I discovered on 5-31-02 after several weeks of growing suspicions that my wife was having an affair. I confronted her on that evening and her response was, "I have been unhappy for several years, I love you and care about you, but I'm not in love with you".

She then proceeded to still deny that anything was really going on. "We're just friends". Due to the fact that I had hacked into her email account and found out that she had a seperate account that they would write back and forth with, I knew that it was more than just friends. The letters never mentioned a sexual relationship, but went as far as talking about hugging and kissing and laying together. She had only at that point in our conversation admitted to holding hands, and after more prodding said that sometimes they hugged. (I did not reveal where I had got my information, which was the first thing she wanted to know.) After admitting to hugging she came out and said that they had not had sex.

She works with this guy. She then mentioned that his wife was pregnant. I have met this guy in the past and I know that he is (or at least was). My wife told me several months ago, before any of this had started, that one of his wife's parents had been diagnosed with terminal cancer. At that time both of them were supposed to take a leave of absence from their jobs and move in with the parents to help care for them during this final stage of their life. He did not take a leave (she's a school teacher and would be out of work now anyway) and I believe that the wife may have moved in to help the parents and he now has this free time to do other things, LIKE MY WIFE! I don't know if things have progressed to that point or not. My wife has never been very big on sex (we have intercourse less than 20 times per year, and would probably be closer to 10 times if it was completely up to her).

My wife told me that night that she has not been happy for several years and is convinced that I haven't been happy either. I will admit that I have been in a slump for the past 5-6 yrs. My income at my previous job had been going backward over the last 3-4 years there. When I changed companies, it increased slightly for a while but the company caused me so much stress that I know that I must have been a bear to live with. I left that job a year ago and became an independent contractor in sales. I haven't been able to generate a consistent paycheck since doing so, and when I left that job my wife had to step up and become the primary breadwinner for the last yr. A position that I know she hates being in. Before this she had stayed home with our children almost full time, working about 20 hrs per week and only bringing home about 10% of what I did for the past 13 years. The fact that I feel so lousy that my income has not been able to adequately provide for our family was my main focus on why I wasn't happy, not the marriage.

After confronting her that night, I asked her about seeing a counselor to try to work this our. She is not at all interested in going that route. About 4-5 more days went by and the things that had lead me to believe there was an affair in the first place continued. The late nights, the instant messaging until 3am. And would still lie to me about it when I asked. At that point I hadn't slept more than 6 hours in that 4-5 day stretch. I then sat down with her again and told her that I was moving out so that we would be seperated. She was fine with this and said that she never wanted to just run right out and get a divorce. We are sharing custody of the kids and sometimes I feel like that just gives her more time to go and do with him as she pleases.

My main question her tonight is this. Did I move out too soon?

When I moved out I did so for my mental health and also, I knew that if I stayed and kept seeing daily what was going on then I would jeapordize whatever chance existed of us being able to work through this eventually. My gut instinct tells me that this will work out in the long run. I sat down with her the day that I moved out and asked her (I am seeing a counselor to work on my self esteem issues as well as helping me deal with my feelings) if I should be working on getting over this relationship permanently or what. Her respose was "I really don't know", "I may wake up one morning and realize what a big mistake that this all was". Since the time that I moved out we have been in pretty regular contact. There have been a few times that she has invited me to come along and do small things, errands, picking out wallpaper, etc, where I believe I could have easily been left behind and rather than take that option, she has continued to bring me along.

When I ask "Did I move out too soon?", I hadn't read any of Dr. Harley's advice and the concept of Plan A and Plan B. I just discovered this site a few days ago. I have been trying to make depostits into her emotional bank since I moved out. Should I have stayed and taken this approach, or should I suggest moving back in and work this plan from there? My instincts had me going in the direction of his plan A and Plan B theories and when I found them, really hit home to me as being a real game plan that I can refer to and play by and gave me more hope. I have on order Love Busters and How to Survive an Affair.

I did find out for sure that she is still seeing him. She is on vacation all week and was supposed to keep the kids with her all week. Well she told me a few days ago that she was going to have to go to an out of town (1hr) meeting this eve and would have to leave the boys with me. I went by our house to drop off some flowers to surprise her with when she came back from her meeting. When I got to the house, her car was gone but his car was parked in our driveway. I still left the flowers and resisted the temptation to leave a note letting her know that I would not be her babysitter while she went out on dates. I will be spending tomorrow afternoon and evening with her and the kids going to do some things for the 4th at her invite. I imagine she will be rather uncomfortable knowing that I found his car at our house.

