Hello my friend,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He insists no one's ever been helped by going to the doc for snoring. Of course, he knows no one who has that problem. But I agree it's the right move.... 8 months ago!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is of course not true, you know. My first husband (boy that sounds bad!) had a severe snoring problem and had surgery to fix the problem. It took care of several breathing issues for him and fixed the snoring. It can be done. Just curious....has he tried the strips that you can put across your face when you are sleeping - they claim to reduce/eliminate snoring. Aren't real sexy-looking though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SH thing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I can't figure this one out. SH? Best I can come up with is sh*t-head, but I'm guessing that isn't it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You really are being difficult.... alright then... who do you want to be? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am difficult it's true. Oh hell, just make me Cinderella because heaven forbid my house not be clean.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Absolutely, still very difficult knowing just what goes through his warped little mind.
Oh yeah. But it's stuff you need to know.
However it keeps everything in the present and makes it hard to move on.
But honey, it IS the present. It's where he is in his becoming aware. It's the place on the path right now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good points. I keep trying to put it behind me because it really tore me up for a long time. I do want him to become aware, but I want it to happen in such a way that it doesn't rip apart my life anymore. Such a dreamer, aren't I?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He last night asked me what I thought about him calling me when he "got the urge" or whatever and we could talk about it. Tough to answer. I said that maybe we could talk, but I don't know what I would be able to say about it.
Well, this is classic MB. You should be the one he calls when he thinks he's slipping. It's NOT fair and it's scary and it hurts and it will make you crazy. But it IS radical honesty. Telling you what he knows to be the truth about himself.................But if you choose to stay, then the recovery process includes you, too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are of course right again. Life was so much easier when I was blind to all of this. I do want him to be able to talk to me about it, but I really don't understand how it is that these guys cannot look at their urges/behaviors, etc and think to themselves, I'm married and of course I can't do that -- or even better yet, how about That just wouldn't be the right thing to do. I really have no desire to be his moral police. For Pete sakes, sometimes I think, I would love to kill him, but then my conscience tells me that it wouldn't solve my troubles and wouldn't be the right thing to do and I have to come up with a different solution. If these guys can put satellites up in the sky, why on earth can they not figure this out? It is the very basics of integrity and he should know it. Get this -- we can not have any illegal copies of CD's. H says it's wrong, it's illegal and he could loose his job about it. Such a paradox to his behavior. Moving on....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh come on. You play truth or dare and giggle night........What? No fighting, no racing/football/basketball video games, no running through the house and up and down the stairs sounding like the neighbors cows got into the house, no eating everything in sight and leaving a trail jets can see </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oops, no sorry....they do eat everything they can find....don't care about the pepsi splashes and the chip crumbs that they leave all over my kitchen, but overall they are not too bad. Watch the new Britney Spears movie, eat, giggle, watch the new Mandy Moore movie, eat gigle. You get it. I have boys too, and frankly when it comes to sleepovers -I'll take the girls.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No more!! I am not putting my life or anyone else's on hold because he behaves badly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am new to this concept but trying. Like this California trip - enough of the waiting game. My children have had a rough enough year with all that has happened. They deserve some fun. Oh yeah- and I do too!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that we all NEED 3. That women tend to need more to fall and stay in love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok - well then we will have to POJA that back up to five -- ok? I'd have a tough time with only three. Perhaps I'm high maintenance. Nah - really don't think so. It said somewhere in the HNHN (I think) hate to be quoting anything to the expert, but I remember something along the lines of "If you cannot imagine life without sex, then you have a need for SF". I though it was extreme, but based on that, most of us have closer to ten. If you look at the "big ones" that bring us the most joy, then yes, there are probably five or less.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Time alone is a need for peace and to recharge. But it's not an EN in the sense that no one falls in love with someone who leaves them alone. It's a requirement of being human, but not of romantic love.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I guess when you put it like that.... but I do enjoy my own company and I think that in a strict Harley-marriage, I might feel smothered.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can do it with me. Let's see....you are doing a fine job of meeting my communication need.
Would you perhaps have a need for shopping and movies too??? LOL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yes. And my fine dining need - have one of those?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Steve. Same as Harley! LOL Did you know all the guys on P's thread are engineers/scientists of one sort or another??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oops ok - different name. Don't know why I was thinking that. No, I didn't know that about P's thread. Interesting. HT is an investment guy though, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One of the most interesting things that I have discovered on this journey is how the abuse cycles happen around eachothers reactions. Now that I have become aware of them, I try not to do my part of the dance that escalates the cycle to the next level. Do you know what I mean?
Like what? Like refusing to escalate when he begins? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess so. Not responding they way that he expects me to respond to button-pushing. Finding new and healthier ways to divert/diffuse hot issues. Instead of -- He brings it up, I get defensive, he does his hot-spot-jumping-act, and I blow up because all of my hot spots have been lumped together, he does the silent treatment beacuse now he's mad, I take the f-u approach, and we wait eachother out so that we can begin again.

