Hi all,

I've been reading here fcor a week or so, but this is my first post. Recently found out that hubby has been with 12+ prostitutes since Christmas, internet girls and swing clubs. What a dog!! He did the same to his ex-wife but always insisted that it was a huge mistake and would never do it again. I beleived in 2nd chances. What an idiot I am.

I would really like to work things out, but don't know where to being in the rebuild process. The lies and deceptions are still comming out so I guess that until I have the whole story I'llbe on this roller coaster with all of you.

Marriage wasn't perfect (whose is?) and blended families are just hard, but never in a million years would I inflict this filth on him.

I've moved out, with my kids so that I can think again and figure out what to do. I figure that if we reconcile it needs to be a fresh start and I couldn't do it there. The house of pain.

Help!!

<small>[ September 11, 2002, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: SpyWife2002 ]</small>

Hello Spywife, and welcome to MB...
Sorry it has to be under these circunstances...sigh.....<p>Your husband is an addict. You are doing the right thing by setting a boundary that says, no more, and by moving out. However there is hope for restroing your marriage, but the path is difficult.<p>Right now, I wonder, have you been tested for STD's? How are the children? Are they all yours or do you have some together?<p>Have you read, Surviving an Affair, by Dr. Harely? You can order it right from this site at a good discount and it will come in a day or so, depending on where you are in the country. It deals primarily with the garden variety of affairs, but I think you will find it helpful in validating your feelings, and give you a lot of wonderful advice for how to proceed. If you can, get it [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I was caught by the title of your thread. It could have been mine. My husband is a sex addict, strippers, prostitutes, porn, internet affairs. I've been where you are. I want to say I am so sorry for the overwhelming pain you must be in right now. Fill us in a little more, there's lots of people here who can help.<p>Blessings,<p>Cerri

Hi Cerri, thanks for responding,<p>I know he's an addict, but he doesn't believe that and so we will be beginning therapy and surely any therapist will clearly see the addiction.<p>The move out was hard - I wasn't sure it was the right thing to do, but I knew that if I stayed it would be viewed as "she's mad, but it will blow over". He needs help.<p>I'm horribly hurt and in disbelief. Every day I find out a little more. I'd rather be hit with it all at once so I can sort it out and decide what to do with it.<p>We met on the internet - hows that for irony? Been married two years - togather three years. I have 3 kids, he has one. We are both nearly 40.<p>Nope haven't been tested for STD's - it's on my list. Of course he promises it was always with a condom but we know how lies fit into the equation. He got an HIV test and brought me his results. Obviously there are other STD's and I need to make more of a priority. First I had to get out. <p>Have't read Surviving an Affair - it's on my list too, but I read alot from here. He has alot of affair books from his previous marriage (what a joke) and I've been reading some of those. Also read the Shattered Vows artice.<p>So, since you have been where I now find myself - tell me: How long has it been, do you feel safe from it now, and what advice do you have?<p>I've found internet girls, swapping/sharing messages, the prosititutes, porn, a live sex club here in town. He is a classified government worker so he hides most of it by using his work laptop which, of course I can't see because it's classified. It's nonsense. <p>In many ways, I would prefer a classic affair. I'm sure some of you hurt by those would disagree. At least he doesn't have an emotional love attachment to another person. Instead, I've discovered this foul dark side/double life to a person that I knew and trusted.<p>It stinks. You all know that too.<p>We will survive, we will be stronger and smarter. But we will never blindly trust again - I don't think I can.<p>Thanks for all the support here.<p>Spy Wife (isn't that lovely? Gotta do what you gotta do)

Spywife,<p>Well, except for some minor details, your life could be mine! <p>Yes, we met online too. I have 6 kids, 4 at home now, he has one, lives with her mom. I am wife #3. Heard the same stories about his former life of vice and how he "would never do that to me"<p>Oh...... so naive. <p>We've been married just a little over a year and a half. Been together since July of 97. Found out about all the stuff in March of 2000. Took MONTHS to get all the stuff out in the open. And every time there was a new discovery, he would swear that I now knew it all. Uh huh..<p>When I finally got the confession about the hookers out of him, I knew I had all the big stuff. There are still little things that pop up now and again, but they are primarily details more than incidents.<p>I would push very much for a 12 step program. It was a big help to us. <p>Yes, I think that things can get better. We are dealing with other things as well. My h probably has borderline personality disorder, so the whole thing is very complicated. He has anger issues as well, so I've endured lots of abuse besides the sexual stuff.<p>Anyway. SAA will have lots to offer you, and a perspective you won't find other places.<p>I'll have more time tomorrow to visit, but children and dinner call [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You can always find me at the monster thread here at JFO.... you know the one with something like 1700+ posts.<p>Later,<p>Cerri