Another question that I have is this, assuming I can keep up with plan A for a while, do I act and behave with her as though he doesnt' exist. I have gotten into the habit of kissing her (just quickly) every time I see her. And when I spend a lot of time with her I kiss her when I arrive and again when I leave. I am anticipating holding her hand when the oppurtunity presents itself tomorrow. Something we used to do quite a lot and haven't for a while now.

Hope this wasn't too long for the first time.

Any suggestions on how to rid my mind of the crap that runs through it when I wake up every hour or two during the night and can't go back to sleep.

Thanks in advance

Welcome Biscayne...

There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

It has a lot of quick links to many of the most important MB sites...
Click here ==> General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)

About your post...

Make plans as quickly as possible...
MOVE BACK HOME!
MOVE BACK HOME!
MOVE BACK HOME!
MOVE BACK HOME!
MOVE BACK HOME!
MOVE BACK HOME!
and if you missed it...
MOVE BACK HOME!

...and one more thing...
MOVE BACK HOME!

I hope you got it.

Plan A's effectiveness is decreased immeasurably by you NOT living at home.

There is less of a chance that your WS can see your growth (with or without counseling)!

If you show that you're willing to roll over and die...
...by not fighting for your marriage FROM HOME...
...your actions will not be matching your proclaimed goal... marriage recovery!

Your W's EN of you being the 'father' to your own children... has a profound impact on your W AND and impacts on your children.

If you don't have the books yet...
...use all the links (from this post)...
...the amount of 'reading material' here is phenominal!

Do start on a Plan A...
Check out the post Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.).

How is your faith life...
...consider a jump start on it...ASAP!

God bless.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim / NSR

Thank you NSR,

I have been feeling like I should move back in and your response tells me that, that feeling was correct. It was my choice to move out in the first place, she did not actually ask me to move out, though she did tell me that she didn't want us to be together any more.

How hard do I push the issue of moving back into our house if she resists? I think that she probably will. Or do I just move back in one day while she's at work and deal with the reaction when she gets home, explaining the I have every intention of doing my best to make changes in myself and to make this marriage work, and that I feel that this is the best scenario for our children for the long haul?

Again, I ask the question, if I move back in and it is obvious that she is continuing to see this guy, and I'm sure it will be. Do I continue to act as though nothing is going on with him and do my best to fill her emotional needs as prescribed in Plan A? Or do I set limits with her as to what I will put up with? She has now resorted to telling me that she has to go to a work meeting and then I find out that it was really a reason to get out and be with him. I know that I should be avoiding as much confrontation as possible so I assume that I just act as though nothing is going on and do my best to meet my end of things.

Do I tell her anything to let her know what direction I am heading with this other than, I am there to work towards repairing the relationship even if she doesn't want to participate right now?

I am considering getting a part time job overnights to help with our income until my sales position either starts producing a regular income or until I find something else that can fill that need on a regular basis. If I do this it still gives her the freedom to come and go as she pleases during the late night hours after she gets off of work, because on the nights that she works my parents will keep the boys and she won't have anything to come home to. Does this pose a bigger problem due to the fact that even though I moved back in there is still limited contact although more than now? Or could it be a positive sign that I am making a sincere effort to make a real financial contribution to our debt load.

Thanks again for the response and I look forward to hearing from anyone with some direction or that has been through this experience.

{{{Biscayne }}},

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...though she did tell me that she didn't want us to be together any more. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...this is soooooo typical for a WS that is in the 'fog'. It self-justification to continue on with the affair... and other immoral behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How hard do I push the issue of moving back into our house if she resists? I think that she probably will.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...don't push... state your intentions lovingly and kindly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or do I just move back in one day while she's at work and deal with the reaction when she gets home</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...Nope... Plan a day (weekday or weekend)... make sure she knows it is non-negotiable...(I assume you don't have a restraining order against you)... and unless she files some major complaint with the police... she can NOT lock/keep you out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... explaining the(that) I have every intention of doing my best to make changes in myself and to make this marriage work, and that I feel that this is the best scenario for our children for the long haul?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...this part is an excellent step! Balancing husbandhood and fatherhood is a challenge at anytime... but very hard during a WW's A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I ask the question, if I move back in and it is obvious that she is continuing to see this guy, and I'm sure it will be. Do I continue to act as though nothing is going on with him and do my best to fill her emotional needs as prescribed in Plan A? Or do I set limits with her as to what I will put up with? She has now resort</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...whoaaaaa... Let me set the concept straight on Plan A... You DON'T "act as though nothing is going on with him"... You DO "do my best to fill her emotional needs". You must be honest with your feelings and you can say to her that continued contact with OM is hurtful to you... just don't say it every 5 minutes... to stuff it down her throat! Honesty to self is important. Don't tell yourself a lie... and in time she may stop her own lies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I know that I should be avoiding as much confrontation as possible so I assume that I just act as though nothing is going on and do my best to meet my end of things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...again avoiding 'hurtful' confrontation is the right thing... "actting" as though nothing is going on... is wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I tell her anything to let her know what direction I am heading with this other than, I am there to work towards repairing the relationship even if she doesn't want to participate right now?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...yes... you can... you can tell her you would appreciate her help... you would appreciate keeping things as normal as possible with the kids... and if she doesn't cooperate... it won't change your approach of becoming the best possible husband/father/human!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am considering getting a part time job overnights...to make a real financial contribution to our debt load.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">..financial necessities the way they are may dictate what your decision is here. You cannot control your W's actions.... You have to believe me on this. Plan A is NOT to control your W!... Plan A is become a better husband/father/human!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

