Thanks Spy. I am interested in the online thing. My H's SA therapist tried to get me in a group, but I just could not do it. Too shy. Too humiliated. Too skeptical. Too sad. On-line might be just the ticket. Thanks

ReadyToGiveUp

Send a blank email to this address and they will send you a message about how to join. Hope to see you there. It and Cerri have been lifelines to me during this time.

coanon-subscribe@sarr.org

Best Wishes,
Spy Wife

thank you very much., I am badly in need of a lifeline right now.

Spywife...

A life????? Surely you jest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So what's your P question? You can see that they keep me pretty busy over there! And also, that you would be more than welcome to join in any time.

My business is still at the accruing expenses stage <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But my intuitive feeling is that it all is happening at exactly the pace it is meant to. It feels really good and really right, so me getting up tight and trying to rush something would be counter-productive.

My greatest fear is that by this time next year, I'll be too swamped to ever leave my office. Which is very nice, but one does need to shop on occassion! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm usually at my desk by 6:30. Tomorrow I have the bank doing a site visit to confirn that I really am a business before they grant merchant status for accepting credit cards. That's at 9 am, the rest of the day has nothing on it til hubby gets home.

See ya then.

C

Oh Cerri,

Another thing - about the plan B....I have sort of considered this to be a plan B. It doesn't exactly meet requirements, as he is supposedly not doing his "stuff", but not doing the work to fix it either. I don't know if I mentioned that in the last MC session, when I said that I wouln't come back until he was active in recovery and what that meant for me, he said that he can't assure me that this won't happen again.

Also, in plan B, there is not supposed to be commincation and there has been little. I do want to be here for him to discuss what he is doing and whatnot without being his doormat everytime he needs his SF fix.

So I don't think it is a good by-the-book plan B, but has defined boundaries and laid out what needs to be happening for me to be willing to go back to counseling. It wasn't an ultimatum per se, but self protective boundaries. Thoughts on that? Taker, taker, taker (see I'm at least noticing where I do that).

Also, if/when counseling does resume, I really don't want to go back to this lady. As you know I never liked her. How does one go about finding a MC that supports the Harley principals, or someone like you (locally) and that insurance would cover because H is a tightwad unless it is for one of his toys.

Thanks,
Spy Wife

Morning!!!

Yesterday was my one last time.

Good for you! If you read enough around the boards I think you'll find the experiences with traditional MC's is pretty universal..... worthless or worse.

I had no difficulty in reaching someone.

Of course not. It was a convenient excuse. Remember that all addicts will go to extreme lengths to protect their source, even when they intellectually want to be healthy, the illness is frighteningly deceptive.

So my statement was that when he is actively in recovery, I will then continue couple counseling.

Very good.

She had me clarify what my sexual boundaries are and I said that I need for him to recognize that all men are NOT doing this. I will insist on no prostitutes, no internet girls, no topless bars, no affairs, no porn, no j-off in the garage every morning with his magazines, no sexual activity of any type outside of the marriage.

That is very acceptable and you should settle for nothing less. The thing that all sex addicts in recovery will come to acknowledge is that they need to monitor their fantasies as well. Just like one cookie can set off a whole string of sugar binging for me, their fantasies are where the obsession starts.

And, they need to recognize that this is a coping mechanism. H got really bad when things in his life were feeling out of control, or when he was stressed. He also did those things when he was angry with his current spouse. How's that for a particularly damaging Angry Outburst <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ???

H said he could not agree to that long term. He would agree for six months. I told him forever or be free.

I think you are absolutely right in expecting that, AND for him it will need to be one day at a time. It's a difficult paradox.

So that is where it is at. When we left, he did ask me for the phone numbers and I gave them to him. Maybe I'll never hear from him again, maybe I'll get served with divorce paperwork, or maybe he will go to a meeting and find that he belongs there.

I really would like to see you do a formal Plan B. A letter that says:

1. I love you.
2. I married you for life.
3. I want to stay married to you.
4. These things that you are doing are too painful for me to endure.
5. Until you are willing to meet these _______ conditions I cannot see or speak to you.

It sends the message that you love HIM, but that you will not tolerate the things he is doing to you. And that you hold your marriage and the vows you took as sacred.

The more I do with this stuff and the more people I talk with, the more I am convinced of the sheer brilliance of the Plan B strategy. It is a stop gap measure designed to salvage marriages that are in enough distress to require separation, but leaves the door open for healing.

The thing is, and this is so hard to convince spouses, is that the time to do Plan B is when you still have some feelings of love for your spouse. If you keep hanging on, waiting for the change, until you can't stand the other guy, then when you walk away you'll no longer have the motivation to stick it out through a Plan B scenario.

