My WW has been having an affair since June 2001. Her EA/PA had a chance to work on its own without outside interference for a long time before D-day (3/12/02). They had a chance for the passion to flair up to the highest point before D-day. They had a chance to see who they really are. They had a chance for REAL LIFE to seep in.<p>I am new to this forum myself so please excuse me if I stick my foot in my mouth again. I tell you the following IMHO: Unfortunately for you, you have found out about this prior to the A getting really heated up. You need to decide if you are strong enough for the next phase of their relationship because I fear that this will last quite a while maybe as long as my WW. You need to set a time period in your mind for Plan A, your boundary. In order to keep her now, you are going to have to lose her. Try to get to the point we you can accept the fact that your M will not work. This is what I had to do to keep my sanity. Try your best to forgive her for what she has done and will do. If you can not get to this state of mind, it will be really hard to prevent LB's from happening.<p>About telling anyone about the A, try to find one or two friends whose opinions you trust. Someone who has gone through this before. I do not recommend a woman. IMHO: Other than this message board and your friends, I do not think it is wise to talk to anyone else. This will only hurt your chances of getting back together again. Try to think of your WW as a friend. <p>This was very very hard for me. It was not until I was able to do all of this before I was really able to be successful at Plan A. Remember that part of Plan A is working on yourself.<p>My WW still will not give up the OM, but we are making strides. She is becoming more a more receptive. (She called me at least 4 times today [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Good luck with all of this and keep posting.

onward,
You said you and your wife have read over this site, has your wife read other post from BS's and listen to how they feel and the pain they are going through, maybe it would help her to see your pain.

She is slowly reading SAA and half-heartedly filled out an EN questionaire. She has not visited the site and now that I am posting I don't think I would recommend it to her. She would probably see my comments about OM as a big LB since she is still in the thick of the fog. I don't think she feels any remorse right now and went so far as to suggest that "her situation" is my fault.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by onwardandup:
<strong>I guess my biggest problem is that she continues to carry on the relationship and refuses to talk about it (I have not asked since last thursday) </strong><hr></blockquote><p>This is completely "normal" WS behavior. What have you observed about her behavior since you stopped asking? Does it make things better or worse when you demand that she talk about it? What are you hoping to accomplish by talking about it?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>while believing she has a right to live in the same house and act as if she is just trying to figure out what she is going to do.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>She does have a right to do that. If you have joint tenancy or ownership, she can probably stay there as long as she likes unless you obtain a court order to the contrary. WS involved in an A are selfish, self-serving, deceptive, and heedless of the feelings of others. That will likely be the characteristics of her behavior until SHE decides to do otherwise.<p>You cannot MAKE her do what is right, reasonable, kind, marriage-building, nurturing to her child, etc. You would just be wasting your time and LBing her. Better to vent to us who can commisserate with you and help you figure out how best to handle the horrible feelings that go along with this awful situation.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>She tries to be nice to me and doesn't start any substantive conversations - acts like we are roomates.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>That is the level of R she is willing to have with you right now. All you can do is accept that. You cannot force her to want a deeper R with you. You can demonstrate to her through Plan A what a deeper R with you could be like, but that is the only influence you are likely to have at this point.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>All of her real conversations are with the OM. I plan on continuing plan A for a while but when she talks she states that she is planning on staying on her job forever. Since I know this is unacceptable for me and have told her that, it hurts that she seems to think this is not important.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, all of it hurts, all of it sucks. We all can attest to that. The job issue will not be relevant unless and until SHE decides she wants to work on marital recovery, so don't waste your time and energy on that.<p>If you know that is a non-negotiable boundary for you (as it was for me as well), then you can just relax about it, knowing that if she ever offers to join you in recovery, you can let her know that there can be none as long as she is having contact with OM, and since her job requires that, that means finding a different job. You can cross that bridge if it ever comes.<p>In my case, my H got laid off, so that problem was solved before I had to make a decision about the M based solely on that boundary. I did tell him on D-day that the job would have to go if there was to be any hope of recovery.<p>If she already knows you have that boundary, then there's no need to make any demands about it. Either she will choose to work a viable plan of recovery, or she won't. In the meantime, as in my case, anything can happen. The OM could break up with her, fire her, who knows? But there's no reason to worry about that while the A is ongoing.

