I already know the answer to this question, but here's what happened that made me post.<p>This AM, after some great SF, my WW cried and said she isn't sure that I'll be really different from now on, that I won't just eventually revert to my old, non-listening, closed-off self from before. Now, that may have been her perception of what I was like during her A, but we all know her attention was divided to start with, and though I knew there was something wrong with our R, I sure as heck didn't know what it was... ...for 11 years!<p>I was tempted to say: "W, let's come to somme agreement on this. Either we agree that we're both on trial, or neither of us is." <p>Would this be a LB? Her remark this am sure was for ME, but I'm pages ahead of my W (frankly) on the road to recovery here, and since I'm in Plan A (and know it), maybe I should just "take it" when she says hurtful things like that to me? <p>Comments?

yep... a LB...<p>Instead try to appraoch it from the perpsective of The Policy of Radical Honesty.<p>Jim/NSR

Jim:<p>Good answer! Actually, when you think about the delicacy of the situation a WS is in (not knowing or subscribing to the MB "rules"), is it reasonable to assume that, for a time, rules like that don't apply? What I mean is, if she isn't on the same page as me, shouldn't I "just take it," knowing that I'm working on myself and waiting for her to wake up to work on herself before we can truly "recover?"<p>Thanks for the input! I really relish this kind of dialog right now. Things are going well, but we're in a kind of transition phase because W has just started to realize the need for no contact, and yet I'm starting to feel my love units diminishing in my account for her. Am hoping that I can remain patient, and think in truth that I can (because she is a terrific person and I do love her that much!), but I still wonder if it'll diminish before she "comes around" and we can truly, truly call ourselves "in recovery."<p>warmest regards,

What about saying to her: "I understand your fear, I too fear that you will go back to OM"?<p>Joe

Dear 2long,
From a woman's POV - I have also cried after great sex with my H during this past year that we have been having problems (my H has had TWO EA's and is now in counsellin). When I have cried at that moment, it's because I had loved my H while I was making love to him, and afterwards I feel how vulnerable I am again, that I'm now loving this man again - I think, your wife has, by crying, revealed to you that you are still there in her heart, but when a woman loves, she gives, and when she gives, she needs to receive in return. She's telling you her biggest emotional need is to be listened to and to have her thoughts and feelings taken into consideration.<p>My antennae went haywire when I read your post, b/c I'm reading Mars and Venus Together Forever by John Gray - and he says women need to be listened to - he says men who don't read relationship books get into his books when they realize that he isn't asking men to be more female - he understands how men work - he helps men meet their women's emotional needs - helps them understand why women talk and how easy it is to listen - I like his chapter for men where he gives them instructions on "How to Dodge and Dive" - it's OK to dodge and dive so you don't end up fighting with a woman - how to dodge and dive and actually be listening - it's GREAT!<p>What I hear your wife saying is "your listening deposits lots of love units in my love bank "- this is what you want - part of your plan A - just reassure her that you are listening to her and that you love her so much - it might blow her mind if you read Gray's book and show it to her, to prove that you are trying to learn new skills. You could be an expert at this real fast!!<p>Wish my H was interested in listening!
Again, you guys give me hope!<p>Good luck!<p>Odile

Thanks, Odile. I really do think I am working on listening more to what she's saying, because I did ask her that time why she was crying, because usually she doesn't volunteer anything.<p>So, when she asked, I did my best to reassure her that I'm never going to be the same person I was before D-day. And to focus that on the positive things I bring to our R, not emphasizing the fact that Plan A is about me and as much intended for me to survive even if the M does not as it is for her to be able to fall in love with me again. <p>I actually have a tough time with the fact that Plan A, and this website to some degree for that matter, is not "completely shared" with the WS (because you don't want to give the WS anything to use against you if they're not willing to end their A). This because honesty and openness is my top EN, so I feel funny wanting complete frankness from her (still dont' have that) when I'm not showing her everything I'm doing or saying here.<p>Make sense?