So, if I don't get defensive, and refuse to discuss unless he agrees to stay on topic and not just allow him to throw out hot-spot examples from separate topics, then I don't reach the blow-up point. It changes the dynamics of the communication. I wouldn't say it has fixed communication, but I don't let him control me that way anymore. Make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Money/sex, money/sex - no need to be friends and communicate until money/sex are where he thinks that they should be. Cart before the horse I say.
Kinda hard to work out the money and sex stuff with someone you're not communicating with and don't consider a friend!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is what I am thinking, but he insists on resolution of hot topics before working on communication and friendship. Engineer-mentality in that communication means how is the weather, instead of genuine interest in what is happening in eachothers lives. I said last weekend that it is FACT that you have to have communication before your can work out issues -- YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE ABOUT THEM!!!! Me saying that it is fact has no value unless I can site a book where it says so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's a major Giver Snap, I've had it with all of 'em!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You really must add this to your tag line.

So I'm off in a couple of hours to California. Not bringing the laptop. No self help books. No SA stuff. Pleasure reading only. I am re-reading To Kill a Mockingbird. Haven't read it in 20 years. Having withdrawls just thinking of leaving my supports behind.

Talk Monday.
Spy Wife

Hi Persistant

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We haven&#8217;t met, but I&#8217;m P. P as in Persistant. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well no - haven't met but I lurk over at your place quite a bit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> not rocket science. But what can you expect from an engineer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Reminds me - early in our M, I had gotten my husband (engineer) a pin that said "Why yes, I am a rocket scientist". Sounds like you could use a few of those over at your long-plan-A place.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> not rocket science. But what can you expect from an engineer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not a problem....any friend of Cerris........

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don&#8217;t think &#8220;time alone&#8221; is an EN. Actually, at the time wife listed it on her EN list, she was involved in an affair. And TA allowed that to occur. Since D-day, withdrawal, and eight months, TA hasn&#8217;t apparently been a need anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh. I don't need it for an affair....just for sanity.

SW

KalyaAndy, Cerri

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've had the pursuit dreams, but the images are always set in war, crime-neighborhoods, etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had a big problem with this as a child. Came back for awhile after September 11th - did that trigger these for you too?

SW

Hi Eli,

Trying to get caught up before I leave for a mini-vacation. Glad to see you back here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I&#8217;ve turned into this judgemental, loose cannon, mental-case with sooo much anger and hatred. This is what hurts so much. I am not who I was, and I was a great person. Most of me is still here, nothing can destroy my inner being, but there is an ugly presence called hate. A feeling I never really had before all of this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand parts of what you mean. I have been changed as well. I think I am over the hate. I think what helped me make the transition was working on me and learning to understand my feelings about H's actions. I know you also have been reading alot and that helped me so much. I liked the person that I was before also, but I am a wiser person now. In a few different ways. Don't let the hate eat you up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I&#8217;ve read a post-med graduate&#8217;s article where it is suggested that the first thing is abstinence for 90 days.
Have you heard of this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have, and last weekend when H was showing me the stuff he has been working on, something I read in one of the SA brochures talked a little about this. When I have heard this before and didn't question it, I thought it meant Abstinence for 90 days. From what I read in this brochure it seemed to mean that they promise themselves abstinence from their "acting out" for 90 days. That didn't mean whoo-hoo, day 91, it seemed to mean using that time to reflect and track when you feel like acting out, etc. I could be all wrong but that is what I took from it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We talk a tiny, tiny bit, and S/O now doesn&#8217;t really think that he is a SA by definition. He believes he was just a selfish, heartless, [censored] who was completely messed up in the head for all the things that had happened in his life. Also, my understanding on SA is not just what he did, but his mentality/state when he is acting out.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure that there is a mentality that goes along with it. I don't think that you can have un-discretionary anonymous sex while you are in a committed relationship without having a skewed mentality. I don't think it's temporary insanity though...I think that they justify it to themselves. That is why I believe that it could happen again when the conditions are right for it. It's my biggest fear in continuing this relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, he&#8217;s working on being &#8220;priest-like&#8221;, so that even when an extremely attractive female walks pass, it doesn&#8217;t stir him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure that this is realistic long term. Men notice women. Women notice men. I'm no nun, but I wouldn't go sex-crazy on every good-looking guy I see either. There is a difference in noticing and oogling. I can notice a nice looking man without being disrespectful to my spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SW, I am happy for you to hear that your H is going to the meetings. Like your comment about Carnes&#8217; book, there may be many extreme cases told at the meetings to which he may not be able to relate to, but when something hits home with him (known as the &#8220;moment&#8221;), it will dawn on him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad too, but the "moment" hasn't happened. I wish there was a magic wand that I could wave that would fix him. Maybe in this case it is called a lobotomy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he is a full-blown SA, then I may be interested in COSA, but then again I may just leave.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesn't have to be full blown SA. If he has traits of it that affect his life and your relationship,then it is a problem. COSA is something you need to decide for yourself wether is is SA or not. It has helped me. Maybe me taking that step helped him to take those steps on his own. I'll never know, but I am glad that I did, and I am glad that he did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (2) No I haven&#8217;t found anyone at all that I can completely relate to.
Okay, one more honest confession, I guess I&#8217;m really wanting to find someone with a partner like mine, so I can understand him better.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really, I make no money from on-line COSA subscription - oh yeah - it's free. You will find people there that are in situations like yours.

