Cali/2long,<p>I am asking both of you for your honest opinion. And anyone else that can shine some light on this situation.<p>I receive my books and I read 2 of them so far. SAA/ATA, presently reading HN/HN. But I am having a problem getting H to read them. He said he would fill out the EN, but hasn't yet. What can I say or do to convince him. As of d-day 03-12-02, H said that he no longer was involved with ow, since Dec 01. But on the 17th of this month I caught him there. (H said he went there just to talk and nothing happened). And just yesterday I caught him there to. He said that she wasn't home but he was having car trouble and felt comfortable parking there and checking on the brakes. (H told me that he was going to the cementary to visit his father). ow just happens to live around the cementary...... <p>I know everyone says leave him alone, but I am tired of being treated like a fool. I am doing my best not to LB but I am having a hard time. How long should I deposit??? Now do I have to start all over again? I read that every time WS sees/talks to op, you have to start all over again. Especially dealing with H emotions. What don't H understand about not seeing/talking to ow?
He promised me that he wouldn't but why did he even park there to check on his brakes?<p>We have therapy tomorrow and I think I may tell him that if he can't promise that he won't see/talk to the ow, then he has to leave untill he can be sure he wants to work things out. Is it to soon???? I don't want to push H to ow but what else can I do???<p>Lost<p>We are going to counseling tomorrow and hopefully we can resolve some issues there. I want to tell him that he can't ever see/talk to the ow again.

Sorry to hear that.
First did you check up on his brake problem. He didn't have to park his car there and leave it. Well...I believe he is still seeing her. You did meantion that he was there twice. He needs to be comforting, listening, and expressing his emotions with you. Not her. He doesn't need to speak with her about anything. I think that if you make him leave...you may very well push him into her arms. Let him stay, but not in your bed. But wait until after your meeting tomorrow to see what he says about being there. Stress that you want the truth, and if you feel he is lying...then he is. Hope everything goes well and don't get angry or he will close up and not be willing to be open with you. God Bless

It is soooooo early days yet... believe me, I know how hard this is.<p>My H continued to see/contact OW for 9 months after d-day... he has only just committed to recovery and continuation of our marriage.<p>Yes, continued contact is tough. I did what I though was right for me at the time... it is not right to second guess myself now, but sometimes I wish I had been strong enough just let him go and figure it out... <p>I eventually did 'let him go' while he was still here... I did some of the Divorce Remedy steps by Michele Wiener-Davis ( www.divorcebusting.com ).<p>I also really connected with some friends who prayed w/ me and listened to me... then I didn't have to 'talk' him to death.<p>The first months are the hardest... but the BEST thing to do is TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF... really focus on what lovebusters you need to eliminate... work on how to say what you want to say w/out lovebusting... use 'I feel' statements instead of 'You make me' statements.<p>Don't grill him. I repeat don't grill him. Tell him in no uncertain terms that you will NOT be in a three-way relationship. That's where I got to. I am your wife. I will not come second. If that is what you want, let's do some paperwork.<p>As you pull away... they often start to pursue... (see Dr. Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough."<p>Good luck,
Cali