Every day I find out a little more. I'd rather be hit with it all at once so I can sort it out and decide what to do with it.
<p>goddess, yes!! The lies that go on and on are horrid.<p>surely any therapist will clearly see the addiction<p>I wouldn't hold my breath. Find one that specializes in sexual addiction and marital recovery. <p>Of course he promises it was always with a condom but we know how lies fit into the equation. <p>Something like 70% of STD's are transmitted without regard to condom use. Please get tested soon!<p>In many ways, I would prefer a classic affair. I'm sure some of you hurt by those would disagree. At least he doesn't have an emotional love attachment to another person. Instead, I've discovered this foul dark side/double life to a person that I knew and trusted.<p><p>There is no good way for a spouse to be unfaithful. I thought that way at one time, too. But hearing what others go through with the emotional attachment, well... I dunno, it's tough either way.
You and I have half the population to worry about. <p>How did you find out? <p>OK, leaving for real now [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri

Hey Cerri,<p>It is so nice to find someone who can identify with what I am now living. <p>I told you wrong, we met 4 years ago. Married a little over 2 years. By the way, the kids are all 7-12 years old. <p>What more can you tell me about SAA? The problem is that he may go for me, but it won't be because he believes it about himself. Maybe in going he will find that he identifies with much of what is there. He could probably teach them some new tricks. ;-) Does it operate like AA with meetings and sponsors?<p>Do you believe that your marriage is capable of recovering fully? Maybe be better than before the moral atrophy?<p>What do you mean in your signature about conceded defeat?<p>About the therapist, you have a good point. He told me that after his divorce he did see ask a therapist about it and he siad something along the lines of"you can [censored] sheep for all I care". Nice huh? Good to know that there are paid professionals giving flip advice like that. If it's even true. <p>How did I find out? Well, a year and a half ago I caught him doing some sicko chat stuff and so I learned to be careful. That one we got past. Then several months ago he became secretive, was on his computer constantly, for work he claimed. He had a bag that he took with him (for working out supposedly) everywhere he went. One day he left the bag laying around and I went through it. I found a nice little sex-toy assortment and condoms. He was home and I carried it all downstairs and dropped them in his lap. After that, I dug and just found more and more.<p>Since moving, I haven't gotten INet set up in my new place yet, so after today I can't chat again until Tuesday.<p>Thanks for being a friend.
SpyWife

Hey Spy wife...
Are you a library lurker too???? Are we living parallel lives??? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Oohhhhhh. My story is long. I'll try to make it brief, but I'm not known for that [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Ok, met in 97.... online. I accidentally (yes, really) clicked on a link to internet personals. Spent HOURS reading and laughing, and then decided to search for what I want. Found a few, emailed them, one in particular made me laugh.<p>We got to know each other online, and then on the phone. We met in person after 9 or 10 days, I movd in, with kids after 4 months. (goddess, was I stupid or WHAT??)<p>The verbal abuse started immediately. A lot of - I couldn't do anything right. My kids got the brunt of a lot of it too. H has a D who was just turning 10 at the time, lives with her mom, wife #1. She of course, could do no wrong, got whatever she wanted, and my kids couldn't even have a friend over after school.<p>I knew about the "extracurricular" activities too. Wife #2 had been a work affair. The prostitute and stripper activity went on throughout both prior marriages.<p>After about a year and a half, we moved from his family farm to where we are now. It was a long horrid, arduous, painful, abusive process. I was called every name in the book and accused of conspiring with the RE agent and the buyers.... to do what? I'm still not sure.<p>Things were good for a month after we moved and then got really bad again. The verbal abuse, and occassional physical abuse of my kids was terrible. Finally I told him to get out, or to get help... THAT DAY. He enrolled in an anger mgt. program. <p>I signed up too, and it was pretty cool. A mixed group that was not afraid to discuss stuff. He had been in groups before for his temper, but they were more for men who were court ordered, so they'd talk about beating their wives with weapons and he'd talk about shouting..... not really seen as so bad then.<p>This one was different, and I began to see some changes. That was fall of '99.<p>But the changes were tiny steps. Over the winter things were still bad. On my birthday he left after I called the police because of a huge fight. On New Year's Eve there was another big blow up over his D. And then on SuperBowl Sunday, I took the kids and stayed at a local motel to get away from him.<p>Then in March, we got a phone bill from our old sevice where we'd lived before. For a calling card call. I wouldn't have been at all suspicious because they were notorious about slow billing... but he grabbed it, stuffed it in his pocket and said he'd take care of it.<p>Well, one thing led to another.... turns out it was a call to a hooker.... from the Super Bowl Sunday weekend. Lots of lies on his part, and digging on mine. It took til July to finally get all the big stuff out. That's when he started SAA.<p>Yes, they are like AA.... meetings, sponsors, the whole thing. By this time, he had lost 2 wives, oh yeah I forgot to mention he got fired for online sex stuff at work... one job, and was going to lose me..... because of the addiction. I think he was ready, finally to look at it.<p>Yeah, the stories there might convince your H that he does have a problem. Depends on how confrontational the group is. And yeah, he probably could teach them a thing or two... I worried at first that he would come home with new things that he had to try.... but at the point where he was, it wasn't an issue.<p>We got married in Oct. of 2000. Things were good for 3 weeks. Then it was the obsession with the new job. My needs took last place, and the things he was doing that I hated..... not sexual... but lifestyle things.... went unaddressed.<p>See, we both are MB junkies. Have all the books, been to the weekend, counselled now with Jenn, Steve, and by email with Dr. Harley. There was/is no excuse for not knowing what to do and doing it.<p>He has steadfastly refused to make a plan to meet my needs and to stop procrastinating about eliminating LBers. I fell further and further into w/d. Last fall he said something awful to one of my kids, and I gave him the choice of leaving or counselling with Steve Harley. <p>It was a nightmare. He was supposed to be working a plan to meet needs, faxing twice a week what things he was doing to SH. Instead, he was faxing pages and pages of things that were not true. Not outright lies, but twisted half stories of what was happening in our lives. Pure hate mail.<p>When I posted about it here, someone mentioned that it was obvious signs of borderline personality disorder. I checked some sites. He has 8 of the 9 diagnostic requirements. It's overwhelming.<p>Yeah, my signature line says I conceded defeat. There was an issue about the horses he/we have. It went unresolved for years, in spite of my unhappiness. When he bought hay for them, a year after promising they'd be gone in 6 months... and after assuring me that wouldn't happen. I quit. <p>Do I think that my marriage could recover? From the sexual addiction? Yes. From the abuse? Yes. From the neglect and the apparent inability to get around to what needs to be done? No.<p>It really does take two people willing to do the work. You can lead by example, be honest about how you feel, what you need, and how your spouse's actions affect you. You can do everything right (and I would be the first to say, I haven't done that) but you cannot force another person to do what needs to be done. When you get to that point, you can do a solid Plan B, or you can leave.<p>Right now, I'm in a holding pattern. <p>My h saw several therapists over the years. Since he was not honest with them..... saw one for his anger problem, but never mentioned that's why he was there!!!!..... there was not much progress. He had the best luck with the 12 step group and the anger mgt. group. I think they did a better job of holding each other accountable. Therapists are so focussed on making us feel better and on building self esteem. What a crock! Self esteem comes from making good ethical decisions.... not from feeling better about yourself when you make bad ones.<p>If you don't have children with this man, and are able to support yourself and your children.... are you really sure you want to hang around for the heartache that recovery from any addiction entails?<p>I know that's not classic MB advice... and believe me I am hardline MB..... but it seems that you and the children have been through enough pain. If he was their father, I would be more inclined to push you to work it out.<p>Cerri