Yes, it does make sense. I also am not ready for my H to see everything I say, or have said, on this site, because I don't think he's ready to hear it yet - I'm afraid he would use things against me as well. But there are two posters here, FormerHopelessOne and Love_Her_Madly who have given me a lot of hope. Their situation was much like mine is and now both post here and are well ahead in recovering their M - his tag says it all. FHO has been one of the people to really help me keep my head and stay focused on the positive things, instead of letting my anxiety run me and make me do wild and crazy, non constructive things.<p>Radical honesty is something I brought to my M to begin with and its where I hope to get with my WH someday, but I'm accepting this will take time - its still my goal, though.<p>You sound like you're doing the right kind of loving things with your wife - even if she hasn't said so, I'm sure she's noticed, it's just that she's probably watching your changes over time, too - perhaps you could ask her to let you know when you do something she likes. This is a tactic I am using with my H, although it's not something he has asked of me - Estes49 told me to conduct a science experiment on my H and try to meet each one of the ENs and watch his reaction. Admiration and loving words of appreciation got a favourable response, so I have made it my policy to honestly try to tell him one good thing about himself that I like and/or appreciate every day as an act of love. He glows every time I do this and I've done it every day for the past 4 weeks - part of why the atmosphere between us is improving. Maybe you can ask your wife to give you the feedback you need to let you know when you do something she likes. If she starts to participate in this way, it well help her feel better about you, too - although I'm angry at my H and don't trust him, there are still a lot of good things about him that were attractive to me in the first place. Doing this has helped keep those good things about him to the fore to balance the bad and my insecurity.<p>Perhaps if you do the same with her, this will help you to see her good qualities as well. I remember reading a parenting book once, that said, its just confusing to kids to be told all the time that you love them to bits without giving them specifics - tell them what you really like about them and it reinforces the positive behaviour and their positive qualities. I guess WS work the same way - some of them anyway. Just an idea.<p>I think you're handling this extremely well - good luck!<p>Odile
Odile

Yes, it does make sense. I also am not ready for my H to see everything I say, or have said, on this site, because I don't think he's ready to hear it yet - I'm afraid he would use things against me as well. But there are two posters here, FormerHopelessOne and Love_Her_Madly who have given me a lot of hope. Their situation was much like mine is and now both post here and are well ahead in recovering their M - his tag says it all. FHO has been one of the people to really help me keep my head and stay focused on the positive things, instead of letting my anxiety run me and make me do wild and crazy, non constructive things.<p>Radical honesty is something I brought to my M to begin with and its where I hope to get with my WH someday, but I'm accepting this will take time - its still my goal, though.<p>You sound like you're doing the right kind of loving things with your wife - even if she hasn't said so, I'm sure she's noticed, it's just that she's probably watching your changes over time, too - perhaps you could ask her to let you know when you do something she likes. This is a tactic I am using with my H, although it's not something he has asked of me - Estes49 told me to conduct a science experiment on my H and try to meet each one of the ENs and watch his reaction. Admiration and loving words of appreciation got a favourable response, so I have made it my policy to honestly try to tell him one good thing about himself that I like and/or appreciate every day as an act of love. He glows every time I do this and I've done it every day for the past 4 weeks - part of why the atmosphere between us is improving. Maybe you can ask your wife to give you the feedback you need to let you know when you do something she likes. If she starts to participate in this way, it well help her feel better about you, too - although I'm angry at my H and don't trust him, there are still a lot of good things about him that were attractive to me in the first place. Doing this has helped keep those good things about him to the fore to balance the bad and my insecurity.<p>Perhaps if you do the same with her, this will help you to see her good qualities as well. I remember reading a parenting book once, that said, its just confusing to kids to be told all the time that you love them to bits without giving them specifics - tell them what you really like about them and it reinforces the positive behaviour and their positive qualities. I guess WS work the same way - some of them anyway. Just an idea.<p>I think you're handling this extremely well - good luck!<p>Odile
Odile