(2) No I haven&#8217;t found anyone at all that I can completely relate to.
Okay, one more honest confession, I guess I&#8217;m really wanting to find someone with a partner like mine, so I can understand him better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (3) How many chances have you given him? Is this the first time your H has been unfaithful? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I caught him in something else before. Email stuff - not action. When I look back, there were many signs, I just was naive. He also did this to ex-wife. First time to me, yes...although when I found out he was up to 8th or so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SW, does your H feel like what he did was the most horrible thing to do to someone you love?
My S/O said that&#8217;s how he feels, though he knows there are worse things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. I still get this blame nonsense, about had I been meeting his needs....he loves having the Harley book to pull that from. It releases him from responsibility. It's rubbish. Neither of our needs were being met and it doesn't justify an affair. Or two. Or three. Or.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SW, I didn&#8217;t know your H was a professor. I know it shouldn&#8217;t make a difference what the client&#8217;s background is, but I wonder if your MC was kind of in awe of that and thus treated him differently.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really he's not. He pulls it out to impress people. He is an engineer with a phd. Taught one class at a university when we first got married.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, you both may as well know, I'm from the land down under (Australia).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I gathered. We don't say "Bloody cruel" here in the southwest. I get a kick out of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you have a copy of H's questionaire? I'd love to see it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No - he had typed it into his laptop. It is a questionaire/assignment from the Carnes/Don't Call it Love book.

Talk more next week.
SW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SpyWife2002:
<strong>KalyaAndy, Cerri

I had a big problem with this as a child. Came back for awhile after September 11th - did that trigger these for you too?
SW</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sept 11th shook me up pretty bad. Living close to the Olympics and knowing terrorists' penchant for media attention, that added to the unease. I did manage to brave going to down-town SLC on the first Saturday during the Olympics - went to an event - got out at the same time 3 other events got out - 80,000 people converging on one little area was the most intense crush of people I've ever been in. And it was bitter-cold that week. I guess the weather froze the terrorists out!

No memorable nightmares after the Olympics, until last week - read on the EN board - I think I posted it last Thursday or Friday. A bit of the war zone I grew up in coming to the surface.

SW, I forgot to introduce myself - I'm Kayla - and I'm married to a recovering sexaholic (sounds like a meeting!)

Nice to meet ya!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> C wrote: Do you have nightmares where you are terrified but there are no images? Just sensations of evil surrounding you? I hadn't had them in a while, but when I was working really hard before my initiation, they came back.

My take on it is that whatever abuse happened that I don't remember, my escape was to go into an altered state of consciouness. So, now when I do that intentionally like in circle, my mind's inner reaction is to think that I'm being threatened. And then the nightmares come back.

I would wake up 6, 7 times a night horribly frightened, and not fully conscious. Like things were lurking in the room. That surreal feeling of being separate from your body. I really want to find a way to work through the fear to the other side, but I don't know how.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I was young, I had (nightmare) dreams without images, just an evil presence, sort of like a suffocating cloud in the darkness. How do you know the feelings of fear are from your reaction to past abuse? How do you know they are not about the spiritual entities with which you come into contact during your altered state of consciousness? Don't you think there are evil spirits? Don't you think those that are the most evil would try to disguise themselves as good spirits, in order to avoid rejection (sort of like people...), or in order to do whatever evil things they want to do?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:

When I was young, I had (nightmare) dreams without images, just an evil presence, sort of like a suffocating cloud in the darkness. How do you know the feelings of fear are from your reaction to past abuse? How do you know they are not about the spiritual entities with which you come into contact during your altered state of consciousness? Don't you think there are evil spirits? Don't you think those that are the most evil would try to disguise themselves as good spirits, in order to avoid rejection (sort of like people...), or in order to do whatever evil things they want to do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">John, John, John..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No no, none of that. I won't beat up on your faith and you will not trash mine. But to answer your questions, of course I believe there are entities that are malicious, and I protect myself.

Disguise themselves? Perhaps, but my connection to the divine is evident in my life, my work, my spirituality, my ethics, my values, my parenting, my being. I draw on that connection for protection. I always ask that all I do be for the greater good of all and that it harm none, I never work in circle without banishing all that is malicious or harmful and calling on the divine for support and protection.

Now about the dreams. I've had these nightmares, the terror without images, even as a child. They've followed me my whole life. Usually I can feel them coming weeks before they happen. They were really frequent in the years I was actively dealing with my childhood stuff. I spent several years working through a dissociative disorder, which is brought about by entering an altered state in order to escape horror or trauma. Which is why I think there's a connection.

C

Hi girlfriend,
I hope you are having a GREAT time there watching the waves roll in.

My first husband (boy that sounds bad!)

