<small>[ July 22, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Madnav ]</small>

TMCM,

Unfortunately I dont think that you are full of crap. I think that there is a large dose of the truth to what you said. I realize that this may end up in divorce. I also know that I married her one way and she has changed and I have put high expectations on my marriage. Maybe she has not changed, this could be a dormant character in her that has finally surfaced. Any way you look at it she is testing my will and seeing how far she can push me. I am ready to snap. I am prepared to walk and have taken steps to make that transition if needed. I guess I just need to see if this horse is really dead. (kick kick)I know there is a woman out there in the cosmos that has the same expectations about marriage as I do. I just think that this one is not it.

Madnav I'm so sorry but It's good that you have your feet firmly planted on the ground on this one.

I have a couple of suggestions. The first one is to not broadcast your intentions to her unless you are absolutely, positively sure you are going carry them out no matter what comes out of her mouth. And the second one is that as much as she says 'I love you' remember that in the present situation, those are nothing but words without any real meaning because it's her actions that really say how she feels about you and the marriage.

You are so right in that there are women out there that want the same thing that you want in a marriage - I have a new one that beleives the same way I do and practices the MB principles as well -, and do not suffer from issues of self esteem that they feel need to be resolved with a series of ONS.

I hope that your wife wakes up soon to the fact that she will loose you for good because she is condeming herself to a life of pain and misery on the track she is on. And those words don't come from me but from my ex-wife herself.

TMCM,
Thanks for the words. At least there is someone out there in the world that is sane. Actually all of my friends and my wifes friends that know are on the same page as me. The W acts like she wants to work things out and starts to get her head screwed on straight, then BOOM, she pulls some stupid stunt. She is not out screwing around anymore.. I have been keeping real close tabs on her. She has been checking in with me throughout the day everyday. It is usually when I am with her that she just pushes my buttons by doing things that piss me off.

I am not trying to defend her by anymeans. I am just giving her a little bit of credit for attempting. I will watch her like a hawk to see if there is anything going on. I do think that she realises that she did something terribly wrong and will not do it again. BUT ... I think that she is not too sure if she wants to be in a marriage and she is torn between the two. The crappy thing is that I feel like I have to sit and wait for her to make a decision.

Hi Madnav, sorry to read all this, its sounds like the coffee man knows the deal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is usually when I am with her that she just pushes my buttons by doing things that piss me off.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She may push the button but you don't have to react negatively. Plan a positive response to her antics, because if you do snap, she'll try to blame her behaviour on you for snapping.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my issues with her drinking and smoking stems from my child hood and watching my mother do that same think all the time. I used to get so embarrased of my mother the way she acted when she was partying it up. I see the same actions in my W lately and am embarrased to even call her my W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, this is an unresolved childhood issue. Now, you can keep leaning on this or you can confront it. Why do you feel responsible for her (or your mother's) behaviour? You have no control over it. A wise monk (that's monk, not monkey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) that 'the behaviour of others is no reflection on us'. Its so bloody simple I thought, sheez, why didn't I think of that.

Madnav, you have no reason to feel embarassed about your mother's or your wife behaviour. It is not your behaviour and no one else will judge you on it, unless you too choose to carry on like this. The past is the past, you cannot change it, learn from it and let it go now. Challenge it when it rears its ugly head.

You wife has very deep rooted self esteem issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe she has not changed, this could be a dormant character in her that has finally surfaced. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is her coping mechanism. It comes out on special occassions when she feels she cannot cope or meet expectations. She can not deal with reality as an adult so she has switched to 'child' mentality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The W acts like she wants to work things out and starts to get her head screwed on straight, then BOOM, she pulls some stupid stunt. She is not out screwing around anymore.. I have been keeping real close tabs on her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may be because either she is putting on an act or being insincere, or it could be that she is really trying and then gets scared because she dosen't know how to do what she needs to. I'm guessing this really, but I'll give you a quick example...

About 2 weeks before I went to plan B everything was cruising along nicely with H (although the A hadn't ended), then I had a conversation with him that he would have to make changes too, and that if he couldn't he'd better tell me - this was very silly and demanding. I should not have said this in this way because it scared him and things slowly went downhill. He became the alien again.

Had I been thinking more compassionately I probably should have said that I need this, this and this from a relationship and left it at that. I think that my H dosen't know how to make the changes, so I set him up for failure. Do you see what I mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The crappy thing is that I feel like I have to sit and wait for her to make a decision.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you might be waiting a while, better find something interesting and fun to do so you don't go insane.

