Hey both of you....<p>OK...Co-dependence<p>This is what I have learned. <p>Dr. Harley makes a good point. That is healthy co-dependence, and just basic being a well-rounded, caring human being. Later in his article, he applies those same questions to an addict and his responses change drasticly.<p>That is un-healthy co-dependence and I have some of that. People who fix other people at their own expense. Thats what I do. I do it with my husband, I did it with my ex-husband, I do it somewhat with my kids which is different but I need to watch as they get older.<p>My H needs to fix his broken stuff. I did get him materials to get started and tried and tried to make him see it my way. I'm done with that. I'm glad I gave him resources and I don't think that was unhealthy codependence. My frantic pushing him to get it done is unhealthy codependence. I cried, I moped, I raged, I nagged, I got drunk, I started smoking again. Unhealthy codependence. I am allowed to be hurt (thats the healthy-co), but I can honestly tell you I was becomming a f*cked up psycho and that was the unhealthy-co part. <p>Now that I have accepted, I can fix my own broken stuff and get back to who I was. I am putting my energy into being the well-adjusted person that I used to be and get rid of the controlling behaviors and when I have done that, then there is fertile ground on which to rebuild the relationship if he has done the same for himself.<p>I still will care for people, I will still do things for people, but I'm not going to sell my self short again.<p>To me that is healthy codependence.<p>One more thing...you know my little guy has Autism. There are times in his behavioral program that we do hand-over-hand to make him learn something. That is if we are writing cursive and he refuses, we put the pen in his hand and hold his hand in ours and physically make him do it. For him, that is what he needs. Doing the equivalent to that to my husband (which is what I was trying to do) will never work. It's unhealthy codependence. <p>The thought that MY way is right and you WILL change is unhealthy-co and I was doing that. What I now believe is this.... Genuine fidelity is what I require in a husband and you can work toward becomming that, or I cannot have you as my husband. See the difference.<p>Damn, I've come far.<p>The floor is yours Ms. Cerri....<p>The new and improved Spy-wife

I thought about installing wireless spy cams in my house towards the end, but it felt too irrational, too paranoid, and too untrusting where she had given me her word... and so had he. <p>Maybe if I had, I would be calling myself SpyLyxa.

Howdy!!<p>Spywife, Yes, yes, and yes!<p>That is if we are writing cursive and he refuses, we put the pen in his hand and hold his hand in ours and physically make him do it. For him, that is what he needs. Doing the equivalent to that to my husband (which is what I was trying to do) will never work. It's unhealthy codependence. <p>Or in MB terminology, disrespectful. You are soooo right on. He can address what needs to be addressed and meet your very healthy expectations, or he can lose you.<p>One of the big differences withm the Harley philosophy is the invention ov Plan B. It gives you, the BS a chance to get away from the pain and still insist that you want the M to work.<p>And a hopeful by-product is that he will recognize how it is in his best interests to have you as his wife, and do what needs to be done.<p>You're good girlfriend. Go to the head of the class. Heck, you can even teach it this week [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hugs,<p>C

Thank you. I had a good evening with H. We talked about alot of things and it didn't get ugly. We have the MC meeting today. Ugh. Still don't like her. H thinks that I should tell her all of the reasons I don't like her, including that she doesn't dress appropriately to be dealing with an SA. He said "you wear dresses like that". Hmm....I'm not a family counselor either.<p>ALright, so I won't be back until Monday. You girls have a good weekend and I'll chat with you then.<p>Thanks for being here....
Spy Wife

Hiya,

My icon is blue because I am a little blue, but let me thank you both for your feedback and advice.

Let me start by answering the Dr. Harley definition to addiction:

“Not all affairs are addictions, of course, just like not all people who get drunk every weekend are alcoholics. I have treated many alcoholics who simply made a decision in my office to stop drinking. Even though they were suffering the physical effects of years of drunkenness, from that day forward they never had another drink. I don’t consider these people to be addicts. From my perspective their drinking was always something they could have stopped any time they wanted because they were never addicted. The proof was in the fact that they actually stopped cold turkey and suffered no withdrawal symptoms. Another proof was that they were able to avoid alcohol for the rest of their lives”.

"Many affairs are one-night-stands, where a spouse has sex only once with someone who happens to be available. Even when it is repeated, a relationship of sexual convenience without the feeling of love is relatively easy to stop when it is exposed. That’s because a relationship without love is not an addiction, although it is still devastating to the other spouse when it is discovered”.

This is out of “What to Do with an Unfaithful Husband Letter#1”.

Having quoted these paragraphs, I am very sad to say that he had a small episode. He didn’t act out, but he had a sensation flashback of his “problem”.

Basically, we went out for drink with his work-mates. Everything was fine with one exception when I got angry with him for not showing some responsibility by not holding back more on the drinking to pace himself to drive. Either he thought most would not go leave for some time or hoped that I would drive. He had a good time, and even though he wanted a big night out he didn’t mind going home early both because I didn’t just sit out and not talk to anyone.
However, when we got home he acted quite drunk, and wanted sex. I said let’s not do that anymore (abstain). He wasn’t happy and came back with a very hurtful comment (which he doesn’t remember saying at all now), “I won’t have sex with you, I’ll just have sex with other people”, then fell aspeep.
I cried and swore back at him. He must have been tired because he really to manage to sleep, so I huffed and I puffed. He got up all grumpy, we fought for a few seconds and he proceeded to call for food to be delivered (?).
After he ate we made up in a bad way and we ended up doing it anyway.

Well, the next night he tells me what he experienced. He said for the first time since he confessed he sensed the crazy demon. He said when he was drunk his thoughts started to wonder to sexual body parts that were not mine, but he stopped it before it got out of control like he used to allow it to.

This distresses me greatly, I was holding onto his words. He said he doesn’t want to hurt me ever again and doesn’t believe he would do it, but he too is scared that this thing has loomed it ugly head back. Though, he says in a way he is glad because it seemed to him that things were not “truthful” (my word to sum up the talk) as it was so “easy” (my words).
We had an honest talk in which there was a couple of instances when he got frustrated with my comments which were made in fear of this monster “disease”.
I AM TERRIFIED!!!!!!!
He wants to find his own counsellor to deal with this (he didn’t like the guy we were seeing wither because he felt he was a bit partial towards me), willing to find a close friend to confess this to, and have me to complete the “triangle” around him for this.
This is good, but until I see it, I won’t hold my breath.

Re: Co-dept article, I read it and do agree with it whole-heartedly. It is hard to tell what is unhealthy. For example, having to wait till he is calm to bring up really touchy things (love units?) or the idea of abstinence or cutting back?

What is IMO sex addiction? (I’m not thinking today as I am swamped with work for being out of the office for 2 days).

As for accepting him as who/what he is, I mean that I am having a hard time with such a flawed human being. I realise no one is perfect, but my pride tells me I don’t have to have “scum” like this in my life. Sorry, a little angry outburst for being lied to for so long.

I recall SpyWife; you saying that in one way in would be easier if our partners had meaningful affairs.
I agree with this, though I believe that pain would be greater, because at least then I could understand how it got to the physical part. The image of them acting out something that I hold sacred is torturous.
Also, if he wasn’t so certain about how much he loved me, and wants to succeed or try, it would be easier to just drop him. He’s just NOT tenacious with his efforts to finding information, learning more about others people in similar situations, and spending most of our spare time on this. It makes me angry because he wants to have normalcy.

Well, I need to sign off. I’ve so much to say, but much of it is still very foggy.

Cheers, and have a good 4th of July.

Hi guys,

dont have much to say, things feel better in my life since I have let go of his part of it. He still has good intentions but not alot of action going on in his recovery.

Have another MC appointment today. The one last week was fairly productive.

I'll be gone until Monday. Have a nice holiday.

Cerri, where did you go? Maybe you are spending your time with that all-week festival?

Be safe.
Spy Wife

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SpyWife2002:
<strong>Hi guys,

dont have much to say, things feel better in my life since I have let go of his part of it. He still has good intentions but not alot of action going on in his recovery.

Have another MC appointment today. The one last week was fairly productive.

I'll be gone until Monday. Have a nice holiday.

Cerri, where did you go? Maybe you are spending your time with that all-week festival?

Be safe.
Spy Wife</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hubby is home this week and kids are gone. So we are doing some work on the house, which requires many trips to the lumber yard <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have some good stuff from this week's show regarding good intentions and saving marriages. But right now I have to work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Eli, I have a site for you, too about living together before marriage.

Sorry in such a rush..... busy busy busy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But hey!! I've been jail free now for 2 years LOL LOL LOL

Have a good fourth... yes we will be partying in Hudson tonight.

C

Hey!!
Where'd you guys go?
Spywife, everything ok?

C

Geez, it's been 8 days gals.

I've been here and there reading other people's post because I'm lost again.
Also, been reading heaps and had a few bouts of mini breakdowns, self-inflicted (perhaps, or feeling his lack of effort, though he is constantly saying I love you, and how lucky he feels that I'm stil with him). For some reason all this is not enough.
I need one of those intensive weekend courses where you let it all out. I want what some of the WS's have been able to do for their BS, that is, tell them everything, every detail, and take them to every place. Basically, live it again with the WS so they can rebuild the past, and not feel like a part of their life was just gone.

Don't know if that makes any sense at all. It's as if I want pain in order to be able to move past it.
I hate the words, "You now know everything" (Yeh, everything that he thinks is new/different or the worse), "There's nothing else", or "We've been through that already".
Until I get the full picture and every last detail from start to finish, I'll always feel like it's all in pieces. Pieces that he feels I can handle, incompleted pieces.

He has volunteered information, but these are the major things like the first time, or the first one that he knew. But, these were few.
Arhhhh, I'm rambling again.

It frustrates me becuase I've been elaborating on the vague information that I have and I've been imagining the many missing bits in between. Especially the incident with that b*tch.
It could be that he now has stopped trying to take ALL the blame.
He sees how she acted cunningly. There's definited jigsaw pieces (some he had and others I had) that we've been able to put together that the other didn't know which shows her true colors.
We've both been denying that it was possible for a person to deliberately seek out someone they knew to be involved with someone else, because we both feel we can inflict pain on ourselves, but not someone else.
Are there such people who have complete disregard for other people, or the chaos if they just took what they wanted?

Reading Dave Carder's book "Out of the Shadows", there's some clues that his core beliefs may have been distorted in his childhood, but it's hard to say that he is a S-Addict. I guess only time can tell if his self-control is real or not (key to being an addict is uncontrollabe compulsion etc, also refer to Dr. Harley's definition).

Anyway, I've been putting more effort into learning than he has (another frustration) and 1 hr a week on this is not enough for me. Though, there are some very good reasons for it. If I push him too much more he could lose his job, the one thing that he defines himself by. Then again, I am the type of person who'll give my last ounce of strength to this as I can't bear the pain, and really do not want to drag it out. If he really is a "bad person", not the one I fell in love with, then I don't want to be here.
Sorry, this sounds so harsh, but if he is truly not the one I fell in love with, then I was never in love with him. And, we all know how important it is to be in love.

Oops, didn't get to answering your question Cerri.
I had read the living together article, though it makes sense, I'm sorry to say that I see it as a theory.
It's strange for me. Due to my up-bringing the theory should suit me, but I tend to try to think for myself, and I've always controlled my living arrangements, meaning we have not shared the same room. Not sure if that makes a difference as I assert to hold some chips in my hand.
Hope I'm not deluding myself, but I am happy with it.

Strange, every now and then I see that there may be a lesson to learn from this experience. Before, I just refused to believe that one could learn anything from something so painful, so cruel, so unjust.

PS: Tell me again how do you believe what they say, and how do you stop having violent thoughts about the OP?

PPS: I've read some stories how the OP pursued the WS. I believe this is the case here. The OP unleashed when the situation was most precarious between myself and WS, when the opportunity opened up, when WS was most vunerable, when WS was drowning himself with alcohol to numb his feelings of dispair and self-hatred.

Mercy, I can't stand feeling like I have two people inside of me. One trying to be understanding & forgiving and the other wanting to be really hard & punishing.
Did you go through this?

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: eli ]</small>

Hi Cerri and Eli,

Sorry I've been gone for so long. I've been spending time with the COSA stuff which has been very helpful to me, and I have been working on me.

The marriage is comming along very well at all. MC again today. I am dreading it. I am ending the MC. When we go, it puts H into a depression where he goes into his silent depression and shuts me out. It has always been a problem and the MC always brings it out in him. Seems to me that rather than hashing through everything wrong, that anybody ever did, it would be better to lay down new ground rules and start fresh. To H that includes "forgetting" about the affairs and prostitutes and all and moving home.

Nothing has been done about the SA stuff. He claims nobody ever calls him back, yet when I call the numbers, I can always reach people. I have talked to these men quite a bit about how it works and one has talked to me quite a bit about him needing to do it for himself (which I already know, but he preaches anyway).

Where I am at is that this MC is worthless. H needs to address the SA or forget it. That is what I am telling them all today. It has been (almost) four very difficult months and it is moving backwards instead of forwards.

Over the weekend, it was more of the silent crap which has been going on for three weeks. He comes over for meals, sex and sleep. He is constantly out fishing or playing with his new $700. bow and arrows, or poker or naps. I am his last priority and I am done with it. I need to be swept off my feet or left alone. This weekend was my son's 9th birthday party, which H came to. He stayed for a half hour and went to play with his bow. Then he came back and took a nap. This was a pool party at my parent's house. Then he said he was going to leave and I told him that I didn't have room for all these kids (my 3, plus his D, plus a child to sleep over) and gifts and so he stayed but just sat there unsocially. When we got home he told me he was going to play poker. When he came back I told him to leave. I'm not going to come after everything else. When he is ready to work on the relationship, I am here - until then, be gone.

I'm still glad I moved. There is no walking on eggshells all of the time and the never-ending silent treatment, and the moods.

I don't think the prognosis is good.

And how are the two of you today?

Thanks,
Spy Wife

Eli,

I just re-read your post and I have to agree that knowing all of the facts is too important. I asked mine to document it for me. He wrote me four pages listing each person, how he met them, what they did, etc. There were a few minor holes in it, but it gave me what I needed to accept it. It told me about ones I didn't know about also. It was very painful, but very necessary.

I'm not sure that most men would do that. I am glad that mine did. I still think he's an [censored] for all that he has done, but I try to credit him with some honesty.

Like yours, mine wants it to go away without doing the work. Just say "it will never happen again" and that to be enough. It isn't enough. I got that promise when I knew about him doing this with his ex. Without a plan in place I would bet my bottom dollar that it will happen again, to me or to his next wife. I'm not planning to go through it again.

Stick to your guns. You are younger than me, you are less attached (marriage, kids), don't give yourself away if he won't give you what you need. There are many fish in the sea.

I know what you mean about not feeling love. My love bank is WAY overdrawn. It is eating at my hope.

Believe in you.

Spy Wife.

Cerri,

Another thing, since you have experience with the Harley approach to counseling...must all of the the "three years ago you did this and I'm still mad about it" sh*t be worked through or when there are just buckets of that stuff do you set it all aside and say, from now forward, these are our boundaries and how we will handle situations like that int he future? We could spend years working through all the stuff that anyone ever did (this gets into kids too).

I'm not exactly sure when enough is enough.

He refuses to work on communication until sex is all he wants it to be and we combine finances (pretty much under his control) which is a joke at this point and having separate households. I tell him that communication is the foundation and it all grows for there. We can't work through a money issue if we can't communicate. Am I right? How do you work though anything without positive conversation? He says no conversation till te issues are worked through. It's a stalemate and the MC just says that we are both controlling people. What to do?

At my wits end.

Spy Wife.

I'm not so blue anymore as you can see.
Things are getting a little better.
We had a couple of incidences that made him realise what it may be like for me.
At a party about 5 of us were mucking around, but nothing really happened. A friend whom I think likes me paid extra attention to me.
I know not to ever let myself be alone with someone of the opposite sex.
but, S/O said he felt really hurt, and I said "well, that's doesn't even come close to what I feel, but at least you now know 1/1000-th of what I feel".
Since then, I've felt safer to express my hurt/pain, and he has simply comforted me.

SW, you are right. There are plenty of fish in the sea.
My problem is as Cerri said, I'm a romantic. But, that's not all bad for that's makes me ME.
He loves my purity, and essence/soul.
He said it wasn't me, it was him. He was spiralling downward because he did not love himself enough to do what was good for him. He felt guilty, but he got to a point where he hated himself more and more.
He could not see how anyone could forgive anyone who'd done what he had, and he could see a way to undo his mistakes. But, he couldn't give me up, "wanted his cake and be able to eat it too".

Furthermore, without reading Patrick Carnes' book, he told me a lot of things that were highlighted in it(re: childhood, parents, significant adults, friends, experiences, etc).
Though, he seems to be able to control himself quite well. He said he won't lie and say that he is at the point where he doesn't notice a good-looking female, but he wants to get to a point where he will simply see them as another human being.

I don't know as I still have not forgiven him as yet, nor do I have faith in him. It will take time, or so everyone keeps saying...

SW, have you read the book by P. Carnes?
One of his most important point is that with counselling, one must seek to address all the issues, not just the marriage for example, but also the addiction(s), simultaneously.

<small>[ July 24, 2002, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: eli ]</small>

Spywife!!!
Hi good to hear from you.
I'm behind.... everywhere it seems, but I'll check in later.

C

Hi again,

Well the counseling appointment yesterday was probably as bad as I had dreaded. I didn't want to be there. When we began with this counselor she made us both promise that if we decided to stop comming there, we had to come back one last time to talk about why. Yesterday was my one last time.

I think she is a worthless counselor, although I didn't share that part with her. What I did share is that H and I had agreed three months ago, that he would pursue SA and private counseling and we would go to couples counseling. Not SA related, just a MC. I kept my part of the deal and he hasn't followed up the SA stuff at all. He always says that nobody calls him back.

I had gotten him the meeting lists, etc but nothing ever came from it. Monday, I did some research and got some phone numbers and of the three men who post their numbers to call for SA help, all three answered thier phones. I had no difficulty in reaching someone.

So my statement was that when he is actively in recovery, I will then continue couple counseling. She had me clarify what my sexual boundaries are and I said that I need for him to recognize that all men are NOT doing this. I will insist on no prostitutes, no internet girls, no topless bars, no affairs, no porn, no j-off in the garage every morning with his magazines, no sexual activity of any type outside of the marriage. H said he could not agree to that long term. He would agree for six months. I told him forever or be free.

To borrow from the Al-anon people, I am doing the "Let Go and Let God".

So that is where it is at. When we left, he did ask me for the phone numbers and I gave them to him. Maybe I'll never hear from him again, maybe I'll get served with divorce paperwork, or maybe he will go to a meeting and find that he belongs there.

He's a good guy. I'll miss him, although I won't miss his dark side. I am very afraid that we are finished, although I do feel peace in having done what I needed to do.

She said that we are obviously at a point where he won't do what I want until I do what he wants and visa-versa. He then told her that I have done much but he has not. I thank that he recognises the work that I have done for me and for us.

What ever will be will be.

Eli, I did get a couple of Patrick Carnes books, but by the time I started reading them I was at the point where I needed something more for me. I very much identified with "Living with your Husbands Secret Wars" and I have a couple other "wife-side-of-things" books but I have taken a break from it to finish Codependednt No More. When I looked through them, the Carnes books didn't look as readable as some of the others I have read. Also, it appeared to me that many of his cases were so extreme that people that are somewhat in the middle cannot see themselves there. H took them and I know he read part of one of them.

I'm glad that things are "up" for you right now Eli, please look out for yourself and don't settle for someone less than you deserve.

Spy Wife

Have the two of you abandoned me?

Oh Spy and Cerri: I nearly cried when I read your posts. I am sorry to say that I completely understand. I found out (the first wave) the week of September 11th. Everyone thought I was reacting to the event (which, of course I was) but I found myself wishing I had been in the building! As you have said, the info trickled out... still is. On-line crap, strip clubs, massage parlors and prostitutes. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is one STD thing you need to specifically check for. If you come up positive for HPV (which most sexually women do) ask for a DNA test to determine if it is a high-risk strain (very few of the thousands are.) Those strains cause cervical cancer. The men will test negative and have no symptoms. Their wives can die. I know. It was my husband's little gift to me via his prostitute pals. I am dying here. Each time I think I can forgive him and move forward I am hit between the eyes with the question: Why would I WANT to? (cuz my kids love him is the answer). I will read more of your posts, and hopefully we can help eachother. I know all the book titles, all the 12-step crap, and everything else the desperate-to-make-some-sense-of-it-wife explores. God bless you both.

a clarification: I just re-read my post. The "I am dying here" line was just in general- torn apart, hurting, confused. It's proximity to the cancer thing made it sound medical. It is not that-yet. Though I am being tested every three months- and will have to for 5 YEARS!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SpyWife2002:
<strong>Have the two of you abandoned me?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh Spywife..... what I bad friend I've been. It's been overwhelming here and elsewhere. What is this.... the month all my friends leave their spouses <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ???

Hi readytogiveup.

How about you guys read the Plan B stuff, articles and q/a columns and then let's talk??

Hey, tell me more about that STD, do you mean that you have to specifically ask to be checked for it, or for the nasty strain??

Spywife, I'm yours tomorrow morning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> sorry, sorry, sorry.......

Cerri

Cerri -

You are not a bad friend. Maybe you just have a life. To kind of keep you in my life, I read the Persistent stuff. The G/T thing is interesting and have tried to look at it in my own life. Ther persistent thing confuses me though, have a question about it for another time.

I checked out your web site - very nice and your pictures are great. Are you having success with it?

ReadyToGiveUp - welcome. I'm sorry that your life is eaten up with the SA stuff too. It's very sad. If you aren't finding what you need here, I have been participating in a COSA group (email) for a month or so, and it has been HUGELY helpful to me. It is all SA spouses, and there is much, much there to identify with. Let me know if you are interested.

Since giving my H the get-busy or get-lost ultimatum, he did go to A meeting. Just one, but it's a start. He says that they are all loosers. He certainly isn't agressive about doing much with it. I don't push anymore - it's his to deal with. He harbors alot of resentment that I am all unpacked, settled and signing up for school and hiring new therapists (for my son) on my side of town. I'm not necessarily moving on (as he thinks), but doing things that must be done. It was four months yesterday (since d-day), how long am I just supposed to sit and cry?

Look forward to chatting with you tomorrow. Hope you don't give me some big awful, three day homework assignment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Spy Wife