Arniz/Cali,<p>Today was another day. Not so bad. At counseling H told C that the only reason he was staying was for the kids. C said did you just hear that? And I replied yes. C said to H so if the kids were not present you wouldn't be there??? H said yes...... Oh my GOD I felt my heart being ripped out of my chest. But I suprised myself. I didn't cry. Well not till later in the session. I turned to my H and said if that is what you want to do then I think you should leave today. And I reminded him to remember it was he who wanted out, not me. C said well??? H then said that he didn't want to leave, that he wanted to try to work things out. C said why are you doing this to her. And H said that he didn't know.<p>H told C that he didn't feel loved. And he didn't think that I loved him. H said the ow was nice and never asked him for anything. (I guess destroying his marriage is nothing). That time I did cry. Well, C made H to tell me exactly what he wanted & can you believe he wants to feel loved. I had to tell the C about SAA/ATA and I told C that H had to never see/talk to ow ever again. Because if H did we would have to start all over again. C agreed and told H that he couldn't even go 700 feet near her house. C said that we should put a time limit on this situation, and 2 months was it. Is that reasonable time??? I of course was very hurt and sad. But I am going to try. I am going to finish HN/HN. Hopefully I can get some insight into his need. H still has not identified what extactly is his needs. But hopefully he will fill out the en questioneer.<p>Yes, H did have brake problems and it is in the shop. I am suprised that wasn't a lie.... Anyway my H also told the C that I go thru his things and I also follow him, and when I do that makes him resent me even more. H said that we can have such good day sometimes, but when he finds out or I say something (LB) it puts us back to square one. C made me promise that I wouldn't snoop/follow....... I don't know how well I can do that but I'll try. <p>What do I do now? H also told me on the way home that he thinks I have unresolved problems with my family and we aren't going to get better untill I get better? Why would he say that? Is he trying to make me feel guily? Or trying to blame me for the A? Is H still in the cloud? I don't know what to do?????? I was so angry with him that I didn't even want to speak to him. But I did. I feel very very tired now. I cried so much that I broke a vessel in my eye. Not very attractive...<p>So I don't know if it was a good/bad day. But at least I now have some insight. <p>Cali, after 3 months from d-day your H moved out?? What did you do? How did you handle that situation? Did you not LB for the first 3 months? I am really really trying but when I caught him there on the 24th & 29th of this month, does that mean I have to start from the most recent d-day??? Which would only be 2 days ago for me??? I don't understand??? I read that the A usually dies because of all the lies, a fantasy......... I really really hope that is true.<p>Lost

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Cali, after 3 months from d-day your H moved out?? What did you do? How did you handle that situation? Did you not LB for the first 3 months? I am really really trying but when I caught him there on the 24th & 29th of this month, does that mean I have to start from the most recent d-day??? Which would only be 2 days ago for me??? I don't understand??? I read that the A usually dies because of all the lies, a fantasy......... I really really hope that is true. <hr></blockquote><p>I was a mess. literally. I posted here constantly and MB kept me from doing too many drastic things... now mind you moving out simply meant he 'slept' somewhere else... from about 3 in the afternoon until midnight he was w/ us...<p>No LBs the first 3 months... hardly... was pretty good... then I would have an LB session that rocked the world... I would say starting in October I was more LB free... (but not totally).<p>As for timeline... the Harleys would say 6 months... because 4 of those months your H will be in withdrawal... and if he makes any contact, the withdrawal process starts over...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>H told C that he didn't feel loved. And he didn't think that I loved him. H said the ow was nice and never asked him for anything. (I guess destroying his marriage is nothing). <hr></blockquote><p>My H said this too... in my opinion... they don't love themselves and, therefore, feel unloveable... you who know them best... all their flaws... how could you love them... someone new doesn't know all the 'junk' and just reflects back 'good' stuff... so it seems better... as he goes through withdrawal... and you make DEPOSITS inot his lovebank... it will rebound! and hopefully, he will do some work on himself too... begin to forgive himself so that he can open himself up to you... <p>Hugs,
Cali

Cali,<p>Since the C said for us to try for 2 months but withdrawal lasts 4 months what do I do in that case. Should I tell the C that withdrawal lasts 4 months? Or should I just give the C a SAF book?<p>I still think that my H is seeing the ow but not 100% sure. Should I continue to snoop or just deposit my butt off? <p>Can you believe today H filled out the EN form. I thought that was a good sign. Don't you think? H also said that we make good friends. I replied isn't that how things get started in the first place? H then just stood quite. I told him that I wanted him to read some information and H said that whatever it was it was just opinions made by another person. Maybe I pushed a bit so then I backed off. At least H gave a little. <p>Then when H left for work I found a red long hair in the car. H used my car while his car was being fixed (yesterday). Well I beeped him and asked him and H said that he had no one in the car. H asked me why and I told him that I found red hair in the car. H said that he was telling me the truth. I then told him that I was sorry and that I believed him. I ended the call with "ILY". Do you think that is to much for him to handle in one day??<p>Lost

