Dear FBOW
Never apolgoise - so pleased to hear from you again. We have been progressing slowly. Had a very rough period with no constructive communication, I don't think. Things have settled a bit and we are now getting on with the business of living alongside one another. I am still very needy and insecure and, although my H tries hard to show me that he is trying, I sometimes feel very frustrated that my main EN - conversation - is so difficult for him. He is working on it and I think that we will eventually crack it! I know exactly what you mean when you say that it is hard to get through each day - some days I wake up and I am so glad that we are both still here. Other days I look at him and feel so sad and betrayed that I don't know what to do with myself - those are usually the days that I desperately need his reassurance - affection and conversation, but for some reason - work, other things on his mind, etc, he is unable to see it. Having Him at home means that, even if it is LB - he is still around for me to say what I need to say. Sometimes I think that it has been the right thing to do - he will apolgoise for something or look at me with regret and sometimes he will get upset and being reminded about it, or impatient that I am still going on about it, so we end up either arguing or not talking about it at all.

Do I feel optimistic? Last week I would have said no, but this week I have to say yes. I have become obsessive about honesty and, even though he constantly feels that I don't believe him, I think that he is trying to be honest at all times. In fact, the moment that I have been dreading arrived today. The OW called and left a message on his work phone. Although this freaks me out, he emailed me immediately (I was on a course so couldn't take any calls) and told me about the message. He also told me how he felt about it which is such a huge thing for him - I know that and do appreciate it. One thing he has never done is initiate a conversation about the affair - not to say that he is sorry for something in particular, or to reveal anything that could make things better for us in the long run. After today, I am really hopeful that if I give it time, it will come.

FBOW, time is an amazing healer. This pain will never go away - in 25 years when I think about it, it will still hurt - but at least then I will think about it very occasionally, whereas now it is all that I think about. Time has helped me to look closely at other aspects of our relationship and not to focus solely on the affair and the OW. That's not to say that I am not still struggling with the temptation to contact her and ask her to just leave us alone. I seriously thought of telling her H at one stage, but I think it would complicate things between my H and I and I can only focus on us, at present.

I am definitely not the one to ask for advice. I am always so emotional and not very calm - even though I try to be - because he responds so much better when I am not crying or wailing! I have seen a counsellor and it did make it easier for me to talk to my H about my feelings. I felt calmer because the emotion came out when I told the counsellor. Also, she gave me some pointers on how he may be feeling/looking at things. We are due to see a couple's counsellor for the first time on Tues, so watch this space ... When you do see your H, perhaps suggest to him that he writes a list of pros and cons. Explain to him that you want to give this marriage every chance - if it doesn't work you then know that you have both done everything - for eachother and for your kids. Keep focussed on yourself and your children, FBOW. They carry you through and will also give you positive feedback, which is so valuable when you feel as low as what this makes you. Going away for a week on your own is not a bad idea. You know, this morning a cheeky van drive flashed his lights and me and winked - it made my day! Just made me feel as though I am not invisible and that my trying is reaping benefits. We all need a bit of recognition and some time away will give you a chance to look at your situation with a bit of distance and hopefully clarity. It is so hard when you have the distraction of normal life - work, chores and demanding children! Eat well, sleep well and do something different - my H and I are hoping to get a chance to spend a weekend on our own together - not just to rehash the A (which I will probably try to do!!), but to try to learn to look at eachother with new eyes and to re-appreciate good conversation, good wine, and kindness and effort towards one another. Hope I haven't bored you to tears with my rambling - just be grateful I'm not talking - it could go on all day! Take care of yourself - think of you often.
Fishwife

Dear Fishwife,
I just posted on your H's thread, and came over to check on you. I want to encourage you on all the hard work you are doing. Seeing a counselor just for yourself is really a positive step forward for you. I am also doing this and it is helping me a lot just to have someone to talk to - to get this story off my chest - bottling all the feelings up inside just leads to explosions with your spouse.

I hear you when you say you are feeling so insecure and sometimes very needy. We all feel that way, especially in the initial weeks and months after finding out. Your spouse has had a secret life and this sweeps the rug out from under your feet, of everything you believed you trusted in and were working for.
Right now it will be very hard for you to trust him, even when he is making a huge effort to reassure you. The best thing you can do is thank him and compliment him for all the actions he is taking to reassure you. Like you said he e-mailed you when the OW called him - did you make sure that you specifically thanked him for doing this for you, in a way that he heard? I know that you may not feel like you ought to have to do this - for cryin' out loud, look what he did! Isn't it the least he could do, geez! - BUT that's not constructive thinking. You need to make sure that he feels APPRECIATED for doing this - its a hard fact of life that people who don't feel appreciated look for someone else who appears to appreciate them more, so even though you have already been through this, make sure you let him know EVERY time you see him do something you like.