The right move would have been for you to kick her out of the house. Of course, you should move back into your home. What you should do is notify the OM's wife and also the employer. If she wants to be a lowlife treat her as one. She will get the message that her behaviour is unacceptable.

A word of caution...
...I know tomaz that you are well intentioned...
...but...

...going to the employer and wife of OM...
...will (in most cases) be counter-productive.

It's what I did...
...before I found MB...
...and all it did was make the situation 100% worse.

Plan A...
...means focus on you... and your marriage.
...not the OM
...not the OM's W
...not the OM's employer!

By focusing on you and your W...
...your W will see that you have the focus on the right things... the important things.

Be that said...
...morally...
...it is acceptable to inform the OM's W...
...not out of vindictiveness... but out of compassion and respect and love.
...ideally... if it can be told to her.. through another party or through anonymous means... it would be best.

Informing the OM's employer...
...will do nothing but draw her close to the OM...
...with the perverse idea that she needs to protect him.

FOCUS ON YOU!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

Hey: i'm in a similar situation...except HE moved out to be with the OW. Now, you need to try and stay with plan A..it's hard. Keep the chin up. Share a tear or two, You will feel better

I agree in part with Tomaz. She is the one having the affair so she should be the one to leave if she is unhappy. I think it shows what a slime the OM is that he is having an affair while his wife is pregnant and taking care of a dying parent. Actually it also says a great deal about your wife that she would be doing this while the OM's wife is in this situation.
I would certainly at the very least contact the OM's wife. My guess is that he would drop your wife very quickly. There is a saying that no consequences to her behavior equals no motivation to change. By telling the OM's wife it will make it much more difficult to carry on the affair. The fact that your wife and the OM could do this to his pregnant wife who is taking care of of a dying parent indicates that they have no moral compass. I would look quite seriously whether you should really want want you wish for. In short contact the OM's wife.
I wish you luck.

Thank you to all of the responses so far.

Jim I appreciate your addressing each one of my numerous questions. I plan on waiting a few more days to compose myself and thouroughly think out and rehearse what it is that I will tell her about my moving back in.

We did spend this afternoon, evening together with the boys, took them out of town to do something a little different for the 4th. I can't say that it was a "happy" time for us, with the emotions strained on both ends, however there wasn't anything negative, and she did give me a hug and kiss at the end of the night.

As far as some of the advice to tell OM's employer and wife:

I have to say that I agree with Jim on this one, and again, without having read "Surviving an Affair" yet, that a lot of what I'm going on is gut instinct here. Something that I believe is God's way of talking to you, or pointing you in the right direction. If I was to let her employer know, they would probably both get fired. Her first. She is actually one of OM's mgrs. If that happened then she would probably pack up and leave the state with our boys. Her family lives about 1800 miles away and that is the first place she wants to run when things get too tough. As a matter of fact she told me in the beginning that she doesn't want to leave here (knowing that I would immediately be ready for that) and that the only reason she would is if she couldn't make it financially and / or if things got ugly. She told me the first night that the only thing that has kept her from letting me know sooner that she wanted out is the fear of the repurcussions on our boys, both by me and my family. She really can sometimes make someone out to be the bad guy in her mind, a label she never wants for herself.

As far as telling the wife:

At this point I'm not really sure that anything my W has told me about their situation is really accurate. I do know that the day after I confronted her, she sent him an email telling him that she was more worried about what would happen to him than she was about herself. Which goes along with what Jim said about protecting him and pulling closer to him to do so. She has actually been trying to get this guy into a promotable situation for a year or so now. The reason that I know this is that she used to talk to me about him and this situation. One of my clues that something was going on with him was that she had stopped talking about him. The other things that she mentioned in that email was "don't worry, he (me) didn't say anything about telling work or your wife". I have been very tempted to figure out a way to let his wife know about this and I see it two ways, 1. It would come back to haunt me if W ever found out that it was me to tell OM's W, She would consider that unforgivable. 2. I believe that, that is one of those things that God will take care of in due time. I don't mean a vengeful God, I just am a believer that everything happens for a reason. I believe that every lesson in life will present itself to you until you learn the lesson. I have quite a few to learn myself through all of this, and I'm trying to keep those positive learning experiences.