Thinking of you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Spywife}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<p>Cerri

Hey Cerri,<p>>Are you a library lurker too???? Are we living parallel lives???
In the summers the kids and I do spend quite a bit of time in libraries, although I'd prefer a couple of hours at Borders.<p>>I movd in, with kids after 4 months. (goddess, was I stupid or WHAT??)
Four months?!! That was quick. We dated a year, lived together a year and then got married. You never know....<p>I'm sorry to hear about the abuse issues. It sounds pretty severe and I'm glad that treatment has helped some. It really is a cycle and your kids and yourself shouldn't have to live like that. Mine doesn't do that - he pouts, and critisizes and can do the silent treatment for weeks. I used to get upset, but then moved into ignoring him until he snapped out of it. Neither was a good response and that is something that needs work. Communication since our marriage has been terrible although we would talk for days when we were dating. I've missed and needed that and I know that is something he was giving to his INet girls instead of me.<p>>D who was just turning 10 at the time, lives with her mom, wife #1. She of course, could do no wrong,
We went thru similar things in blending families. His D is with him half time, and it's been hard on my kids. Her mom raises her by a different set of standards that I have with my children and that caused problems too. When I'd make any fuss, his ex would tell me that her daughter was none of my business - of course she is - I'm her step-mom half time, but I didn't get enough marital support on that one and it still comes up.<p>We talked alot this weekend and I think that I have all of the facts now. He was rather cooperative about answering my questions although he has a really hard time thinking that most men aren't doing this sort of thing or that it is abnormal.<p>>SAA - Yes, they are like AA.... meetings, sponsors, the whole thing.
I did find some groups here in our area and discussed them with him. He is willing to look into it. Not for him but for me. I am hoping that while he's there, he'll find the support and help he needs to admit his issues to himself.<p>>fired for online sex stuff at work.
I know that mine does this from work too. Scary. You'd like to think that when your spouse goes to work, they will be there all day and they will be working. Many of the girls he met, he would leave work early for and meet them in the afternoon.<p>>We got married in Oct. of 2000. Things were good for 3 weeks. Then it was the obsession with the new job.
Our lives have some interesting similarities. We got married Jan 2000, and he immediately started teaching at night and threw himself into that. For the first six months he wasn't there for me or the marriage at all. I hated it.<p>>both are MB junkies. Have all the books, been to the weekend, counselled now with Jenn, Steve
Was the MB weekend beneficial? It sounds like it is. I have found much comfort here in knowing that my feelings are normal, I'm not a psycho and that there is hope. He is open to counseling although we are going with someone locally. He could be talked into the weekend though....<p>>Do I think that my marriage could recover? From the sexual addiction? Yes. From the abuse? Yes. From the neglect and the apparent inability to get around to what needs to be done? No.
>.... are you really sure you want to hang around for the heartache that recovery from any addiction entails?
I don't know if mine is recoverable or not. I know that until I know that answer for sure, I'm not going to give it up. My ex got tangled up with serious drug problems and so I've been down the addiction road before. He wasn't salvageable. If we don't fix our marriage, then this is a second divorce for my kids. There won't be a third. I won't marry again, at least not until they are grown up. So either I fix it, or accept my fate as a single mom for the duration. I've done the single mom program and that isn't fun either. I have to know that I put the work in and made the right decisions for the right reasons.<p>We both seem to be willing to work on things. Believing that you have the willingness and actually putting the work in and getting it done are two different things. Time will tell, but for now, he's still mine. <p>Thanks,
SpyWife
[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>How was your weekend? Ours was not too bad. Did some fun things both with the kids and by ourselves.<p>Yes, the MB weekend was beneficial, but it wasn't anything I didn't already know. By that time I'd been a serious student of the "Harley Way" [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] for four years. There isn't much that I can't quote forwards, backwards and upside down [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I did ask some specific questions that h and I argued about, mostly relating to POJA and annoying behaviors. <p>I'm attending the Fall in Love Stay in Love post seminar workshop of the Smart Marriages convference in Washington DC in July. This time, to get certified as an MB coach. I think it's the same weekend that's offered around the country..... Oh well. <p>So, it sounds as if there is still something in your love bank? It's good that he is willing to check out SAA. Yeah, my h insisted that he was only doing things that "everyone else" was doing too. But then, his concept of everyone else were the guys he knew he hung out at strip clubs, had affairs, ogled women young enough to be their daughters, and paid for sex. He needed to get a differnt set of everyone elses!<p>I hope that before you are willing to live together again, you are sure that he is willing to live with a good plan for recovery. Accountability, 100% 24/7..... time, money, whereabouts. Radical honesty, sharing everything you each know about yourselves, past and present. Avoiding LBers, and meeting needs.<p>Unless he's willing to do those things, your marriage is unlikely to recover. The things that led to him being able to have these affairs will continue. One thing that I'm sure will be an issue is the computer. You'll have to decide how to deal with that. We don't have internet at home for that very reason. And with his new job, he is (I think [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ) very consious of what it was that got him fired before. (He even arranged for a prostitute online at work, for a business trip he was taking.)<p>How are your kids holding up? How much do they know? What about his family, friends, religious leader?<p>Cerri