Look I'm no psych, and I don't know your situation, but take what you can from the above and if it helps I'll be happy. If I'm way off track, forget it.

Now, I'm off to my mung beans and camomile tea ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well... we had a good night last night. We spent a little time alone together and some time with one of her friends. We did have a nice intimate evening after we went to bed. But, in the middle of one of our moments last night I started in with the "movies" in my head. I just could not stop imagining her with those guys and that she did exactly what we were doing and that she was loving every minute of it at the time. GOD it tears me up. The worst part is that I know what the guys look like. I have talked to them prior to her A's and actually during them to (unknowingly). So it is not like it is a faceless man doing it. I see their faces and hear the voices. That is the hardest part. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> How do I get past this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I read other posts from people that are the WS and I just want to reply to them that they should rot in hell because of how they hurt their "loved" one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I know that is just my own anger talking and that these people know they screwed up and are trying to fix it.

I have started journaling my feelings hoping that it might help to get them out and keep me from going thermalnuclear on my W.

You very much have a right to be angry about this Madnav and I think you've taken a very positive step of working through it by journalling. The anger is better out than in and better out in a controlled manner than as a thermonuclear explosion/implosion - good lord!

Another thing you could try is 'thought redirection'. I just read about it as I'm tired of thinking about the future - I don't feel so hopefull at the moment and I've got to snap out of it.

The suggestion I read was to practice twice a day - count things, eg flower petals, trees, bricks.

Then whenever the negative thought comes into your head your break it by counting. I'm sure trying it.

The other thing was equal breathing (ie breathing in and out for the same number of breaths). This is great for relaxation and a whole number of other things (your immune system for example) and something I do already (in yoga).

I do sound like a hippy don't I? I'm not really you know, but hey these things do work for others and I'm willing to give anything a go.

Hope it helps. Hang in there Madnav, I know its really hard, I'm there with ya bud - at least in spirit.

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Seahorse ]</small>

Nah.. you dont sound like a hippy. My first step is that I should breathe. I think that I have been holding it for wayyyyyy to long. I think that breathing might help. I have found listening to music has helped. Right now I have been soothing myself with Pink Floyd, Tool, Nickleback, and Type O Negative. I know some of that is a little agressive, but it helps with the creative visulization. Nothing like getting lost in my mind (meditation?). Put the headphones on and crank it up. I can block out the W, dogs, phone, TV, punk kids that race up and down the street, ect... It has been good. I can act out in my mind what I would so love to do in the real world. The best thing is that there are no legal repercusions for what is going on in my head. LOL... and I can "come back" to the real world feeling better. Does that wierd? It might be.

Anywho.. thanks for the advice! I will give it a try.

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Madnav ]</small>

I'd say your doin' pretty well and creative visualisation is just another technique for the same kind of thing. See, you already had the answer!!!

Anyway, I'm off to have a relaxing spa and a port, I gotta get this anger level down a little more too you know!!

Seahorse,

Off to a spa? Very nice! Hope you have fun and find the peace that you are looking for. I could use a weekend to just escape. I just might do that. There are a couple of really nice towns up in the mountians here that are a great get away. I could leave my lying cheating whore of a wife at home and jump on my bike and head for the hills. Or I could throw the dogs in the truck and take off for the weekend. You know the more I think about it the better it sounds. I thought about it earlier, but I did not want to leave her alone because I didnt and still dont trust her. I was trying to keep control of everything. I guess I will just have to let go and see what happens.

There is a bright side lately. I do see my wife returning to me. That alien that has been inhabiting her body has left. At least for now. I can see it in her eyes. Before she had this dead look in her eyes. No sparkle. Last night I looked at her while we were at a sandwich shop and I saw the sparkle. I told her it was nice to have her back. She looked at me confused and said that she never went anywhere. I told her that she had and I did know who took her place the last several months. She said that she did not either. I think that she is making progress. I really hope so.

<small>[ July 26, 2002, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Madnav ]</small>

<small>[ July 26, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Madnav ]</small>

What's doing Madnav?

Not much going on... same as usual. I keep trying and so does the W. Unfortunatly everytime I see some progress, the alien that inhabited my W's body returns. Things get all messed up and we are back at ground zero. Her family is getting upset with her as well. We are still in counseling. She had to skip last week due to work obligations. She was able to reshedual for tonight. I just dont know if I will ever be able to trust her again.

How was the spa?