A little more history on what I know helped bring us to this point:

W has found on too many occasions in the past that I have been looking a things on the internet that I really had no business looking at. She has confronted me about these things in the past and although I apologize for it, it hasn't kept me from going back from time to time and doing it again and getting caught. I am not the least bit proud of this. She has also found at one time that I had looked through one of those matchmaking services on the internet. Again in all honesty, I never had any intentions of every persuing anyone in any of these situations. However I am now more aware of how hurtful each one of those times must have been to her and how destructive it was to the relationship.

About 5 years ago I became good friends with a younger woman that managed an account that I called on with my previous job. I had known her for about 7-8 yrs and had taken an interest in helping talk her out of some very bad relationships, abusive both emotionaly and physically, and trying to give her hope that things did not always have to be like that. She also was very down about her job and the way things were going there that added to her misery and I tried to encourage her to get out and find something better. Well she finally ended the bad relationship and got together with a much nicer guy and actually started to believe that maybe marriage wasn't such bad idea and also entertained the thought of having children in the future. Both, things that she had always said would never happen. I never had any relationship outside of the account with her and certainly never anything even remotely physical, I don't think that I ever even touched this woman. I will tell you that if I hadn't been married that I would have been interested in persuing something more, but, again, I was married so that was never a consideration. When this woman was leaving her job, I wanted to take her to lunch to thank her for things that she did to help me out at that account and to wish her the best for the future, since I wouldn't be seing her anymore. She had helped me win some nice sales contests, one of which let me take my wife to Hawaii for 10 days. Well I asked my wife if she would mind if I did this, again, knowing that since I had no intention of doing anything other than lunch, I really didn't think that this would be a big problem. W HIT THE ROOF! Yes, it was a big problem with her, no matter how much I explained that nothing ever did or would go on with this woman. So I abandoned that approach and instead bought this woman a book and wrote her a letter thanking her and wishing her the best, more words of encouragement. Big mistake, W found the book and letter and still to this day quotes things from the letter to me when things are going bad. As a matter of fact the night of D-day when I talked to her I again reassured her, swearing on our children's lives that nothing had ever happened. She blew this off and left me still believing that as far as she's concerned that either something did happen, or what she found was enough to say that this had already crossed the line too far.

Another issue that exists and may be carrying more weight in this than I have given credit to. My wife had a child of her own at the age of 16 and raised him by herself until we got married. He never had any contact at all with his father. W and I started dating when he was 5 and got married when he was 8. He was staying with her mother two summers later,(age 10) 1800 miles away since the oppurtunity was there for him to do that, a place that he really loved and since we were working full time had he stayed here with us he would have been in daycare all summer. While he was up there, we got a call in the middle of the night to tell her that he was missing. When they finally found him, (about 3am) they found that he had been shot and half buried in the woods. He died shortly after arriving at the hospital. I never thought that she would ever even live through something like that. Her son's was the first funeral that she had ever been to in her life. A friend had purposely shot him and drug him into the woods and covered him up. My W went through living hell for several months. We buried him in the town where her family lives, due to the fact that if given the choice that, that is exactly where he would have wanted to have been.

The next several months were very tough for us. When she came back home she became very withdrawn from me and started involving herself with things outside the home as much as possible. I did my best to be there for her and would have done anything to help, but she didn't want help. One night after one of her volleyball games, the team always went out for pizza and beer and I usually came along. Well we showed up at a place that was having a wet t-shirt contest and next thing I know a couple of the judges had her talked into entering and they would be sure that she won. I wouldn't hear of it. I was flabergasted that she was even considering it. My wife is and has always been very conservative. She finally stormed out and took off for home, I followed and when I got home I tried to get through to her that she needed help in dealing with her son's death. She didn't want help, she didn't want me around or trying to help, or anyone else either. She continued to stay away from the house quite a bit with a good girlfriend of hers. Staying out late pretty often. I really thought that we wouldn't last. She finally came home one night and crawled into bed and came to me crying and very emotional, hugging on me and holding me and telling me that she was so sorry that she had put me through this and had been like this. It was as though she finally had the emotional breakthrough that she needed. Afterward she finally got some good help through a support group and kept up with that for quite a while (yrs) and had dealt with it as well as could be expected. Our children are now passing through the same age as her son when he died. He died at 10, our oldest just turned 11 and the younger will turn 10 next month. I know that going through this time period has also contributed to her emotional state. One of the things that I got raked over the coals for was the fact that I haven't sent her flowers for the anniversary of his death in several years. It is not because I dont' think or care about it. It's just that when things are really bothering my W she pulls away and clams up and doesn't want to talk about things. Every year several family and friends bombard her with well wishes that I'm afraid that if I do also that I might be the one that breaks the camel's back. I know that she still holds onto a lot of memories,and I expect her to. She mentioned that our oldest son is wearing the same size clothes that her son was that year that he was killed and that our youngest has an unusual physical characteristic that was the same as her sons.