Hi there, <p>> How was your weekend? Ours was not too bad. Did some fun things both with the kids and by ourselves.<p>I mostly unpacked and tried to get things settled. It's very depressing. H helped with some things but is making a friend of his too high of a priority so he spent alot of time fishing with him. Three times I think. It's a problem because they do more drinking than fishing and then he drives. We talked about it and he knows it's not ok. Took the kids swimming at my parents house on Monday. H and his daughter went too, but he was in a big hurry to leave. Mon night we talked alot about "things". I asked him to write everything down for me - names, places, specifics. He had done that a few days before so we went through it together in detail. It was difficult but now I know everything. One new thing that came out of it was that it started before I thought it had, with an internet girl. They have been seeing eachother weekly since November.<p> > Yes, the MB weekend was beneficial, but it wasn't anything I didn't already know. <p>I think that it would force us to spend a whole weekend working on things without family-life distractions. You know, nobody can get upset and walk away from it as easily as you can when things get ugly at home. Or the cruise.<p> >to get certified as an MB coach. I think it's the same weekend that's offered around the country..... Oh well. <p>That's wonderful. You can practice on me. :-)<p>>So, it sounds as if there is still something in your love bank? <p>I do still love him and I miss the man that I married. I don't always believe that it is fixable though. His priorities need to change drastically.<p>>It's good that he is willing to check out SAA. Yeah, my h insisted that he was only doing things that "everyone else" was doing too. <p>Well it's funny because he doesn't find this unacceptable, but in the document that he wrote for me he wrote about other "normal girls" (as opposed to prostitutes) that he was seeing. I told him that he obviously understands that the other ones are not normal but he says that he didn't mean it like that.<p> >I hope that before you are willing to live together again, you are sure that he is willing to live with a good plan for recovery. Accountability, 100% 24/7..<p>Absolutely. Trouble is promising it and following it through are two different things. He needs to make his family high priority and we need to become friends again. Oh, and that trust thing.<p>>One thing that I'm sure will be an issue is the computer. You'll have to decide how to deal with that. We don't have internet at home for that very reason. <p>That is difficult. I would love to make a no computer agreement but he claims he is working most of the time. I have gotten to access his laptop a couple of times (without his knowledge) and it's not all work. He's put alot of hours into his perversion, emails to internet girls and porn. We need to have INet, for the kids. They use it quite a bit for school. H doesn't use the home computer much for fear that I track it so other than budget he does everything else on his laptop, which has classified work stuff that I'm not supposed to see.<p>> How are your kids holding up? How much do they know? What about his family, friends, religious leader?<p>Mostly the kids know that he had girlfriends. They don't know details. I know that he told his friends that "he went outside of his marriage" so it sounds like he's not the warped puppy that he has been. Religious leader? Well, for ages he hasn't gone to church with us. I go with the kids but not every week. When he asked me to stay a month or so ago, he said that he would convert to Catholic if we stayed together. He could use some faith in his life. Sort of keeps you self-accountable, you know?<p>This week we are going through the EN survey together, so we are just beginning on this MB path.<p>What kinds of follow-up do you do to make sure that nothing else is going on? I worry about that. Since we aren't living together anymore it is easier for him to do now and so I am rying to keep tabs on his activities.<p>I appreciate having you to talk to.<p>SpyWife