I am cnvinced that the real reason we hang on sooo hard to these 2nd marriages is that one failure is allowed and after that you are considered something less than socially acceptable. But then, one of my very dear friends just got married for the 5th time!!

Just curious....has he tried the strips that you can put across your face when you are sleeping - they claim to reduce/eliminate snoring. Aren't real sexy-looking though.

When I think of sexy looking, it's not the nose I'm lookin' at !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But yes, he has. They don't work. He has a different (from my vast experience of sleeping with a whole 2 men) kind of snoring though. It begins with snoring on the exhale and then goes to the inhale. Like air is blocked on the way out first. It's gotten way worse since we first met, and I really think is related to gaining weight and exercising less.

Ok, I can't figure this one out. SH? Best I can come up with is sh*t-head, but I'm guessing that isn't it.

Steve Harley. It was horrific.



Very good points. I keep trying to put it behind me because it really tore me up for a long time. I do want him to become aware, but I want it to happen in such a way that it doesn't rip apart my life anymore. Such a dreamer, aren't I?

We all have our fantasies. Recovery will rip your life apart actively and with a vengeance for at least a year. That's if he gets to work and does it with enerfy. For another year it will be in the forefront of your life, but not as painful. I imagine it will never entirely go away. Some things will always remind you but they do get better. A situation like I saw in the bar in DC will be awkward for a long time.

I do want him to be able to talk to me about it, but I really don't understand how it is that these guys cannot look at their urges/behaviors, etc and think to themselves, I'm married and of course I can't do that -- or even better yet, how about That just wouldn't be the right thing to do. I really have no desire to be his moral police.

No and you shouldn't be. But even if it were not an issue of right or wrong, he needs to ask you how you would feel before every decision. This pretty much eliminates anything even remotely close to the things he was doing. And to protect you from this kind or pain, he needs to be radically honest about his thoughts, feelings, desires,etc. How else will you know that driving in a certain part of town has the potential to lead to something terrible?

Get this -- we can not have any illegal copies of CD's. H says it's wrong, it's illegal and he could loose his job about it. Such a paradox to his behavior.

At least he has some integrity, which is more than I see. There is no hard and fast right or wrong.

I'd have a tough time with only three. Perhaps I'm high maintenance. Nah - really don't think so. It said somewhere in the HNHN (I think) hate to be quoting anything to the expert, but I remember something along the lines of "If you cannot imagine life without sex, then you have a need for SF". I though it was extreme, but based on that, most of us have closer to ten. If you look at the "big ones" that bring us the most joy, then yes, there are probably five or less.

Women tend to need 6 to fall in love and stay in love. And they need heavy duty protection. Men need... and I quote Dr. Harley..... three. They like more, but three will do the trick.

but I do enjoy my own company and I think that in a strict Harley-marriage, I might feel smothered.

In a strict Harley marriage, you would be wildly passionately in love. Remember what that feels like?

And my fine dining need - have one of those?

Oh no. I have food issues. I'll go, but don't make me eat!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

HT is an investment guy though, right?

Yeah, and a software engineer.
I said last weekend that it is FACT that you have to have communication before your can work out issues -- YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE ABOUT THEM!!!! Me saying that it is fact has no value unless I can site a book where it says so.

I got the books.

Hope your weekend is fun. It's pretty tough here. Entering a new abuse stage. The one that punishes me for changing the rules.

Gotta go, taking kids to Y.

C

Cerri,

Re Character: I grew up hearing Snow White and Cinderella too, but I’m more like Pocahontas as I am ethnic in looks. I am not tall and slender with long hair, but I was petite and slender with long hair when we first got together. Aside from that I don’t think I am much like Pocahontas, since my father never cared about me as much as the is story told, nor am I as strong-willed. I am more authentic and self-aware (resilient, spirited).
What does Pocahontas mean anyway?

Mind you, I think my S/O is very much like Eric the prince in the Little Mermaid. Besides looks, he had implanted a stupid image in his head and he was wrong the whole time. He had a great relationship with Ariel, yet he couldn’t see her for the person he wanted.

---------------------------
Yeah, it's very hard to hear how they justify and rationalize what they did. But it is very important information for you to have. In order to protect yourself in the future, you have to know all the ins and outs.
---------------------------

Am I sick or what? I wished my S/O had a reason/excuse for what he did. He simply says “He wanted sex with other people”. I hate that, and if that is the only reason, I want to be through with him because I want him to get what he wanted (vengeful tone). He can missed out on me.
It makes me angry as h*ll, and I want to hurt him back.
I guess, I just want my eyes to open to the world that really is, not be blinded by him anymore. I want to know who he really is, not just the good part of him.

Do any of you ever get so angry you physically abuse them?
I have and I’m not sorry one bit. Though, I know that I stop before any real damage is done, but he uses it as an excuse to not talk to me. That’s he’s scared for his life. He knows and I know that I’m not capable of doing some real harm because I have stopped myself before.

Re: Nightmares, it sounds very intense. As a child I had such fears, and I guess I am still scared of the other side, hence I can’t really watch scary movies (though I did watch Sixth Sense and The Others). But, as an adult I don’t dream much. When I do it is quote deliberate, meaning I am conscious of my dreams as if I were a director.
This does not mean they are good dreams. It’s basically my mind working over time, thinking even when I should be asleep.

Cerri, it seems like you’ve helped many people and they want to help you back. Anyway, P (though I haven’t followed the story due to time constraints) has said many possible things.
I will go one step further and please this is a naïve, inexperience view based on some idealistic immaturity and second hand experience, but I think too many people stay in bad situations for financial or for the children.
Some times I think it’s the wiser thing to get out. Though, this may not be one of those, I know that my S/O’s mother should not have stayed with his stepfather. She stayed for financial reasons. I can understand this, but boy did her son have to pay for it.
His natural father may have abandoned him, but he learned all the lying, double lives, cheating, whoring, and emotional abuse from this other man.
I sensed some real anger to wards his mother when he first came clean, but I didn’t know why.
Now, he is still scared to confront her with this anger, and until he does this, I think he is stuck in the past himself.

SW,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But honey, it IS the present. It's where he is in his becoming aware. It's the place on the path right now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ditto.

I believe he can talk to you, but if he is stuck on his exercises his sponsor is suppose to help him. I am sure he is aware of this, but perhaps he just wants you to know who he is, that is, no more secrets.
I really don’t know. I’m the last person to have any idea about any of this. But, you sound like you were respectful, so perhaps he was just hurt that you were hurt for whom he really is.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't you know the doc was about 25 and cute as a button…. Xray tech too, but she was even blonde. Some days I wonder if it will ever be ok to have a normal life and not be haunted with the past. I'm hyper vigilant about women who cross his path.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vigilant. Tell me about it.
The problem is my idea of good looking is quite high, and those whom he has said to be “attractive” are sooooo under average.
But, the problem is when I see something revealing/sexual (as is the fashion nowadays with the very low-cut jeans, and teeny almost invisible tops), I look at him and I see him avoiding it.
He’s trying too hard, which makes it look like he is not genuine.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He needs to show me that he is actively working on real change, and I'm plumb out of ideas.

One of the most interesting things that I have discovered on this journey is how the abuse cycles happen around eachothers reactions. Now that I have become aware of them, I try not to do my part of the dance that escalates the cycle to the next level.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Taker in me is working over time, but my friend will say that I am still very giving in the relationship. Not sure if it’s just a friend’s support or real.
Anyway, as you said SW, I’m still young, there’s plenty of fish in the sea, so I’m going to expect him to prove himself to me. If that requires him to go to the dens of hell, so be it.
Actually, I’ve read how many WS’s have done this much and more for their BS.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have, and last weekend when H was showing me the stuff he has been working on, something I read in one of the SA brochures talked a little about this. When I have heard this before and didn't question it, I thought it meant Abstinence for 90 days. From what I read in this brochure it seemed to mean that they promise themselves abstinence from their "acting out" for 90 days. That didn't mean whoo-hoo, day 91, it seemed to mean using that time to reflect and track when you feel like acting out, etc. I could be all wrong but that is what I took from it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See, I don’t get this.
S/O says he has not wanted to be with another since his biggest mistake, the one he calls a real-wh*re, now. He says he has made a decision, something he never did in the past. He’s not thought about it since then, almost 7 mths ago, with one exception (refer to past post).
Honestly, I don’t believe him. How can I after finding out that he is capable of lying?
Also, he was able to not “act out” before for mths. So, I go to the next level, abstinence.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure that there is a mentality that goes along with it. I don't think that you can have un-discretionary anonymous sex while you are in a committed relationship without having a skewed mentality. I don't think it's temporary insanity though...I think that they justify it to themselves. That is why I believe that it could happen again when the conditions are right for it. It's my biggest fear in continuing this relationship.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This fear is what drives me at the moment.
But, as I was trying to seek out before, I need someone who is this way because I do not understand or believe in this insanity, though I hope for it with all my might. At least then it is a reason.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure that this is realistic long term. Men notice women. Women notice men. I'm no nun, but I wouldn't go sex-crazy on every good-looking guy I see either. There is a difference in noticing and ogling. I can notice a nice looking man without being disrespectful to my spouse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You and I have “healthy” minds. He said he let himself get out of control and bought into the whole imagery on TV, movies, papers, club scene, etc.
I’m sure you do not sexualise men, the way these sick/unhealthy people do females.

To:
avemaria ,

Welcome, I too am sorry you need to be here. I recall thinking if only I knew what I have learned from being here. School taught us so much, but it didn’t teach us how to look out for ourselves in life.

It’s all hard, regardless whether they are prostitutes or acquaintances.
Actually, the one that I can’t get over is the “friend”. I have days where I feel like that is the one that breaks the camel’s back.
I have screamed at him, I’ll never forgive you for that one. It really does hurt because I don’t understand how someone who has met me can want him, and hung around until she got what she wanted, without any regards for my feelings.

But, it is good to hear that he came clean himself, and it’s been 4 yrs since.

You sound like you have your eyes open, and there communication between you and H.

Most people will tell you to get counselling, and read to learn more (Surviving and Affair, After the Affair, Don’t Call it Love, etc).

If your H is an SA, then I saw a few more books that look good. I haven’t read them yet, but they are on order (e.g. Torn Asunder, Jennifer Schneider, Marsha Means, etc, go to Amazon.com).

PS: This is the perfect place to get things off your chest, just look at me. Classic. Not much wise contribution, but a lot of venting.
Just what the doc advises, I think.
But, I'd also recommend a best-friend or someone who can give you a lot of support.
Do what ever you need to help yourself.

Hey Cerri,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope you are having a GREAT time there watching the waves roll in. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We did - it was very nice and just what we needed. Kids were great and didn't argue or anything. I'm very glad that we went. Six Flags is a little much for my kids at this age. Maybe when the little ones are 12/13 we will go again. Those extreme rollercoasters are well, extreme.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am cnvinced that the real reason we hang on sooo hard to these 2nd marriages is that one failure is allowed and after that you are considered something less than socially acceptable. But then, one of my very dear friends just got married for the 5th time!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, its my 3rd. Tsk, tsk. Oh and I think its my last - at least until my kids all grow up, they don't need to see anymore of this. The kids are from my second marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok, I can't figure this one out. SH? Best I can come up with is sh*t-head, but I'm guessing that isn't it.

Steve Harley. It was horrific. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oops. OK. That never crossed my mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We all have our fantasies. Recovery will rip your life apart actively and with a vengeance for at least a year. That's if he gets to work and does it with energy. For another year it will be in the forefront of your life, but not as painful. I imagine it will never entirely go away. Some things will always remind you but they do get better. A situation like I saw in the bar in DC will be awkward for a long time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ugh. Not what I was wanting to hear. I know it is long hard work, but I can't be miserable for another two years. This year has really taken a toll on me. Not to mention the two years prior were no party.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Get this -- we can not have any illegal copies of CD's. H says it's wrong, it's illegal and he could loose his job about it. Such a paradox to his behavior.

At least he has some integrity, which is more than I see. There is no hard and fast right or wrong.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has sporadic integrity, placed where it is convenient for him. I used to smoke pot - and when we got together he was so against it, that I gave it up. I needed to quit before my kids were old enough to understand it anyway. So after I had been quit for a couple of months, I asked him, are you proud of me. He said no, he couldn't be proud of me for doing what I should have been doing all along. That bothered me, but maybe now I understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I do enjoy my own company and I think that in a strict Harley-marriage, I might feel smothered.

In a strict Harley marriage, you would be wildly passionately in love. Remember what that feels like?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do. But as I recall it, we spent so much time enjoying passion, that the day-to-day important stuff was ignored. I think I didn't balance my checkbook for six months, things like that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And my fine dining need - have one of those?

Oh no. I have food issues. I'll go, but don't make me eat!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh no!!! You are missing a big part of life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said last weekend that it is FACT that you have to have communication before your can work out issues -- YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE ABOUT THEM!!!! Me saying that it is fact has no value unless I can site a book where it says so.

I got the books. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe when your life settles down you can recommend something I can use to convince him.

Do you have groceries? I am very sorry to hear about your home life. That was a large price to pay for having the shed cleaned. Do you have family or a friend that you and yours can escape to? You really need to protect yourself from him. I'm worried about you.

Spy Wife

Cerri -
I've got a question about saying that counseling with SH was horrific. Can you explain what you mean? Was it horrific because of your husband? You don't mean you guys had problems with SH do you? What about Jennifer?
I've just found out a month ago about my husband's ongoing infidelity - the first one before we were married and the last one last month. I've been reading the boards but haven't found too many people like me. This thread has been great for me to read - thanks for sharing.
dinah

Hi gals,

Just reading around the boards tonight. My thoughts are with all of you.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: crier ]</small>

quote:

Originally posted by dinah44:
Cerri -
I've got a question about saying that counseling with SH was horrific. Can you explain what you
mean? Was it horrific because of your husband? You don't mean you guys had problems with SH do
you? What about Jennifer?
I've just found out a month ago about my husband's ongoing infidelity - the first one before we were
married and the last one last month. I've been reading the boards but haven't found too many people
like me. This thread has been great for me to read - thanks for sharing.
dinah

H pulled the same sh*t with SH that he did with every other counsellor. Twisted half truths, paranoia presented as fact, stories
with major events left out, twisting reality until it didn't even resemble what really happened. I'm certain that SH was convinced
that I was having multiple A's. And that I was a raging LBing maniac.

Anyway, when I called SH to talk about it, when I found H's writings that he was faxing to him, it was not a pleasant conversation.
As I said, I'm sure he was convinced that I was having A's.

I'm sure it would be fine for you. Just make sure that you are really upfront about your energy level and ability to deal with
your's H's A. Don't hang on in Plan A too long. The problem was that H has fooled many counsellors before, so he was good at it!

Have you called Dr. Harley on the radio show? It's Monday and Thursday at 1pm CDT. The number is on the radio link above, as
is the toll free #. Call right at 1 o'clock so you are sure to get in. They are wonderful, gracious and you'll get good advice. You
can listen live stream too, info also on the link above. You'll hear all kinds of good stuff. I consider it continuing ed.

Is there anything with your Plan A or Plan B that I can help you with?

C

Hi all,

Haven't been spending time here, been busy making other MB friends.

How are you Eli?

Cerri,

H and I really haven't had many recreational things in common, this is something we will really need to look at if we are going to attempt the 15 hours. With kids, and the autism program and dance and him with fishing and hunting, poker, basketball and whatnot, we have led VERY separate lives.

OK, well last year we talked about taking a tap class together (I already dance, this is new to him) and he was interested. So when I enrolled my kids and myself this year, I asked him if he was interested. He was kind of iffy...see about schedules stuff. Well, now he is saying yeah, lets do it (we have missed one class - started Monday). All of the sudden, I am very vexed about this. I'm not sure why. I need to find a sitter for Mondays before I can commit. I guess it's a good thing.

Also, when the bomb dropped, back in March he had said that if I stayed he would convert to Catholicism, which is something he knew I would like but have never pushed him for. He quit going to church with me and kids about a year ago. So now classes start in 2-3 weeks and I think he is willing to go.

Also, just found out that he is going to a group tonight...appears that he has found a group that he "likes" and hasn't missed a Wednesday meeting since.

These are all very good things and all of the sudden I am having a panic attack about it. I don't know why.

I can't imagine what you could tell me to explain it but I thought I would share. All in all I think its a very good thing.

SW

Hey you!

H and I really haven't had many recreational things in common, this is something we will really need to look at if we are going to attempt the 15 hours. With kids, and the autism program and dance and him with fishing and hunting, poker, basketball and whatnot, we have led VERY separate lives.

Here's the way ya do it. There are 168 hours in a week. After sleeping 8 hours each day, you have 112.

50 for work, that leaves 62
10 for prep/drive and getting ready for bed, that leaves 52
15 for family time.... this is time to spend meeting the need for FC, we can talk about what that is, that leaves 37
15 for undivided attention, you still have 22 hours each week to do other things.

Now granted, the separate activities as a habit will probably need to go. If you click on the "Home" link above and then go to "Questionairres" you will find the Recreational Activities Q. You should each fill this out and then compare. Plan to do only the things that you each rate a 5 or a 6. Do them together obviously.

Some things requiring lots of concentration, like raquet ball or a movie, really don't count as UA. That time should be spent meeting the needs of Aff. SF, conv, and RC. I understand that where you are right now, you don't want to jump back into sex, and that's ok.

The best times that either of you has should be with each other. That's how couples fall in love, and it's the only way to stay in love. Dr. H was very adamant at the conference that there is no way to repair a marriage or restore love without meeting the 15 hour requirement.... minimum.

OK, well last year we talked about taking a tap class together (I already dance, this is new to him) and he was interested. So when I enrolled my kids and myself this year, I asked him if he was interested. He was kind of iffy...see about schedules stuff. Well, now he is saying yeah, lets do it (we have missed one class - started Monday). All of the sudden, I am very vexed about this. I'm not sure why. I need to find a sitter for Mondays before I can commit. I guess it's a good thing.

It's scary for you to be vulnerable. And having fun with someone makes you that.

Also, when the bomb dropped, back in March he had said that if I stayed he would convert to Catholicism, which is something he knew I would like but have never pushed him for. He quit going to church with me and kids about a year ago. So now classes start in 2-3 weeks and I think he is willing to go.

I would suggest that rather than pushing the converting to, that you emphasize the learning about. You should also be willing to give his faith (if he has one) as much time and interest and exploration that he is giving yours. In other words, be willing to respect his beliefs enough to take the time to really be open.

Also, just found out that he is going to a group tonight...appears that he has found a group that he "likes" and hasn't missed a Wednesday meeting since.[/b ]

That is really good news. I think you will see slow and steady changes. It takes time. Lots of it. But it's worth it, especially if you are protected during the journey.

[b]I can't imagine what you could tell me to explain it but I thought I would share. All in all I think its a very good thing.

Change is scary for all of us. Even those of us who think of it as an adventure. You left a situation that was unbearable, and you found some peace, made a life for you and the kids. Now, with his changes, it effects you as well. He is doing things that make it possible to consider letting him more into your lives. The fear you feel is the possibility of being hurt again. It's completely natural and understandable.

Take it slow, test the waters, watch for signs that things are not congruent. Words are cheap, look for actions. You'll be fine.

Hmmmm..... I see it's late. Maybe a BIG cup of chai tea at 8 pm was not the best idea??

C

SW[/QB][/QUOTE]

Cerri, Spywife and Dannu (? - sorry don't remember the name that I just read)

First off...Cerri and Spywife, thank you for responding to my post. I haven't come back for a while as I just went through a very hard time, felt like I was going crazy again...as now after finally beginning to trust H again, realize that he can still lie, mostly to himself, but also to me, which makes we wonder what is real and what isn't....but I am back in therapy and am feeling more grounded...realizing that much is real...just that he is coming out of a lifetime of habitual lying...and it is a process for him.

My therapist is now conscentrating on me and my childhood wounding that allowed me to get into a relationship with a sex addict, and be so oblivious to behavior that I maybe could have spotted.
I even had to call her on it, as he and I first went to see her in 1997 (three years before first D day) and he kept saying he had to have sex everyday and wanted it three times a day....and she didn't spot him as a sex addict.

gotta go door bell is ringing,

I'll check back again,
yes, I would appreciate links to COSA. I went to a couple of meetings of SLA but it upset me too much...mostly because only one other woman's H had as many OWs as me, and she was close to a divorce, deciding he was incorrigible.

I've read "out of the shadows" but still don't completely understand this animal...and my co-addictive part in it.

- thanks again,
avemaria

Hey everyone,

I've not been writing for awhile. Life has been up and down. Not all of life - mostly the marriage part.

Cerri, I told you about something I was discovering and this is what it is....when things are going well,it depresses me...it makes me realize that I am being trusting when I don't have reason to trust...I also have alot of resentment about pretending everything is ok, because it isn't. I don't know what to do with this....I suppose for the good of the future I need to let go of it, but that doesn't feel right either.

H is going to counseling and his SA group - its all very top-secret and it cannot be discussed with me. That feels very unfair. It is this stuff that got us here and I don't like being cut out of the loop in trying to make it better.

Also, Cerri, H knows that I have "someone" that I talk to that is in a similar situation. Last night he told me that he thinks that "someone" is keeping the M from getting better and he told me that I may not talk to her (you) anymore. I told him that I have gotten alot of benefit here and that I was unwilling to give it up. He suggested that he and I just take a "break" for now. We are already separated for Pete's sake. He is "Plan Aing" me because he says that my discussions with you are intimate. He did this once before with a friend of mine - this was after discovery and he said that I discuss my life with her and that is akin to an affair. I believe it is another of his controlling maneuvers to isolate me from outside help.

I think he is reading here. Maybe I should take a lesson from your mutiple personality if you know what I mean.

Thoughts?

SW

I'm here til 8:40 my time. And then from about 9:40 til 1 pm. Email me at info@lifeworks-coaching.net and let me know where and how you want to talk. If you're worried about being read, P's place is better. It's buried pretty quickly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi all,

I have something that I need to get off of my chest. I started this thread to gain support for myself in recovering my marriage. I didn't come here to bash my husband and I don't believe that I have done that. The help from everyone here has been of great benefit to me and to my marriage efforts.

My husband was aware of my posting here, as I was trying to follow the guidelines and be honest with my husband in every aspect. He had agreed to stay away from this communication, it was a verbal agreement between the two of us. He is certainly welcome to all of the other wonderful features of this website. My husband has decided to violate that agreement and another personal agreement that we had made.

My husband is one of those everything-you-say-and-do-can-and-will-be-held-against-you-for-the-rest-of-your-life kind of guys. Since his dishonor of his agreement, I no longer find this to be a safe place to work on my marriage. Marc, you win, if you can call it that. This is just another of your many controlling behaviors to eliminate friends and support in my life, mind you I have always encouraged you in your friendships and other therapies that may benefit yourself or our relationship.

To all of my friends here, goodbye and thank you. This place has truly been a lifeline to me in a very desperate time of my life.

Cerri, you know where to find me.

Eli, please email me rain_mom@hotmail.com

Everyone else, best wishes in your quest for a happy home life.

Marc, perhaps it would be in your best interest to be true to your promises and not violate them the way you have so many other aspects of our marriage. It would be handy to build trust, not continue to tear it down.

Peace and God Bless....
Spy Wife

Hi all,

I have something that I need to get off of my chest. I started this thread to gain support for myself in recovering my marriage. I didn't come here to bash my husband and I don't believe that I have done that. The help from everyone here has been of great benefit to me and to my marriage efforts.

My husband was aware of my posting here, as I was trying to follow the guidelines and be honest with my husband in every aspect. He had agreed to stay away from this communication, it was a verbal agreement between the two of us. He is certainly welcome to all of the other wonderful features of this website. My husband has decided to violate that agreement and another personal agreement that we had made.

My husband is one of those everything-you-say-and-do-can-and-will-be-held-against-you-for-the-rest-of-your-life kind of guys. Since his dishonor of his agreement, I no longer find this to be a safe place to work on my marriage. Marc, you win, if you can call it that. This is just another of your many controlling behaviors to eliminate friends and support in my life, mind you I have always encouraged you in your friendships and other therapies that may benefit yourself or our relationship.

To all of my friends here, goodbye and thank you. This place has truly been a lifeline to me in a very desperate time of my life.

Cerri , you know where to find me.

Eli , please email me rain_mom@hotmail.com

Everyone else, best wishes in your quest for a happy home life.

Marc , perhaps it would be in your best interest to be true to your promises and not violate them the way you have so many other aspects of our marriage. It would be handy to build trust, not continue to tear it down.

Peace and God Bless....
Spy Wife