A year ago I found out my W had an EA/PA with a MM that started on the internet. <p>I knew she had developed a habit of chatting on the internet with a group of people but she insisted it was just "friends". My casual observations seemed to confirm this. I believe the PA occurred while I was out of the country on an extended business trip, however that was months before I found out positively.<p>It has almost been a year since D-Day, and the problem is that she doesn't want to let this OM go. She will talk to me about him at times that are very hurtful. For example I decided to surprise her and take her out to dinner to a nice restaraunt. While at dinner she brought him up. I was angry but bit my tongue, which I commonly do because she brings it up at times that are difficult to deal with. I don't know why she does this, but she must know it hurts me, like rubbing salt in my wounds.<p>I originally thought she would get over this man over time, but now I think she never will, and continues to demonstrate this at least several times a week. She even stopped wearing her wedding ring, saying it was too loose. I started to believe that she may have sold it because I asked her to show it to me, and she wouldn't for months. Just recently she showed it to me, wearing it on her middle finger. Why she wouldn't show it to me for so long even when I insisted is still a mystery.<p>There is much more to our situation, but I wanted to get the base story out there to see if anyone had advice. I am the one that is initiating the marriage building, and she doensn't know at this time. I have ordered some books and wait for them to arrive. At the right opportunity, after I take a hard look at myself, I will approach her with the prospect of building our marriage back. I don't get many chances to confront her because she usually will just walk away, hang-up or get very angry to end the conversation. <p>I believe in working through problems, but I feel like if she can't get over this OM, then we don't have a chance at a good marriage.<p>Any suggestions are welcome!<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]</p>

Want2FixIt<p>Your W is grieving for loss of the MM. Her feelings for him obviously ran very deep and she is devasted by his loss almost in the same way she would be if you had died. Her "other husband" has passed on, tragically and suddenly, so there is a big gaping hole left in her. She did not have the chance reach any closure with the MM before he passed on and was still very much involved emotionally with him. Because you did not discover the affair until after his death, the normal phase of you asking her to break all contact from the MM of her volition is gone. She did not have to deal with the pain of separating from him on her own to end the affair and to help fix the marriage, so she is now "stuck" in whatever feelings she was having for the MM before he died. She won't let him go because she has not fully grieved and released him from her heart. I know this is very painful for you to hear, but it is what I believe to be happening.<p>She may indeed love you, but it sounds like she avoids you when you press her. From what I can gather from your base story is that she is very self-absorbed in her own pain and her own feelings, and is not being very sensitive to yours. As painful as it is for you, do you have the capacity to help through the grieving process and let go of this OM? If you do, she must agree to the marriage rebuilding so that you helping her get over the OM will be part of that rebuilding process. It sounds to me like she will need extensive IC as well as MC.<p>Can you tell her that you are grieving the "loss" of your marriage? She may not realize it. <p>I don't know what books you ordered, but I am sure they will help guide through the process. I do agree with you though, that unless she stops pining away for her lost A with the MM, you two will never be able to rebuild. That is why I suggest she seek counseling to work through the grieving process to completion and let the OM go. Until that happens, he will always be there, even though he is not physically around anymore. His "ghost" will haunt your marriage until she can release him. She needs to say good-bye to the affair and to him. Hopefully other more seasoned forum members can add to this and be more helpful. Good Luck and God Bless.

Wan2fixit,
Your story is eerily familiar to me. I think that I may be familiar with your W and her story. As I think that she may have posted on the internet website that I used to post on. <p>If there is anything I can do to help let me know. I wish that she would not go to that website. They are do not give very good advice as most are all involved with lost loves. And are very deep in the fog. <p>Please, if any of this sounds familiar to you let me know. I am worried about your W. She has been posting lately and seems very depressed. Email me if you would like.
1step

Well this is gonna sound like hard love but here it is. You gotta Plan A. Period. You fix whatever was/is wrong with you, show her agape love, and take care of the kids.
I'm reaching the 6 month mark. Doesn't look like plan B will be needed.
It's hard. So it comes down to how strong is your love?
Right now it's all up to you. What can you do to win her back? Can you take what she'll say if you let her get it all off her chest? The choices are yours and none of them are easy.
Many of us have been there and survived. I'm working toward a better marriage. Many have made it. Some haven't. I know this isn't much for encouragement but it's all up to you and what you want.
If you want your M you'll do what it takes to save it. This site tells you how to save it. Read it and practice it.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'm just getting started in this MB so I have a lot to learn. <p>BlindSided, I think you are correct about the grieving. She will always remember the OM as he was, while they were in that "infatuation" phase. I thought in some ways that she would eventually realize that he couldn't have been as wonderful as she thought, seeing what he was willing to put his own family through. But at this point, I think she will always see him as her soul mate.<p>I think she loves me, or at least I know she used to. At this point, I'm not as sure. I hope it can be repaired, and want to try as I believe in sticking with commitments of marriage vows and working through the problems. At this point, and for much of my marriage, I've tried to figure out how to work through the problems. It isn't easy, so I'm hoping to get the "tools" to do it.<p>I think the idea of telling her the "grieving" the loss of our marriage is a good concept and one I will think about how to do.<p>I've ordere Love Busters, and Give and Take by Willard F. Harley Jr. because they seemed to be the right ones for me to start with.<p>Jerry, Thanks for yor suggestions, I will have to understand Plan A a bit more before acting. I've been reading, the website, but look forward to reading the books I've ordered to understand things better.<p>1step, thanks for communicated by email so that I could confirm that it is a different person you met.<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]</p>

I know it is hard to take this but looking at it from a different angle, your wife feels safe with you in beign honest about her feelings of loss for OM. You have created a safe environment where she feels she can confide in you, as her best friend, things that normally she would confide to another person. This is very good because it is dishonesty that breeds affairs and you should feel proud of yourself for beign not only a good husband but more importantly, her best friend in deed. She may not appreciate the hurt that you are feeling right now because she is wrapped up grieving for the death of the OM, but in time she will. Maybe at a later time, after she has recovered from her mourning, you might tell her that the pain she went thru could have been avoided if she had come to you instead of relying on OM to fulfill her ENs.<p>I wish for you and your wife the very best and may God bless you both.<p>Joe

Thanks TooMuch for your encouraging words. I think you may be right about the safe environment because I don't lash back and will listen (albeit uncomfortably), but I also think I'm currently not her first confidant. I think she shares with others on the internet at this time more than me. She also talks on the phone with someone so that could be another problem brewing there. Obviously I'm not meeting her emotional needs right now, or she wouldn't be doing this. But I think she also may be addicted to this activity of "chatting" now, even if it is with "just friends". That will be a big issue for us to work through but she will need to be willing. That's a big IF.<p>I want to help her through her issues, but I know I have to start with me first. Does anyone have an opinion on Marriage Coaching Vs Marriage Counseling? I have thought for some time that we needed something like couseling, but have never trusted their approach. Once I found the MB website, it seemed to make more sense. We have never been through counseling or coaching before, and I'm interested in others experiences in this area.<p>BTW, Forgivness has always come easy for me, when the other person is repentent. At this point, she is definitely not repentent, but I'm ready and willing to forgive when she's ready. I've also caused pain for her, but she struggles with forgivness. That causes a build up of resentment I think. The Love Bank idea is likely a key to this healing.<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]</p>

My H and I have been to several marraige coaching/counseling sessions with Jennifer Harley Chalmers. I felt very good about it. My H did not but one must keep in mind that she told him a lot of things about his infidelities that he did not want to hear. Nevertheless, I think it helped us. I wish we were still going because I liked the progress we saw when we worked with her. I think it was too painful for my H, to be honest, to hear how badly he had screwed up. I can relate more about this if you like. Anyway I found it to be quite helpful.<p>Bluebird

Bluebird,<p>I hope that we can get some counseling. I'm still doing a bunch of learning and reading from this MB and Love Busters book, and want to be better prepared for the process before getting started with the counceling. How much improvement and enlightenment should I expect for one session? Are the sessions together or are some of them alone? I'm wondering if I should have one alone to figure out a strategy before getting my W involved. I don't want to blow the first opportunity to get help.<p>Any advice is welcome [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Fixit, I thought I would jump in here because I have just had my 2nd counseling session with Steve Harley. It was incredibly helpful and comforting for me being the BS. I wasn't sure when I setup the appointment that my H would participate. It turns out that he wanted to. What SH did was talk with us both for a few minutes, and then he asked to talk with me alone, then with my H alone. The next session was my H alone; the following session was me alone. We really like he "coaching" approach vs the traditional therapy. We have had traditional marriage counseling in the past. The phone counseling with SH is the best. <p>You're right about taking the time to study the concepts. I have spent hours and hours reading and studying; and I can tell it helped me quite alot. <p>I am relieved that my H feels that the phone counseling is helpful; he feels supported and treated with kindness and respect even though he is the WS.<p>We were unsure if we could get maximum benefit from the "phone"counseling especially since I am very visually oriented. The best way I can describe it after having 2 sessions is that SH is an expert in surviving infidelity; so time isn't wasted. It is the rifle aproach - hit the target dead-on; vs the shotgun approach of traditional therapy - keep talking and going and eventually you may hit the mark. Just my opinion; but as a result of the phone therapy I am starting to feel a little peace and hope! Good luck!

Want2FixIt,<p>Just writing to ditto Csue's comments on counselling with Steve and Jennifer. My expereince with Jennifer was very similar to Csue's with Steve. I wonder about going alone to counselling versus togehter. However, I really wanted counselling to be our decision, something we sought together, though I was the one promoting it more than my H.<p>Bluebird

Thanks CSue and Bluebird, I am encouraged by your experiences. I'm guessing I will try to get my W to go with me, but would be willing to go alone if necessary. I know I have my bias, but I think making adjustments will be harder for her than me. I hope I'm wrong on that, but with counseling, I can get an independent view to help make progress.<p>Do either of you have a recommended reading list before starting the sessions? I'm working through Love Busters and it is helping me understand our relationship problems quite a bit so far.<p>Thanks again<p>[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]<p>[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]</p>

Fixit; Here's some recommendations I have gotten from the wise souls on this website. In particular I found the article "Shattered Vows" found at www.findarticles.com. This is a 22 page article from Psychology Today from back in 1998. You can download it today; it's well worth it. My favorite books so far are Harley Books. Surviving An Affair & His Needs Her Needs. I've spent hours and hours reading these things and writing in a journal. This set me up to be in a "right mind" when I had my first counseling session with Steve Harley. Some of the things he said I haven't seen written anywhere and they gave me the most comfort. He is clearly an expert. Hope this helps! CSue

Thanks CSue your information is helpfull,<p>I will take a look at the article you mentioned. You confirm my approach to read and get mentally prepared for any councelling. Did your H read any books or this site to get into the right frame of mind, or did he go into it without knowing much? I would like my W to read up some, first, but she may not be too interested. But if I make the appointment for councelling then maybe she will get motivated. Any thoughts on that?

Fixit; Tough question because I think the answer depends on the individual. For sure His Needs Her Needs is an easier read because it's a less highly charged subject. In it however there's a great chapter on affairs. My thought is that it wouldn't hurt to have the books available for her to read but wouldn't push it. Steve encourages everyone to explore this website reading the basic concepts etc. It was so shocking for me to realize that I'm dealing with this issue that once the SAA book arrived I had to do a bit of grieving before I could actually pick it up and read it. However it was extremely helpful.<p>In my case my H found His Needs Her Needs in the waiting room of the doctors office. He picked it up and skimmed it while waiting. He liked it so much he bought a copy and told me about it. I suggested that he buy me a copy too since it has questions and exercises. This all occurred prior to d-day. I thought at the time he told me about it that it was to enhance our already great marriage. HA! <p>In reality after he read the entire book he realized the need to tell me about his A. My advantage in this was that he already like the MB philosophy; so it wasn't a stretch to do the phone counseling. He was just shocked at the price; and wondered about the effectiveness of the "phone" part of it.<p>We both think that we will spend less money in the long run; and there's no question about the effectiveness. Hope this helps! CSue

Fixit; one more thought. I think that if I were in your position I would make the first phone counseling appointment for you alone. Steve can help you with a strategy right away as far as what to do first, 2nd, etc. He's also great at telling you WHAT NOT TO DO to make things worse. This in particular was very helpful to me. Be ready to take notes during the appt. CSue

CSue,<p>Thanks again for the useful tips. I haven't finished the LB book yet but have another Harley book on order, but will still need to get HNHN. It sounds like you were both mentally ready to do something which is great.<p>I just brought up the subject very gently today, and my impression is that she is afraid of having to confront her Love for the OM. She started to cry just thinking about him. I was asking her if she thought it was possible to restore our love like it was before. I told her I did, and gave a brief overview of the MB principles. I was just testing the water and I can see we have some work to do. It just confirmed the need for professional help though, because I don't think she wants to give up the love for the OM to Love me. Somehow I think she would rather be miserable the rest of her life than to let OM go, and move on to the reality of our lives together.<p>I'm not sure any of this makes sense as it is confusing even to me. I am encouraged to go on though because I feel I can become a better husband and person through the application of these principles. I don't have any control over whether or not she will.<p>Thanks again for the good advice!

Fixit, you're right; I feel fortunate that my H and I are on the same page moving forward. I have some anxiety with the possibility that there is another d-day lurking for me; but I'm confident that with Steve's help we'll face it head-on. What a tough situation for you and your W with her feelings for the OM. Your kindness and compassion for her in spite of your pain are really going to help both of you. CSue

Want2FixIt,<p>Just wanted to say that I agree. I would read as much as possible before talking to Steve. By the way I was with Jennifer and know for sure if it was not for her I would not be married right now. Some tips before you talk to him:
1) Have all books available
2) Write out what you want to say for sure (a hour goes by faster than you would think)
3) Have pen and paper ready for taking notes
4) Relax he knows what he is talking about and will ask the right leading questions.<p>I also agree with you taking the first session by your self. Just please tell your wife what you are doing she may join you which would be excellent. Either way she will know you care enough to try and get help. Also if it is at all possible show her where you keep the books she may decide one night to read them. Every little bit helps.<p>Good luck and God bless!

Thank you Listener48, I'm glad you took the time to reply to my post. Your practical tips will definitely come in handy. I guess patience is a good thing in this. Sometimes I feel like I want to make things happen faster, but this will be a long process, so I might as well not rush it faster than what is realistic.<p>Since you went through the counseling, can you tell me how many sessions you have had? How often did you have to have a session, and over what period of time? I'm guessing that once a week at most initially, and maybe less frequently after that. They are quite expensive so would like to factor that into my budget. It is money well spent, but I want to make sure I can follow it through to the end.<p>Thanks again