I should have done it. Long ago. Then, when/if hubby was ready to put some effort into recovery, I would still have had those feelings of love. It's difficult to care or even be willing to take the chance at recovery when you are deep into withdrawal.

He then told her that I have done much but he has not. I thank that he recognises the work that I have done for me and for us.

I'm encouraged at that level of honesty.

When I looked through them, the Carnes books didn't look as readable as some of the others I have read.

They are pretty dry, but there's some good stuff. I think he was the ground breaker for recognizing this addiction, so it tends to be clinical.

I spent 2 days earlier this month at the Smart Marriages conference in DC. I took the Harley workshop which is the first of three parts for certification. I didn't hear much that was new, but it was an excellent refresher. The best part was to be involved in the q/a sessions.

Did you read my story at P's thread about the old guy and the prostitute that we saw in DC?

C

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Another thing - about the plan B....I have sort of considered this to be a plan B. It doesn't exactly meet requirements, as he is supposedly not doing his "stuff", but not doing the work to fix it either.

Plan B should be in effect until a good recovery plan is in place and being worked. Ending the affair or the unacceptable activity is not enough.

Also, in plan B, there is not supposed to be commincation and there has been little. I do want to be here for him to discuss what he is doing and whatnot without being his doormat everytime he needs his SF fix.

Part of the idea in Plan B is that you meet NONE of his needs. By being there to talk this over with him, you are meeting a need of some sort. It keeps him less motivatred to do what needs to be done. Also leaves you exceptionally vulnerable to hurt.

Taker, taker, taker (see I'm at least noticing where I do that).

A very good example of how your Taker is watching out for you. And that is the way it should be. Your Giver is more likely to get you into trouble right now.

Also, if/when counseling does resume, I really don't want to go back to this lady

Ewwww no. Why would you be willing to go to someone whose appearance makes you uncomfortable and whom you thought was worthless? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

How does one go about finding a MC that supports the Harley principals, or someone like you (locally) and that insurance would cover because H is a tightwad unless it is for one of his toys

There are very few who will work with you using Harley stuff. And you are right that insurance will not cover coaching. I have some thoughts on that which I would email to you, but don't want to post publically.

You don't need someone like me locally. most coaching is done by phone and email. Very effectively, too.

C

Hey!!
C'mon now ..... what's your Persistant question????

C

Hey Girlfriend,

When you say you will write, you write!!

Ok, the Persistent question....I jumped into reading this a couple of weeks ago and I came in right where you were at - My questions would probably be answered if I made time to read the other 160 pages or so, however my boss likes me best when I get some work done so I try not to spend too much time here. It seems like the thread is pretty much you doing therarpy for HT. Since many of us have similar marriage issues, there are things there that I can relate to and you give great advice so I'm kind of hooked now. The question is about AlwaysAndForever....is this another person with their own "stuff" or is this a person who knows HT's wife and kind of reports what she is up to? Persistent is a different relationship - right? I know that my questions are just nosey but it would help me to follow along.

Now back to our own business.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That is very acceptable and you should settle for nothing less. The thing that all sex addicts in recovery will come to acknowledge is that they need to monitor their fantasies as well.

About sexual boundaries...where to you stand on the mastrubation issue? I think that I really don't care if he does it occasionally, but the compulsive, several times a day is over-the-top. SA says that there should be none of it. I'm not sure how to define my bounday on that. Advice?

And, they need to recognize that this is a coping mechanism. H got really bad when things in his life were feeling out of control, or when he was stressed. He also did those things when he was angry with his current spouse. How's that for a particularly damaging Angry Outburst ???

Mine has the same reasons - hadn't thought of it as an AO, but I suppose it is.

I really would like to see you do a formal Plan B. A letter that says:

I think that this is good, but I'm not sure I can do that. I don't think that he is committed enough and I think that would just be the end. I'm not sure that I am ready to accept that - I still care. I know that you say plan B needs to take place when there is still care, but it will send Mr. Controlling out of control.

It is like when I first found out, and my initial reaction was divorce. That was just peachy with him, he dove even deeper into his stuff and internet ads. I think if I were to plan B him, that is what he would do now. Maybe it is a necessary step to have him want to be committed to the marriage. I'm very unpeaceful with this.

but leaves the door open for healing

How do you think that it leaves the door open for healing, because there is no friendship, communication, etc. It's kind of the ultimate ultimatum. You say meeting no needs...does this mean that I will have to mow my own grass? Maybe you can do it for me, you may wear your shirt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I should have done it. Long ago. Then, when/if hubby was ready to put some effort into recovery, I would still have had those feelings of love. It's difficult to care or even be willing to take the chance at recovery when you are deep into withdrawal.