Sorry to go on so long again. I felt that if I was asking for clear advice then I should paint a clear picture of what was and is going on.

Thank you again to everyone that has and will take the time to contribute.

About your work relationship... (with the female co-worker)...
...if your W disaaproves...
...abide by her wishes.
Make sure you learn about... The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)!

You can't change history...
...but actions showing your lifelong commitment couldn't hurt.

If your W still fears your Internet porn/dating/etc...
make all of your Internet access accounts (and passwords) available to her! You can even go as far as suggesting she use "monitoring" software...
...she needs to feel safe.

About her son (who died)...
...this can take quite a bit of time to overcome.
She obviously feels her son "should not be forgotten"...
...maybe set up a small 'prayer table' with memorial items (picture, candle...) and don't hide from it... but take some time (weekly perhaps) and pray in his memory...
...this obviously is a faith dependent practice...
...but it could be a really healing experience.

You and your family are in my prayers.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

Me again.

I was actually falling asleep last night/this morning trying to finish up my post, so I am including here some things that I may have forgotten last night. By the way, I slept pretty good last night. Don't know if that can be contributed to the fact that I now plan on moving back in, or having a pretty good time w/ the W and kids yesterday or having spent some time letting some things out last night. Whatever the reason, I appreciate any night where my mind will actually let me sleep.

As far as the friendship that I had with this other woman years ago. She had been in contact with me by way of email during the last 6 months to let me know that she was finally getting married to this good guy that she had met and started dating back when I did have contact with her. She wanted to invite me to the wedding. At the time I gave her my address for the invitation and told her to go ahead and send it and I would deal with the possible repurcussions from my wife at the time. I mean, how much of a relationship could I have actually had with this woman if she wanted to have me at her wedding. Well, when I began having suspicions about my wife and I confronted her the first time, the next day W responded with this email to me denying anything and generally going back at me defending her actions, and she also brought up the situation with this woman again, quoting from the letter that she had found years ago. So I contacted this other woman and told her not to send the invitation and that I would not be able to attend. She was upset that I would not be there and couldn't understand. She wanted me to be there in case she got cold feet at the last minute, I would be the person to talk her down and get her to get down that aisle. She even told me that I was mentioned in her wedding program. I guess I bring this up again to re-emphasize that this relationship was really platonic. I do realize now that as platonic as I may have/do view it as, if my W was/is hurt by it, then it is wrong. One of those things that I'm sure I will learn about as I learn more from Dr. Harley's books, primarily the "enthusiastic agreement" portion.

In working with the counselor that I have been seeing, he told me last week that he thinks that I am giving this OM too much weight in the big picture of things. I had told him that the previous week I had stopped by her place of employment to swap vehicles and she got the chance to see our boys for a few minutes. She hadn't seen them in a few days. She invited us to stay and visit for a while and I immediately declined since I could see this OM from across the room. My mind immediately began playing out different scenarios in regards to my confronting him in some way. Even going over and just being friendly with him would probably have made him crap his pants. I know him well enough to know that he is not all that bold of a person, and would be very intimidated by my confronting him in any way, shape or form. I also had told my counselor that day that I had found this guys address and had it with me that day and had every intention of driving by his house and just kind of assessing the whole situation there. He of course asked me what I intended to do with whatever I found with that situation, and I really didn't have an answer. The counselor wondered why I would not have stayed to visit with her that day and therefore said that he thinks that, again, I am giving this OM too much weight in this picture.

Part of me thinks that things were rough enough in our relationship that if it hadn't been this OM then something would have snapped sooner or later. I just think that he gave her the strength, be it real or not, to take this path in dealing with things.

Well I'm probably about to exhaust whatever space I'm allowed on here so I'll get going for now.

Thanks again to every one for their support.

I just thought of a couple of more questions. When I get and start reading the book "Surviving an Affair", is this something that I should keep to myself and not let her know that I am actually using this as a guide to work through things? The reason I ask is that I would think that if she reads through any of the book, that she may see it as my way of trying to manipulate her or the situation. I guess I may also have a fear that she may learn about Plan A and set in her mind that this is just a waiting game on her part and that she can keep on doing whatever it is that she is doing and after an apropriate amount of time that I will resort to plan B and she will be able to get back to the life that she wants to lead. I guess all of these scenarios that I am playing out in my mind may just be my own insecurities talking. I have a tendency to picture the worst case scenario at times. Something that I am working with the counselor on.

