, I am wondering about 1999/2000, which was just after she found out about my EA. There was about 3 months before we entered counseling where she was going out every weekend with her girlfriends, plus, as a stay at home mom, she had all day to do whatever she wanted, so god knows what she did during that period of time! I am beginning to see what I think is a possible sexual-emotional dysfunction of some sort, where she turns to sexual encounters with men to retaliate, to relieve stressful situations in her life, or just to self-validate. So, I am getting ready to ask her about that period of time as well and I am prepared to hear just about anything at this point. <p>Even though we opened up quite a prodigious dialogue after our last counseling session, I am still left with some real concerns. First, I believe that the OM deserves to know about the one-nighter for his own personal health reasons. Second, I need to be fully checked for everything, and so does the W. Third, do I really want to stick it out with her and help her, as she put it, &#8220;Figure out what my problem is so this doesn&#8217;t happen again.&#8221;
I know what her problem is. NO BOUNDARIES! She is constantly putting herself in situations with men where sex could happen if someone doesn&#8217;t say no. And she needs to say no! Hell, she needs to stop getting in compromising situations in the first place! Is her self-esteem so low that constant attention by men is all that makes her feel good about herself as a woman? I don&#8217;t know if I want to put in another 2 or more years just her have go through another &#8220;40&#8217;s&#8221; crisis or marital stress. I am going to go for Individual Counseling and I am going to raise these issues with my counselor and see what he thinks, but as a precautionary measure I am thinking of consulting with a Divorce Atty to see what I may be ultimately facing at the end of all this.<p>Any insights, stories, advice, etc., are most welcome. Please respond!<p>Thank you.

BlindSided - your story really took me through some emotional ups and downs. Let me start by saying how sorry I am that you are going through this now, and that I understand the horrible range of emotions you are, and will be, feeling. In another post I read today someone referred to the recovery process as being two steps forward, one step back - and I find that to be very true.<p>So, I wanted to also let you know that I can recognize and understand what your WS did as well, because it's really what I have wanted to do at times. I am the BS in my relationship (oddly enough, WH and I met long distance, NJ to CA, he moved out here after 9 months in 95). He has carried on several long distance EA via the computer, the most recent one being discovered on 4/1/02, so I am pretty well shattered at this point. In my anger, rage, resentment, need to hurt him moods, I have really wanted to have an affair to pay him back, make him suffer the way I have, and to bolster and validate my own self-esteem. Even though intellectually I *know* that I did not cause him to have an affair, emotionally I have a tremendous need to be validated as worthy, attractive, and interesting to other men.<p>I guess the big difference here is that I have not acted on these thoughts, and I am so sorry your wife has done so. As you're both finding out, it really solves nothing, and makes everything much worse.<p>I don't have any advice, because God knows I am a vascillating wreck of a human being these days. But I do have a shoulder, and this is a very good group of listeners, all of whom know your pain. If you decide this is a marriage you want to continue, it's hard work. I am trusting those who have gone before me that it gets better, and it's worth it!

Blind Sided,
Your screen name says it all. That is just how I felt when I found out.
I just want to welcome you here to MB and I suggest you start educating yourself here on this web site and by reading books like "His Needs Her Needs".
Something you need to realise first off is that your old relationship that you had is gone, over, history, capput. I know that seems harsh but its true. What you have to do is begin to change things about you that helped cause the brakedown in your marriage that allowed infidelity to creep in in the first place.
The good news is, not only is it possable, you can find that the new relationship that you build can be better, stronger and much more rewarding. I know, I am living proof.
I also understand your desire to know everything and you should. Its like looking at a big painting with pieces cut out. It can drive you nuts trying to imagine what those missing pieces looked like. More times than not, the true picture is better than you imagined it to be thus causing you undue grief. With the help of your counselor I think you can explaine this to your wife. Understand though, the truth sometimes hurts but it is better to just get it all out and deal with it now than wait and keep finding little pieces to that picture over a long period of time which will only slow the recovery process. Read about "Radical Honesty" on this web site, this should also help.
Hang in there my friend, you are not alone. Come here often to vent, cry, ask questions.....<p>And just one more thing........ Pray<p>God Bless, SH