Are you talking about current hubby? You are in love with him now, are you not? Did you hit relationship-bottom?

I took the Harley workshop which is the first of three parts for certification.

So how long doea it take? When will you be finished?

Did you read my story at P's thread about the old guy and the prostitute that we saw in DC?

I don't think so, unless it was the lady at the bar that never shut up, but I don't recall you saying that she was a prostitute.

A very good example of how your Taker is watching out for you. And that is the way it should be. Your Giver is more likely to get you into trouble right now.

I'm encouraged that you see this a good thing. I often feel self-ceneted and demanding for the things that I am requiring.

Ewwww no. Why would you be willing to go to someone whose appearance makes you uncomfortable and whom you thought was worthless?

He kind of likes her - go figure. I feel like I need to be open to giving somewhere instead of appearing to have that my-way-or-the-highway approach about everything.

There are very few who will work with you using Harley stuff. And you are right that insurance will not cover coaching. I have some thoughts on that which I would email to you, but don't want to post publically.

Please send to rain_mom@hotmail.com. I'm not using the spy-yahoo email account.

You don't need someone like me locally. most coaching is done by phone and email. Very effectively, too.

It seems awkward to not do it face-to-face....would work much nicer in my schedule though...

Please let my know what you think about drudging up all the old stuff that anybody ever did wrong vs starting fresh and defining a new way to live together.

Thanks, I missed you. You meet more of my needs that my husband!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Spy_wife

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

When you say you will write, you write!!

Could you guess that Conversation in #1 need for me?? LOL

Ok, the Persistent question....

Ok, P's wife had an A with a family friend they met sailing. It lasted 2.5 years. D0day was my b-day last yearm 12-3. He had been counselling with Jenn (Harley) Chalmers for 10? 16? months before that. Doing a superb Plan A. She said she just didn't love him any more. Jenn should have recognized the signs of an affair waaaay sooner than she did.
Now they are not really in recovery, he is still meeting her needs as much as she will let him, but she doesn't "feel" like meeting his, so she doesn't. They are stuck, at least for now.
Recently, OM was back in the picture when they sent him an email asking him to not sail in some races they hoped to attend. He refused, and also told them that he and wife were now separated. The A ended when he would not leave wife to marry P's wife because he didn't want to give up any time with his kids.
This has set P's wife back a little into w/d, but I think her comittment is to staying in the M, if for no other reason than their wonderful child.

HoFS, who is gone this week, is also the BS. His wife has had multiple affairs with immigrants that she works with in a mentoring position. They counselled with Steve, but since there was not a frim, recovery agreement in place after the first A, it's been a huge fiasco.
He filed for D in order to protect kids and finances from the things she was doing (some of questionable legality regarding immigrants, their status, and financial arrangements) The temp orders would have given him custody of the kids and the house so that he could move to Plan B. Unfortunately, when the legal system gets involved it's hell. They have some other temp orders in force while they see if reconciliation is possible. They are working with a mc who is not bad, but not good enough either.

HT's wife had an EA with some guy from the FBI. HT contends he has evidence that it was a PA too, but I don't know what that is. He has been verbally and emotionalluy abusive so she left. He had a heart attack a year or so ago, and then surgery, plus his dad died and his mom is quite ill. So, it's been very difficult the last couple of years. Unless he can get his behavior under control, she will leave for good, which is too bad, because he has a lot to offer. As you have read, we're working on not allowing the Giver to do things that enrage his Taker.

Marissa had an EA with a co-worker. She wants to repair her M, and to have those feelings for her H again, but he seems determined to sabotage her efforts. Very unmotivated. This one breaks my heart, here's a WS willing to put in the work to make up for what she did and he just can't get his act together. And she talks like it's her fault. It's not.

Alwaysandforever is a lurker turned sometime poster. I'm not sure what her story is, but her friend from HS is married to a guy who is abusive. Yells at her. So she has been confiding in a co worker who is meeting her needs. We all know where that will lead to. So, we've been trying to coach her on how to help her friend.

Runner1 is also lurker turned poster. She's burned out with a H who is never there for here. Needs to be honest about how she feels and if that doesn't work do a good Plan B, before she decided to jump ship.

BrokenHearted is new. Her h had an affair. Moved out. Affair is over and he thinks he wants to come back. She should insist on a hard and fast recovery agreement and until/unless he agrees stay with Plan B.