I told your H that I have lost all love and respect for my H because he has NOT done anything to regain my trust. That's true. But I found that when I did actively make it my policy to compliment my H at least once a day on something I noticed in him that I could like or admire, my own feelings for him came more into balance - it helped counter all the anger and resentment I felt against him. I have had a week off - my H has been away - I haven't missed him AT ALL - I am taking our 2 boys to join him in Paris for a week and I am going to try again. I am hoping that with time and in his IC, my H will reach the point your H has.

I also understand your fear and compulsion to snoop and the desperate fight against yourself not to do this. Well - I decided that it weakened me, and regardless of what he does, I don't choose to do it anymore - I have reached the point where I don't care. I wish I did care, but after a year of it, it was making me sick, and I decided to choose myself and what helps make me strong. I know it's hard to do, but the best thing you could do is to stop confronting him - that only drives him further away.

I would also get the book "Mars and Venus Together Forever - Communication Skills for a Lasting Marriage" - by John Gray. I found this book SOOOOO good - it helped me see my H in a whole different light - and to reshape my expectations of him - I didn't lower them, just understood his needs a lot better. Also, there is a good list of "don'ts" on www.divorcebusting.com - excellent advice.

While my situation sounds frustrating, I am not without hope - yes, i'm pessimistic, or rather, now more realistic - I am letting go a lot more, not frantically trying to change either him, or the way things are. All I can do is get on with my life - at some point he may come on board - if he doesn't, he'll miss the best ride of his life!

Hang in there - try complimenting him just once a day on something you have always liked about him. See if he notices this.

Good luck!
LIR

Dear LIR
It makes such a difference to receive yoru support. The last couple of days have seemed very lonely, but I am feeling more positive already! My H and I had a great weekend, but it doesn't matter how good things are, my mind wanders back to past events and I come back to earth with a bump. I constantly measure myself against OW and I haven't even met her! My self-confidence and self-worth are pretty low - despite hard work on "me"! My H was always such a good man - I admired him for being strong, honest and honourable and I feel doubly betrayed that he lied to me and revealed very personal things about my life to OW. I was elated that he chose to stay with us, but since then have been struggling with the thought that he "settled" for me and actually chose our two beautiful sons. That said, it is somewhere to begin.

We are still talking - although sometimes I feel that I am the one that talks and he shuts off shortly after I start! I think that it is beginning to get better, though. It took much perseverence and I wrote to him a few times, because I get so emotional when we have a conversation that it is not always possible for me to eloquently express myself. He would answer or respond to some points and ingore others that were really important to me, but last night we sat down and actually went through one of my letters - point by point. We talked about our feelings and, although we didn't come up with solutions on everything, we came up with workable "targets". Our first session of Couples counselling is tonight and I hope that it will help me to find a way forward. My pain keeps resurfacing - the resentment and anger I feel about his lies and disregard for our family or my feelings - the sorrow of losing my husband and best friend - the suspicion and distrust I feel about everything he says to me now. I don't know how to regain that trust. Everything he does to try to make me feel secure seems to backfire. I know that before, he continued contact with her, regardless of the fact that he told me it was over - that's why I just can't allow myself to believe him now. I wait for him to break my heart again - and if I expect it, maybe it won't hurt as much.

I know what you mean about "losing" love. I don't feel the same about him. The more he has said in her favour, the worse I have felt about myself and about him. Sometimes I even think that if he did continue to see her it wouldn't be so hard to live without him now because he is no longer the same person. Then he walks in, says something kind, looks at me in a certain way, smiles at the boys, and something inside my heart stirs and wakes up. I do believe that the old person is still there and I desperately want to believe that he is trying to get him back. He says that he sees signs of the old me - hopefully we'll have a reunion! I do love that other man - I will always love him, regardless of whether we stay together or not, but I am tired of trying to find the strength to go on alone - I need him next to me, around me, above me and below me.

LIR, I hope that your trip brings you closer together - away from the stresses of normal life and in a beautiful place, full of lovers. I will try your advice of complimenting him every day and I hope that it will also help to curb the resentment. You are so right about the snooping. It makes me feel like such a bad person - I loathe myself for being weak and then I loathe him for not destroying everything about "her". The problem is the trust issue. If I don't check, how do I know that he is telling me the truth? I would far rather ask him, but he has lied before - what's different now? I hate feeling like this. I just hope for proof of his committment - and I hope that I will recognise it!

Thank you for posting and thank you for listening. I wish you a happy, loving time in Paris!
Fishwife

Dear LIR
It makes such a difference to receive yoru support. The last couple of days have seemed very lonely, but I am feeling more positive already! My H and I had a great weekend, but it doesn't matter how good things are, my mind wanders back to past events and I come back to earth with a bump. I constantly measure myself against OW and I haven't even met her! My self-confidence and self-worth are pretty low - despite hard work on "me"! My H was always such a good man - I admired him for being strong, honest and honourable and I feel doubly betrayed that he lied to me and revealed very personal things about my life to OW. I was elated that he chose to stay with us, but since then have been struggling with the thought that he "settled" for me and actually chose our two beautiful sons. That said, it is somewhere to begin.