Hi!!
I just posted a bunch of stuff about trust and what it takes to regain it on the P's thread. I'll just cut and paste it here.
----
Now, when someone betrays our trust, badly... not just those little things that everyone does on a bad day. But say with something like an affair, then it must be re-earned. Simply because someone says we should trust them, certainly is not reason to say, "Ok, I'll ignore the fact that you cheated, lied, and put the family at risk, and now just trust you again "cuz you say I should."<p>Nooooo. That would be foolish at best. The unfortunate thing is that you, the BS realize taht all too well while the WS is affronted at the thought of not being trusted.... go figure.<p>Amyway, the recipe for reestablishing trust is the same as for recovery and forgiveness.
1. Firm agreement of no-contact
2. Radical honesty.... sharing everything you know to be true about yourselves
3. 100% accountability, time/whereabouts/money 24/7
4. Commitment to avoiding LBers and meeting needs
5. AND the WS showing that there is opportunity to be deceitful and not taking it.
For example: Wife unexpectedly has the afternoon free (electricity is down in bldg. or whatever). She could easily meet with OM (or do something else that you would not like) since it is unlikely that you would know about the afternoon hiatus. Instead, she calls you immediately, tells you of the situation and together you come to agreement on how the afternoon will be spent. Later she is accountable for her time.<p>Doing this kind of thing over and over, showing that there is opportunity that is not taken, will eventually prove to you that she can be trusted. It takes about 2 years, and must be combined with the other conditions. See, the real crux of the matter is that she must PROVE that she is worthy of your trust again. Having deceived you negates any words along that line, it must be done with actions, and that takes time.<p>------<p>I think it would be beneficial to read Surviving an Affair together. The thing is, in order for you to rebuild trust, recover from the affairs, and to lessen the stress on you, the conditions under which it was possible for him to do these things must be eliminated.<p>So, to me it sounds as if that means he will need to find a different job. One that does not require an off limits confidential personal laptop. See, that machine made it possible for him to have what Harley calls a "secret second life." That's a pretty steep price to pay, but one that will be necessary if he is to never engage in this type of behavior again.<p>I think doing the ENq is a good idea, and I think that working on the LBer one might be a better place to start. But until you have a firm no-contact agreement, and I would suggest emails sent from BOTH of you to each of these other women, then any other efforts at recovery are jumping the gun. <p>A no-contact letter should say that he is married, was selfish, deceitful, and thoughtless in his betrayal of you, that he is committed to repairing and restoring the marriage, and that they should never contact him in any way again. If they do attempt to make contact, he will not talk to tehm and will tell you immediately. <p>Their email should be blocked from all his accounts, phone numbers should be changed, and their phone numbers should be blocked as well.<p>It's pretty drastic, but especially in the case of a serial infidelity it is absolutely necessary.<p>I would seriously consider telling his parents and his daughter, not a punishment, but as a way to get them on the side of saving your marriage. Ask for their help in convincing him of the pain he has put you through, and the need to do what it takes to recover.<p>Something else you might find helpful. You can call and talk to Dr. Harley on his weekly radip show. The number is on this site, just click up above where it says radio. I don't know where you are in the country. I'm lucky enough to be able to tune it at home, but you can also listen online. He is wonderful to talk to, and will give you some good ideas... for free!!!<p>Good luck!!!<p>Cerri

Doesn't moving suck?
In my 40 years, I think I've moved about 30 times. ewwwwwww.<p>My mom is moving this weekend and we are taking older kids to help her out. Two small kids are staying with their dad. <p>All I can say is, better her than me!!<p>Good luck with the unpacking and settling in [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri

Hi Cerri,<p>Thanks for all of the great ideas. There are a few that I don't think that he would be willing to do. Tell his family would be out. His daughter knows about "girlfriends though", plus she's only 12. No way he'd consent to telling his mom.<p>He's been at his job for something like 15 years, so I don't know that he would budge on that, but I was thinking of something more along the lines of random-supervised-laptop checks. And not being allowed to use it at home.<p>It was my understanding that the ENq was the starting point, and that made sense to me. Why do you recommend the other first?<p>I really like the emails from both of us idea and I think he would agree to this. I have communicated with one of them. The really on-going one, he says he got rid of everything and doesn't have it. I have a tough time beleiving that he wrote to her for 6 months and can't remember her address but he says he always replied.<p>The Prostitues were "reused" also, I'd love to talk to them.<p>The phone # chage he won't be too excited about, but he might do that for me. Much of this was done on cell phones.<p>As far as blocking the addresses, that's good too. Although he has many email accounts. I suppose if he was dirty enough, he could just open a new one for them. Of course that would be a deal-breaker and we'd be done.<p>You are good at this. Thanks.<p>SpyWife