Stillhurts and KS41<p>Thank you for your feedback. Right now I am seething in anger! I don't want even want to go home! She disclosed everything(?) at the counselors on 4/16, and yes, it was not as bad as I had originally imagined, BUT, the audacity of her F***ing a man in OUR HOUSE while I AM HOME IN THE BEDROOM SLEEPING is really hitting me extremely hard today. Can you just imagine the gall?! The complete lack of respect! The complete disregard for my health! She says these affairs were not revenge, that she was doing all kinds of strange stuff last year (got a tattoo without telling me, starting smoking weed again, etc.), that part of it may have been that she turned 40 and was having a hard with that and not feeling attractive, or that she was just unhappy and was looking for something to fill the void, or that she was just out to have a footloose and carefree goodtime! She says she never even considered leaving me, but her actions say that she probably thought I was not going to be around much longer. <p>The family friend from Oregon actually lives with her mom. Now I feel like I can't go there. The mutual friend lives a mile or less away in the same housing community and his daughter and her daughter go to the same school and they each take turns with drop-offs and pick-ups (an arrangement that was made due to them both going to an out-of-district school), so the OM will not disappear completely out of the picture, ever, as far as I can see. I bet the OM has no clue about the one-nighter and if he found out he would be absolute livid! That news may very well take him out of the picture by his own volition. Should I force her to tell him? If she refuses, should I tell him? <p>I feel like I have to hold back so much out of fear that if I show just how angry I am, she will stop coming forth with the information I need to know. I now need to know if there was any sexual encounters prior to 2001. I do not take the exposure risk lightly and I am surprised that she is either that stupid or not concerned about it. When I asked if she had protected sex with the one-nighter and she said no, I couldn't believe it. She said, "I asked him to use a condom but he didn't." just like some ignorant teenager. If the guy doesn't put on a rubber after she asked for it, then she should stop all activity right then and there! Does she have absolutely no control? No judgement? No commonsense? No self-respect? I feel like I am going to blow a gasket! <p>Right now at this moment I can't even imagine getting over this and working through it with her to stay together. I pray for guidance, wisdom, strength, patience, understanding, and forgiveness. There will pain if I stay and pain if I go, so no matter what the outcome, I know that I will need intensive counseling to heal myself. I may be a frequent visitor, so keep watching for me and give me your words of solace and support.

<<I feel like I have to hold back so much out of fear that if I show just how angry I am, she will stop coming forth with the information I need to know.>><p>Oh boy this is so hard for me - and I get wrapped up in the "it's not fair that I can't be angry 'cuz then it'll scare him away" stuff. I have become angry once through this, really angry, turning over furniture angry, and he said he just did not feel safe telling me things if that's how I was going to react. Catch-22 for me, and the result is I am now repressing the anger, which is not going to help the healing process. Maybe it's time for Tae-Bo.<p><<Right now at this moment I can't even imagine getting over this and working through it with her to stay together. >>
I have some very good moments where I think we'll get through this and come out better. But almost every day I have that same thought you are having, followed by wondering why exactly I'm working so hard. I think this weekend I'll make a list of pro's and con's on rebuilding the marriage so I can refer back to it. <p>Hope you make it through the weekend okay! Try not to turn over any furniture (it doesn't help <g&gt [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] .