We are still talking - although sometimes I feel that I am the one that talks and he shuts off shortly after I start! I think that it is beginning to get better, though. It took much perseverence and I wrote to him a few times, because I get so emotional when we have a conversation that it is not always possible for me to eloquently express myself. He would answer or respond to some points and ingore others that were really important to me, but last night we sat down and actually went through one of my letters - point by point. We talked about our feelings and, although we didn't come up with solutions on everything, we came up with workable "targets". Our first session of Couples counselling is tonight and I hope that it will help me to find a way forward. My pain keeps resurfacing - the resentment and anger I feel about his lies and disregard for our family or my feelings - the sorrow of losing my husband and best friend - the suspicion and distrust I feel about everything he says to me now. I don't know how to regain that trust. Everything he does to try to make me feel secure seems to backfire. I know that before, he continued contact with her, regardless of the fact that he told me it was over - that's why I just can't allow myself to believe him now. I wait for him to break my heart again - and if I expect it, maybe it won't hurt as much.

I know what you mean about "losing" love. I don't feel the same about him. The more he has said in her favour, the worse I have felt about myself and about him. Sometimes I even think that if he did continue to see her it wouldn't be so hard to live without him now because he is no longer the same person. Then he walks in, says something kind, looks at me in a certain way, smiles at the boys, and something inside my heart stirs and wakes up. I do believe that the old person is still there and I desperately want to believe that he is trying to get him back. He says that he sees signs of the old me - hopefully we'll have a reunion! I do love that other man - I will always love him, regardless of whether we stay together or not, but I am tired of trying to find the strength to go on alone - I need him next to me, around me, above me and below me.

LIR, I hope that your trip brings you closer together - away from the stresses of normal life and in a beautiful place, full of lovers. I will try your advice of complimenting him every day and I hope that it will also help to curb the resentment. You are so right about the snooping. It makes me feel like such a bad person - I loathe myself for being weak and then I loathe him for not destroying everything about "her". The problem is the trust issue. If I don't check, how do I know that he is telling me the truth? I would far rather ask him, but he has lied before - what's different now? I hate feeling like this. I just hope for proof of his committment - and I hope that I will recognise it!

Thank you for posting and thank you for listening. I wish you a happy, loving time in Paris!
Fishwife

Hello All
We went for our first couple's session the other night and, although I found it very helpful, there was another bombshell before we went. I found that there had actually been contact between my WH and OW, during a period when I believed there to be none. His phone-bill arrived and he said that we should sit down and go through it. He was busy, so I began on my own and saw that there had been some calls. I freaked out. At the counselling session he explained that the reason he wanted to go through it together was to tell me that there had been contact (before the no-contact letter and not since) and that this was to ensure that, once he had ended it, there would be no more going back. After all the disclosures, I have to say that I was so hurt that he had lied again - I had specifically asked if there was contact during this period. We have subsequently been able to have a really constructive conversation telling eachother our current feelings, our fears for the future and our worries. He is very concerned that I may initiate contact with the OW because he wants things to be over for good and for us to get on with our lives. I also recognise the need to move on with our recovery and I have resolved to try not to push him for conversation related to the A unless we are at counselling - that way I know that there is a time when I can vent my feelings and if he approaches me in the meantime, that is a bonus. He confessed that he still wonders every day if he did the right thing by staying. This is so hard to hear, but I hope that as we have more good days than bad, his resolve will strengthen and he will feel more settled. We both know that we have so far to go and I think that makes us both feel so despondent - if only there was a "quick fix". Last night he revealed how events in the time before the A had hurt him terribly. I wish that I could take all that pain away, because I believe that it has made him cautious about giving of himself. Does anyone have any suggestions on how we can deal with these two areas of conflict - his worry that I may contact OW and my worry that he may leave when we are having a bad period? The trust issue is a huge one for us. We are trying to listen - even if it is something that we don't want to hear - I think the counsellor is going to help us with this.
We are going away on our own for the weekend. I am looking forward to just being me for 2 days - not someone's mother or someone's wife - just me - out with someone I care about. This morning the sun is shining and my heart is a little lighter. We are going to get through this. We are going to be better people because of this. I am going to be a better wife and I hope that he will be a better husband - we will never take love or kindness for granted again. Love is so precious that when you have it, it should be nutured.
Just needed to vent!
Fishwife

Have a good weekend together and congrats on painful but noticeable progress!
FBOW

Dear All
Returned from a wonderful weekend, but seemed to self-destruct with morbid determination on the way home. We spent a wonderful day together on Saturday - laughed, chatted, explored - were good to eachother. My H was receptive, so on Sat evening we began to talk about feelings, some talk of the A and OW - and because he listened, I got carried away and what was meant to be a "chat" turned into a 3 hour long talk. As it progressed, my focus changed and in honesty, all I wanted from him was his assurance that he was here to stay - to try to put things back together again, to commit to the children and I - to try to fall in love with me again. As usual, I pushed too hard and things became very strained. The evening ended with an uneasy truce (apologies from me) and both of us very tired. This morning I tried to say sorry again - was as good to him as I knew how, but didn't get much of a response. We went for a walk, talked a bit and I expressed my feelings - he withdrew, but over lunch I thought that we sorted most of it out. The trip to fetch the boys was pretty strained - he just seemed to cut me off, so I was quiet. Then he tried to initiate conversation, but I answered his questions - was preoccupied with thoughts of lonliness. It was a long journey home and we did manage to discuss my insecurity and frustration. We both offered some suggestions to help. The destruction continued! I remarked how I was not really in possession of what he finds sexy in a woman. He did say that I was attractive and that he did alright! I said that I would never feel "beautiful" again - that feeling when your partner loves you - everything about you - just because it belongs to you. That safe, totally confident, unquestioning love. He got mad and wanted to know why I was putting him in a difficult position. We got home and I blurted out that I just wanted my friend and husband back - that person who loved me. He didn't know what to say and continued with his chores. While he was in the bath, I sat with him, hoping that he would initiate a conversation - anything tender and comforting, but he was very distant and irritable.

What am I doing? I desperately want him to commit to me - in every way; but I am never satisfied with what he gives and always crave more. I am so tired. Sometimes I think that I will never feel loved again. What happens if I open myself up - forgive him, love him again completely, and he leaves me, resumes his A or never feels for me again? Can I bear it? Why must I constantly question and push? How do I have my ENs met without driving us apart? He does try, but when I "spoil" our progress, he gives up on me - withdraws, gets angry or upset and we just grind to a halt. I don't know how to stop myself from tearing us apart.

My focus has shifted from the A full-time to include our relationship problems. I know that this will take time, but my anger, frustration, hurt and insecurity is making me crazy. We are due to see our couple's counsellor again tomorrow, but I find it difficult to express these feelings. I am also afraid that he will give up before I pull things back together. Please, please give me some direction.

Dear Fishwife,

I can understand your frustration with a slow progress. But you did admit yourself that things are better sometimes between two of you though.
I know it doesn't seem fair that after WS declares willingness to recovery it doesn't happen immediately and everything is made whole again like they waved a magic wand.
Boy do I pray that I will get a chance at that!
I think this is called a withdrawal stage, full of doubts and pain for a WS too. It is the BS role, according to MB to remain open and friendly, no matter how tiresome and ungrateful this task might be. Because it is us, the BS who really declared the will to rebuild, lucky BS's have the commitment to join in the effort from the WS.
I hope someday I will be in your position and I hope even more than plan A I'm at right know will get me stronger and feeling better about myself to successfully go thru this stage with no LB's, no angry outbursts or demands.
I did find patience within me I never thought I had before. I found that because he is away I am able to control my urges to burst out, to contact him immediately and so on. Maybe it is because I know I did contribute to unfulfilling M, and this took years, so how I could expect to resolve all issues immediately?
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the rebuild process requires openess about your true feelings - be it anger or frustration with slow progress too. It also means possibly hearing confessions about not being "in love" with you yet. For myself if I ever get the chance to share my feelings I will probably do it in writing first, so I can calmly and carefully use non demanding languge and avoid being too emotional about it. Maybe if it will go well then we can progress to say, limited time like 30min weekly scheduled talks- I don't know. Hopefully other member who are in recovery will offer you more proven tips. I will sure listen to this type of advice as well.
Maybe your MC could help by asking your H what form of you expressing your feeling would feel nonthreatening to him. Maybe he feels so guilty that any negative input from you makes him want to run away?

My kids are leaving this week. My H should be back in 3 weeks. I have no idea what to expect from him after his return. That's why I'd rather keep my expectations low.

Got to go - I have a temporary membership with my daughter at hers gym so I better use it.

I know with your determination you will find the right way around this obstacles in recovery process.