Odile:<p>Thanks for the suggestions and the vote of confidence!<p>I think I'll try these. Actually, I had thought of trying something like you suggest with the ENs, but hadn't formulated a clear plan as to how to do that without direct feedback from my W. Trying one at a time is a good suggestion.<p>regards,

2Long, I know that you have followed my posts. My situation, much like yours, has had major developments. I wanted to tell you about them.<p>1st...I was not that religious, like you, but I continued to pray and ask God for help, guidance, clarity in my wife's mind and the ability to forgive. I prayed every spare minute I had and during my sleepless nights. Last week I actually gave up on my marriage somewhat. At that point, everything started to change. A turn of events at my W's work and a definite gift from God has lifted the FOG from my W's mind. I think now that everything will be OK for us.<p>I suggest that you regain your faith and pray from your heart for what you seek. I suggest this not as a religious person, but as a friend and from my own experience. You will not see results fast, but over time your prayers will be answered.<p>If you truely love your W, and if she truely loves you, plan B and things will work.<p>"With GOD all things are possible"<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: I Spy ]</p>

2long,<p>People do tell their spouse about this site. What you cannot do is "educate" your WS. If she were interested in why you have changed and where you are drawing your ideas from, then tell her.<p>I do think you need to explain something too her. One after this affair you will NEVER be the same again. Two, most people don't change and you probably haven't changed either. What has changed is your perspective on things. Perspective can change. She doesn't believe it??<p>Ask her what her perspective was on the marriage BEFORE her A and after her A. Ask her if she doesn't feel that her behavior changed YOUR perspective on the marriage. Ask her if she hasn't used your not listening to justify and change her perspective.<p>This issue is not right or wrong. This issue is that what she fears (your changes not being permenant) are not valid fears. You are behaving differently because your perspective of your marriage, what your W needs, and what you need are and have been changed. Indeed, this is a good thing, because what is clear??? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] from the previous paragraph is that she has SOME control over your perspective. So if she likes the NEW you, she has a lot of control whether this version of you stays.<p>Let's be brutally honest, she has lied to you for 11 years, your marriage has been a shame for 11 years. While you didn't know what caused it, you were "changed" by the reality of this situation. You have been "changed" again by the knowledge of your true marriage.<p>So perhaps you can reassure her that you won't change back, because you have not changed. All you have now is a completely new perspective and that perspective is evolving. Where it ends up is at least partially within her control.<p>Something to think about.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL:<p>"If she were interested in why you have changed and where you are drawing your ideas from, then tell her."<p>Actually, I have. I tell her that I post to this site, and will occasionally tell her about threads that I've contributed to, even a few that are similar to our own situation. What I won't do is "force her" to go to the site herself, or read anything from it to her anymore (educate her). But I also won't "lie" if she asks me point blank what the URL is so she can check it out. She hasn't done that, and I don't think she will, unless she "feels ready" or is truly curious about what I'm doing, particularly if it's "working well" from HER perspective.<p>"What has changed is your perspective on things."<p>This is a very important point. My behavior HAS changed, even some of my primary interests have taken a back seat to my interest in human behavior and relationships (My "hobby" of posting to this site has superceded my other main hobby, amateur astronomy. I haven't had a telescope outside since early January, and I used to go out at least every other night).<p>"Ask her what her perspective was on the marriage BEFORE her A and after her A."<p>Yep. Have done that, as you know. Her perspective on our M before her A was that "the first 15 years were pretty good." DURING the A, I didn't pay enough attention to her goals and ambitions, focused pretty much on my own accomplishments and hobbies, and didn't listen to her "danger signs" (really hints, because she obviously never explicitly told me about her A). After her A (which she thought ended last November), her perspective was that things were getting better, that I was listening more and we were getting along better, that I was doing more "selfless" things like the model planes with my son, that sort of thing. What's "funny" about this is her perspective that things weren't going well correspond exactly in time with her A and "illicit friendship" in between the EA/PA periods at the beginning and end of it over the 11 years! Not a coincidence (from my perspective [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>"Ask her if she doesn't feel that her behavior changed YOUR perspective on the marriage. Ask her if she hasn't used your not listening to justify and change her perspective."<p>Good questions, related to my response above. I will ask them, when I get the opportunity.<p>"This issue is not right or wrong."<p>Very important point!<p>"what is clear??? from the previous paragraph is that she has SOME control over your perspective. So if she likes the NEW you, she has a lot of control whether this version of you stays."<p>In a very real sense, this is like the effect my plan A can have on changing her perspective on the M. Point being, that she has something she can and should do for HERSELF, that can have a positive influence on my perspective of the M, just as my plan A is for ME, but can positively influence her thinking.<p>"Let's be brutally honest, she has lied to you for 11 years, your marriage has been a shame for 11 years. While you didn't know what caused it, you were "changed" by the reality of this situation. You have been "changed" again by the knowledge of your true marriage."<p>Yes. Brutal honesty is something I (and she) respect! I've pointed this out to her in the past, but she cringed when I did so, and so I've refrained, except during our MC sessions. I'm still not sure what she's said about M, the hurtful comments I've posted elsewhere, are truly reflections of what she feels about M, versus rationalizations for her behavior during her A. Like the comment "you should go and find someone better" seems to be fairly common for WSs to say to the BSs during (and just after) their As, when their own self-esteem is low or they don't want to give up the OP. I'll have to find that out, though.<p>"Something to think about. "<p>Indeed!

JL:<p>"Let's be brutally honest, she has lied to you for 11 years, your marriage has been a shame for 11 years. While you didn't know what caused it, you were "changed" by the reality of this situation. You have been "changed" again by the knowledge of your true marriage."<p>I thought about this again, and realize that herein lies my biggest concern about our future. Since H&O is my #1 EN, the fact that she lied to me for 11 years (through omission) and that she still appears to believe that she should be able to have her "privacy" (including close friendships with men, though she realizes the dangers inherent with those relationships now, though we haven't talked about the privacy issue in a few weeks), I realize that our future will depend on complete frankness about everything. If she doesn't feel comfortable with that, I can't be M'd to her. It'd eat me alive forever.

I Spy:<p>"I suggest that you regain your faith and pray from your heart for what you seek. I suggest this not as a religious person, but as a friend and from my own experience. You will not see results fast, but over time your prayers will be answered."<p>I appreciate your thoughts, I Spy. I have a pretty complicated religious history, actually, but am pretty comfortable with my current status as an atheist. There was a time when I felt pretty antagonistic toward religion, but these days I figure we're all trying to figure out the "human condition" in our own ways, and can accept that those ways differ. <p>Again, thank you for your kind thoughts!

2long,<p>Yeah, you are right. She is going to have to realize that you need to trust her and that you now realize that she can easily fool you. The ONLY solution, short of a set of leg irons [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] , is honesty and very consistent honesty, not just about what you ask, but about what she does when you don't ask.<p>It is that darn PERSPECITIVE thing again isn't it? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] She has to change hers and begin to see yours.<p>But, I do think that people are right to FEAR that "changes" won't be permenant. People rarely "change" alot. But, really they do change perspectives, and perhaps when she thinks about it in those terms it will comfort her and give her hope.<p>AS for studying people rather than stars. Well, there are "variable" stars [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] , but there are a lot more "variable" people. You have just switched one hobby for another and let me warn you... it is addictive. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It sounds as if you are doing pretty well these days. Keep up the good work.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Thanks again, JL!!

This ain't right 2Long...I can't keep track of all your new threads! Just found this one! ;-)

SC:<p>Oops, sorry! I guess I feel bad for hijacking other people's threads with my miniscule problems [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] , so I try to create new threads. They don't always get the traffic I feel like I need, though, and so I hijack some more!!<p>Thanks for looking and thinking about me, though!