Who am I missing???? There are a few others that pop in every month or so, but I think I got the gist of the stories.

It's our own little soap <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It seems like the thread is pretty much you doing therarpy for HT. Since many of us have similar marriage issues, there are things there that I can relate to and you give great advice so I'm kind of hooked now.

It changes with the day and with who has issues. It's in the bylaws that you must sign up in advance for a bad day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Yeah, everyone who reads it says they get hooked. Not me..... I could leave anytime <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> LOL

I know that my questions are just nosey but it would help me to fllow along.

Hmmmmm..... no such thing as nosey on a public forum, is there??

About sexual boundaries...where to you stand on the mastrubation issue?

Not ok. Sex should be between the 2 partners, exclusively. What they DO together is entirely up to them. The thing is, especially for an addict, masturbation is back to all those fantasies that will set off the addictive behavior.

I think that this is good, but I'm not sure I can do that. I don't think that he is committed enough and I think that would just be the end.

But, if he's not comitted enough, then what's the incentive for you to keep him? You deserve a spouse who is there for you, committed.

I'm not sure that I am ready to accept that - I still care. I know that you say plan B needs to take place when there is still care, but it will send Mr. Controlling out of control.

Yes, I know. And that was why I didn't do it when I should have. All the same reasons. The not wanting to let go, the fear of what he would do if I were not there to keep the lid on things.

Plan B is risky. There's no doubt about it. But the alternative is that you continue to live in hell with this person in your life who is hurting you in the worst ways possible. The long term health effects alone are enough to warrant the risk.

I think if I were to plan B him, that is what he would do now. Maybe it is a necessary step to have him want to be committed to the marriage. I'm very unpeaceful with this.

Yes, but the difference between Plan B and divorce is that with D it's over. But with Plan B you are being adamant in that you intended this marriage to be for life and that you EXPECT him to get with the program and do what needs to be done. And in the mean time, you will not allow his behavior to continue to be a source of pain for you.

How do you think that it leaves the door open for healing, because there is no friendship, communication, etc. It's kind of the ultimate ultimatum.

Because the premise of Plan B is
I love you, I married you for life, Iwant to stay married, but I can't endure the things you are doing.

No, it's not an ultimatum. Plan B is not a-hit-them-over-the-head-so-they-wake-up kind of thing. It's to protect you from further pain, health risks and drainage of your LBnk while they decide what to do.

He's going to decide one way or the other. This keeps you from being hurt more in the process. Not meeting needs, gives him and you and idea of what D would look like. And keeps you from enabling the behavior by being there part of the time.

You say meeting no needs...does this mean that I will have to mow my own grass? Maybe you can do it for me, you may wear your shirt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What??? Don't you have sun there?????

Are you talking about current hubby? You are in love with him now, are you not? Did you hit relationship-bottom?

No, I am not in love with my H. I could be. It's not the SA stuff that was the killer. It was the never getting around to eliminating the things that hurt or annoy the snot out of me, and especially not meeting needs. My plan is to 1. be honest about how I feel and what I need (as long as I am safe from the anger response) 2. Meet needs as best I can without getting Ms Taker all upset 3. If that doesn't work I will leave, most likely with a Plan B scenario.

As part 2 of the cert. course we are doing the 24 weeks follow up that couples who go to the MB weekend would do. I HAVE to do it, for him it's optional. So far he's been very willing. We'll see.


So how long doea it take? When will you be finished?

The 2nd part is 24 weeks, minumum. And then we follow couples from the weekends who are struggling with the assignments. They and we will be tracked to see how well we do in motivating them and keeping them on track. So, it will be nearly a year in the works.
The thing is, I found MB in the summer of 96, and have been aggressively studying it for the past 5 years. I read all the q/a and articles here long before I came to the forum. I have all the books, and multiple copies of some. I can quote chapter and verse. When Dr. Harley had his own daily radio show we listened every day for nearly a year. Now he is on with Joyce 2x a week, and I rarely miss it. So, for me the cert. is simply to be able to say I have it.

C: Did you read my story at P's thread about the old guy and the prostitute that we saw in DC?

SW:I don't think so, unless it was the lady at the bar that never shut up, but I don't recall you saying that she was a prostitute.

Oh no...... it's better than that.... I'll find it for you. You'll enjoy it.

I'm encouraged that you see this a good thing. I often feel self-ceneted and demanding for the things that I am requiring.

I don't think you're demanding. You are stating the conditions under which the relationship can continue. That's perfectly acceptable, by anyone.

I feel like I need to be open to giving somewhere instead of appearing to have that my-way-or-the-highway approach about everything.

You'll end up resenting him, and her, and your time there will not be productive. You can't work with a C you don't like.

It seems awkward to not do it face-to-face....would work much nicer in my schedule though...

I thought it would too, but it's pretty cool.

Please let my know what you think about drudging up all the old stuff that anybody ever did wrong vs starting fresh and defining a new way to live together.

Oh yeah. Waste of time. You can't change the past, so all you are doing is making everyone upset. The way to handle those things is to be honest at the time and say that you are unhappy. After that the only acceptable way to bring it up is if it is something that is happening now and then you ask to negotiate for change.

So, if it's about kids and discipline, there's just no reason to talk about the things one or the other did wrong. You can't change it. But if the discipline stuff is still an issue you can ask to negotiate for change so that you are both happy with the way it is handled now.

Does that answer it? Or is there more?

Thanks, I missed you. You meet more of my needs that my husband!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Don't I know it!!!! Feel free to ring the bell at my other home anytime, but hey could we have cookies and milk next time??? LOL

C

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

WOW, great reply post Cerri!

Hi SW, everything seems to be happening at the same time for everybody (meaning busy) doesn’t it?

I’ve been feeling down with his lack of effort myself, but getting angry with myself for having expectations. Perhaps, a version of what you’ve been feeling about the Taker?

Cerri’s been giving some great pearls…
Though, I may not be at the place as everyone else and my opinions are different at times, I still remain wishful that I had stumbled upon the MB site before all of it. So, if or when I come to the same point, I’ll know what to do or expect.
Oh well, I guess that’s what reading some of the other thread allow us to do, that is learn without going through it yet (eg not being/feeling in love like you Cerri).

Now, I must clarify a few things.

Firstly, in recent days I have really visited the MB not to participate, but to find some cases that are closer matched to my own. Not necessarily match in details, but rather in current situation or people.

To be honest I have no idea where I am at the moment? Getting v foggy?
S/O did all this because, as he said, he had given up on us. Thought, we weren’t going to make it due to differences, and once it happened once, he thought he could not forgive himself, so how could I?
From, then he just let go whenever he was upset, or depressed about who he was, where he was at in life, work, and not being able to undo what he had done.

Please do not see this as making excuses for him.
These are his words, and I still have not forgiven him enough to believe them for myself until he sits down and tell me the whole story from start to finish, and begin the activities of recovery.

He feels he has told me everything, and he has, but everything major.
I want to re-piece my past with him.
I think you touched on this with drudging up the past.
I don’t know if I’ll do this once and if he does this for me.
I’m stubborn, and I am this way because he tells me he is not going back to that self that was he before. At the moment, he said he wants to be able to do a firm account of what you describe and some (more), Cerri.
He says he does not fantasise about other people, but he does still look if an ultra amazing person walks by. Though, most men regard this as harmless, he does not want even this.
He is practicing to notice (instead of body parts) their handbag or shoes, or jacket. Or, he tries to distract his thoughts back to work, or something he had read or thought of before.
He wants to get to a point where a really good-looking will affect like any other person (male, female, old, young) would. That is, they just exist, another human being.

He says if he slips again, he is through. Not just us, but himself.
To be honest, if he does slip, I must say I wouldn’t care less about where he is at in life.
As one other person has said in my very first post at MB. They said they’d have dropped him like a hot cake.

So, I’m stuck. I don’t know if he is a SA as he admits to be, or he just was lacking in principal/values due to his upbringing?

SW & Cerri, I agree that Carnes’ examples are extreme and clinical, but I read it simply to understand what a SA may think or feel, or what may have led them down that path (Belief System).

Without reading it, he gave me a few extra things that were v briefly mentioned, eg I didn’t think his mother had a role to play except trying to get a man to replace his father as a male role model and for finances. But, S/O revealed that when there was just the two of them, she smothered him so much that he felt like she was too intimate.
The other stuff I think is to do with his father abandoning him. A really traumatic story there too, followed with yrs of denial, and still counting.
Finally, his role model was no good as a role model.

I think this is where I concur with your statement SW. He is not an extreme SA, says he has self-discipline once he has learned the principal, and now he sees how it destroys me.
That is, a connection of the action to the consequences.

SW, the masturbation question.
Well, I’ve told my S/O I don’t want him to because as Cerri said (and as written in Carnes), it is not healthy for those who are SA. They are fantasising, even though my S/O said it has been only about me (exception of once within the first mth of 2nd d-day), and he’s only done this a handful of times in the last 6 mths.
But, Cerri’s explanation is better. That is, “Sex should be between the 2 partners, exclusively”.