KS41<p>Yes, what bugged me the most about this whole process is that I am expected to be considerate of her feelings ahead of mine! It took 5 weeks to get out the details of the time frame and the names involved. Those 5 weeks of not knowing anything drove me insane! Now that we have it out in the open and can discuss it, I have even more questions about 2001, and then I want to go back even further in time to see if this is a pattern. <p>My throat is clentched from holding back the strong emotional outbursts I'd love to have. I want to yell and scream! I want to blast to her into orbit (verbally). She has no idea what I go through on a daily basis to keep myself together and try to collect my thoughts so I can be half-way decent when I come home. When I mentioned at the counseling session that I had to detach myself to keep from suffering so much, she exclaimed, "I knew it! He's leaving me!" Geez, I would've already been gone if I was so bent on leaving! <p>What kills me is the way the W talks about our "future" when I don't even know if there is one yet! Everytime I act okay (usually right after a counseling session and at least the day after) it appears she starts to feel comfortable again, almost as if I am accepting what happened and have decided to stay forever. When she does this I start to get sick to my stomach again and act distant, or I get silently angry, or I say not-so-nice things, or I just plain act indifferent to what she is saying. I'm sorry, but right now I can't talk about "our future". I am consumed with what's happening to me today!<p>And don't even get me started with her ideas of romantic getaway weekends! THAT is the furthest thing from my mind right now! Although, strangely enough, we have been quite active sexually in the last few weeks and I don't know why I feel so needy that way lately. Is my desire driven by some primitive primordal urge to "reclaim" my woman by doing her every which way til next Sunday? Am I "competing" with the OM? I haven't had multi-session nights with her in years, and, I have never lasted as long before orgasm (I find myself averaging between 15-30 min. now). Is it because of the detachment? Is it because I am not passionately in love? <p>Sometimes when we are having sex (it's not making love right now, at least not for me) I am wondering if the OM did this to her or that to her? Am I really her favorite lover? Did he do anything more for her that I haven't done for her? Do I dare ask? Sometimes I think I am pulling out all the stoppers so she will miss me even more when I go and regret cheating on me and losing me over a stupid goodtime! But even after these sessions I look at her almost in disgust when I realize once again she did this with other men last year! Then I feel like crap again. Not special to her at all. Is the physical part of the affair as important to woman as it is to a man? Do men have a harder time with the physical aspect of an affair than do women? Do women focus more on the emotional part of an affair than do men?<p>NEED INPUT!! (Short Circuit)

I would say maybe she never got over your 4 years you lied to and deceived her and she did this to retaliate against you. Whether she did in with that main goal in mind or not is debatable. I would be careful with being too judgemental... you look at her with disgust, yet you are so jealous of what happened with her and OM you can barely see straight. My H has been wanting a lot of sex with me, and I am positive he goes thru the range of emotions you just described, because he's told me so. So your feelings are normal, but you need to also step back and look at the big picture. You deceived her emotionally for 4 years, in the early years of your marriage to boot. Why did you need to continue contact with this person for so long? What did you get from it? and what do you think it did to build your marriage up to where your wife felt like she truly meant something to you? Like she was your true love, and you wouldn't do the same to her in a heart beat?<p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: findingmywayback ]</p>

Blind Sided,
What you are feeling is exactly what I went through. When reading your last post it sounded like I could have written the same thing.
This is normal and it is going to take time, patience and effort on your part to recover from this. I know it dosen't seem fair at all right now but in time things seem to even out.
I remember I had to just get away by myself sometimes and yell, scream and yes cry. That was somthing I never did before, but it helped and in the first 6 months or so after d-day, I must have cryed buckets.
I encourage you to not give up hope. It sounds as if your wife is willing to work with you and that is a good start. Many here don't have that going for them.
You both need to educate yourselves more so that you can see that what you both are feeling is not unique. I have not read it but many here highly recomend the book "Torn Asunder". Books like this will help you emensly.
Understand that you are going to be on the emotional rollercoaster ride of your life. Not to scare you but just so you know, it took me a good year after d-day of going over and over all the crap that went on in the A and what could have gone on before I could finally let it go and begine recovery. Fortunatly for you you have found this web site early on which I did not. Had I, I think recovery could have happend sooner so you are in a good place. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
I'm glad to hear that you are praying because there is power in prayer and that REALLY helped me. I encourage you to pray WITH your wife for guidance, wisdom, strength, patience, understanding, and forgiveness. You said that she didn't feel guilt. Watch out its comeing. She is trying to focus on your healing and putting herself last right now.
Hang in there my friend, I'm praying for you now.<p>Still Hurts

FindingMyWayBack:<p>Your points are well taken, but, adding the sexual dimension to an affair brings it to another level. I have read many accounts where people have had fairly long-term EA's only to find that they could not cross that sacred sexual boundary when they actually had the opportunity to do so because those people felt that the sexual involvement was a deeper and final commitment to the affair, and on some level, a deeper betrayal; so in my mind, though the feelings of betrayal and broken trust may be the same, it is still different. Yes, I imagine she went crazy thinking about all the conversations I had, but at least she doesn't even have to wrestle with the images of me going hot and heavy with another lover. Those images are haunting and disturbing and I imagine that they take awhile to go away, if ever. <p>Believe me, I wish she only had an EA to disclose to me! That would've been a wake-up call enough! But the choices of the men (the friend of her family in Oregon that actually lives with her mom, and the mutual friend here at home whose daughter goes to school with her daughter and they take turns picking-up and dropping-off the kids, plus, he's the middle daughter's private-lesson art teacher to boot!) tells me she either had complete disregard for the aftermath or she had absolutely zero respect for me (i.e. - the OM won't ever be totally out of the picture, unprotected sex, and sex in the house with me there at the same time), so this definitely takes it up a couple notches. <p>There is no possibility that my former EA will ever cross paths with us. My EA has no connection to my family or friends, back home or here. And, there is no healh risk involved. I also believe that each act should be judged alone for what it is. My W has already tried to lay the guilt trip on me about my EA to make me feel like we are even-steven now, but this isn't about trading wrong for wrong. She needs to look at her decisions and actions in this time and place and so do I. A marriage shouldn't be a contest of one-upmanship, else the retaliation cycle never ends!<p>Yes, knowing that I did her wrong has tempered my outlook on the whole thing enough where I am at least willing to look at this and see if I have the personal wherewithal to understand, forgive, and heal. But here's the kicker for me as I ramble thoughts through my head about this: If I had no such past transgressions to weigh into the fray, would I even consider working through this at all? If I had actually caught her redhanded while the affair was active would I be as reflective about it as I am now, or would I have left immediately? I think if either of those conditions existed my emotional response would have been 10 times what it is now, though this is by no means any picnic!<p>Right now any attempt my W makes at throwing my garbage at me when I am expressing what I am going through right now with her PA's is just her sad attempt to justify what she did, cloud the current issues, and make me stuff my feelings inside. Maybe months from now I will look back on this differently than I do now, but today this is my reality as I see it.<p>You are right about one thing though, she never really forgave me, even though we had counseling and I thought we were ontrack together and it was behind us, she still carried the hurt and lack of trust, so she harbored resentment. If only we had sought out a step-by-step program to get through my EA together and rebuild our relationship, we may have actually attained the type of relationship that would have kept her from even considering an A in the first place. At least I am glad that I found this now. If I didn't have this forum to express myself in I would be going insane!<p>Keep those replies coming! They really help!<p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]<p>[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</p>

dear blindsided- please forgive me in advance, this may be a little harsh. what gives you the right to think her indescretion was any worse than the 4 years you emotionally decieved her. a little presumptious dont ya think.<p>you are of course looking at this from the mans perspective, the physical is much worse than the emotional. from a womans perspective-we usually find the emotional much worse than the physical. she lost years of her life to not knowing what was really going on. she probably couldnt believe anything from that time. to her it was all a lie. you have both hurt each other in the most dammaging way possible. she may have done it on purpose, or she may have done it because you moved on and thought everything was peachy- but for her it wasnt. you seem to have a its no big deal because i didnt sleep with her attitude. you betrayed her trust and faith in you and she didnt get over it. you need to figure out what needs you were not fufilling and work on those.

Nikko,<p>Thank you for the wake-up. Please understand that this is still fresh to me so my emotions are all over the place. I can't help but to be judgmental right now. Each of us has our own set of values with which we judge all things in life. Just because, in my reality, the EA is less of an "evil", so to speak, I realize that the emotional impact on my W was equal to what I am feeling now. I must tell you though, part of my opinion on this, and part of why this shocked me so much, is because for over 7 years I have heard the W tell me that she would not tolerate SEXUAL infidelity from me, regardless of the reason or situation. Even after the discovery of my EA she reiterated that had it gone to the sexual level she would not even have considered working things out with me. So, a lot of my trust in her sexual fidelity was based on her own feelings about it. She has told me numerous times that if I ever crossed the physical line with anyone, I should just get my stuff out of the house and not even bother trying to discuss it, it would be over, period. The only decency and self-respect I had left after my EA was revealed came from knowing that I had not been inappropiate (again, physically) with anyone since we have been together. I figured if she felt that strongly about outside sexual entanglements that I would not have to worry about her doing that to me. So, now that she has broken one of the hard and fast golden rules that she established for us since the very beginning, she wants to redefine, soften, or just eliminate the law that she laid down and ingrained in my head for so long. <p>I completely understand where you are coming from and appreciate the points that you have made. Like I said, I may see this completely differently 6-12 mos from now. But, if I hold back ANY of my feelings at this point in time, right or wrong, I will not get over this. If I am to temper my feelings, hold back my anger, withold my judgment, and stuff the pain I am in just because I had a past transgression, I will not get through this. I am using these forums to vent everything I feel so as to not completely "blow away" my W when I get home. Weekends are especially difficult. If I am going to spend more time trying to be "balanced" and "fair" than I am processing through all of my garbage, this will take forever and I don't know if I will ever feel completely satisfied. Besides, one of our problems has been that I hold back too much of my thoughts and emotions from her. She said she wants all of me; my anger, my pain, my sadness, my joy, my successes, my humor, my love, etc. She said she wants to know my every thought; the good, the bad and the ugly. So please forgive me if I sound so one-sided and so male egoed on this. From what I have read in this forum and others, men and women have similar issues in dealing affairs, but they are also very different on where their focus lies and how they process through it. It is very interesting for me to see the range of stories and responses from both sexes. In many ways the same, in many ways different. Please keep the feedback coming. I can take critcism and support. I am here to learn and grow and to get through this. Hopefully, with all of your support and encouragement, I may be able to salvage my marriage.<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]<p>[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</p>

BlindSided, I wish I could vent like you. I have posted a few times around here, but mostly just lurk and try to "learn" from what others write. This is all very new to me, and I am still going through the embarrassment phase. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I just felt like I wanted to respond to you and Nikko, because I am female and I happen to feel that "crossing the sexual line" is the worst thing that could happen. I am still trying to get over the thoughts, pictures in my mind, etc. I feel that I could be dealing better with this, if it was not a PA. But I haven't had to deal with an EA, so that's just my thoughts, not experience.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Blind Sided:<strong>" have heard the W tell me that she would not tolerate SEXUAL infidelity from me, regardless of the reason or situation. Even after the discovery of my EA she reiterated that had it gone to the sexual level she would not even have considered working things out with me. So, a lot of my trust in her sexual fidelity was based on her own feelings about it. She has told me numerous times that if I ever crossed the physical line with anyone, I should just get my stuff out of the house and not even bother trying to discuss it, it would be over, period. The only decency and self-respect I had left after my EA was revealed came from knowing that I had not been inappropiate (again, physically) with anyone since we have been together. I figured if she felt that strongly about outside sexual entanglements that I would not have to worry about her doing that to me. So, now that she has broken one of the hard and fast golden rules that she established for us since the very beginning, she wants to redefine, soften, or just eliminate the law that she laid down and ingrained in my head for so long"</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Your point is well taken. I think her hypocrisy is very characteristic of many WSs.<p>I'm a divorced father of two girls (I have sole physical custody) and before I discovered that my xW had multiple A's, she had given me that same line that your W gave you that if I ever got sexually involved with another woman that I would be out the door and our M would be over. My rage was such when I discovered what hypocritical person I was married to that I came very close to killing her, but thankfully the image of my girls were like a bucket of cold water that not only brought me back to reality but made me realized that I had to be strong not only for myself but for them as well.<p>Now that I am single and dating, one the things I look for in a woman are blanket statements like "I think people that are unfaithful are unforgivable" or "why was that other woman looking at you for?". In other words, self-righteousness and jealousy, are the biggest red flags I keep an eye for and when I find one or both in a woman, I don't walk away from her, I run like hell away from her [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Joe