Along these same lines, do I keep up with seeking the counsel that this site offers with her there. For instance, if I installed monitoring software on the computer, I wouldn't necessarily want her reading some of the questions or feelings that I have posted here.

Me again...

About your concerns...

Should your W know about Plan A!
...it won't hurt...
...but only if you see Plan A as a lifetime plan.

All too often the view of Plan A is that you do it until you're in recovery...
...WRONG!!!

Plan A is what you do your entire life...
...the only time it ceases...
...is when the behavior of a WS reaches unreasonable levels...
...when the 'absolute' evil of their actions... require that "your peace" return back to you... when they reject marriage recovery blatantly... "call it quits"...
...then and only then... is Plan B a course of action.

The concept that Plan A... is a "temporary plan"...
...IS FALSE!
...if your spouse (upon learning about MB) comes to this false premiss... she needs to be corrected!... lovingly and with compassion.

-----------

About software monitoring...
...again... this may be something where you have to bite the bullet...
1... use the MB telephone counseling... alone
2... when you're on the computer... always... write/post expressing your spouse is probably going to view your posts... and lovingly... honestly express what you can (leaving all LBs behind...) Hard... you bet...
...but what a 'proof' of love to your spouse.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

hi biscayne-
You are really in good hands with Jim/NSR, but I just had to jump in about one thing, from personal experience...
I don't know how to do quotes, but as far as the sending flowers thing, I would encourage you to do whatever you can to offer her support; even if she gets 100 bouqets, she will be looking to see if one is from you. She needs something outright to show that you care.Write a note to her for his birthday, for the anniv. of his death, for the day your son is the exact same age as he was at his death....you get the idea. Yes, she will probably cry, and maybe your card will be what makes her break down into tears...but most likely, if she is like me, she is keeping things to herself but is suffering in silence, and you can help her feel less alone. I know men don't like to see women cry, much less think they made her cry, but she feels sad whether she cries or not, and it is important that she knows you are thinking of her feelings and that you love her and hurt with her and that she can cry on your shoulder if she wants to. Even if she doesn't acknowledge your cards or comments, please know that it matters, and most likely she will feel better for your support, not worse.
Sorry I went on so long...you probably get the idea. Good luck, Biscayne.

Thank you, Shaz87. You're 100% right and I plan on acknowledging everything that I have to that has to do with her son. I was a fool for not doing so before.

Jim,

I went ahead and sat down with her today. I told her that I would be moving back in and went through all of the things that we discussed here previously. It was not met the way that I had hoped. She said that she would have to think about it. She said that she is happy right now with the way things are.

Part of me thinks that the reason she is happy is that she doesn't have to sneak around behind my back since I'm not there and feel guilty when she returns home and I'm there. I know that every betrayed spouse probably has said this, but, my wife is really the last person in the world that I would have ever expected of having done this. I think that the reason that she doesn't want me there is that she needs to continue with what she is doing and doesn't want me there to have to feel like she has to answer to. I told her that I am not coming home to make things worse, and that I would not want to drive her out of the house. She said that it probably would. Which would mean to me that she would want to pack up and go to her family's, which as I said before is 1800 miles away.

My wife has had a real tendency throughout her life to remove herself from the situation completely whenever it becomes too much for her to bear. Growing up her parents divorced when she was the same age our boys are now. Her dad stayed in the town that we live in now with some of her sibblings and her mom took her and the other siblings to live back in the town that I keep refering to. During the rest of her growing up, she would go back and forth from mom to dad's and vice versa as she wanted or needed to. Again, when things got unbearable in one place, pack up and move back to the other.

Four years ago she packed up and took the boys to live with her family for an undetermined amount of time. She told me that if she stayed here that summer that we would get further behind financially and that she wanted the boys to be able to spend time in that town. She would work full time while she was there and be able to make more money than she could here. I told her that I didn't want her to go at that time and she said that she was going anyway. When I asked for how long or when she would be back, she said that she didn't know. After about 3-4 months (we would talk once a week so that I could talk with the boys) she called at about 4am one morning to talk, thinking that I would already be up getting ready for work. The conversation was pretty light and toward the end I mentioned that, a school that we had been trying to get our youngest into had called and had a spot for him that they would only hold for a short time. Again, I got the "I don't know" when I questioned when she would be coming back. She contacted me a couple of days later to tell me that I could come and visit for a few days and then we would all drive back home, to our place here.

She has now said that I should have taken that as a wake up call to make changes in myself for the better, and that she had let me know that this would be what my life would be like if things didn't change. I truly don't remember that ever being stated at that time. I know that I was very depressed while she was gone and did't know what to think.