There are a few that I don't think that he would be willing to do. Tell his family would be out. His daughter knows about "girlfriends though", plus she's only 12. No way he'd consent to telling his mom.<p>Uhhhhh...... no one said he had to be happy with the idea. Although I would save that for later. If he is agreeing to no-contact, counselling and/or SAA then it might not be necessary. The idea is to end the affair, to bring it into the light of day. Affairs, like abuse, only thrive when they are hidden. Once exposed, they tend to die a natural death.<p>He's been at his job for something like 15 years, so I don't know that he would budge on that, but I was thinking of something more along the lines of random-supervised-laptop checks. And not being allowed to use it at home.<p>Does he travel? the thing is, he'll need to decide, which is more important to salvage, a job or a marriage. If the circumstances f the job made it possible to have the affairs, then the job needs to go, or the circumstances be altered somehow. Checking the laptop might work. <p>It was my understanding that the ENq was the starting point, and that made sense to me. Why do you recommend the other first?<p>Protection has to come first. Without protection from the things we do that hurt each other... things like dishonesty and infidelity, anger, demands, disrespect, etc. ...... will continue to drain the love bank. So what you have in effect, is a bucket with a hole in the bottom, that you are trying to fill without first repairing. <p>The really on-going one, he says he got rid of everything and doesn't have it. I have a tough time beleiving that he wrote to her for 6 months and can't remember her address but he says he always replied.<p>I'll bet you a hundred bucks he's lying. It's an addiction. And as you know, addicts will do anything to protect their source.<p>The Prostitues were "reused" also, I'd love to talk to them.<p>That just makes me queasy to think about.... reusing, not talking to. I guess it's a little close to home on a bad week!!!<p>Much of this was done on cell phones.<p>Then, they need new numbers too, and a way to be accountable for all calls, in and out. <p>As far as blocking the addresses, that's good too.<p>Oh yeah..... I've gone from being little miss naive to very suspicious and I AM good [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p> I suppose if he was dirty enough, he could just open a new one for them.<p>Something I've thought about frequently. There is no way to really monitor email accounts. Except perhaps with a keystroke program. But we all know that if we really want to cheat, we can. And not get caught...... for a while. But yes, it would be a deal breaker.

So, what about porn, cyber or print? How about gawking at young girls? Other things that are indicative of sexual addiction?<p>
Gone for the weekend, and Monday. Hoping to check in either later today, or tomorrow.<p>Hugs,<p>Cerri

Hi. <p>We talked for awhile last night ad he is fairly agreeable to whatever gives me confidence in his efforts.<p>He agreed to sending emails from both of us. As far as the sneaky little one he's been seeing for 6 months, he said that he knows the words in the name, it's the dashes or underscores he doesn't remember. He is going to write them down for me and I can try. I seized (with permission) his affair email account a couple of weeks ago. I will send from there and try to confirm an address. I have much to say to her. She knew he was married, chose to ignore it and she was the most significant of the E-chicks. He has already areed to no-contact and has not had contact for about 3 weeks. I still would like them sent. <p>They only have his one email account (the one that is now MY account), and I have passwords to all of his other accounts.<p>He is not thrilled, but willing to change his phone numbers.<p>For being such a creep for so long, he really is trying to cooperate and give me what I need so that we can try to heal some of this.<p>HE printed out the LBer questionaire and we are both working on those. He also got a counseling appt for us next week. They suggested that he deal with the marriage issues separate from the SA issues. I suppose that is fine as long as he does deal with them and as long as our counselor is aware of the specifics and it's damage to the marriage.<p>We didn't discuss him leaving his job. With the work he does, another job would most likely involve clearances, laptops and travel as well. He has consented to random laptop checks, non-use of the laptop for non-work issues, etc.
He does travel. Swears he's never done that out-of-town. Admits to emails, porn, topless bars, etc, but not action. Not sure how to deal with that. He's not typically gone alot. A day or two, here and there.

>addicts will do anything to protect their source.
I know. I have told him that I am the one that he should be protecting. If it's over, then there isn't use in protecting these women. I don't need to harass them, I only have something to say. Then I am done with them.<p>>The Prostitues ... I'd love to talk to them.
Obviously, that won't happen...as if I'd expect remorse from people who make a living ruining marriages. They need more than integrity lessons from me.<p>Porn? It's been a problem in the past and needs to be dealt with. He has told me that there were pics on the laptop but now they are gone. Cyber...the things he was subscribed to are under his affair account which I have. We been through the sex-show subscriptions before and will cover that in counseling. And monitoring. Young girls, he claims, are not an issue. We both have 12yo daughters. There was a 25yo bi-sexual girl who he was emailing, but nothing came from it. He was just fishing for whatever he could get. <p>Have a good weekend - hope it's for fun.<p>If you are open to it, I have a few things I would like to talk to you about non-publicly next week. If you are willing I'll send you an address. Most of our communication could be kept here where maybe it can help someone else. Just have a couple of questions that I bet you could answer.<p>Take care.<p>Hugs to you too.<p>SpyWife

darkmoon@1witch.com [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Sounds like the effort and the intent is real. The hard part will come when the craving starts calling his name. <p>Mmmmmm, I meant like college age girls, you know the same age as the ones in the clubs.<p>IMO, which is certainly very strongly prohibitive, all of that needs to end. One of the things that SAA talks about, or at least they did in the group where my H went, is the need to pull in the boundaries of what is ok behavior.<p>So, just as you or I can go to a bar and have a drink and it's ok, but an alcoholic cannot even enter the door (and in some cases needs to not drive in the neighborhhood) so it is with a sexual addict. Although I don't think it's ok, I will admit that some men can check out the Victoria's Secret catalogue, or go to strip club once a year and it's not a problem. But for an addict, those types of things will set off the obsessing and the craving, all over again.<p>In the Harley world, there should be no sexual activity that is not shared between husband and wife. That includes being sexually stimulated or aroused, even. I have always maintained that porn, strippers, and email relationships are infidelity. I guess I'm not in the Clinton crowd there am I!?!?<p>So every sexual experience should be within the context of the marital relationship, and only with H and W. But within those constraints, anything goes.<p>You can see where this is going to be a major attitude/behavioral adjustment. <p>I still think he will need to find a different job, maybe in another field. But, let's see what happens.<p>Some things to ask your counsellor.<p>1. What is his/her goal for your marriage.
The answer should be to save it.<p>2. Does he/she have a plan?
The answer should be yes.<p>3. What is that plan?
The answer should be to restore the feelings of love, by learning the habits that create those feelings, and eliminating the things that cause pain.<p>4. What is his/her track record of success? What percentage of marriages has he/she saved?
Should be better than 50%.<p>You can take the MB stuff in with you and ask that the counsellor work with you in this framework. Most will not. The goal of most counsellors is to help you decide whether or not you want to stay in the marriage. The goal is not restoring, but choosing. That's a dangerous place to start, and most only have about a 20 - 25% sucess rate of marriages saved.<p>Hope your weekend is good. The weather finally got warm and sunny here, just in time to work my a** off moving my mom [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri

Hey there,<p>Incredibly tough weekend. Just more little details that truths weren't told about. I don't think I told you that I had asked him to document EVERYTHING for me. Lets get it all out, so it can be dealt with. He did this, a week or so ago. Typed me four pages telling names, places, timeframes, acts, the works. Very difficult to deal with yet better to lay it all on the table. He assured me (I asked a few times) that everything was always with a condom. The six month Inet girl - he didn't sleep with her until after I found out about everything else and he felt like there was not hope for the marriage.<p>Well, Thurdsday, we had this big family dinner (nd he had sent me flowers). At his house which is just a depressing place to be. Anyway, this was a dinner that I had planned for our last night together in that house. Us and the four kids. It was planned weeks ago, but we had schdeduling problems (ex wife) so it didn't happen until now. We had everyone's favorite dinner items. It was very nice. We ate and the kids we playing and we were talking and the condom thing came up again. It turns out that he wasn't honest and he told me that he did not wear a condom. I was furious. He wrote this document, he answered my questions, why hide more. Say it so that we can be done with it. Before I left, he voluntarily gave me her phone number, last name, address, etc. Remember, the info that he couldn't remember the day before.<p>Ok. so now I have a number. And her full name. And a husband who is still tangled in his web of lies. Am I so stupid that I inadvertently trusted him after the "document"? Geez - after four pages you wouldn't think there would be much shock left. I'm so angry. And so revenge affair ready myself and so ready to give up.<p>So, on Friday I called her. We talked for an hour or so. Mostly she told me about all of the things that he told her about me. About what you'd expect. You can take things out of context and make anyone sound terrible. Her story mostly concurred with his.<p>Saturday, he was over and I noticed that he still isn't wearing his wedding ring, so I asked about it. Well, while he was at a hotel, in bed with her, he took it off and threw it across the room. Nice mental picture that one is. He never found it, says he really looked. He thinks that she kept it. I have sent her an email asking about it. <p>I finished the "Surviving an affair" book and have asked him to read it. He has started, but isn't making great progress. He thinks he knows it all, he's read it before, but he isn't practicing it. We completed the LB and the EN questionaires , we have read eachothers responses, but we haven't yet discussed them.<p>He's been busy fishing with his buddy and watching basketball with his buddy and I am certainly not his top priority. EN's not being met and I'm frustrated.<p>More later.<p>SpyWife (which seems like a really stupid name now)<p>God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.<p>Do all the answers lie in that prayer?<p>It seems they do.<p>Major tears.

Hi Cerri,<p>Thanks for the email address.<p>>Sounds like the effort and the intent is real. The hard part will come when the craving starts calling his name. <p>I think that the intent is real and the effort is sporadic. I know that when things aren't good, it will come back to him and that is what I need protection from. He doesn't appologize and I have a problem with that too. He only says that he knows he hurt me. But he didn't mean to. Ha.<p>>Mmmmmm, I meant like college age girls, you know the same age as the ones in the clubs.<p>Funny you say that. I'm sure he would if he had the chance. My youngest has Autism so I always have college girls in my home. A couple almost every day. He has told me that he has a problem with one because whenever she is there he just stares at her chest. She is very chesty. She has no use for him though. Unfortunately, she is one of my son's best therapists and is wonderful to me. I'm sure he hasn't been with any of them, and when they are there, they are working with my son. He doesn't have an opportunity to pursue them in our home.<p>>IMO, which is certainly very strongly prohibitive, all of that needs to end. One of the things that SAA talks about, or at least they did in the group where my H went, is the need to pull in the boundaries of what is ok behavior.<p>I agree. They aren't ok with me either. He knew that before and certainly hasn't admitted to topless bars, etc until all of the other stuff was dicovered. Get this - he says that it is just interesting to see the different laws between different states....like on his recent business trip, they had nude dancing girls, but they are back behind the bar, where the bottles are here. I'm unamused. Also, drinking had played a role in enabling his values to do the things he has, and I'm pushing him to give that up too. Before all of this stared, I had stopped drinking and smoking for 3.5 months. I was doing great. Lost it all when my world fell apart. I'm back on the no smokes, or drinks program, effective today. I have invited him to join me. Doubt that he will completely.<p> >In the Harley world, there should be no sexual activity that is not shared between husband and wife. <p>As it should be. <p>>I guess I'm not in the Clinton crowd there am I!?!?<p>When I talked to the girlfriend, she was iffy about what constitued sex. Please. I'm not of the Clinton mentality myself. H is though and we have argued extensively in the past about cyber sex being an affair or not. To me, it clearly is.<p>>I still think he will need to find a different job, maybe in another field. But, let's see what happens.<p>We talked about this some and he said that he could request no travel.. Says that there are some people in the company that have done that. I told him that I thought that would be good.<p>>You can take the MB stuff in with you and ask that the counsellor work with you in this framework. Most will not.<p>I thought that I would. Maybe we will need to shop around, or take on the expense of getting counselling from MB.<p>Don't know where you are, but it's already 110 here, so I know what you mean about the heat. Is her move done or are you still helpng? My parents are moving in a couple of weeks also.<p>Hey another question....One of the MB theories that I have a hard time with is the time commitment. 15 hours plus is not very doable. Kid free. I have four, and the special needs requirement. Ten hours would be hard, but I do recognize the value of it. With six kids, do you make that time and how do you work it out? How young is your oldest?<p>Thanks<p>SpyWife

Hey!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'm back.
Spent the early part of the day getting caught uop with the reading on Persistent's thread.<p>Lesseeee, a couple of notes, if you don't like your screen name, you can change it. You cannot change the name you use when you login, but the part that is viewable to others you can. It's in the profile part. <p>Goddesss, but your h sounds like mine. Likes to see the difference in laws in different states?? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] Puh-leeze! <p>Yes, I tried the document thing too. Yours did a much better job than mine. He left all kinds of things, like email affairs, and prostitutes! I had to dig and dig and dig. I got to be pretty good at finding ways to find things.<p>Remind me and I'll tell you when I have more time about how I busted him trying to meet someone long after d-day and all his promises of being faithful.<p>Yes, I know that 15 hours seems next to impossible. The thing is, you have to decide what is the most important part of your life. With a special needs child, it makes things tougher. But if you have assistance already, isn't there a way to use some of that time as your time together? Granted, there are other activites that may need to be eliminated. <p>As Dr. Harley says, if you schedule your 15 hours together and you don't have time left over for family and friends, then you are too busy. But at least you're not neglecting the realtionship which should be first in your life. <p>My oldest at home is my son who is 17. I have 6 that are mine, my daughter turns 21 in a week or so, the boys are 19, 17, 11, 9, and 7. H's d is going on 15 and she lives with her mom. <p>The summer is looking like it's ging to be overwhelmingly crazy. Kids in summer school, College for kids, camp.....<p>We are in western WI. My mom is in Dubuque, IA. We had one maybe two days of nice weather and we're back to rainy and cold [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I got your email, and I apologize, I have been swamped. Hopefully tomorrow I can start to catch up a little.<p>About MB counselling. I've not had good luck with Jenn or Steve. Some have. Others, I question the outcome pertaining to the marriage, although they have done a good job of changing their own habits. Have you thought about calling the radio show? It's at 1 pm CDT on Mondays and Thursdays. Like I said, you can listen to it via the web, instructions and lind are on this site. Click on radio show. I think you would get the best advice by talking to Dr. Harley himself.<p>Ok, gotta get going. If I forgot anything, just ask again. I'm a little frazzled today [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri