My story is long but it is well worth the length.
My w and I separated this time last year. She said she needed space because she didn't know if she loved me or not. I was devasted for this all came as a suprise to me. I mentally went through a nervous breakdown, was on antideps and seeing a counselor. The first horrible encounter we went through was when 3 days after I moved out of the house my wife had a man over. I was "driving by" the house and seen the mans car.(yes I know this was wrong). I continued to go into the house after this and physically fought the guy. My wife received a restraining order after that. I didn't want to have anything to do with her after that. I then went out of town for a while and while I was gone she was calling me stating how she missed me and can we start talking when I came back. I fell for it and the strenght I finally was getting was drained again. She started talking to the guy again and started to became very nasty to me. After this guy she meet another that I had to see when I was dropping my kids off one time. Nothing happened this time. No fights. i just left disgusted. Another guy I didn't see, but when I was supposed to pick up my kids one time they were at the babysitters. I asked her why and she said she had company. The kids were late being picked up for a married man she was sleeping with. I went and picked the kids up from the babysitters and take them home because the guy all of a sudden left. When I got to the house she hadn't bothered picking up. Her underware and clothes were on the floor and the bed was messed up and she had no underware on. This hurt. She would tell me how she pleases men. Things that she does with them and I still loved her. The last guy she was seeing got her pregnant. This is when she wanted me back for good, but by this time I had someone else. But, I went back to her. She ended up losing the baby, but we seemed to be ok. I moved back home and things seemed good. I knew/know I loved her, but I had horrible thoughts in my head. Thoughts of how many men were in my bedroom and my house. Thoughts of how I felt when she left me and how she was. These things took a toll on me. Granted, I dated women when we were separated, but this women left me and introduced the whole thing of dating other people to me. I was still hurt, but I was happy because I had her back. So what do I do? Well, I figured I would feel better about the men she had in my bed if I went and did the same thing. She had a so called friend who she works with who is not very attractive who was flirting with me and I, like an idiot acted. The girl got my work number some how and called me to tell me my wife won't be home this evening (last Thursday) and do I want her to come over. I, like a fool said yes. About an hour went by and I was having bad thoughts. I attempted to call the girl back to say forget this, but she wasn't there and I could ask for the girl because it's my wifes job also. So I didn't do anything. The girl was waiting at my house after work and I was extremely nervous. I kept saying you shouldn't be here, we can't do this. This is wrong. I told the girl I need to change out of my work clothes because I have to mow the grass. So as I went upstairs she was right behind me. Saying "my w won't find out", "think about how many times she had men in here", and "I havn't known her for that long". I was weak and listened to this crap and started the inevitable. Low and behold, who walks in? No one else but my wife catching me in the act with her unattractive "friend". Does it matter if she's unattractive-- no? Does anything matter at this point-- no? How could I have been so stupid. The pain I feel right now is almost unbearable. I'm still in the house, but we havn't slept together. She's very hurt. Very! She holds it in around other people, but let's me have it. I don't expect anything from her. She says she doesn't know what she's going to do yet. She doesn't know if she can get the vision out of her head and I understand about visions. I don't think we'll get through this one and it's my fault. I was very stupid. I can't blame this on anything but my own stupidity. I tried to explain to my w how I felt at the time and the reason why I "thought" what I was doing was justifiable and she says this is twice as bad as her leaving me. It is and I know it, but good people make bad decisions sometimes and that's what happened to me. She won't let me touch her, and I can barely talk to her. Is she going to get through this? Am I? I can only imagine how she feels and I know how I feel. She says for now as far as she's concerned we are separated and she's trying to figure out if she can still be with me. I've been pleading with her day and night, but she doesn't want to here it. I'm just trying to show her that I'm in love with her, but I made a horrific mistake. I asked her if we can attempt to get through this together and she says she can't right night. It's to soon. I feel it is to soon also. The biggest plus here is we are still in the house together, but the cloud that lingers in the house is very dark. At times she talks, but then the pain comes out and I completly understand because I did this. What should I do? She said to give her time, but she doesn't know if she can forgive me because we were starting new already. I only hope and pray she forgives me for what I've done.<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Mr.d4dumb ]</p>

d4d:<p>GET COUNSELING FOR BOTH OF YOU! If your W won't go with you, go yourself.<p>You are both a mess, and have a long way to go, but it is interesting that after what's happened, you're both willing to try to work things out. But you desparately need professional help to do that.<p>There are a lot of folks on this board that can share similar experiences with you, plus the home page has excellent articles and advice that you should read. You should also pick up some of the publications, by the authors of this site and by others that you will find references to on this forum. <p>Hang in there. You have a very tough battle ahead to save your M, but you both appear willing to give it a go. And remember, even if you DV, you'll still need to have done the "work" so that you can both be better partners in future relationships. Good luck!

I think she does want to work it out but what she seen is so bad it's overwelming her right now. I'm really suprised she hasn't left or kicked me out myself.

d4d:<p>This isn't surprising. Seeing the act and knowing about it are two different things. The "movies" will play over again in her mind for some time. And so will yours of what you saw, know, and even what you imagined happened between your W and her OMs. <p>Be as loving a H as you can. But don't wait to get started with counseling!

I just got off the phone with my w. She sounded in pretty good spirits and we talked for a bit. She' going to try and get threw it, but she needs time and she says even with time she doesn't know if she can. I told her we can do it together and she stated she doesn't know right now what she wants. She wants to have time and that word "space". I'm starting to feel like I did last year when she left me and I hate the feeling. I skrewed up something good and the issues I had should have been dealt with differently. She also says she doesn't know if she could ever trust me again. I told her I'm willing to stick out the time it would take for me to regain her trust, but she said she doesn't know if she wants to deal with it. Maybe I'm asking to much from her right now. She says she does know that I'm sorry and that I'm hurting from this ordeal also and even that I love her, but things are still fresh. I can't ask to much from her after her seeing the act. If she stays with me I'm truelly a blessed person. If she leaves, I deserve, but I hope and pray she wants to stay with me. She says right now she didn't ask me to leave for the kids, but I know if she really wanted me to leave, kids or not I would be gone because it's happened before.

d4d:<p>Um... ...it doesn't seem like you two have ever adequately dealt with HER As. How can she put this all on you and this recent event? Has she forgotten what she did to you?<p>That's why I said before that you're both messed up. And why, even if you divorce, you BOTH have to sort through all your issues and problems that led to both of you having As before you can have a snowball's chance in the frying pan of Haydes of having a rewarding relationship with anybody else again, or with each other...

She doesn't think she had anything to do with this. True, I did the action, but I'm still feeling that this is the person who up and left me for broke last year and I continued to try and get her back even after I had moved out. I have two friends (a male and a female) who state she deserved this and I shouldn't feel so bad because she wasn't thinking about me when she left me. I told her this lastnight about what she did to me and she became more upset and told me to just shut up, so I did. You are right. We need counseling and prayer.

d4d:<p>Your friends are wrong. Nobody "deserves" to be abandoned for another person. And, a "retaliatory affair" or a "revenge affair" is actually worse than the "original" affair, because it's premeditated to hurt the spouse that had an A. <p>No, you both "deserve" nothing but a chance to improve yourselves so that this kind of behavior doesn't repeat itself. If all goes well (the goal of this site), you will improve yourselves in time to save your love for each other and save your M.<p>Good luck to you.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>d4d:<p>Your friends are wrong. Nobody "deserves" to be abandoned for another person. And, a "retaliatory affair" or a "revenge affair" is actually worse than the "original" affair, because it's premeditated to hurt the spouse that had an A. <p>No, you both "deserve" nothing but a chance to improve yourselves so that this kind of behavior doesn't repeat itself. If all goes well (the goal of this site), you will improve yourselves in time to save your love for each other and save your M.<p>Good luck to you.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I agree with everything you said except the thing about so-called 'revenge A' beign worse because it's premeditated. Both are equally bad and stupid. And what about the WS? didn't she know what she would be doing to her H by having all those men in her bed so many times? Of course she did but she CHOSE NOT TO CARE and continued with not one but many lovers in front of him and that to me is worse than his so called 'revenge A' because she saw the deep hurt and pain her H experienced when he discovered her PA yet did nothing to stop it and rubbed it against his face by continuing with it. That is pre-meditation in my book.<p>The WS (by continuing the A(s), and beign nasty to the BS)has destroyed the BS and left him/her more vulnerable than the WS was prior to the A. If the BS falls into an A is not because of revenge but because his/her self-esteem has been destroyed to such a degree that even the advances of a homeless person are welcomed by said BS. If revenge was actually the reason for his A then he would have made certain that his W caught him in the act of betrayal and rejoiced in the pain she would have experienced. Just the opposite, he did not want his wife to find out and once she did he apologized to her and was remorseful for what he did (unlike her).<p>If A's are akin to an addiction then his W multiple PA's appear to be the signs of a sexual addiction that is going to be beyond the scope of MB's plans A and B to resolve. And like BryanP is famous for saying, she has endangered her life and his life with enough of her sexual encounters that an STD is sure to be passed on to her and then to him. His W will not become the faithful W he deserves until she recognizes that she has a serious problem that is destroying her H, her children, and ultimately will destroy her too.<p>The reason why I'm passionate about this is because my xWW did almost exactly the same thing that Mrd4dumb W has done to him. Granted that I did not have a so-called 'revenge A' (even though there was a single female coworker that had proposition me before) because I thought about what it would do to my daughters. I pleaded with my xWW to please get some counseling but she got nasty and told me to f*** off and that she did not care what I or our daughters thought about it. So I had no choice but to divorce her and petition for sole custody on the basis of parental neglect (subsequently a social service worker was sent to investigate and filed a report confirming that there was evidence of neglect). Thankfully the judge agreed that the best interests of our daughters were best served by having me as their custodial parent. My xWW was so shocked because she never expected that she would loose what she thought she had and now, for the first time in years, she has to work to survive and pay child support. She has finally taken a serious look at her life and is now in therapy to control her sexual addiction. Too bad that it had to take a divorce and loosing custody of her daughters to bring her back to reality, but that is sometimes the way things work out for the people that do not want to face the consequences of their actions towards others.<p>But you are right 2long, he and his W need serious counseling, especially because they have children that are beign witnesses to all this crap that their parents are engaged in.<p>And the last point is that this smells like a setup by his WW and her ugly friend. I wouldn't be surprised if it was.<p>Joe<p>[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

Joe:<p>I sit corrected.

Today I feel worst the worst I ever had. I'm really depressed. The reality of the possibility of us not being together because of my mistake is sinking in deeply.
Last night was a plus. She slept in the bed with me, but she still won't let me touch her. Not even to hold her. This hurts so bad because I'm playing the tape of what I did over and over again and I can't seem to stop.
Her brother called lastnight and was very nasty. He and I were close, but I know how he is and he wants to fight me. I told my wife about it this morning and she said he'll get over it before he gets back into town. I don't care about him. I want her to be over it. I know it won't happen over night, but not being able to hold her is killing me.

d4d:<p>She is staying with you!!! Don't let the significance of that escape your attention.<p>This is going to take time. A LOT of time for both of you. Be patient. GET counseling. Consider antidepressant drugs, if your doctor feels you need them.<p>Take care and remember: She's still with you!

Ok - just chiming in as a neutral observer.<p>Mr d: I know things appear to be spinning out of control, but take a deep breath. Yep - you screwed up, and no one is justifying what you did (although I agree with the others, it does smell like a setup).<p>Now before taking all the blame, ask yourself this question. Has your W shown ANY indication of taking responsibility for her previous A's and actions? Has she shown any evidence of remorse, and agreed to work on your M prior to your one night stand? If she hasn't, how is your relationship going to improve regardless of how you deal with your A?<p>Look, I don't know all the issues, but on the surface of what you posted, your W comes across as completely self centered and disrespectful of your feelings. She has the right to go ahead and have as many A's as she wants, but expects you to be faithful. Again, I'm not justifying what you did, but trying to point out the complete HYPOCRACY of your W's view.<p>Take your head out of the sand for just a minute - can you see how screwed up this is? Yes, you both need counseling and prayer. But firstly, I think you BOTH need to decide whether its in your best interests to stay in your marriage. <p>Sorry man, but take a hard, reality check. You seem like you want to move on and get your marriage back on track. I know you love her, but does she really love you? Is she going to continue to treat you and her family like a doormat in the future? If for no other reason, ask yourself these questions for the sake of your kids... <p>Sometimes ONE person has to take the first step to repair a relationship. But at some point, both partners have to want it to work. And that means your W needs to buck up and be accountable.<p>Hey, it may hurt, but its time to stick up for yourself and your family. So stop acting like a lovestruck puppy and start reading some books on infidelity. Read this website. Start doing things for yourself and your kids. <p>Be a man!
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Mrd4dumb<p>Both 2long and gourami12 make very good points and I would urge you to think about them.<p>Joe

My w was showing remorse for what she did. she was trying to make things right, but it was the thoughts that were going through my head. Plus we weren't living together when she was with other people. The thing is I try to explain to her the pain I felt when she left and started seeing other people and bringing them to the home I got with her and she doesn't understand. She told me last July she wants us to date other men and looked at me like I was supposed to be fine with that. Not 3 days after I moved out another man was in my bed, but she just sees what I just did. She says this was supposed to be a fresh start for her and I --- and we weren't together when she was with people and I was seeing people to. I felt I had no choice, but to see other people. I still have some lingering thoughts in my head from the hurt before. I know what I did was not right in the least. It actually is very dispicable and sickning, but she doesn't understand the way I was when she up and left becase she "didn't know if she loved me, or not". I'm still telling her now how much I love her and try to tell her lets work through this together, but she doesn't know she says. I told her what if I wasn't here still trying to make it work and showing you I love you and made a wrong descision a week ago today. what if I didn't even care. All she says is it doesn't matter. So, now I'm taking responsibility for what I've done and trying to gear myself up for the worst. I ask her what she's going to do and she says she doesn't know. She doesn't know what she's going to do. I want to believe if she was going to leave or tell me to leave it would have been done, but it's only been a week also. Thoughts??
I also asked her if she wants to go to counseling and she said we'll talk about it. Maybe!

d4d:<p>You both should DEFINITELY go to counseling. No ifs ands or buts.<p>Another thing to think about here. Even while you were apart, it was inappropriate for either of you to date other people while you are married. Separation is a state of marriage. The only exception would be if you'd agreed to an "open marriage" a concept that I find utterly stupid (but that's me). It doesn't sound like you discussed anything in enough depth that you could have had a "true" agreement on this. <p>Remember, this will take a long time for both of you to get over, if you can. But you can't do it alone. You both need counseling, and NOW. Don't wait another minute.<p>Read all you can, as well. Off this site, from the books, everything about relationships and affairs.<p>Take care,

Thanks for the advice. Today I'm hurting but not feeling as low as I have. I'm definantly still hurting and I know she definantly is NOT ok. We've been talking more but things are still very messed up and will be and I'm prepared for it. I'm gearing up for the long haul and I pray she is to.

Hey, Mrd:<p>
2long is right. Being separated IS NOT a licence to play the field and act like a teenager. Your are not divorced - you are still married. So your W was wrong, wrong, wrong on that score. <p>Ok, you say your wife is remorseful for what she did. What changed her mind after she rubbed your nose in it? <p>Look. You have EVERY RIGHT to have those "thoughts" in your head. You have every right to be hurt. You are a betrayed spouse. And there is no such thing as a "fresh start". No one can sweep the A's under the rug and just start over. You both need to time to commit to one another and heal. And, to top it off, she has basically come out and said her pain caused by your one night stand is justified, but your pain doesn't matter! Excuse me, does this make sense? Isn't this the teapot calling the kettle black? Hey, its ok for me to be hurt but not you?
Get real.<p>Look, nothing you have posted indicates to me that your W is prepared to take responsibility for her actions. Taking responsibility is realizing and validating the pain she has caused you, and committing to do whatever it takes to get your marriage on track. I see a W who can only accept her point of view and that is selfish. Oh sure, she may feel guilty, but there is a big difference between guilt, and accepting responsibility.<p>Look, 2long is also right about the counseling. BUT - it ultimately takes two make it happen. What you REALLY need to do, is take CHARGE of the situation. Grab a spine, and tell her that things are messed up. Tell her that it is unfair for you to take sole responsibility for these problems. Tell her that if she doesn't make a strong committment to the M, backed up by action (i.e. going to counseling), then you should separate so she can figure out what she wants and you cna do the same. In the meantime, if she won't go to counseling, you should go anyway. You don't have to yell this stuff at her, tell her coolly and calmly. Tell her its to protect the love that you have for her.<p>Bottom line - STOP waiting for her to figure it out. She can't. She's proved that. Take Charge yourself. Move into a well thought out action plan. Read Divorce Busting or whatever to get some ideas. <p>Sorry to be harsh, man, I know you love your W. But you have to love yourself too. Get some confidence and show her that when it comes to your marriage, you mean business!!!!

I agree with 2long and gourami12.<p>A separation is not a divorce. If she wanted to have relationships with other men, she should have filed for divorce, but she didn't because she wanted to have her M with you like a lifeline in case she didn't like her new lifestyle. Do you seriously beleive that if one of those other OM gave her more than you in terms of financial, emotional, and sexual support that she would have come back to you? Those OM treated her as nothing more than an easy f*** and she probably realized this and did not like it at all (even so called nymphomaniacs do not like to be treated like this), so she returned to you, the man who truly treated her with love, respect and kindness.<p>A person who is truly remorseful for hurting another person should be more than willing to forgive since s/he has been forgiven.<p>If she can not forgive you for your transgression like you did hers, then I see very little hope in the future of your M. <p>Joe