FBOW

Dear FBOW
Thanks for your post - always great to hear from you. I'm so glad that your Plan A is making you feel stronger. I'm afraid that I have fallen right off the wagon and seem to spend all my time LB! Posted a note on GQII - we had a very bleak night last night. Began well, but deteriorated rapidly towards the end of the evening. We spent the night on opposite sides of the bed - far too reminicent of our old days for comfort. When we get to this stage, it doesn't matter what I do - we can't get back on track. I have tried apologising, I've tried physical contact - I've even tried offering myself to him, but even though he has also apologised, he withdraws completely and "punishes" me with the silent treatment. I do understand his fatigue with the re-hashing of this issue over and over again. He has asked for a break and I will try to give it to him. I just want to get it all over and done with. I do feel that we have made progress, but when I find out about more lies, my heart hardens and I find it hard not to LB. He doesn't seem to understand how important his honesty is to me - I think that it is actually a basic requirement for our recovery. He is trying to be honest with me now, but we are 2 weeks less farther down the line than I thought, because he had contact with OW. That frustrates me because I really believed that he knew how I felt during this period - I thought that my feelings were important to him and that he was trying to build bridges. He says that he was selfish at the time and that all he was focussed on was ending it in a way that he wanted to. I know that he thinks that it was the right thing to do - I understand that he needed to do this for himself - I hope that it laid his ghosts to rest. I do feel betrayed because he lied to me so convincingly and I desperately want to believe what he is saying now, but I don't know when he is lying and I don't know how to trust him again. Does anyone have any suggestions about what we can do to build on this? My IC tells me that only time and his efforts to prove his transparency can build trust - I hope that there is something else that will help, because we need some "quicker" help! I miss our easiness with eachother. I do still feel so lonely sometimes and I know that he feels it too. If only I could forget everything about the A and our problems, and focus on being happy together - just for a chance for us to breathe - and fall in love again. Apologies for the rambling - talking does make me feel better - that's the problem! We have tried putting a time-limit on our conversations, but it doesn't seem to help him. I am still tortured by insecurity and doubt. I loved my husband completely and I am afraid to do that again. I pray that he will feel love for me and then maybe we can work on making our marriage solid, happy and passionate - for good.

Dear Fishwife,
Sorry to hear you are still on the up and down rollercoaster. Have you read any of the articles on this site? There are several that might help you - one is about withdrawal - most of the BS on this site focus on the WS withdrawal from their lover - your H is going through this now and you need to let go of him - stop trying to get back what you think you had. What you had wasn't what you thought you had and who he was wasn't what you thought he was. So what you are wanting back right now is your own fantasy of what you thought you had. All of us go through this - its a terrible shock. But later comes acceptance - I for one, do not want to go back to what I thought I had - I want a real marriage with a real person, not a fantasy, not even my own fantasy. Your H has decided to stay with you and you will have to accept that he isn't EXACTLY who you thought he was - he is flawed, as we all are - your question now is, how do I get to know this man, and is he someone I can love, even though he isn't perfect? He has admitted his mistakes to you (believe me, that is more than LOTS of men have the courage to do and puts him miles ahead of a lot of them and should count for a lot).

But withdrawal also happens between H and W - he went through withdrawal from you, although you didn't notice at the time. SH article says that cycle goes from loving to conflict to withdrawal. Once a couple start to come back together, they come into conflict again while they work out their differences. The more you press him for it to all be over and done with, when for him it IS already over and done with, just makes him feel like nothing he does is enough for you and sends him back into withdrawal from YOU again. This is a good reason why you need your own counselor to talk to, so that you don't get into these long, exhausting emotional conversations with H which never get anywhere. Believe me, I have made this "mistake" many times with my H, and its always because the tension builds up in me to hear what I want to hear - I don't hear it and finally I try to push him into talking to me on the chance that he might come forward and tell me what I need to hear - this never works. For me, I am just going to stick with our counselling over a long period of time, and try to build our ability to communicate in different ways. The biggest thing for me is letting go - BrambleRose posted something a couple of weeks ago on Acceptance, taken from Al-anon, its over on GQII somewhere - it applies perfectly to infidelity and I found it VERY helpful. If you find yourself saying "If only..but...and I can't..." these are clues that you need to let go and shift your focus to more positive actions you can take for yourself.

I know how you feel about trust - I am going through this myself. SH has another good article on resentment - and for what it's worth, he says spouses shouldn't trust each other - anyone is capable of having an affair - accept that you will never "trust" him again, and try to build a new relationship with the flawed and human man you have. I KNOW that honesty is the basis of this new relationship - the first step in the building process, but honesty is a policy practiced step by step over time. Most WS lie and it is very common for them to reveal details bit by bit - they know they have hurt you and are afraid of every step hurting you more, and they feel shame and guilt. Yes, it seems like a new lie, but its "normal" WS behaviour - it just doesn't all come out at once. To me, it sounds like your H is really trying, is very remorseful and wants his life with you to work - yes, he is also staying for the boys - but you know what? You ARE his wife and the mother of his children - no-one else can ever take that place - be proud of that - the loving feelings you so desire CAN be rebuilt, but over time, with dedicated attention paid to each other, not just in a few short weeks. You are a kind, thoughtful and hard-working person who has been very dedicated to her H and family - I am sure that he sees that and appreciates that about you. I am sure that you will find new ways to be with each other - this is just a very intense time, but will pass.

Hang in there!
LIR

Dear LIR

I have read the articles you recommended and feel that I have a better understanding, as a result. I know exactly where you are coming from when you say that you needed to hear something, so pushed your WH in the hope that you would hear it. I do the same all the time - trouble is, I never get to hear what I need, which makes me despondent, which makes him mad, which makes me withdraw in the end! When I discovered that he had lied again, despite assuring me that I could trust him, I just wanted to give up. I am trying so hard to be the sort of person that he can talk to, with very limited success, it seems. I have tried very hard to give him the space he needs and to take some pressure off him by not discussing the A or our problems. I see him becoming a bit happier, but I have to say that sometimes I feel as if I want to burst and have to go and do something to keep busy, for fear of serious LB! To date he has not approached me to initiate a conversation about this. I am also excluded from a lot of private areas of his life and although this never bothered me before, this is how he managed to sucessfully conceal the A for so long, so I have to admit that it bothers the hell out of me now. I have not done any snooping, regarless of how strong the urge has been - and I feel better because of it. I do feel worse about the trust issue at the moment, though. I am trying hard for us just to "live" as a family - do normal, happy things together, in the hope that we can all settle and he will then feel able to approach me about things he is having problems with. You are right - I don't want to be with the man that he has been for the last year - I don't believe that that was the man I married or fell in love with. I do believe that he is a good person and that he has so many good things to teach my sons (and perhaps me), but it is so hard to get through the awkwardness that is between us sometimes.

I still plan for our future and try to look ahead to tomorrow, but I'm not so sure that he is doing the same. I think that he is still very much in a "wait and see" frame of mind and that just makes my insecurity worse! We have had a pretty good week, compared to others, so I suppose that I should be very grateful. I just wish that I could know, without any doubt, that his relationship is permanently over with OW, that contact has ceased and that his committment to us is genuine - it would make opening myself to him so much more easy and less risky.

I hope that things are easier for you and that you and the children had a good time, last weekend. You are such a source of good advice and strenght - thank you for being there.
Fishwife

Dear Fishwife,
I am glad that I was able to be of some help to someone - I certainly don't feel wise, especially right now - I have stopped posting for myself for the time being, since everything in my situation seems to have arrived at a complete stalemate. I am stuck in anger and know that that is not a good place to be if you are supposed to be doing a "good plan A'.

Well - I think I do understand just where you are coming from - your thoughts and fears and sense of insecurity are so similar to mine - my H's "right to privacy" is a huge issue for him, and although I trust his integrity in other areas, we also have problems about the way he guards his money from me as well - I am not a "spender", so his control over money causes a lot of resentment in me. And much of the "pushing" I have done has come from a sense of powerlessness - trying to wrestle some control back from him by pushing him into an emotional confrontation not of his choosing. I have come to the conclusion, in my marriage that this is not effective. I won't say it's a "mistake" because I don't think I have done anything wrong by seeking emotional contact with my H. But he is not willing to give it when I need it. So pushing him is not effective. He will only give when he is able and right now he is not able.

For me, I have found the book "Mars and Venus Together Forever" by John Gray particularly helpful - it helped me see how to approach my H differently and to accept that his lack of communication wasn't necessarily a bad sign. It helped me "read" and interpret his reactions differently. I would say read this one if you only read one book on marriage. We have a long way to go and I don't know if we will ever get "there", but I am still here.

We did have a nice time in Paris - I snapped at my H a couple of times, but we also had some nice times and the kids had a great time. I took the kids there and back via train-ferry-train by myself, and my arms are now falling off! I feel like I have been weight-lifting for Britain, but you know what? I did it! I made it - I took good care of them and there were no mishaps. I did something I can be proud of. My H has been in the Netherlands this week on a course. He e-mailed me today for the very first time - said he had gained a lot of inspiration from his course for the first time in months and felt a lot happier because of it. This is the first time he has included a "feeling statement" in anything he has said to me - so maybe his therapy is helping him. It also sort of confirms for me that he needs things to be stimulating for him career-wise - things were rough for him at work these last few years and I think his EAs were something he fell into to boost his ego - wish he could gain some insight into himself to recognize that he needs to gain "inspiration" from things like this course and NOT from steamy e-mails to OW! Arrgh!

I'm sorry to hijack your thread. Probably a sign that I need to post my own again!

You sound better today - if it helps, it seems to me that your H is being honest with you - and you are both in counselling, so use your counselling sessions to talk through the trust issue - over time, this should work out. Also, have you read the articles on Recovery and Overcoming Resentment? I found them helpful, too.

One side benefit of lurking - a few days ago, I found a WS poster on one of the other forums who ACTUALLY made me grateful that I am married to my own WS and not to him! My H comes home tomorrow and because of this I think I will have some kinder thoughts in my heart. Strange world, isn't it!

Take care,
LIR

Fishwife -
I have read your story- it really hit home because you and I seem to be living such similar lives lately. We are about the same age, d-day is about the same, both have 2 young S's, and are both struggling to renew our troubled marriages. I admire how strong you have been through this ordeal and hope that I can learn from your example. (My story is under "Wish I knew what is ahead for me....").

I noticed the reference to "Mars and Venus Together Forever," in your thread. I am going to pick up that book today and do some more reading. Sometimes I feel like I can't absorb any more, but the little changes in my behavior that my husband notices keep me going. I have realized that I am slowly becoming a happier person after I hit the bottom shortly after d-day. I even noticed myself singing as I was changing bed linens yesterday! I don't know that my husband's A has ended yet - I am pretty sure that there is some kind of contact. But I also get the feeling that he might be trying to put the brakes on with the OW. I don't know why - intuition maybe. He is less protective of his cell phone and I can tell that he is spending much less time using it. He is also happier spending time with the boys and I. Maybe the natural end of the A is close.....?!?!

I know that deep inside my husband is a good person. He is a wonderful father and he is my best friend. He is the only lover that I have ever had - and the only one I intend to have throughout my life. He and our family are worth getting through this. It is just so much harder than I thought it would be, you know? I feel lucky that I am not as angry as some of the other BS that I have read about on this site. Of course, I do have my moments, but I am able to control my anger and focus on not LB'ing. (Sometimes it is VERY hard, though!) I have forgiven my husband for his A, but it hurts that he has not totally committed to making our marriage healthy yet. Like you, I feel like he is still kind of "undecided" about where this is going to lead. We plan for the future, but the future is shaky right now.

I think a big part of our problem is communications. My husband, like yours, struggles with sharing his feelings. That is why I am going to read the Mars & Venus book. In the meantime, I am doing my best to Plan A without LB's and to meet his top emotional needs. I want his heart 100%!

Good luck, hang in there, and keep your chin up! You are doing a great job for yourself and your kids. It is hard, but worth it, right?

WTW

Hi Fishwife,

I was just lurking for past week or so, hope this week was not too difficult and that you both made some progress.

I am getting antsy as I should see my H in 10 days!

I have no idea how the initial meeting will go, I am happy but try not to get unwarranted hopes to high.

Will see.

I am getting carpet cleaned today, got my haircut, will get nails done too (2nd time in my lifetime!).

And have not gained a pound since my big after D-day drop!!!

Still working on the remaining 10# though.

Trying to remain positive and trustful.
FBOW

Dear All

Thank you so much for your posts - I'm sorry I have not responded earlier - have been "lurking".

LIR
I do so hope that things are better for you - I have been keeping an eye on your posts.

WTW
Good to hear from you. I did try to locate your thread, without any success. How long have you been Plan A'ing and are you and your WH having any success?

FBOW
Good to hear from you again. I know that your WH is due to return soon and hope that you are holding up. Sounds like you continue to be strong and resolved - thoughts are with you.

Last week was a "good week" - more good days than bad! My WH and I have been getting on with the business of living, and I have been trying hard not to LB us to death! We spent the weekend away with family and I thought it was great (got a cautious "good" from him)! I have not persued talk of our situation continuously as I am aware of the pressure this seems to put on my WH. However, after a while the pressure of needing to talk is too much and last night I sought out a conversation. It began amicably enough, but upon his encouragement for me to open up, I revealed my heart to him. I am still hurting so much over details of his relationship with OW. The thought of him with her, some of the things he did to me (unintentionally, but nevertheless), some of the things he has said, have all taken their toll. Most of the time I successfully look forward, but every now and again, I need to address the past. I also revealed how difficult it is for me to open up to him and let my feelings grow. This is because I am so afraid of continued contact and of him breaking my heart again. Unfortunately I can't have a conversation like this without becoming emotional, but he gave me his attention and I thought he understood. I'm not so sure. Shortly afterwards he withdrew markedly - became quiet and withdrawn; reluctant to be close. I find this frustratingly predictable. To date, almost every time I have opened up to him about my feelings, he has reacted in the same way. After a lot of pushing on my part, he admitted that he felt embarrassed and guilty and that he thought that I was attacking him. This was not my intention at all. I just tried to talk to him - to tell him of my feelings - pain, fear, insecurity, worry - but he doesn't seem to listen to what say. He hears the first bit, then makes up his mind about what I am trying to say and thinks I want something from him. I do - his understanding. His patience. His continued support and commitment. I don't want him to "fix" this immediately - it is something that we both have to do and it is going to take time. But I do want him to consider my feelings and try to look at it from my perspective, sometimes. There have been many occasions when he has said something that has cut me to the bone, but I have tried hard to take on board his previous comments and to listen before. I feel that he punishes me for being honest.

I left the room afer I had LB'd and sat alone for a while - he never comes to apologise or to try to initiate reconcilliation under these circumstances. I feel that it indicates his indifference. Finally I went back and near enough demanded a discussion. He was great - he listened to what I had to say, contributed his view and then said that he will try to listen, in future. Just when I despair that he will ever understand, he says something that makes me think - wow - he got it!

We continue. Things are calm again and hopefully the night will be a good one. I wish that someone could give me an indication of how long it could take for the love to come back - it is so hard blindly fumbling on, hoping that I am doing ok and that he is beginning to regain the spark and then the flame that once burned for me. I miss my friend, I miss my confidante, I miss my partner, I miss him. There are times when I think - I am happy - he seems happy - is this real? Thanks for letting me vent!
Fishwife

Dear Fishwife,
thank you for remembering me.
Your perseverance and progress you and your H make despite difficulties give me some hope and strenght.

I am very anxious now. I know that for me to be able to have any meaningful and calm conversation I have to stop being nervous. I will try and also I am going to take it easy for first few weeks; and if the subject will not approached, I will do it by the end of August. I hope I will not have to be the initiator - at least I think I deserve honesty and openess AND courage. I am going to continue plan A for now since I had little time to do it not over a distance.
I am learned enough not to LB, I do have real love left so plan A is still natural for me, several of my friends noticed that I do look better physically now ( they don't know what's going on) and I know that if I could cope for two months I will manage to cope no matter what.
I just miss my kids terribly now - but maybe it is better we will have two weeks by ourselves.

Till later,

Thank you for you thoughts
FBOW

Dear FBOW
I can't imagine how difficult it must be to work through something like this on your own. I have moments of true despair, but my H is still here and those moments pass. We are in a bit of a difficult place at the moment - our connection seems to have weakened and I do feel a bit lonely. He is very busy at work and I think that he feels that the worst may be over, so the continued contact throughout the day is no longer necessary. I miss it dreadfully. I only realise now that it has waned, how much better it made me feel. I still have times of terrible insecurity and every word is still analysed to death, but I believe that we have something so precious that it is worth persevering for. Our boys continue to give us both pride and pleasure and we are having more good days than bad.
Good luck over the next few weeks especially - keep strong and keep the faith!
Warmest regards, Fishwife

Dear Fishwife,
Just to let you know I checked up on you - it sounds like you are doing better, but it is so hard - this is the hard part - rebuilding your R, and it takes time, time, time.

It is interesting what you have to say about H withdrawing after emotional conversations. If you have read John Gray, you will realize that this is normal for men. He needs some quiet space to take in what you have said - he needs to meditate on it, digest it, think about it - he simply cannot process it in his brain at the speed you want him to - men and women's brains are hard-wired differently - women think with both halves of their brains at once, men only "think" with one hemisphere at a time. Women take this withdrawal as a personal rejection when it is not meant to be. I would try to give him the space he needs. You need to talk and this is fundamental for your well-being and feeling of emotional security. So you need to find a way to get what you need without alienating him. First, prepare him - ask him if this is a good time to talk, if not, would later be better. Tell him to get back to you. Let him go away and digest the fact that you need to talk. He will probably come back and say now is not right, but how about at X time? This gives him the feeling that he is in control of the situation somewhat - men HAVE to prepare themselves to be able to listen. Listening is hard for men. Then, when you start talking, tell him what you want him to do - give him his job - tell him you don't need him to "fix" anything and all you need him to do is listen to your feelings. He may feel some sense of blame, especially in this situation - any way you can minimize this so that he doesn't feel that this is a "beat me up again" session would be helpful. Afterwards, let him withdraw - he needs this. After all, if you have just told him how bad what he has done has made you feel, he is not going to feel like being close to you. You feel better because you have shared your feelings with him. He feels awful because you have just reminded him of how bad he has been to you.
At this point, I would recommend that you stay away from these kinds of conversations and share these feelings with your counsellor.

What you want is to rebuild love between you - while you have a lot of fear and insecurity that need to be addressed, you also want to make deposits into his LB. THAT is what is going to make him want to draw closer to you - in other words, what you need is not necessarily what he needs in order to be close to you. You need to find out what HE needs and start trying to provide that for him. While this is usually impossible if an A is ongoing, or while the WS is in withdrawal, since your H has ended his A, and since he may be coming out of withdrawal, you have a better chance of being able to do this for him. I know this sounds one-sided for now, but from what others say on this site, it won't always be that way.

Take heart - things do get better - but slowly! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
LIR

Dear LIR
After some thought, I realise that what you say about his withdrawal after our conversations is probably true. I do take it as a personal rejection and I do feel a lot better after sharing my feelings with him! I have made a concerted effort over the last couple of days, not to discuss my feelings with him - I don't know how to verbalise them very well, for one thing, and although he has pressed me several times to talk to him, I feel that this is probably more for my benefit than his. My heart is really aching at present, but today he sent me a really positive email - full of talk of improvements in our financial life and of his hope for our future. This is exactly the sort of thing I need, at the moment. I tried to show him last night that he is still so important to me, regardless of whether or not I tell him my feelings, and I think I may have got the message across.

I have been revealing my feelings to my councellor, but she has repeatedly encouraged me to be completely honest with him - as that is what I want from him. He said once that I will never know how sorry he is - that is probably true because, although he often says "sorry" - he doesn't tell me what he is sorry about. Although this makes him feel guilty and embarrassed, it would help me to hear it because I often wonder if he know how I feel. Our problems that led to his A are still there, but I hope that we are beginning to address them. I just need a bit of encouragement sometimes, because maintaining Plan A is sometimes very hard!
Thank you for your response - it helps so much to vent.
Take care of yourself.
Fishwife