I realise I am LB’ing by not letting go of the past, but all he wants is to “move on”, act like life is grand, nothing has happened, and he’s not initiating any discussions.
All he talks about is work.
So, your comments about conversations are you referring to any or specifically about A issues.

See, that leads me to another point. That is, it was just sex, whores. He even considers the last one whom he to be a “whore”. That was what broke his silence. He didn’t want to escalate to what some of the cases that I’ve found in the archives, a full A. Though, he says there was no risk of that with the last “whore”. But, that was his limit.
Humph, means nothing to me. It all hurts.
I recall reading a thread where someone said they’d wished WS just gone to prostitutes, PA no EA.
And, I’m here thinking at least I’d understand if there was emotional attachment involved.
But, then I’d not reconcile and wouldn’t hang onto him. As you said SW, plenty of fish when you have no kids, however I still understand those who do try because of situation…

Ooops, sorry everyone.

I was ranting and raving too much there.

Really needed it though because I've not been able to talk to any of my support (friend) nor him).

Me again,

Cerri, I did come across HPV before and went to do my own research.
Found this site: www.digene.com, with a vg page on it. Go to Clinicians, Q & A's, Patients.

Anyway, I'm lost as you can see by my hap-hazardest postings.
Hope the site is useful.

Eli,
It sounds as if you have done some soul searching, and also as if your s/o is willing to take on the hard work of recovery.

Don't undermine his efforts. If he believes himself to be an addict, as I would classify him also, you are doing nothing but harm in questioning that. It is also disrespectful.... this is HIS psyche here. It seems he is really working hard at staring this thing in the face.

So, recovery stuff. Yes he needs to tell all. And you get one shot at questions. Make a list, give it to him, let him think on it for a day and then answer. When those questions are answered, to bring it up again is abuse on your part.

However, there are things that need to be in place for recovery to occur, and to inisist on those things is your right. It's not demanding. Every one of us has the absolute right to state the conditions under which a relationship may continue.

They are:
No contact.... and this is difficult with this type of infidelity as we well know. The OP was not singular so it makes all women suspect.

24/7 accountability for time, whereabouts and money

A commitment to Radical Honesty... read about here in the articles

A commitment to eliminating LBers and meeting EN's

Obviously these conditions must be imposed on both partners.

Here is a site you might find interesting, and from there you can probably jump to others that are similar.

living together before marriage

Cerri

Here's the hooker/stripper story: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OK P....here's the stripper/hooker story....

Our hotel was right across the freeway from the pentagon. The top floor had one of those revolving circular lounges that
looked out over the city. Washington monument, pentagon, capitol, Jefferson Memorial, and all the lights. Astoundingly
beautiful.

We went up about 9 pm Friday night. Sat down at a small table on the outer ring. The view took my breath away. Ok, to be
really honest it made me cry.... I'm such a sentimental ditz. We order drinks and we're talking, listening to the music. It's all
very nice. Fairly well dressed older crowd, not formal but classy. The place is about 1/3 full. And it's moving, so our
relationship to the door changes.

Right in the middle of a sentence H says...."THAT's not his wife."

I look towards the door and in comes this couple. He's older....mmmmmm....... late 50's maybe, paunchy, balding, well
dressed, definitely not attractive. She is early 20's, very thin, tall, blonde (of course ). She is wearing tight, tight, black
pants, low cut and a red shirt.... low cut, lots of cleavage, short, belly button and much tummy exposed. My first thought is
expensive escort service. I choke.

Every muscle in my body tenses. Remember not only do we have a hx of these type of women, but I've spent countless
hours in restaurants and bars looking at the back of h's head while he watched other women. So, I am on edge and riddled
with anxiety. I watch him to see what happens.

Fortunately for me, they sit facing me and behind h, so that makes it a little better. I try to relax and I succeed a little. And
then I think, "Hey, this is a powerful political city, who knows….. maybe it is his wife." So we chat about that a little. 'Cuz as
much as we want to pretend they're not there, it's like the proverbial white elephant in the room.

So, h is being wonderful. Really doing everything he can to avoid even looking like he's looking in that direction. Even going
so far as to not look out the windows as we revolve in a way that might make that look like he's facing them. The one who
can't stop obsessing is me.

They get up to dance, and h quickly looks away from the dance floor. It soon becomes very obvious that this is not a couple
who has danced together before. He puts his arm around her waist and reaches for her other hand…. you know, the cheek to
cheek style…. their feet are not in time and it's awkward. The next song is faster and she keeps him on the floor to do a
modern style dance; it's obvious he's lost.

They sit, they drink more. We talk and watch other people come and go. I'm not realizing it yet, but I'm getting more tense
by the minute. About 10 we order a second drink. The view is still incredible and it's hard to tear my eyes away from the
splendor of our nation's capitol.

They get up to dance again, but by now she's had more than 2 drinks. So instead of just dancing she is doing the dirty
dancing thing. Now, I'm not a prude and I don't object for the most part, enjoy doing the same thing myself. There's another
couple on the floor that you couldn't squeeze a dime between. But the difference is that they are interacting. With the old guy
and stripper she is doing something to him…. it's not a mutual thing.

They sit through a few more songs, she drinks more, and then she pulls him back onto the floor. But now, she's not even
dancing with him, she's doing this little act thing. Bending, throwing her hair around, you know, but the clothes are staying
on. He leaves the floor, turns his chair to face her and it gets worse. The other couples leave the floor.

By now, I am ill. Ready to cry and throw up. I say, "I'm ready to leave. Now."
"Now??"
"Now."
"But, I'm not watching her."
"It's not about what you're doing."
"What is it then."
"It's about what happened in the past, and seeing it right in front of me, in my face. I don't want to be here."

We left. As we were walking out, the sleazy old guy looks away from the girl on the floor to look me up and down. I gave
him the 'you are the most disgusting sleaziest thing I have seen in a loooong time," look and left.

So I know the fear and the anxiety and the pain and all the things you are feeling. They're not about anything wifey is doing,
it's about the past suddenly intruding into the present.

I went to bed curled up on the edge of my side in tight little ball. Didn't want to be touched or looked at…..she obviously had
not given birth to 7 children…. the memories of all the hurt from the past were too painful.

Because Ididn't accuse him of anything, didn't blame, and didn't get disrespectful….. ohhhhhh I could have, it was all there
waiting to burst out….. we moved on pretty smoothly.

C

Wow Cerri,

That is quite a story. What control you had. Personally, I think that I would have HAD to say something to the old guy, maybe even to her. When I get enraged, I tend to do stupid things like that. When people are dogs, I feel compelled to tell them so. It's not good.

I have much to say, about your post and to you too, Eli. This is puppy weekend. I took all ten of them to the vet again yesterday for checkups and second shots. They are going to their new homes starting today. Also, I'm really busy here at work so I need to attend to that today. Then I am off unil Monday.

So, have a great weekend and I'll talk your ears off on Monday.

SW

Yoo hooooooooo!!!!!

Anybody home???

I gotta run errands and have a meeting, but I'll be around this afternoon.

How're the puppies??

C

Hi Cerri,

I have been working out at a customers office so I haven't been able to write for that past couple of days. I still have puppies...five are gone so I have four more for sale (I'm keeping one). A nice golden retriever would keep you company out there mowing your grass.....they will be "on sale" this weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

How did the bank visit go? Did you get approved to accept charge cards?

Thanks for sending the persistent summary...that helps me to follow along. I've been out of it for nearly a week though, and don't have time to read everything I missed (you guys put some traffic into that thread) so I'll just pick up where you are.

When you get around to it, please send your thoughts on finding a MC /coach that will support the Harley principals and having insurance cover to rain_mom@hotmail.com. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Could you guess that Conversation in #1 need for me?? LOL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I might have guessed that. It is tied at the top for me, with family involvement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, if he's not comitted enough, then what's the incentive for you to keep him? You deserve a spouse who is there for you, committed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that I do and I struggle with this....the incentive would be to not put another divorce on my record, and to remain married which is only worthwhile if it is a positive relationship. I think that it could be but it just isn't moving that direction.

He has been going to SA meetings for the past week or so, he's been to 4 or 5 that I know of. The first one he talked a bit about with me, now he says that he isn't supposed to discuss it outside of the meetings. I know that he shouldn't be telling me everyone elses stuff, but what I am wanting to hear is what he is finding there for him. Does he identify, is it helping him to see, etc. He is very judgemental and views himself about others, so I am not surprised about his comment that they are all loosers. I haven't pushed him to discuss it, but wish he would.

He was over this weekend, and I invited him to go with the kids and I to a movie. I know he wasn't interested, but he went along. I tried to be friendly and affectionate and "up", but he is just flat to me about everthing. No conversation, no smiles, no anything positive. He then said that he has been going to meetings and now we need to resume counseling. Really, if he is going into this with his bad attitude it can't possibly work. I'm very torn about what to do. I think that in my heart, I know it is over but it doesn't have to be if he would just make the efforts in the right places which he is not doing. Not only were my needs not met in my marriage, but they aren't met in separation either. I'm loosing patience with it.

Then there is still the wedding ring issue, which reinforces the lack of commitment.

Oh another thing, his best freind just thinks I am crazy for leaving a wonderful have-it-all-guy like H, so I asked H if the friend knew about all of the sleazy stuff and he said no. Doesn't care to share that. He then said he would also never tell his mom (I haven't asked him to, he just added this), he can't hurt her. That just kills me and I have alot of resentment about that. He isn't even close to his mom, but is is ok for him to hurt me. This infuriates me. Of course since he isn't really talking to me it has not been addressed.

After him being around (in a in-the-room, not a in-the-relationship way) on saturday and then these comments, I didn't feel compelled to meet his SF needs (although I said it mich nicer) so he left and is not a happy boy this week. It just keeps going from bad to worse.

So, about you, and the love issue....has it been like that long? Do you have a peaceful homelife or a homelife of indifference? Does he make efforts to address your needs? Do you meet his anyway? I don't remember off hand....how many of the kids are his? Do the MB weekends help your relationship and do you beleive that love might return? Does my coach need some coaching? Are you comfortable talking about this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please let my know what you think about drudging up all the old stuff that anybody ever did wrong vs starting fresh and defining a new way to live together.

Oh yeah. Waste of time. You can't change the past, so all you are doing is making everyone upset.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I'm sure you know, most MC's do not agree and would love to dig up mud. How would you go about convincing everyone, H included that this might be a better way to go. The other way was obviously not working since when we would leave MC's office, he would be in a no-talking snit for days.

TTFN....

Spy Wife

Hi Eli

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Firstly, in recent days I have really visited the MB not to participate, but to find some cases that are closer matched to my own. Not necessarily match in details, but rather in current situation or people.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you found what you were looking for? I felt that way here too, until I met Cerri. I follow some of the other stuff, but my major relationship issue (SA) I get most of my support from the COSA online group. Interested?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To be honest I have no idea where I am at the moment? Getting v foggy?
S/O did all this because, as he said, he had given up on us. Thought, we weren&#8217;t going to make it due to differences, and once it happened once, he thought he could not forgive himself, so how could I?
From, then he just let go whenever he was upset, or depressed about who he was, where he was at in life, work, and not being able to undo what he had done.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many WS's say this....given up. My issue with that is that rarely is a relationship miserable for one and blissful for the other. It is no justification - its a weak excuse. If you thought it was over - you should have left. Sneaking around F*cking everything you can, is not ever going to help. It makes me sick.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to re-piece my past with him.
I think you touched on this with drudging up the past.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think that is what I meant. I want to start new, not argue before a MC that four years ago, when D did this, you did that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As one other person has said in my very first post at MB. They said they&#8217;d have dropped him like a hot cake.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Easy to say isn't it? We all said it, before it happened to us. My H knew that if he ever fooled around it was over. Well he has surpassed my wildest expections for fooling around, and I here I am. Talk is cheap.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, I&#8217;m stuck. I don&#8217;t know if he is a SA as he admits to be, or he just was lacking in principal/values due to his upbringing? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read something good about this....will try to find for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think this is where I concur with your statement SW. He is not an extreme SA, says he has self-discipline once he has learned the principal, and now he sees how it destroys me. That is, a connection of the action to the consequences.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And hopefully it is enough to prevent it from happening again. Mine still dosen't admit that he is, so yours is tring to address itand this good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SW, the masturbation question.
Well, I&#8217;ve told my S/O I don&#8217;t want him to because as Cerri said (and as written in Carnes), it is not healthy for those who are SA. They are fantasising, even though my S/O said it has been only about me (exception of once within the first mth of 2nd d-day), and he&#8217;s only done this a handful of times in the last 6 mths. But, Cerri&#8217;s explanation is better. That is, &#8220;Sex should be between the 2 partners, exclusively&#8221;.\
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, however H doesn't buy this at all. It's a need for him. Please.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I recall reading a thread where someone said they&#8217;d wished WS just gone to prostitutes, PA no EA. And, I&#8217;m here thinking at least I&#8217;d understand if there was emotional attachment involved. But, then I&#8217;d not reconcile and wouldn&#8217;t hang onto him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's all painful, if they had what we have, they would probably see that differently.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ooops, sorry everyone.
I was ranting and raving too much there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't appologize, this is the best place to rant.

Spy Wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hey Cerri --

I graduated!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I noticed that I am no longer a junior member. Don't know when I crossed that threshold. It made me have to go check your and I see that you are just a member. I really think that is unfair and you should be a senior member or a associate member, executive member, something like that.

SW