Hi Lost - please follow Cali's advice. She speaks from experience and she knows her stuff.<p>Let me try to add to it.<p>You wrote, "H also told me on the way home that he thinks I have unresolved problems with my family and we aren't going to get better untill I get better? Why would he say that? Is he trying to make me feel guily?"<p>It is universal among WSs to cast blame and identify faults in the BS, apparently to help them rationalize what they're doing. So, he's not necessarily trying to make YOU feel guilty as much as he is trying to make HIMSELF feel LESS guilty. I promise you'll hear more. The hard core WSs basically rewrite history. <p>"Or trying to blame me for the A?" He WILL blame you for the A - in bits and pieces, at least. In reality, you are partly responsible for helping to create the favorable conditions for the A. All BSs are. We all have contributed to the poor marital environment - to varying degrees. BUT - you ARE NOT responsible for his decision to have an A or his inability to resist it. This is completely his doing.<p>"Is H still in the cloud?" You bet - BIG TIME!!!<p>And here's the best advice I can offer - don't argue with him about it. There is NOTHING you can do to separate the affairees. To hasten its end- leave them alone.<p>DO NOT try to reveal his lies. DO NOT call him about finding red hairs. YOU are RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT!!! He is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! But PROVING you are right will not get you where you want to go. OK?<p>We know it's hard, but the best thing you can do right now is to back off. Stop snooping - you have nothing more to gain by it now until such time as he's REALLY ready to break it off.<p>Please don't assume a schedule based on what you read. There are not set time limits to predict what he's gonna do. Just please accept that NOTHING will happen soon and things tend to take longer rather than shorter. BUT, one thing is very likely to happen - the affair will die. You can survive this. Read around here and see how many others have survived. Please slow down and give this time.<p>WAT

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by lost:
<strong>Cali,<p>Since the C said for us to try for 2 months but withdrawal lasts 4 months what do I do in that case. Should I tell the C that withdrawal lasts 4 months? Or should I just give the C a SAF book? <hr></blockquote></strong><p>I had a timeline in my head... but circumstances would change and I would alter my timeline... so do the 2 month thing... you just never know what will happen. If you have 'private' time w/ therapist, mention what you have learned in your reading about the withdrawal time... <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <strong>
I still think that my H is seeing the ow but not 100% sure. Should I continue to snoop or just deposit my butt off?
<hr></blockquote></strong> <p>Depends. I snooped. LB'd. snooped. LB'd. Snooped. LB'd. See the pattern. It wasn't until I could 'snoop' and NOT LB, that changes occurred. At this point, you need to get strong enough to know that you are going to be okay... with or without him... and, if snooping just sends you into 'despair' mode... what's the point?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Can you believe today H filled out the EN form. I thought that was a good sign. Don't you think? H also said that we make good friends. I replied isn't that how things get started in the first place? H then just stood quite. I told him that I wanted him to read some information and H said that whatever it was it was just opinions made by another person. Maybe I pushed a bit so then I backed off. At least H gave a little. <hr></blockquote></strong><p>Yep... watch the pushing... remember YOU CAN'T TEACH HIM. Pray. I prayed that I would find the right words... or that the 'right' person would enter my H's life and lead him in the right direction... and that my H's heart would soften and that his eyes and ears be open to the truth...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <strong>
Then when H left for work I found a red long hair in the car. H used my car while his car was being fixed (yesterday). Well I beeped him and asked him and H said that he had no one in the car. H asked me why and I told him that I found red hair in the car. H said that he was telling me the truth. I then told him that I was sorry and that I believed him. I ended the call with "ILY". Do you think that is to much for him to handle in one day??<p>Lost</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Don't argue. Yeah... you were probably right... but there are no prizes in life for being right... We have a saying around here... <p>YOU CAN BE RIGHT OR YOU CAN BE MARRIED. <p>One of the biggest lessons I learned is that I had to give up my NEED to be right. <p>I asked some other folks from GQII to come here and give you some feedback... I think you would benefit from a wide variety of experiences... I hope you don't mind.<p>Hugs,
Cali