blindsided-you never said you were venting in earlier posts-i was under the ussumption that this was the stance you were taking with your wife. im sorry, i have vented too-you might want to add its a vent next time.<p>i just see so many people get caught up in the im right their wrong thing and lose their marriage over it. if venting is your way of dealing with this-vent away. we will all be here.<p>as for the laws your wife layed down, my husband use to say things to the effect of- that is not what married people do, refering to going to clubs or out with friends, and many other things like this. if i had only known we had two different sets of rules, i might have been better at playing the game. my last 10 years have been a lie and im still finding things out that i didnt know about. i also use to firmly believe-if you ever cheat on me or act inapropiately, you will be gone so fast your head will spin-well that hasnt exactly happened either, im still hear trying to rebuild our marriage.<p>be strong and work through it- its a long road, with lots of detours.

blind sided,<p>I sure agree that it is not fair that *you* are expected to be the one to be considerate and tippy-toe around her hurt little feelings [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You might want to print out this thread and hand it to her, or leave it for her to read at a time when you're not around. It might open her eyes a little.<p>I also highly recommend *After The Affair* by Dr. Janis Spring. You can read it first and then, if/when things cool down a bit between you, you can sit down and go over it together.<p>Oh, and if she doesn't like dealing with your anger? Maybe you could inform her that yes, actions like hers destroy marriages and enrage spouses. That's why people aren't supposed to do stuff like that. That's why cheating is a BAD thing, not a GOOD thing.<p>She wanted to play, now she's getting the bill. If she decides now that the price was too high, that's tough. Shoulda thought about that first. <p>It's time for her to pay up. And I'll bet you don't take American Express *or* Visa.<p>Psycho_B***h

All,<p>God, I so much appreciate this forum and the feedback I am getting from it. I'll take Nikko's suggestion and say I am venting when I am venting.<p>Now, for today. Weekends are very very hard for me. Seems that EVRYTHING reminds me of the affairs; songs, magazines, movies (have you seen the ads for Unfaithful w/Richard Gere?), pictures, talking about anything from last year that occured during that timeframe; EVERYTHING! <p>As bad as I feel, we still are intimate, and in some ways, on the physical level only, it's actually better than before, but my heart is not in it for her as it was before. Plus, you would think that I would actually feel a little better after we have had a session in the bedroom, but just the opposite is true. In some ways I actually feel worse than I did before. (Anyone else have similar feelings?) Like Saturday morning for instance, we had a nice "workout" before we went out and did some running around about town, and I suddenly say to her, "Where was I when you f***ed the one-nighter in the garage?", she looks at me in astonishment and said, "Damn, that came out of the blue! What are you trying to do, ruin my day after we had such a good time this morning?" Well, it's not out of the blue for me! I am not sure if there are 3 straight minutes in a given day where I can actually say that I am NOT thinking about all of this! Turns out I was indeed in bed at the time, which really really galls me. I told her, "You know, you must have had absolutely ZERO respect for me! That one-nighter in our house with me home, and unprotected to boot, was worse than the 3 months you spent with the OM!" NO RESPONSE. She does't know what to say. Either she is so ashamed of it or she doesn't want to tell me that, yes, at that time she really didn't have any respect for me at all, not even enough to refuse to do that in our own home. Man, why didn't you just kick me in the balls! At least THAT PAIN goes away in a day or two! Am I right to be more concerned about that particular incident than I am about the 3 months? That one time episode was more telling to me about where her head was at and how she felt about me than the short-term affair. Actually, she cheated on the OM and me at the same time! Blows me away when I think about it! Boy, when she decides to be bad she really does a good job of it! (some of that was venting, by the way, but please do answer my concerns if so inclined!)<p>Anyway, I told her I can never find a good time to talk. There is always something going on at the house, either with the 3 girls, or company, or family, or some other thing, so if I happen to get a moment alone in the car to ask some questions, that's what I'll do. If we only spend 1 hour a week talking at the counselor's office we will never finish this! <p>I still tell her I love her, and I do, but you know that really special "In Love" love? It's gone. At least right now it is. I've been looking at the all the questionaires on this website and it's making me look at us as a couple in a more objective way. My preliminary results didn't look too good. It seems we have very little that we actually share together in life, but I am sure we could work on growing together and improving that. And you know, it doesn't help me at all when she says things like, "I'll never do that again! (the one nighter, no condom) then pause and say,"I think." Or, she said, "I think we are back on-track again. I can probably go another 7-8 years without doing that again." <p>Umm, these are NOT good things to say to me right now! I take no comfort in thinking we are good to go for another 7-8 years! I don't want to go through this again! If that's where her head is at, I'll take the divorce now and cut my losses while am a little ahead of the game! Thank you very much! <p>And I hope she is not trying to be funny about this, because right now nothing like that is even remotely funny to me at all! Which is another thing I miss about her and I. We used to joke all the time about her doing something special to the Mgr of a store to get something free, or, because she works as a housecleaner, I would say something like, "So, did you make the neighbor? Ooops, I mean did you make the bed?" and she would joke with me about doing favors for my female Mgr at work to get promoted, etc. It was all playful banter until this happened. Now, nothing's a joke. This PA has made it all too real of a possiblity! I don't know if that feeling will go away. When the counselor asked he could hug my wife, I almost laughed! In my head I'm like, "Sure, she'd probably do you too if she had the chance!" So nothing's funny that even remotely has to do with infidelity. I am super sensitive about it now. <p>Well, I could go on, but I will stop here. The only reason I am online is because the W is off with relatives on short outing (see what I mean?). I'll check back tomorrow from work. I am looking forward to everyone's responses. Thanks again.<p>[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</p>

