Help me out here. I have just found out about W's EA per sting below (see Emotional Affair) I have a new question. Where do I now draw the line on snooping? I previously saw her cell phone bill. If I feel she still isn't being totally honest. Is there anything that's out of line? This is good question for anyone. I don't want to get obsessive here but I'd like to spot check her honesty quotient.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cwmac:
<strong>Help me out here. I have just found out about W's EA per sting below (see Emotional Affair) I have a new question. Where do I now draw the line on snooping? I previously saw her cell phone bill. If I feel she still isn't being totally honest. Is there anything that's out of line? This is good question for anyone. I don't want to get obsessive here but I'd like to spot check her honesty quotient.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You snoop only to check your progress in your plan A, never never bring it up in converstation w/ W or even worst use it against her. When WS is not honest to BS ... you have to snoop !. You draw the line when you know the fact and stop there, spot check it back once in awhile to see if there is a change in the pattern. Keep the interval longer if the spot check result is the same from the previous one.<p>-RH-

I posted this to another poster today who is in a similar fix as you.<p>Welcome to marriagebuilders! After much searching, I found that my spouse was cheating on me, via the internet using e-mail, chat software and webcamming. Pornography was frequently used in my home, without my knowledge. My spouse then was able to contact other people on the phone for phone sex. Some spouses eventually meet the people they have contacted over the internet. <p>I never imagined my H was spending hours and hours on end looking at porn, chatting and having phone sex with OW. I would ask him if he was on the computer working and his reply was always yes. He lied to me over and over, looking me straight in the face. It changed him, it changed the way I think about him. I can no longer completly trust my H, with all the lies and the pain, I struggle with it everyday. <p>I discovered that my husband had two secret e-mail accounts, one with Hotmail and one with Yahoo. He had received a number of e-mail from women who knew him in some way. They had sent him their phone numbers and pornographic pictures too. After hacking into our PC, I was able to access both accounts and find out who he had in his address book, as well as messages sent and received. I felt bad because I was snooping and I also felt bad because of the horrible things I was discovering. However, I had to know the truth and the truth really hurt.<p>Now that you have this information, you want to know about what you should do next. I have four young children of my own so I know the dilemma you are facing first hand. I had a plan in mind though when it came time to confront him with the evidence about what he was doing and what I would say to him. I was very calm as I confronted him. I simply told him that if the porn and the secret phone calls and chatting did not stop right now, I was leaving. That was just over a year ago.<p>The discovery of infidelity is a real Pandora's box. Once you have gathered all sorts of PROOF of innappropriate behavior...when is enough enough? What level of acting out does one need to convince yourself that there is an addiction?
Once you have that evidence and proof, what are you going to do with it? How are you going to help yourself and your precious innocent babies? <p>Some betrayed spouses will gather proof for years without committment from their spouse that they recognize their addiction or at least, a
compulsion to do something (porn, etc.) that hurts their loved ones, yet they continue to do it! That is addiction. The betrayed spouse wrings their hands in grief for years, being the victim, allowing damaging experiences to continue and claim they don't know what to do. <p>Does this sound familiar?<p>If you aren't going to use the evidence building stage to get the wayward spouse to SEE addiction or compulsive porn behavior....just stop gathering it. Stop looking for it... you are just torturing yourself.<p>What's the point? Gain your truth about them and then writhe in agony? Continue to feel better than you have better self-control, or can 'love' better than they can?<p>You can buy the best software, hire the best PI and get the very best evidence. It will always boil down to one question. <p>What you are going to do with the information gathered once you have it? <p>It truly is a Pandora's box. Once you open the box, there is no going back to the way life once was. The discovery is dark, indeed, and many of us have seen and discovered things about our spouses that are shocking. In my years of experience with the infidelity of porn and chatting in my own relationship and in my health care career, I have found that by the time a betrayed spouse finds out about it, it's usually been going on for quite some time. Sometimes even for years, decades. It is TIME for the deceit to end and for you to know that you're being shown whatever it is for a higher purpose.<p>Good luck and let us all know how we can help. If it's as bad as you fear, be sure to read, post and read some more. Look around the web---we've got great sites that have been posted along the way dealing with this problem. Here are a few:<p>http://www.pureintimacy.com<p>http://www.oprah.com/phil/advice/phil_advice_internetporn.jhtml<p>http://www.infidelity-infidelity.com/<p>http://www.bustedyouonline.com<p>I am hoping some of the other marriagebuilders who have been through this will drop by as well and provide you with some sage advice. <p>
Bluebird

Some advice;<p>I found out that my W was having an A, basically "by instinct"; I just "had that feeling" that something was not right.<p>So I checked her cell voice-mail and sure enough, the first sign. I went on to rummage thru her "stuff", found letters, cards, photos, faxes, emails, etc.<p>At first, I used them to confront her, and avoid a denial. Of course it did not work. The denial turned into all kinds of lies, half-truths, etc.<p>Anyway; here's the advice. Don't use the information you gatehr against the WS; it'll backfire. If at first they deny it, use one piece of solid evidence and give them a chance to come clean.<p>If they do, great; probe further until you feel you have the whole truth, and if they're willing to end it right then, adhere to recovery principles, etc. you're on your way.<p>If they don't come clean, then it's more problematic. I kept snooping and made the mistake of thinking that with more and more evidence she'd finally come clean, but what it did was drive her even more underground, and make her more vehemently determeined NOT to tell. She fought back the perceived "invasion of privacy" by clamming up and refusing to this day to even acknowledge or talk about the A. A VERY difficult place to be when you want to rebuild a M.<p>So, snoop all you need to to find out and/or confirm the truth, but DO NOT use it against your spouse. It'll backfire. Use it to confirm if they are being truthful, and to discover any dangers that the A may expose you and your family to, and to monitor the progress of your plan. See if the frequency of calls slows, if they seem to be ending it or not, etc.<p>Beyond that, it's just torture to yourself to find out more. It becomes obssessive, it becomes destructive to you. I know. It did with me.<p>I dug up all her email accounts, passwords and codes to her banks, airline sites, credit cards, phone accounts, everything! And it became an obsession; I wasn't finding out anything new, but I just HAD TO KNOW...I recorded her calls, recorded her in the car, slipped a mini-recorder in her purse, calling card accounts, just nutty!<p>And what did I accomplish; nothing really. I know it's going on; knowing all the gory details changes nothing. And now, if I want to check on her during recovery (when we get there...) it'll be very difficult since I scared her so much she dug in deeper. Now she only uses pay-phones, and anonymous calling cards, and a PO Box somewhere that I can't find, so it'll be very, very hard to check on progress.<p>Just my thoughts. Hope this helps someone.

All great responses everyone thanks! especially Space Case.
I can relate to how you felt. I confronted her with my "feeling" that something was going on. He's just a friend. Lie I looked at cell records and house phone records.I asked her how many times they spoke."Once or twice a month" Lie. Try three to four times a week especially holidays like Valentine's day, birhtdays etc. When was the last time you spoke to him? "Over a month ago" Lie. Day before. I asked early on if she ever saw him. "No" Lie. Now its well we went to lunch a few times. I can just imagine where this may be leading. So far I have categorized this as an EA but who knows the truth.
Spacecase, like you I have figured ways to determine and monitor truth. It is heartbreaking because just as you think you are making progress you learn that "she is thinking of him 10 times a day" or "when she sees him she melts" or they are making secret plans to meet for lunch.<p>Thanks all

yes...space case is right...I think in my case, what stood me well was two things...<p>My W has a conscience, and wouldn't confess all, but confessed much...and told me she was fighting it...<p>and secondly, I would ask, get some lies, some truth, and not push after that. I used it not to accuse,but to judge progress.<p>When she finally sat down and told me much, fortuntately there were no physical gory details (and since he lives 1000 miles away), she told me much...she was the pursued, not the pursuer...and since most of the cel phone checks I saw were incoming calls, that jives with my "intelligence information".<p>I no longer need "the whole truth" I think she told me as much as she thinks I can bear, and she can bear to admit to now. IF she feels a need to tell more, that's ok too. But mainly, I am glad that I didn't make things so confrontational that the reconciliation was too difficult for her to contemplate. In the end, we want to fall in love again...don't make the healing process to painful to consider it...

cwmac, I'm glad I could help, but to be honest with you, my WW is still lying, I have not been able to do anything about it, and I'm hoping thru counseling with Steve Harley we may begin to make progress.<p>In the meantime, here's something that might be helpful. I don't remember where it cam from, but it's probably from some book or tape ad)'<p>5 Examples of Deceit Detection<p>Eye Movement Detection
When a person thinks, he uses different parts of his brain depending upon the information that is being accessed. This process can be observed by watching his eyes.
For right-handed people visual memories are accessed by the eyes going up and to the left. For a left-handed person, it's the reverse: the eyes go up and to the right. When a right-handed person seeks to create an image or fact, his eyes go up and to the left. And the reverse is true for the left-handed person.
Why don't you try this? Do you recall what color your first car was? If you had to think about it, there's a good chance that if your right-handed, your eyes went up and to the left. Your eyes went up and to the right if you're left-handed.
You can use this technique in any conversation to determine if the person is creating or recalling information. Simply watch his eyes and you'll know whether he's recalling an event that has already occurred, or making up a story about something that has never happened. <p>Psychological Reaction Detection
People may use inanimate objects to "cover" themselves. Just as a person uses objects to hide from physical harm, when a person feels uncomfortable, they may involuntarily place barriers between themselves and the source of discomfort. Pillows, cups, they are all objects that might be used, as well as talking from a different room, where the walls act as barriers... <p>Speech Detection
A guilty person is always uncomfortable with silence... If you ask someone a question, notice if he/she adds more information than necessary... When telling a lie, a person is not happy with a short answer, he will add more to justify the lie to himself as well as the listener... If someone answers in an interrogation style format he is usually lying... <p>Gestures Detection
Finger pointing almost always gives a sense of authority or justification... A person telling a lie will have a hard time using this commanding gesture... <p>Body Movement Detection
When a person's hand goes to their face when responding or making a statement, it is sometimes a sign of deceit. Covering the mouth while talking usually is a screen, an unconscious attempt at hiding words... Any sort of uncommon contact with the face is an indication that the person is not being honest... Be careful not to confuse these signs with a person's common conversational traits...

Bluebird;<p>I've seen your same exact post many times on these boards, and I may be wrong, but it appears as a thinly-veiled attempt to push your products & services.<p>I'm not sure that's appropriate here, and it's probably against the board's user agreement.<p>Just a thought.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>Bluebird;<p>I've seen your same exact post many times on these boards, and I may be wrong, but it appears as a thinly-veiled attempt to push your products & services.<p>I'm not sure that's appropriate here, and it's probably against the board's user agreement.<p>Just a thought.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Spacecase,<p>I am just trying to help cwmac and the countless other people who are in similar circumstances by cutting and pasting the same post. I am not the only marriage builder who does this in attempt to make finding support and feedback as easy as possible. <p>I am a for-real BS with four little kids. My site is one of few places where people who have been cheated on because of porn, chatting, e-mail etc can go and be supported via reading articles, participating in a discussion group and looking at numerous other links. It was one of many things I could do to work through my own pain because of my H's infidelity, using my talents as a writer and computer geek. By the way, I am also a registered nurse. <p>Considering I have been here for a year now, not once has anyone from marriagebuilders, either the sheriff or the Harley's said anything to me about this nor has any other marriagebuilder. I think a lot of people have found the resources I have provided in my links to be helpful. I hear that here on the boards and I hear it a lot privately.<p>The support I have found over the last year here and at other places has been remarkable. I feel that by helping others in a variety of ways, it not only helps them heal but it helps me heal too.<p>Spacecase, I do not wish to hijack cwmac's thread. You now know a little bit about me, my trials and tribulations and my motivations, none of which are inappropriate for this forum. If you wish to discuss this with me further, please e-mail me privately at webmaster@bustedyouonline.com<p>Sorry cwmac for having to post this here.<p>Peace,<p>Bluebird