I am sorry that you have become part of this melodrama. Some people on this board use the word "fog" to excuse the betrayer from being able to think and behave rationally. I don't agree completely with this view. While it may be true that they may be "in love" with the affair partner the action by the betrayer is a result of a complete disrespect for the spouse. The pursuit by the bs is seen as a weakness and as pathetic by the betrayer. Now the question is how do you get this respect back. Unfortunately you cannot while the affair is going on. Now this is where it gets trickey. The affair is only an affair if it can be kept on a fantasy mode but in order for the fantasy to continue it needs to keep the marriage alive. The marriage feeds the fantasy by giving the lovers a common struggle to defend their love against those horrible people ( the husband or wife) who would break them up. If you remove that obstacle and tell your wife she can go to her lover and you will move on with your life the affair changes to a relationship which has to deal with reality of making a decision based on loss of financial security, age differences, background, support of family members etc. That is why I am a believer in the "tough love" approach. Let the betrayer know that you love her and that you are willing to work on the marriage but will let her go since you cannot accept her inappropriate behaviour . Message being that you will not accept any further disrespect while married to her. Now some people may say that this is a LB. I don't believe so. It is human nature to take advantage of a situation if one can get away with it. It is also human nature when faced with a crisis i.e. divorce, to look within oneself and hopefully return to the marriage. The other reason that I feel the tough love approach makes sense is because even though the betrayer is in a fog the betrayer knows down deep that the affair is not a true reflection of reality. Why do think these people try to hang on to their marriages while they are in an affair because they know the whole thing is unreal.<p>[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: tomaz ]</p>

Well I want to thank everyone for thier support. Unfortunately I let things get to me too much. To make a long story short my car also lost its transmission last Friday and last night while I was outside having a cigarette watching her on the phone I got sprayed by a skunk (yes this is hard to believe but true [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>So while waiting today for replies in the depths on everything going on around me I made a bad decision. I went to the OM's house and confronted him. I tried to be calm, but when he started lying I lost my temper and yelled at him. I made a pretty good scene and I think he was scared. <p>Needless to say this was stupid and a big LB. I called my wife after this and let her know what happened and told her it was OK to come home. (I'm not sure where she was but she may have been there anyways with the car hidden).<p>She came home and seemed more appalled at what I did versus angry. I think she is still not sure what to make of me now that I have opened up my emotions and let it all hang out. Yes, this is one of my problems in that I was someone who bottled things up and was generally unemotional. Although, I know what I did was wrong in some ways I still feel good about myself. I might have chosen the wrong place to vent (on these boards would be better) but at least I am venting and having recognized it as such I can work on focusing my feelings in a more appropriate manner.<p>As for our conversation, it was pretty much the same. I did all of the talking and bared my soul, while she said little. I even shared with her the letter than I sent to her sister.<p>She at least now has heard what I have had to say for the millionth time and I think she may have heard a little of it. She wouldn't hug me when she went to bed, but at least we didn't argue.<p>I guess its back to Plan A tommorrow.

FYI - she didn't call him tonight as far as I know. Nothing to get my hopes up, but maybee the bright headlights of a speeding truck cleared enough of the fog so she understands a little about what this is doing to me (or should I say what I am letting it do to me).