TO STRAY CAT:<p>PLEASE READ MY POSTING TO YOU IN YOUR TOPIC:<p>BIGGEST PROBLEM: THE SEX<p>Thanks again for sharing your feelings on affairs that are sexual versus emotional. I know I am not the only one that feels that way and it's good to hear from those that share the same feeling. If I had posted our complete history together since we met in 1993, perhaps what she did and my reaction to it would be more understandable, but I tried to be as brief in our history as possible and hit the key points up to now. But, keep coming back, there will be more to follow!

D-Day was 3/10/02. I weighed 232. Today I weighed 216. My stomach is still in turmoil almost 24 hrs a day. I'm drinking lots of water and green tea to keep the stomach pain at a minimum. The clenching in my throat is still there too. I find it difficult to eat, and when I do, the smallest of portions makes me feel like I just pigged-out at an all-you-eat buffet. Now, mind you, I need to lose the weight, but I wish that this wasn't the method by which it is happening!<p>Is this typical after an A is revealed?
Is there anything that will calm my stomach?

Hey BlindSided - I was thinking about you this weekend and wondering how things were going for you since I didn't have time to check the board. Sounds like a mixed bag; I am quite envious that you can actually vent the way you do. I feel weird doing so (see umpteen other posts I have made about repression of anger being my weapon of choice).<p>It doesn't seem clear to me that you and WS are making time to be together if your only chance to discuss things is in the car. I had a tendency to set us up for this kind of scenario so I could get in and get out quick, without realizing what I was doing. You really need to put other things aside to be able to have some uninterupted time. During the first two weeks after D-Day for me, I needed to say "okay, let's talk about this from 5:00 - 6:00 today." I also have a tendency to bleed the horrible heart-wrenching relationship discussions into what are supposed to be positive, recreational companionship experiences. Not good, but not easy to avoid when sometimes it's all I think about.<p>Re: are women more concerned about the emotional? I sure am - but we have an open relationships sexually, so it's always the honesty and emotional commitment which carries the biggest whammy for me, not the actual sex. Of course, I can say that because he was not involved in a PA - I suspect my tune might be different otherwise, but hopefully I'll never know.<p>Re: weight loss and stomach pain - yeah, I lost 6 lbs. the first week after D-Day. Unfortunately, now that things are getting better, it seems to be coming back! You might want to try ginger tea, it is my old stand-by for upset stomach.<p>Take care of yourself!

KS41<p>Thank you so much for checking in on me. I have been checking my topic all day and have been "hungry" for feedback and support. Sometimes the need to interact with other betrayed partners is so great I wish I could "live chat" at work, but that service is blocked, so I depend on this forum. What really complicates the communication process for us, especially when we are alone (no counselor), is that she is still dealing with unresolved issues from my EA. So, when I say something like, "What were you thinking? Why didn't you come to me and tell me that we were not doing well and that you were so unhappy?", she'll come back with, "Well, why didn't you tell me?". OKAY. So it's like tit-for-tat. She wants to trade her wrongs for my wrongs. If she wants to work off of my still lingering guilt she will win the battle but lose the war. One time (about 3 weeks after D-Day) she said to me while we were in bed and she was crying, "If you forgive me, I'll forgive you." WOW. That means that she was unwilling or unable to forgive me until after she did this? She also has told me that late last year she was just starting to trust me again (normal), but in the context of her PA having ended in the last quarter of last year, again I ask, "She wasn't willing to trust me until after she broke my trust as well?". About a week or so after D-Day I told her that I had all kinds of respect and admiration for her for staying with me and getting past (so I thought) my EA, and that I had been trying so hard to make it up to her, but now that's changed (this was before I even knew anything about the PA's, I just knew an A, or A's, had happened). If I had lost respect for her back then, imagine how much lower my opinion dropped after she revealed the unprotected one-nighter in our home while I was in bed sleeping!? NO F***ing EXCUSES!! (Pardon the Pun.) That one kills me completely!<p>Anyway, communicating with her one to one has not proved to be very productive. When I am calm and in a listening mode, she is feeling scared and uncomfortable and vague. When she is pissed at me, she'll blast me with information. As a matter of fact, she was pissed at me at the counselor's office when she decided that she was ready to tell me the time frame and name(s) of the PA's. If she has to be in anger to tell me things, it's like slinging arrows at me and using the information as weapons to get back at me for not "getting over it". She said she did not consciously do this for revenge, but, if it wasn't done in revenge back then, she sure seems to be using it as a revenge tool now and it hurts! <p>Quite honestly, at least today, I don't know how I am going to conquer this when the 2 men she chose are both men that will not go away from our lives. The 3-4 month OM's daughter and my Step-Daughter are best friends, and I mean, BEST FRIENDS. They go to the same school, they write to each other, talk on the phone, have sleepovers, etc. My W and the OM take turns with morning and afternoon drop-offs and pick-ups. The OM is also the middle Step-Daughter's art instructor. He lives only a mile away. We live in a city of only 63,000. My W still uses OM as a personal reference on her job applications (yeah, he better give her a good recommendation!). So unfortunately, he will be around. Next, the 1-nighter OM. He lives with my W's family in Oregon and has for years. He is not going away! Guns to the left of me! Guns to the right! Guns in front of me (the W)! I feel surrounded! She must have really planned on me not being around at all, then changed her mind, or her heart, or both. I can't imagine another thought process! At this point I AM LOOKING FOR A SIGN FROM GOD TO STAY IN THIS AND WORK THROUGH IT. I need to pray more. I am not praying like I should. I want Him to give me direction and answers, but I am not actively seeking or listening to Him. That I can change.<p>I don't want to stay only out of fear of being divorced and alone. I don't want to stay only because I will miss the house and all we built and have together. I don't want to stay just to spare the step-children's feelings. And I don't want to stay if I am not in love; I can go live with another "friend" if that's all we are reduced to. If the W and I don't have it happening, all the rest means nothing! Right now I am afraid to show her any sign that I am happy. I don't want her to be comfortable just yet, because I am in absolute misery! Maybe the reason we are stuck is because I have not committed myself to staying and trying to work this out all the way. I still feel like checking out and cutting my losses. I plan on talking to a Divorce Atty next week or so just to be armed with the knowledge of what I would be facing should we go the final step. I want to remove the fear of THAT unknown before I go on. I've read that many have done this and that the knowledge made them feel better, and that ultimately, they did not end up in divorce afterall! I don't know. I am confused. I am still undecided. The sexual nature of both PA's is absolutely gut-wretching to me! Sometimes it still feels unreal, like I am still in shock. Ah, but it is all too real and it won't go away! I must face it, whether I go off on my own or stay in the M. GOD HELP ME!!!!<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</p>