She took the boys away again the next summer and this time stated that she would be back in about 6-8 wks. She wanted them to have another summer there, and since she would be stepping up into management when she came back that this would be the last chance for her to do this. When I came to visit at the end of that time frame and to help drive back, I was met with what I felt like was a very cold shoulder. She had spent the time working again that summer along with her neice who was very close with the son that she had lost. When I got there, they had been sharing a bed all summer and I was given a cot to sleep on over on the other side of the room. She pretty much acted like she didn't really want me around the whole week. Didn't have much to do with me which really ticked me off. By the end of the week I was ready to fly back and tell her to just drive herself back when she felt like it. The driving trip back had the same tone to it. When we got back home I told her how I felt and she told me that it was really my problem, and that she was very close with her neice and that others had told them that they seemed to shut eveyone else out and that she wasn't about to change any of that.

To give you a little more insight into her feelings. About 3 wks after our seperation was our anniversary which I had gotten her to agree to get together for. In preparation I had put together a journal with some questions about what her memories were about some of the happy times from our past. I left the journal over at the house one evening before she got home with a note asking her to fill in what she could so that we could have something to talk about the night we went out. Well, my idea didn't produce the desired results. She only answered about 4-5 of the 13 questions and I will now quote a couple of things that she put into the journal.

The question was: What are your emotional needs? (My counselor had asked me that question and I felt stumped and dumbfounded that I couldn't answer right off the top of my head, so I decided to include it in this journal)

Her response:
I think emotional needs change all the time. It depends on what is going on in your or my life at the time.
Sometimes I jusd need time to be alone. Sometimes I need to be able to cry without there being a reason. Different times of the year bring different needs. Different days of the year. You used to send me flowers on my son's anniversary. Then you stopped. Last year you forgot it all together. You thought it was a different day. I don't want them now. I should never have thad to say anything. That is probably the worst day of the year for me and you no longer are even aware of it.
Sorry I went off the subject. Anyways, I think they are always changing. Just being aware.
Our oldest son is wearing the same size that my son was. Did you even know that? He is probably the same height.
So I don't think there is an answer for this one.

I gave her some room at the end to ask me any questions and here's the response that I got.

OK,
All day today I was feeling sick to my stomach thinking of answering some of these.
Being where we are right now this was very hard, because I don't like to talk about some of them. Some are hurtful feelings that come up. Then I thought, I don't have to do this. It's my choice. Why do something that I don't have to do, that I feel uncomfortable with.
I know you think that it is a wonderful idea. But right now I can't. I know I have hurt you enough. But on my side I shouldn't have to do something that makes me feel this way. I know you think all the problems are from you. But I too have things that I have to deal with. I have been somewhere else for quite a while mentally. So all this will take time.

I am now at a loss again as to how to proceed. If she comes back and tells me that she doesn't want me to move back in, is it then time for me to resort to plan B? Do I continue to let her dictate where this is going? I know that if we are able to overcome all of this that it will be a long road to recovery. We need to address our communication problems throughout the years. When I have asked her to see a counselor on her own to talk about some better ways to deal with problems, she has refused. She thinks that the way she deals with things is just her way and that's that. She bottles things up and won't talk with anyone about them. When she feels like she needs to get some things out she writes them down and then throws them away and that is her way of letting things out.

Again, I've gone on too long so I will take a break for now and check back later.

Thank you

Ok...

...it is clear the affair is on!...

Hardball time...

...if she says she will leave...
...you need to let her know...
...in honesty and with gentleness (ala Plan A)... it will have to be without the kids!

Start looking today:
Lawyer search
Martindale-Hubbell Lawyer Search!
If you need to protect yourself legally (and/or financially)... I usually make the recommendation of finding a good attorney. A good place to start off is at the Martindale-Hubbell Lawyer Search site. Do a search within your county... look for only "family law" specialists(>80% in divorce/custody/etc.)... make sure they do a lot of "family law committee work"... if they know the judges all the better... You can normally find a few that will give initial counseling free of charge.
USLaw.com (an alternative search site)

You don't have to threaten her now...
...but start on your homework... i.e. find and get an initial session with an attorney.

----------

This action of contacting a lawyer...
...by no means implies you move to Plan B!

Work out mentally a long effort (3 - 6 - 9 -12 months or more)... of Plan A!
Even if she decides to fight you on this... Plan A!

She doesn't dictate to you...
...it is eually your house...
...they are equally your children...
...take a stand for your marriage!

Don't force counseling on her...
...start on counseling by yourself if she won't go...

If your W likes to write...
...a good long term goal would be... to work toward a World Wide Marriage Encounter weekend.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

Wow. The first part of your response really through me for a loop.

