Hey man.<p>By me posting the link to my thread, I was not at all trying to compare. I just wanted you to see that you weren't alone in your feelings (that and I didn't want to type that much again). All those things you discribed, all those things you felt (and are still feeling) I feel too, as well as 100% of the people in the 'Just found out' thread. That is partly why I feel at least a *little* better. Knowing that I am not the only one who hurts.<p>Yeah, the throwing up part stinks. Did that for a couple of days. Then a couple more days after the last one. To this day I still have the shakes. <p>I just wanted you to know that you aren't alone.<p>Hang in there.<p>Dave

I've read your thread. No offense intended, felt, or taken. Sometimes I wish I could go to sleep or wake up without images of them in my head. How long before THAT goes away?

I do know about the "electric" feeling when your near your spouse...I forgot about it and it all came back to me about 2 days before I found out about the affair.<p>Its great that you got past the big hurdle of intimacy. I know that I cant seem to be held enough by my H....he kind of sighs...but he's also up with me in the middle of the night when I have an anxiety attack. I had a dream the other night that all three women were chasing me telling me I was stupid and that he hated me and that they were trying to kill me....it was hard...but wierder...it was harder on him....he woke up the next morning apologizing for what he did and what he brought to our marraige. Its all so confusing.<p>Replacing the thoughts with actual events is really helping alot. We are more intimate now and we have not spent a night apart since I found out. Tonight would of been the night that Affair #2 girl was coming to town and he set up a hotel room for her so they could meet. Im anxious even though there has been no contact since D-Day and the room was cancelled. Its all very frustrating.<p>It is great that you love your wife so much. Are you finding that she is baffeled by your forgiveness? My husband doesnt understand why I chose to forgive him. His family was the type to hold a grudge forever which has caused him great pain in life. He doesnt talk with either of his siblings. Anyway....he doesnt understand why I forgave him or why I want to work it out. It must be wonderful to have a spouse who is willing to work this out. <p>The frustration with her and coming home is part of her insecurity....not yours...she hasnt forgave herself yet. My husband hasnt either. He keeps himself upset because he cant or wont forgive himself. I only hold him and tell him that I love him. Its just as sad to see him beat himself up. I would of never put him through what he is doing to himself. <p>My husband changed his phonenumber on his cell and Im very happy about that. The little things...the glimmers of hope....is all I have. The ultimatums that I gave were only that he shut the doors to the relationship and give us a chance to be.....whatever we end up as...together or not....we dont need a third person in the relationship at this time....not even for therapy....one of the affairs offered us the use of her and her husbands counselors....yuck....my H thinks shes being helpful.....grrr...<p>Your comment about not looking at other women.....its wierd....I am actually looking at men almost as if Im registering their possibilities....like if I had to could I .....almost like a rating system....whether this guy would do something like H did or would he be led to it....<p>I dont want the details....I just want to know.....in the year 2002....three women in three different towns were in a sexual situation with my H in less than 2 hours of them meeting....as a man...do you feel the opportunity is available if you look for it....or do you think there are women out there that do just that...think that by sleeping with someone...that they might be able to land him as a potential spouse one day. <p>One of the affairs is married and disappeared (yeah) one has left me a message about how great my H is and I better keep hold cause she might change her mind and begin pursuing him...cause hes such a great catch...and the third is taunting him with horror stories about being unemployed....possible STD's.....felt connected.....do they think that he wouldnt do it to them too.......its terrifying that people are this promiscuous in the world today. <p>How did the flowers go?

As a man I struggle with this a lot. One of my struggles is that, in our society, if a married couple separates, EVERYONE and their dog assumes that either the MAN had the affair or that the man was abusive... and that's why the wife left. In evaluating the years of marriage prior to my wife's A, I think my FATALMOST ERROR was prioritizing my career over my family. My career has skyrocketed and I sit now on a dream; I love my work; my job; I love having my own business. But, my wife felt like she was left out and was never able to communicate that to me in a way I understood. <p>With her infertility, I think she transfers her own insecurities onto other people. It's not that she's infertile - it's that I don't want to have kids. It's not that she just can't get along with her mother - it's that my mother hates her. It's not that she just doesn't desire to educate herself - it's that I have a superiority complex about my own education, etc etc. <p>There are these other issues. I'm not sure that had I followed Dr. Harley's advice to a T that the A still would not have happened. An important thing for me is counselling for my wife to work through these things and for me to figure out how to cope without getting stuck on the bad side of things. <p>My wife has asked me several times if I don't hate her for what she has done. The honest truth is that I couldn't hate her. I can be angry and I can be hurt, but right now at least I am still committed to her utterly. The thought of my being with other women is only slightly appealing when I'm really angry. Then I remind myself of our marriage vows and that I love her. I feel dirty for even entertaining the thought. In a divorce situation, I think this would change. <p>I wish I had recorded the source of these stats, but the BS is like 100x more likely to have an affair after D-Day than whatever their normal tendency to have affair was in the first place. Knowing that, I feel it is imperative to keep my thoughts focussed on the one I love... no matter how much it hurts.<p>As for the hate and confusion, my wife still can't believe I don't hate her and it confuses her... because for 8 months she had (in part) justified her actions by telling herself I hated her or at least didn't love her. Then, one day, reality knocks on her door and for whatever reason she is overwhelmed by the consequences facing her for what she has done. Suddenly, the exact same behavior I had exhibited before looks a little different and she gets confused. <p>Plan A is all about Show me, don't tell me. I could tell my wife all day long how much I love her... and throughout our marriage I have. But, she wanted to see it. So, I began eliminating things from my life that bugged her, minor and major. I think the clincher was when I started talking about adoption several weeks before D-Day. <p>I have to be honest here, I hope my wife beats herself up over this. I may have prioritized things in my life wrong for several years, but I never prioritized another woman over her - not once in thought or action. I can justify that my career ambitions are for her, our children, our family. But, she has no justification at all. She had an affair with a married man with 3 children who's wife was her best friend. There's no rationalization there; only really really bad decisions, judgements, a world of pain, and perhaps a few moments of emotional connection and physical attraction. I can change the priorities in my life, but from the instant she crossed that line from friend to lover, she created something unchangeable and unfortunately sent a loud message as to who she really is. <p>Anyways, enough of that.

The flowers were very well recieved. Very well indeed. And she still hasn't gotten the other 5 dozen ones due sometime today. To be honest, I am baffled at my capacity to forgive. I would have thought, prior to this, that something like this would end in someone being severely hurt. Unfortunately, our world is not as black and white as I had originally thought. I spent a lot of time wondering why I loved her. <p> - So, I found my glimmers of hope.
- I set my plan. Things look pretty good right now, but I'm capping my Plan A at 6 months. At that point, if I feel that I'm the one making all the changes or that she still has feelings for the OM, I'll have to do some serious re-evaluating.
- Plan B is set as well as several other contingencies. The contingencies make me feel more secure.
- With my own house in order, I'm ready to see what we shall see.<p>Hold me tighter, squeeze me harder, and when she can tell that the heartache is there... to squeeze me till I can't breathe and tell me she loves me. It's her promise and her restitution.

The work and values are very big issues.....unfortunately...people classify you as lazy and incompetent if you dont work or worse...stupid.....so if you have the education over her, the work over her, and the ability to control your situation, unfortunately....it will all make her feel inferior....I have the opposite problem...<p>I make more money than my husband, I am the boss, I make the decisions, I have the child (previous marraige) and I am self supportive. Because of that, he feels I dont need him, nor would I want him. It is the exact opposite. I want him because he doesnt do what I do, because he graciously steps aside to a client or employee, because ofhis mannerism...these all make him more attractive to me. <p>I can respect you on the self battering part too...Like I said, I wouldnt of done near the amount of bashing that he has done to himself. He was raised around people that would hold grudges for years and manipulate him by holding stuff over his head. Its as if he thrives in that type of environment. When his mother passed away last year, he expected me to step up to the plate and do the same....he couldnt handle the fact that I wouldnt do it...no smart mouth...no manipulation...no bribery....just unconditional love. Now Im worried that he is just trying because I stepped up to the plate to work this out....now, maybe he feels that since Im the victim, the least he can do is try.....<p>Crossing the line is a biggie for me too.....I told my H that its easier to ask for forigiveness than to ask for permission. He didnt quite grasp it...but the statement is true. The boundaries that he crossed and the fact that he has opened our marraige, something I held so sacred, to the evils that have come into it...is something that only he can keep out...meaning completely no contact...ever....not even a hi.....and I dont know if he can do that....its like the two women and him were bound by this incident...almost as if they would have to get together and talk about it at least once...you know....<p>Ive never been this wishy washy...I run a business myself and I have to keep my door shut...the emotions and the decisions and daily concerns are too much....I almost cant even function. Luckily my secretary knows and is helping curb off the sharks for now.....I have to shake this feeling of inadequacy...i feel 10 times ugilier, 10 times heavier, 10 times meaner, 10 times angrier than I have ever felt in my life. Its very wierd. <p>Best of Luck...are you going over there tonight to celebrate your anniversary?

Sadly she's with her parents far away so I can't go over to celebrate. As for work, I can't concentrate worth a darn. My epilepsy is serving the function of your secretary, where everyone knew about it and knew I had been having seizures. So, at some point, I need to begin functioning again, but unless I'm dwelling on my marriage, I'm pretty much useless.

Yesterday was our 5 year anniversary. It's been a hell of a year. I knew that work was going to be a doosy right about now, so I arranged for us to take a trip together to Orlando back in April... 1 month after my WW had started giving the OM oral sex. She had such a fun time in Orlando that she jumped at the first chance to do oral sex again with him a month later. I don't understand.

Now, she's coming back tomorrow evening. She told me loved me about 20 times during the phone call. Afterwards, I collapsed on the couch crying because each time after she had brought the OM to ejaculation, she told him she loved him. <-- perfect example of why I wish I hadn't pressed for very much detail.

I couldn't stop crying and after about an hour she called back just to say hi. She could tell I was distraught and trying to hide it. I'm kind of an "emotions on my sleeve" kind of guy. I told her that I really appreciated her saying she loved me so much. That it was very reassuring. She kept pressing. Finally, I asked, "Are you sure you want to know? This WILL pass with time and I'd rather have us talk than risk you becoming angry with me."

She wanted to know. So I said exactly this, "Since D-Day, you have told me many many times that you love me. I love it. I love you. It is so reassuring to hear you say that. The thing that makes me sad is that you told him also. And I wonder what it is that you mean when YOU say "I love you."

She said she was confused during the A and that telling the OM that was yet another really bad decision in a long chain of bad decisions throughout. The fog? She said there was no question in her mind now that she loves me, that she hates him, and that they haven't talked alone for 4 weeks now.

Love, to me, has always been an expression of trust. An assumed innocence that the person you love will always cover your back, support you through hard times, and that you trust them with the "real you". I don't know quite else how to say it. You just trust that this person you love will feel THAT WAY about you according to your marital vows, or whatever pact you may have made as an expression of love. In a relationship then, "I love you" is like saying "I am utterly exposed to you and trust you will be gentle with me".

My wife's A makes me think that we are operating on different definitions of love. And, it makes me sad.

Lyxa:

Couple of pieces of advice. Firstly, try to stick to only one or two threads. It's easier for continuity purposes.

Second, I know you have been through hell - and its going to be really tough for some time to come. But in some ways, you are kinda lucky. You have a W who wants to come home and work things out. You both have a chance to fix the things that have gone wrong in your M.

Now from reading your posts, it really does look like your W has been very honest with you and is remorseful. Sometimes that "honesty" can be very painful, but at least there are no hidden secrets, and the images will fade with time.

So when your W comes home this weekend, cut her some slack. She is emotionally confused right now, and probably isn't aware of the things she is doing that might activate your triggers, like the "I love you" thing. She wants you to believe that she is sincere, but can't seem to do it any other way than to tell you that 20 times.

Keep in your plan A. Show her that she is making the right choice. I would also have a discussion with her about the triggers - like you did on the phone. Maybe tell her that you are highly sensitive to those words right now and that she should express her love some other way instead, like a hug, or saying "I adore you", something like that.

Good luck!

That's a really good idea. Thanks.

LOL @ myself and state of mind.

I can't stick to only one or two threads!

I'm so excited she's coming back... I'm all knotted up inside at the same time.

Hey there....

Hope your get together went well..Ive not wandered the site too much today or this weekend....spent all weekend with my H....we were looking at houses together....not ready yet for me....

Anyway...on a note that you mentioned earlier...like the I love you comment....they dont know how hurt you are...the WS....they think they are doing ok...then the trigger happens....Im still hurt about how careless my husband was with just having sex...he then informed me that there "might" of been a potential longterm relationship with the last one if I hadnt of found out....am I supposed to say...whew....glad I caught you first....or do I take it that he might get something out of their relatioship that I cant give him....or that he cant find in me.....what.....does it make sense?

Im dying to hear about your weekend and hope all went well...your wisdom and insight is awesome and has been greatly appreciated......let me know...

Haven't felt very wise... just trying to keep things real. But, thanks.

All Saturday, I cleaned house. I went with a steam cleaner over everything "they" may have done things on. blech. Then, for four hours, my stomach churned and I watched Comedy Central. Driving to the airport to pick her up, I felt tortured. When I saw her, I could tell she was scared too. But, I gave her a big hug and told her welcome home.

Odd note, we've both commented that it feels like she's visiting more than coming home. We got home about midnight. I had bought a bunch of things for her... food she likes, snacks she likes, shampoo and other body products she likes, and we went through the house together. Then, we talked for a long time and held each other close. We didn't talk about much. All I really said about the A was that I intended to not talk about it, but that if she ever wanted to, I would be willing to listen, not get angry, and hear her out.

It feels like we're dating, except that we're married. Remember those first dates where you were super paranoid about doing things that might turn the other person off? To be honest, it really sucks. We spent most of Sunday just sitting on the couch together talking quietly about her family, her foot (she sprained it), and other things. Towards the end of the day, she started crying and told me she was so very sorry and how could I still love her. She also told me that she was feeling suicidal... and we talked about that for a while. We planned out what she would do while I was at work today.

Today at work, I called her and she told me that she was very much wanting to call and talk with the OM's family [meaning him]. I borrowed my partner's car and went home. We sat down right across from each other and, pretending to be on the phone, I said, "Hello, this is the Martins." I then asked her what she would say. I told her that if she wanted to call them, I'd go get on the other line and just listen. I also told her how much I loved her and that nothing good can come from her calling them: OM or his wife (her "best" friend).

I mean, think about it. If the OM picks up... what then? If his wife finds out you called him, what then? If she picks up, what then? I told my wife, "With her, you'll either be accused of being a liar, or make him look like a liar. With him, he'll either try to manipulate you to corroborate whatever truth he has shared thus far with his wife or put the blame on you. I suppose there's also a chance of him trying to recapture the past. What will you do? I'm terrified that if he tells you that he loves you, that you'll say it back to him... and feel it too. You've told me hundreds of time since D-Day that you love me. During your relationship with him, you told him you loved him. I know you still love him now. What's the truth?"

I started crying; she started crying. I said, "Even if, are you going to go rushing off into his waiting arms? The reality of this is that you have no future with him and you know it. Your future is with me/with us or without either of us." I told her how proud I was of her for not calling them for two weeks now.

We talked some more and she promised she wouldn't call. Maybe tonight we'll do the No Contact letter or call. I don't know. I'm going into a phase, where I feel like, "Make a choice already! I forgave you... honestly and sincerely. You said you wanted us back together... here we are. Deal with it and move on or out."

It's about as hard as I thought it would be though and Plan A is still intact... I think in Plan A, the "A" stands for Aggravating.

Hey there...

Well it sounds like a perfect first weekend together.....I remember it well....I was afraid to leave my H side...almost like if he was out of sight...he would run to OW... We talked the whole time..I would cry, he would hold me, I would get angry, he would hold me, I would remember sweet times, he would hold me....I couldnt get enough of his touch.

I too, understand about the cleaning thing...I was blessed by none of them ever being at his place....in fear of me showing up. But I do look at things differently...like he bought some boxer shorts awhile back...is it because of one of them that they liked it....or midlife crisis....what? Why the change now?

Hopefully she seen the effort that you put into her coming home with the cleaning and the food and the gifts...I think we do for them what we would like them to do for us. I would love for my H to come home with my favorite desert or lotion or something....flowers....anything to say that he was thinking about me while he was away...unfortunately...Im doing all the buying and gift giving....why?

We decided to have no contact at all...not even a seperation letter with the OW's....I still feel like acknowledging #3 that will give her power to know that it was more than a fling. #2 hopefully will never be around again and #1 doesnt have the new number or know where he lived. Im still concerned about emails...but we went on line last night and I read him your post and others responses....it really hit home...your carefulness with words and the fact that your a man....and the emotions you showed....was kind of like guy level for him to see it from a different point of view....like my feeling werent validation enough..but yours were now a justification that I too, might feel the same way.

I cried and he said that he was truly sorry and actually had a couple of tears with me. I told him that while he might be drawn to porno sights and esex....I was drawn to support and knowledge....we talked about my responses and yours and he actually got a little jealous...wanting to know who you were....I chuckled.....you hit him between the eyes with the comment about BS being 100% more likely to have an affair after D-Day and your thoughts in that manner as well as my response....

This website is awesome and the people are great...I dont know what I would of done without them. Its so surreal anyway.....this is nice to be able to relate with other people going through the same thing...

I agree with the Get over it already.. I forgave you and move on attitude.....make a decision.....be patient...she really is baffeled that you forgave her. My H....not one to base alot off of....but in this case...maybe....said that as the WS he felt that it was almost sealing his fate to a divorce and that you cometo this conclusion in your mind that well...since my marraige is over anyway...then the spouse finds out and they forgive you...it was like all that build up for the wrong ending....they took out the factor that someone might love them unconditionally thus changing the outcome of their scenario they built up in there mind. He said that its almost like he feels like hes being set up...like Im reeling him in and showing him this world that he wants even more so now...and then WHAM...im going to pull away, and say like ...well....thats what you could of had...and then drop him like a hot potato....its amazing that we were the ones hurt...yet we have to cater to their emotional needs.....

Well....I hope your first day went well...how was it when you got home?

Sorry we are both in the exact same state of pain. My wife had the same amount of sexual contact with OM and I have asked the same detailed questions. I don't have any advice except don't ask too many questions about the past. I have been obsessed and need to stop. I have recovered deleted e-mails and whish I had not. It will not help to know all the details. They will just replay in your head preventing you from getting on with life.

Things went marginally well until several days ago when she started defending HIM and getting all poker-faced with me. I feel like I am the only one crying, the only one suffering in this. Over the past several days she has started talking more and more about a need to "protect herself".

Yesterday, we were talking and more as a joke than anything else, but also to see her response I referred to the OM as a "selfish, lusting, hairy SOB [censored]". It was in line with the topic of conversation we had been having... y'know what she said?

She said, "He's not that hairy."

At that point, it all came crashing down on me again and I realized for the first time that in spite of 3 weeks of no contact, in spite of all the agony we've been through, in spite of everything... she still has feelings for him. She still remembers him. It killed me.

I wrote her a letter stating basically that I have been denying my gut instincts since almost Day 1 of her affair... and listening to her mind games in the hope that she is trustworthy. Now my gut instincts are telling me that she still has feelings for him, is holding something back (another A perhaps? that she still has tokens from him? that she still loves him? that she hasn't been true to her no contact promise? I don't know...) and that until she:
- Changes her cell #
- Looks me in the eye and tells me she loves me
- Is willing to stop defending him
- Is willing to do things that protect us rather than just her.

... that I will be staying somewhere else.

She hasn't changed her cell phone number yet, but I came back anyways. Today is my birthday. Happy Birthday to me!

<feels like a frog stuck in a puddle of mud>

Lyxa,
Happy Birthday! Hope you do something nice for yourself today.

She probably will have feelings for him - maybe for a long time - this is something that has to die in her and will take awhile. Just because she came home and decided her future is with you doesn't mean she doesn't still have feelings for OM. Although that really sucks, its just something that is part of the end process. What has helped me is the MB article on overcoming resentment - moving forward works best when you are able to create new happy memories that replace the old bad ones. While she is in withdrawal, this may be a little difficult, but eventually this will happen.

I am really impressed that you played that telephone game with her - that shows how far you are willing to go for her - even though you might think this doesn't have an impact on her, I'm sure she will have noticed this.

Someone on this board on a different thread also talked about when WS shows anger towards the OP - what does this mean? And the conclusion everyone seemed happy with was that the sign that there are no feelings left for OP is indifference. You showed your feelings about OM by calling him names in front of her - this may just make her defensive of him, because she is defensive of herself and why she was attracted to him. So maybe you were "just testing" to see what her reaction would be - don't expect her to chime in - even if she did, it would just show she is still emotionally involved enough to feel anger towards him. You will know that she is over him when she couldn't care less what he does.

It's just going to take a lot of time. You sound to me like you are doing really well.

Hope this is helpful,
Odile

I

<small>[ March 20, 2003, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

<small>[ July 08, 2002, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Lyxa ]</small>