Hello, O.<p>Here's what I want to say about this whole mess: Stay away from skunks (meaning, stay away from the OM's house). Probably not such a great idea, but hey - we all make mistakes. <p>At the same time, stop and think.<p>So much of your energy is going towards monitoring what your wife is doing, you have nothing left for yourself. I know it seems impossible to let go of the urge to pursue her, bare your soul, etc., but you really need to. It's not getting you anywhere, and I don't think any of this is going to make her think clearly - you're running the risk of making the OM look a) like a victim, and b) safer and more attractive, because she's getting a lot of relationship talks, confrontations, and drama from you. <p>That's the ***** about these programs - you have to stick with them to give them a chance to work. You really have to focus on yourself, not on the A, and make yourself better, stronger, more hopeful for your future(and I mean YOUR future, not necessarily yours and Amy's), because that's the only way she's really going to want to stay with you and give him up. I know how goal-oriented you are. If you want a good chance to make your marriage work, and you want to use this program to do it, you have to keep your goal in front of you at all times. You have to be willing to get nothing from her at all, until she's ready to change.<p>I've been through this too, and although I used these methods and didn't get the result I was hoping for, eventually something important happened - I stopped pursuing my husband - stopped the long talks, telling him how much I loved him and how much I was trying, etc. I found myself in the process. It was worth it. <p>I hope at some point you just start trying to figure out what you are going to make of your life, now that the life you thought you had is gone. You are about much more than your marriage. You went back to school because it was challenging and satisfying, and brought you closer to what you really wanted to do with your career. Don't let that slide. You're a great Dad, and I know you are devoted to your daughter. You have courage, you're a good person, you're honest. You will eventually be happy again, whether or not you and Amy are still together down the road. <p>I'll bet you have family who are there for you 1000%, and friends who love you and would do anything for you - good times or bad. You're going to be okay, I promise. Now go work on your paper. H.

Bumping it up for you.

onwardanup<p> I was going to check on you today and find you have had a very eventful day, I am sorry about the skunk, i am sure that was an awakening to be sure,
We are only human, dont be too hard on your self about the OM , you are under a lot of stress and these things happen.
Just take a deep breath and start over.
You have been doing really well, I am sorry your wife seems to be throwing this in your face, I would guess she was wondering when you would explode.. now she knows and didnt help her or you.
Hang in there, and pray it will give you comfort above all else

Well, This won't be easy and sounds as if a very BIG plan A is in order. Not that it always works but it might help. You are up against a young wife and an older boss that influences her with raises and conversation. It won't last and she should leave the office. I know not easy.
A nice mothers day gift along with a touching card might go a long way. Try sending flowers to the office on monday from your "Loving Husband". Just once every other week. You need to reach her. As for this OM P_O_S. stay away from him , you might want to deliver the first groupo of flowers in person and let him see you.
Go slow, don't rush her.

Well yesterday morning she was still kind of cold, but that is to be expected. The only thing she kept saying is "promise me you won't do this again". I was still hot under the collar and matter of factly said that I was probably not the only one who realized what is going on. I stated that while I was initially blind to the situation that was because I was too close to see it. I told her that everyone in the office probably has there own suspicions since they are uninvolved bystanders. I didn't say this to hurt her but wanted to let her know that while she may believe that nobody knows what is going on, this is probably not the case. She seemed to be deep in thought after I said this and when I left for school she still didn't want to hug me.<p>She didn't call all day and she had been doing this over the last few weeks. She did call briefly and reached me at home before she left work to see how our daughter was doing.<p>Last night was more of the same, no LBs but no real interaction. With all of the tension I don't think either of us was in a state to talk or be around each other.<p>She went to her (what was our) room early and took a bath and went to bed without taking her cell phone and calling him.<p>This morning the tension was a little dimminished as a good nights rest seemed to do us both good. I told her that I was making progress on my school work (somewhat true, but progress to me means I started to write one of the papers that was due last week) and she seemed pleased that I was working on getting things done. When I left I gave her a hug and she at least hugged me back and rubbed my hand. I told her I love her and left for school.<p>At least it seems that I can start working on Plan A again. I realize when you LB (which I did in a big way) it puts you back to square one and everyone has clearly stated this to me. Unfortunately, this is lesson some of us have to learn the hard way. I'm not being hard on myself, I realize I am human and we all make mistakes. In this case while I didn't make good choices, I am happy that I allowed my emotions to flow and did not bottle them up inside and let them eat at me. As I get better at this hopefully I learn better ways to express what I am feeling.

Sorry, Adam. I have to disagree. O, I don't think it's a good idea to send flowers to the office, and definitely not a good idea to bring them there in person. Sounds like pursuit, and most people here would tell you that tactic doesn't work. <p>hang in there.

onwardandup,
Hi, most folk here won't agree with me but I think you did the only thing possible by confronting your wife's boss. He has a history of screwing his female employees and it will certainly be him that ends this affair with your wife. Unless you come out of this a hero by bringing him down as a man your options look pretty grim.
Find out everything you can about him. Use the information to wreck his business, continue to confront him. Write to your wife telling her you love her but she is breaking the rules with this [censored]. File for divorce and go for sole custody of
your daughter.
If you let this affair go on all you will get out of it at best is a very secondhand depressed wife.

Just a quick update. It seems that WW has cut back on the contact with OM since my outburst this week (or it may be he has cut back the contact). We did have a short conversation last night and she stated she is very confused but is trying to figure things out.<p>We were intimate this morning, but like the problems Dreamland has had I would have to say we did not connect like we need to. I still have no idea how this will all turn out but at least it seems I haven't ruined everything with my actions.<p>Olderandwiser -<p>As for continuing to seek ways to affect the OM, I don't think that is the way for me right now. While I don't agree with his role in the situation, I also have to consider that it may very well have been my WW that initiated things. Thinging about what I know of him (he has never fired an employee, and seems to be exteremely adverse to any type of conflict) it is also possible he is just a loser in this situation and in life in general. I by no way condone his actions, but if we go to court he will pay the price.

Good post. You're handling yourself really well. How did Mother's Day go?

Just the latest and greatest news.<p>My wifes contact (at least the calls) with the OM still seems to be greatly reduced if not stopped over the weekend.<p>I am still trying to meet her needs and at least on Mothers Day I started off on the right foot. I got her breakfast in bed, a customized card I created and hanging flowers for the porch. We had better luck meeting each others SF needs and this was a big improvement.<p>The rest of the day she kind of returned to cold and distant but I kept my distance and did not make any LBs. Part of her attitude may be related to the fact our daughter is sick/fussy and cutting teeth.<p>This morning she really pissed me off by giving me an article to read from the local paper about the OM's son (from his first marriage). I guess she still doesn't realize that I don't want hear his name or anything about him or her work. I just don't understand how she can't see that this would make me very mad. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oh well, she is going to visit her mother and sister out of town with our daughter Wednesday through Sunday. I can just try to work a good plan A over the next few days and hope she can clear her mind a little when she is away from it all. At least is may be possible that she won't spend the time talking to the OM I(which was my biggest worry).<p>I did go see a lawyer on Friday, just to see where I stood since she has already taken this step. At least I was told my position is very strong and I should make out better than her in almost every facet of a divorce. This is not what I want, but I felt I needed to protect myself and make sure I did nothing to hurt my position.

On a positive note (a small one). My WW actually saved the card I gave her for Mothers Day. The last card I gave her with flowers a few weeks ago went straight into the trash. Granted it was not as personal as this one, but that hurt a lot.<p>Not to jump to any conclusions, but if this one had gone into the trash, I would have been very mad and it would have shown me that everything I have been saying and doing were having no effect. I don't see this as a hugh positive step, but at least it wasn't a step backwards.

It looks like progress, but remember, this is like a roller coaster. You will have other downs. Don't take it personal, it's going to happen. Brace yourself for it, make it safe for her to talk to you. Make sure that she understands that you love her by extending your love even when she talks to him or worse. SHE NEEDS TO KNOW THAT YOU ART THE BETTER MAN BY THE WAY THAT YOU TREAT HER. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Not to jump to any conclusions, but if this one had gone into the trash, I would have been very mad and it would have shown me that everything I have been saying and doing were having no effect. I don't see this as a hugh positive step, but at least it wasn't a step backwards. <hr></blockquote><p>I disagree, I don't think it would have shown that what you have done is a waste. After three months on Plan A, my wife is JUST STARTING to respond but she often slips back, is distant, says things that hurt me, and ignores the things I do for her. <p>Some bad times will come, she may backslide, but DON'T GIVE UP, DON'T LB. Don't give ultimatums. They usually don't work. Express love, and back it up by your actions. <p>Just my opinion,
SS

Still Seeking - <p>Thanks for the reality check. I think we all want things to get better as soon as possible and make ourselves crazy looking for positive and negative signs. <p>I know that even if we start down the path of trying to work things out it will be a long road, but it is nice to dream good thoughts. I guess the downside is that these thoughts just set me up for more pain when things don't go as planned.<p>My IC says the same thing, don't get to hung up on what she is doing and instead focus on what I do. I appreciate the reinforcement of these wise thoughts, they help me keep my focus on what I am trying to do without LBing (plan A).