Cali,<p>Thank You so much....... Yes, I would appreciate any feedback from MB members. <p>Snooping is making me crazy but I can't seem to stop. I don't know what is is, but believe me I do want to stop because everytime I find something I am right back to being miserable. <p>You said about time line. I though that every time H see/talked to ow he would go back to square 1. Well how would I know if and when he sees/talks to ow? <p>H promised me that he hasn't but I still don't believe him. I am just worried that if he does continue to see ow what happens in that situation? Do you just continue to deposit? I find it very very hard to not ask him where he is going and what he did for the day....... I feel that he owes me and he should tell me where he is going. He should account for his time. Today H said that I always question him? Well, no kidding............... I'm really really trying but finding it extremely hard not to question him. How can you just leave him alone and not worry about someone that you love so much??<p>Lost

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How can you just leave him alone and not worry about someone that you love so much?? <hr></blockquote><p>Cause you can only fix your half of the relationship. Worry will not fix anything... AND I KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING IS HARD... it took me MONTHS to get here.<p>Hugs,
Cali

Cali,<p>I am sorry that I am aggraviating you. It must really get on your nerves when you hear the same thing over and over again. <p>I know that I have to leave him alone. But what exactly does that mean? Not to ask him any questions? Not to call/beep him? Not to check his beeper? Not to follow him and see if he is still with the ow?<p>Cali, do A's really end of a natural death? I am depositing but sometimes H responds and sometimes he don't. NORMAL??? H always tells me that he doesn't hate me and he also says he doesn't blame me. WHAT IS THAT ABOUT???? But then H will hug/kiss me. What about x? Is it normal for H to still want to have x? I would think that if H was so attracted to this ow, then he wouldn't even want to be around me. FOG????<p>Lost

dear lost-first off you need to breathe. get yourself in a calmer state-wine, candles a bath, do whatever you have to do calm down. you cannot fix this alone, or in one day. you cannot force your wh to help in fixing this either. all you can do right now is fix you. now with that said- how do we fix you??? that very question took me awhile to figure out. i had to learn to take care of me. i realized that until i was healthy-mentally and physically-i was gonna be no good to anyone. think of it like this-do you want a raving lunatic in charge of fixing your life and marriage??? i didnt. slow down and breath and get ready for baby steps. it is very aggravating and long. but the journey is well worth it. i have become such a better person for it.<p>if i can help-ask away.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by lost:
<strong>I know that I have to leave him alone. But what exactly does that mean? Not to ask him any questions? Not to call/beep him? Not to check his beeper? Not to follow him and see if he is still with the ow?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, yes, yes, yes!<p>Don't bother him about this and don't ask questions. Yes, you will feel like you're being eaten from the inside out. This is not FAIR, this is not RIGHT, and this is not HUMANE. BUT, this is the way it IS.<p>Complain to us, not him.<p>WAT

lost:<p>I'm very sorry I didn't see your post! I'll reply to your original post before I read the rest.<p>"I receive my books and I read 2 of them so far. SAA/ATA, presently reading HN/HN. But I am having a problem getting H to read them. He said he would fill out the EN, but hasn't yet. What can I say or do to convince him."<p>Don't feel bad. I still have yet to get my W to fill out the ENQ. I don't think I ever will, or at least I've resigned myself to that possibility so that I'm okay if she doesn't. WSs very definitely don't like to be "educated" about things that might appear to be telling them they're doing wrong ...because they ARE!<p>"As of d-day 03-12-02, H said that he no longer was involved with ow, since Dec 01. But on the 17th of this month I caught him there. (H said he went there just to talk and nothing happened). And just yesterday I caught him there to. He said that she wasn't home but he was having car trouble and felt comfortable parking there and checking on the brakes. (H told me that he was going to the cementary to visit his father). ow just happens to live around the cementary......"<p>This is horse puckey, pure and simple. Best thing to do is do your best to continue a good plan A, and try not to worry about what your H is doing. You can't control him anyway, and he can't behave rationally while he's involved with OW. You can only control YOU. <p>"I know everyone says leave him alone, but I am tired of being treated like a fool. I am doing my best not to LB but I am having a hard time. How long should I deposit??? Now do I have to start all over again? I read that every time WS sees/talks to op, you have to start all over again. Especially dealing with H emotions."<p>I think, in most cases, the "starting over" or resetting the clock on one's Plan A, happens only when they LB in a big way. This plan is supposed to be about bettering yourself, not winning the WS back. Him contacting OW repeatedly has nothing to do with your plan A schedule, if you have one. Ultimately, it's entirely up to you how long you do a plan A, and whether you need to go to a plan B or D. As time goes on, you'll feel better about this, and about the consequences, regardless of where your H's head is at at that time.<p>"What don't H understand about not seeing/talking to ow?"<p>Because, right now, HE'S MAJORLY STUPID!!! Really. He can't think straight. Won't be able to until he pulls his head out of his nether regions.<p>"He promised me that he wouldn't but why did he even park there to check on his brakes?"<p>Lame excuse.<p>"We have therapy tomorrow and I think I may tell him that if he can't promise that he won't see/talk to the ow, then he has to leave untill he can be sure he wants to work things out. Is it to soon???? I don't want to push H to ow but what else can I do???"<p>Your MC, if they're good, will be able to help you with this.<p>"I want to tell him that he can't ever see/talk to the ow again. "<p>We all want that of our WSs. Trouble is, they really have to make that decision themselves, so that you don't wind up being 2nd choice.<p>Actually, though it probably isn't reasonable to make this requirement while your H is in his A, if he comes to you and PROVES he has ended it and wants to rebuild, THEN you should be able to say "no contact forever" if he wants to be able to consider your M in Recovery. I know that's what I'm going to say.

I am so sorry for your pain. But in order to get any replies you must start your own topic. What you did was posted under me. To tell you the truth I haven't been on this site for to long so I really don't know much myself. But I do know one thing. <p>Please read SAS/HNHN. And also read everthing that the Harley's have to say. That would be your best bet.<p>Lost.<p>[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Tempest ]</p>

worthatry,<p>I will try my hardest not to badger. How sure are you the the affair will die??? But I do feel guilty only because I wasn't such a nice person and I did neglect him. <p>H said why do I care now? H is right...... Why all of a sudden since I found out about the A, that I do care? I anyways did care but I just didn't know how to take care of his bn's. I guess I was so busy that I did take him for granted. <p>Thank you for your help.<p>Lost

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by lost:
<strong>How sure are you the the affair will die??? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, no one can be absolutely sure, but the track record on these things is pretty predictable for the most part. Sure, some affairs are sustained and develop into life long relationships, but these are rare. For example, in Dr. Frank Pittman's book, Private Lies, he concludes that within five years of infidels getting married (those that make it that far), it is more likely that the original couple will be back together than the infidels will still be married. Other statistics are floating around, but it's easy to reason that relationships built on lies and deceit - shifting sand - are unlikely to take root for very long.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>But I do feel guilty only because I wasn't such a nice person and I did neglect him. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is pretty normal. As I said in a previous response, you likely contributed to the poor marital environment that was the basis for his excuse to have an affair. All BSs contribute to some degree. The fact that you recognize this is good. This means you know some of what you need to fix in your Plan A.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>H said why do I care now? H is right...... Why all of a sudden since I found out about the A, that I do care? I anyways did care but I just didn't know how to take care of his bn's. I guess I was so busy that I did take him for granted.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>His question is very, very typical - and probably appropriate - and an excellent starting point for you. Look at it this way - he recognizes that you care!! Further, you recognize that you may have played a part in the problems. Good! You care now because you have been threatened that your marriage is in trouble.<p>Here's your answer to him: "You're right. I didn't realize that I was not meeting your emotional needs and it took this to wake me up. I am very sorry for the part I played in creating this mess. Let's work together to resolve our problems."<p>This does NOT mean that he didn't contribute to the problems. He may have contributed more problems than you - but this is not about keeping score. The goal at this moment is for you to communicate to him your humbleness with the hopes that he will feel safe with you and will eventually be willing to eat some humble pie himself. <p>The hard part for you - and all BSs - will be the challenge of feeling like the only one willing to work. He may initially receive your "confession" as justification for what he's doing and he won't react the way you want. This is why you have to persevere in continuing to demonstrate that you have "changed" over an extended period of time. Don't ask, "how long?" because no one can predict this. You also have to balance your "caring" and "demonstrating" with NOT being needy, whiney, clingy, etc. The absolute best face to put on is an aloof one.<p>Also, please accept that he WILL NOT be willing to work on your relationship until he comes out of the fog. This is why you will hear over and over on this forum that Plan A is about YOU! It is not about "winning" your H back or about breaking up the affair. You cannot do ANYTHING to end the affair. All you can do is work on fixing your contributions to the problems while he's off in fantasy land. In a way, time stands still in your relationship during his affair. You have an "advantage" in being able to fix things in yourself during this time and when he comes out of the fog, you may appear to him to have instantly changed.<p>I realize this is a lot to swallow right now, but you can come back and re-read these posts as you progress and learn.<p>WAT

Hi Lost, I feel for you, I've recently been there and WAT and others really helped me through all this. <p>You know, things really started to work for me when I let go. I felt more human, more in control and have become quite assertive and self confident. I'm 90% sure H is still in contact with OW but it dosen't matter so much anymore, because I've let go. I didn't say it was easy, it took a couple of months to get to this point, and I have to keep myself in check. Having a really fun holiday really helped. Is this an option for you? I suddened realised that there is life beyond H and although I'd be really sad, life would go on. (Having spunky dive instructors helped too, oops, I'm not supposed to be looking am I? [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Seriously, I can see myself in your posts, the desperation. But I promise, if you try to start focusing on what when wrong in your marriage (No I don't mean the affair) I mean the EN's stuff and yourself (what do you need to do to become less depend on WS) then you will be much happier and H will notice. Start living your life and let your H join you if and when he's ready. you can't force it now. <p>I followed H, rang OW, and did all that stuff until I figured out it was making me miserable. I mean, I knew he was having the affair, so why did I need to know more than that? I've been much happier since I've stopped. I open some credit cards and phone bills, make copies and keep them as 'evidence', but I try not to dwell on it.<p>Truly, lost, you will get there. Just keep coming here to vent, keep reading, journal and be kind to you.

Lost- I too couldnt stand it when H continued to see OW after I found out about his A. H told me he figure our marriage 'was over in his head' when his A turned physical. OW was a single coworker of his who claimed to be his 'soulmate' so of course he saw her every day which REALLY made things harder to repair.I tried to plan A and told him I didnt want a divorce but he seemed totally emotionally detached from me and it had no effect on him. After 2 wks of his sneaking off to see her I told him he need to 'move out to think.' We had been to counseling twice by then but he re-wrote our marriage history to make it sound worse than it was and said our marriage was 'hopeless.' So we stopped going there. After H moved out he of course moved into OW's condo but lied saying he was staying with friends. He would come by to see the kids but was cold and distant to me and kept bringing up divorce. I would cry and cry and take anti-D and go to counseling by myself and talk to friends on the phone. After 6 wks of this OW began to pressure H for MORE commitment to her and that was what eventually made home begin to appear more attractive to H. I really thought our marriage was over but here we are a year later and in recovery! Take care and hang in there- lifeismessy

lost:<p>How are you doing? Sorry, again, that I didn't see your thread earlier. I've just finished reading the other responses to you and see that you're getting feedback from the BEST! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Believe me (and I know you do), I've been through some pretty serious downs, even that one recently (only just last week!), but the best thing for me has been the "letting go" advice that you've been getting here, too. I'm not saying that I don't snoop AT ALL anymore. I have a couple of times recently, but nothing I've learned has had any real effect on what I'm doing. <p>As you develop your plan A behavior and rebuild yourself, you'll find you're better able to "understand" your H's behavior and the things he says for what they are - pretty much foggy nonsense. When or if he recommits to you, you'll then be better able to tell whether he's sincere or not. Most people aren't very good at lying, and most "experienced" Plan A'ers are pretty good judges of character. We BSs all just got into this mess, in large part, because we were perhaps TOO trusting of our WSs - so much so that we wanted so hard to believe they were faithful that we were unable to see the "obvious" signs for what they were. We'll be a lot harder to fool a second time!<p>Take care, lost. You are a kind, loving mother and W. You are worth it! You will survive!