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Madnav ]</small>

Hi Madnav, the spa was excellent. Scheduled a breakfast ride for Sunday (Horseriding - bacon and eggs and damper! - Horseriding). Can't wait.

Be patient with your wife, there will be many ups and downs and she will fall back into alien behaviour and come out of it again. Be patient, but draw your boundaries.

The trust is probably something we all have to learn. She has to earn it, you have to give it. When your good at it let me know how you did it!!

Just an update:

Still in counseling. We had our first session together. It went ok. It seemed like it was focused on me. Like I was the problem here. Nothing mentioned about wht she did it or what she is feeling now. Just that I am having issues coping. I still have my up and down days. Today was a major down one. All I can think about is how she destroyed something so precious to me out of pure selfishness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I still have the "movies" playing in my head. I also cant have sex with her with out picturing her with the other men. It usually hits me right in the middle of it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Then what do I do? Roll over all pissed? Or do I just keep going and not say anything? I have been doing the latter.

Half the time I dont even know if this is all worth it. I could just walk away and start over. She is trying. I know that and she is saying she is sorry on almost a daily basis. I see that she now realizes what she did and wants to make thing right. I just dont know if I can forgive her.

Oh.. well... I keep plugging away.

Mad

Hi Mad, have you spoken to your counsellor about this problem ie the sex, etc? I think you should before it really affects "things" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (sorry to get so personal)

I'm glad your in counselling together, its such a great start!

SH

I have talked to him about it, but not with her present. She does not know I feel this way. I think that I my bring it up next week.

We went out of town this last weekend. We had a great time. We stayed at her employers "cabin" in the mountians with some others. All in all the weekend was a very loving one between us. I did have a moment on Fri night. I had my limit in alchohol and was starting to think about her A's. I had to excuse myself and go to bed before I said something in front of everybody that I could not take back.

On another note. I found out Sat morning that she thinks she might be pregnant. The first think that went through my head was "is is mine?" I did not voice this to her until today. I told her that is what I thought to be honest with her. All weekend I ran dates through my head and compared them to her A's timeline. I know she has had a mensteral cycle sence her A's. And I know( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ) that I am the only person she has been with sence her A's. At least that is what she tells me. But if it is true that she is pregnant, it kind of ruins the excitement for me having that doubt over my head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

What should be an extremely exciting time for me is not really turning out to be that way.

Mad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hi Mad, I wish I could say congratulations, but I'm not sure its what you would want to hear or if its appropriate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know bud, I know. I think I would be very confused too. Have you found out for sure yet?

It is sad that something so precious has to be tainted by this whole situation.

will your wife stop drinking while she is pregnant. Sorry I know its none of my business, but I can't help but ask, I've done a lot of genetic/health studies and this does kind of worry me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did have a moment on Fri night. I had my limit in alchohol and was starting to think about her A's. I had to excuse myself and go to bed before I said something in front of everybody that I could not take back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's great self control. I found (Seahorse+Alcohol) + (WH+Alcohol) was not a good equation to work with.

Mad you are doing well, God will not give you more than you can handle.

Well.. after 2 home tests. We have come to the conclusion that she is not pregnant. I actually feel relief. It is not that I do not want kids. Because I do very much. I just now know that if she does get pregnant that there will not be the doubt.

To answer your question about the alcohol. Yes.. she would stop drinking. That I know.

We did get in to a conversation last weekend about why I don't wear my wedding ring. I had to explain to her that the ring symbolizes the promise that she made to me on the day we got married. She has sence broken that promise and the ring is a reminder of that. She was not real happy to hear me tell her that, but she understood. I told her that if we make it through all this crap then I would like to renew our vows to each other. I would also like to take my ring and melt it down and have a new one made from it.The old promise (ring) has been broken, but we can make a new promise out of and old one.

one day at a time

Mad

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We did get in to a conversation last weekend about why I don't wear my wedding ring. I had to explain to her that the ring symbolizes the promise that she made to me on the day we got married. She has sence broken that promise and the ring is a reminder of that. She was not real happy to hear me tell her that, but she understood. I told her that if we make it through all this crap then I would like to renew our vows to each other. I would also like to take my ring and melt it down and have a new one made from it.The old promise (ring) has been broken, but we can make a new promise out of and old one.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent statement Madnav. Right now you are married only in legal terms but are far from being so spiritually. When she had her A's she broke her M vows and thus ended the M(spiritually speaking). It will take a serious new comittment on her part to love you (above all others) and protect the M from her self destructive side. A new ring will be the symbol of said new comittment to you.