I was already convinced that the affair was on. I had mentioned that I had found his car at our home the night before and her car was gone. That had really told me all that I needed to know.

I guess it would behoove me to have my ducks in a row in case of the worst case scenario.

quote:
Work out mentally a long effort (3 - 6 - 9 -12 months or more)... of Plan A!
Even if she decides to fight you on this... Plan A!

Are you telling me not to abandon Plan A even if she won't let me move back in the house? Or do I let her know as loving as possible that I am moving back in anyway. And then if she starts to tell me that she will move away then let her know that it will be without our boys this time. I know that this is playing hardball, but doesn't that start to get into using the children as pawns. IE: If you want to keep seeing them then you have to stay here.

How do you suggest that I work out a Plan A if I don't move back in the house. Do I go along with her each time that she decides to have me? Such as inviting me to join her and the boys for something. I guess I'm really confused by how to approach this Plan A if I'm not living there. If I am not living there and she wants to drop off the boys one night so that she can go out, do I just keep going along to avoid confrontation and keep from making emotional withdrawls. Or do I put a stop to it by using whatever excuse necessary to avoid watching the boys to keep it from being so easy to use me to help her continue on seeing him at whatever time is convenient for her. Make her find some alternative means of a babysitter.

Plan A mentions not making any selfish demands. Would that include the urge that I have to touch her, hold her hand, give her a kiss hello and goodbye, etc. when I do see her?

I did pick up that part time job today that I had mentioned. I told her about it today when I told her about my moving back in. The hours that this job will entail will mean that my parents will have to watch the boys sometimes. On the nights when her shift would let her out somewhere between 9 & 11pm, should I insist that she come over and get the boys from here so that they can spend the night in their own beds. That would keep her from being able to come and go as much as she pleased on different nights.

You had mentioned something in a previous post about letting the OM's W know what is going on. Have you ever seen this work out well? If I did decide to go in that direction, how do you suggest that I go about this. And would it change anything if I found out that they were already seperated?

Getting tired so I'll call it a night.

Thanks so much again, I appreciate your continuing to respond to my lengthy posts.

Hey,

Am I crazy to think that if I sent her some of the information from this site that it would help her see things more clearly?

By her own admission, she has "been somewhere else mentally, for a while". If I sent her some of the information on the way a WS's mind is working right now, quoting from the information here on this site, could you see any harm coming from that? Or is she in too much of a fog for that to even get through? Would this kind of step on my part be viewed as confrontational?

Something that has been in the back of my mind and I just woke up thinking about.

I've actually been praying for God to help her through this also. I know this whole thing has her mind in quite a bit of turmoil right now also.

Thanks in advance, to anyone and everyone who may have tried something like this or has an opinion on this approach.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess it would behoove me to have my ducks in a row in case of the worst case scenario.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...yes!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you telling me not to abandon Plan A even if she won't let me move back in the house?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...yes!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or do I let her know as loving as possible that I am moving back in anyway.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...yes!! yes!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And then if she starts to tell me that she will move away then let her know that it will be without our boys this time</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...yes!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...but doesn't that start to get into using the children as pawns</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...NO! What you are doing for the kids to 'protecting' them... from their mother's inability to learn them morality... and how to face up to the hardships and struggles of life/marriage!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...how to approach this Plan A if I'm not living there...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...by meeting the EN she has to the best of your ability... and no LBs! That doesn't mean lay down and die...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...avoid watching the boys...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...NO!... do watch the boys... ...unfortunately for her... she will see after quite some time that in the issue of custody(ultimate worse case)... it is to your advantage!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan A mentions not making any selfish demands. Would that include the urge that I have to touch her, hold her hand, give her a kiss hello and goodbye, etc. when I do see her?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...do what she allows you to do... and if she pushes you away... don't pout... don't throw a tyrade... show patience... and say to her kindly "if you'd like to talk about anything... I'll be happy to listen... without judgment".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... that my parents will have to watch the boys sometimes...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...excellent... this is part of getting your ducks in a row.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You had mentioned something in a previous post about letting the OM's W know what is going on. Have you ever seen this work out well? If I did decide to go in that direction, how do you suggest that I go about this. And would it change anything if I found out that they were already seperated?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...the telling of the OM's W has had mixed reactions... (usually negative if your W finds out it was you!)... but the issue of your moral obligation (if you think you have one here) is what should drive your choice. A caution here... telling the OM's W may drive them apart... and bring the OM closer (in his needs) to your W!

The holiday weekend is almost over...
...during holidays the respnses here are very light...
...so starting on Monday, you may want to start a new thread... (make the 'subject' interesting)... and I'm sure you'll get more responses than just from me.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR