Bad, bad, day. Yesterday I told WW that I was moving back into our house in a very loving manner and that I wanted her to see the changes that I am going through to be a better person, husband, father. Her response was that she would have to think about it. I went over to the house to do some chores and help out with some painting that she had started doing since I moved out 1 month ago, which occured 1 week after D-day.

She stayed away from me all day and I was hoping that this might be a good sign, that maybe she was debating as to wether it was going to be me or him.

She finally sat down with me late this afternoon and let me know that she absolutely did not want me moving back in. It was not done in a very pleasent tone at all. It left no room for negotiation. She was sorry that she had allowed us to spend any time together over the last few weeks, that it must have given me false hopes. She has been unhappy for several years, she should have never come back from her families when she took off with our boys three years ago. She claims that I haven't changed a bit since that time. She doesn't want to waste another three years with me thinking that things might change and waste another three years of her life.

Am I crazy thinking that there might still be some kind of chance. I look back over the few weeks before D-day and there were actually some very good days there that she even persued a physical relationship during that time, which isn't all that common for her. I walked out of there resolving with her that I would back off completely. I asked her that if there is still any feeling left for me in her heart that she won't completely close the door on that.

I have resolved to move on to plan B or on to "Plan move on with my life" if I can keep getting out of bed each day. At this point that will be one of several hard things to do. Do I send this plan B letter at this point that I keep hearing about, and if so where do I find more guidelines about it.

I am afraid at this point of continuing to come here in fear that it may give me false hopes. I feel that as painful as it is that I should put any thoughts of us getting back together completely out of my mind.

Any one who can give anything back here, I'd sure appreciate it. I've got to pray for strength over and over. I want to pray for the pain to go away and I've read that what I should be praying for the strength to make it through this rather for relief of the pain. Any suggestions on what my next step to put her and our relationship out of my mind??

Thanks to one and all. God Bless

Me again,

Within an hour of my leaving there today feeling totally devastated, WW calls to ask me something and then invites me to meet her and our boys at the movies in half an hour. (I had actually discussed us all going to the movies earlier in the afternoon, before the conversation in the post above happened) Of course like a fool, I met them at the movies.

What do I read into something like this?? Was this just a pity call to relieve some of her own feelings of guilt. I told her today that she doesn't have any idea the pain that I am in. She said that yes she does, and I disagreed with the response of "you haven't been on the rejected side of a 19yr relationship", maybe not the best thing to say but I had to get some of this off of my chest.

I keep thinking that she seems to be following the script in Dr. Harley's anatomy of an affair.

Should I be avoiding all possible contact with her from here on out or what??

I'm getting myself to church tomorrow. I need something more than words right now.

Go to church...
...and learn to pray with fervant passion...
...it will help!

Please... please... put thoughts of moving to Plan B on the back.. back... back... burner.

Plan A...
Plan A...
Plan A...
...for as long as you can!

She says she hasn't seen changes in you over the last three years...
well....
...you haven't learned the MB concepts during those 3 years!
...you been here for such a short time...
...you've got to get it straight in your mind.

It took me 2 months to really understand Plan A...
...and a few more months... to really apply it correctly!

NOW...
...even of your marriage were to fail...
...it doesn't mean giving up your learning about Plan A...
...because if you don't learn about...
...you'll miss the relationship building with your children too!

As you go through the learning process...
...there will be ebbs and flows...
...and times you want to give-up...
...DON'T GIVE UP!

About your W's guilt...
...unquestionably, a good Plan A will result in quilt for the WS!
...it happens everytime the affair is continuing!

...don't let her guilt... hurt you...
...it's her guilt... she will learn from it...
...it's needed... for her...
...don't take away her guilt!

Do enjoy the time you spend with your W and the kids...
...and she should see the joy in your heart...
...when you spend time with them.

Any flowers for your W yet?
Chocolates?
Love notes?... sentimental ornaments?... anything?
Taking your W and kids to church?

Have you really got an understanding of Plan A?

Praying for you and your family.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

PS: Again, after this long holiday weekend... others will start responding to your posts as well... I promise!

Please take heed of NSR...

Don't give up... Give it to God...

I spent the first 6 months of plan A during 'active' affair... next 3-4 months in intermittant contact affair...

My H recently re-dedicated himself to the Lord... we were baptized on Father's Day and he is once again telling me he loves me.

READ... READ... READ... all you can on this website... the stories here... the people here sustained me... helped me through some of the darkest times... including last year in July when my H 'left.'

Really take a deep look at YOU... what you brought to your marriage table... what NEEDS to change... it is that HONEST look at yourself and then taking the steps to DO IT... that I see enable the most marriages to heal...

I know it doesn't seem fair that YOU who has NOT had the affair has to start the changes... but if you end up w/ a restored marriage... a relationship that is EVEN BETTER... will it really matter? It is called the 'butterfly effect' because it is said that the wings of a butterfly fluttering can effect a change in the weather many degrees away... Your changes can be the catalyst to many, many more...

Good luck to you...

Cali

Thanks again Jim and to others who have posted. The following is an email that she sent to me last night. I'd like your input on this, and I'll ask a few more questions at the bottom.

Titled: sorry

Hey,
I am sorry about today. I felt bad that you left so
hurt and how things ended. That is why I called to see
if you wanted to go to the movies with us. I hate to
be this way. And do not like to hurt you at all. But I
know I have no way of not doing that. I know I have
already hurt you so much. I try not to say things so
it won't be so bad for you.
I do know how bad you hurt and know how you stomach
feels. Not for the same reason. I went through 2 years
of not being able to keep things in my stomach and not
being able to sleep. If you remember how thin I got
when my son died. I lost someone that I loved more than
life itself.And it is someone that i can never see
again.Never touch again. Never see smile again.Never
laugh with again. So when you say I could not possibly
know how you feel you are so wrong. It may be under
different cercumstances but I do know what it is like
to loose someone that you love.
I don't mind you helping me out. But when it gives you
false hope that is not fair of me. I can't amswer all
of your questions because sometimes I don't know that
answers.And if I say things when I have not thought
about it.It may come out wrong or I may get angry and
I don't like me like that.
I do not blame you at all for everything. I made
choices myself. If I were one to talk more and say
things more maybe I could have prevented alot of
stuff. But I do not like confrontation. And I to am to
blame. You need to stop beating yourself up so much
and just be angry at me. You are a very good person at
times. You treat me very good at times. But you know
as well as I do that those times have been far and few
lately.
Not that you need to know any of this... As far as
OM goes he is not up for discussion with us. I never
told you I was going for a meeting the other day you just
figured that so I let you think it so not to hurt you.
I will not loose him as a friend because of us. I only
went with him because I want to do something and
even thought of volleyball. He mentioned playing
frisbee and invited me to go and watch and see if it
would be something I would be interested in. They have
a ladies league that plays. So that is why I went to
off with him. I met some of the girls that would
like me to play with them. I told them because of my
schedule that I was not sure. They do have a league
around here. If I were trying to hide it from you or
if I were worried about it I would not have let him
park here. But since it was really nothing I did not
care.I saw you pull up before I left and it was my
decision to let him park here. I didn't thank you for
the flowers. Thank you.. But I also did not want you
to feel more hurt and wish you wouldn't have done it.
I haven't gotten this many flowers from you for over 3
years. or more. Not to make you feel bad. But it kind
of bothers me that you think that giving them to me
now will help us.
I don't know what else to say. I am sorry that we
can't do things together because it hurts you. But I
can't be the one causing you pain all the time either.
I thought about it after you left. If you didn't want
to go you could say no. I just felt bad for making you
feel worse. Please stop beating yourself up so much.
There were 2 in this relationship and I am the one who
pushed it to where it is now. Not you. Both of our
actions over the years has caused this. It is not just
one thing. Not just one time. It would be easy to fix
then. But this is years of things. All different.
Like I said I am sorry for hurting you so much today.
If you want to come over and help me finish putting
the doors up and corner things tomorrow that is fine.
Show me how to work the mower. I have to go with a co-worker
to go shopping for the company picnic that is Monday
for prizes and things. I will probably do that in the
morning. If you want to come over then and work and
stay with the boys that is fine. I will let you know
what time I am leaving. She is suppose to call me in
the morning. So if you feel up to it let me know.. if
not I will understand. Thanks again for your help and
I am sorry for being so mean today. Me

She has mentioned taking over everything at our home, cutting the grass, etc. She has never done this and I do worry about her wearing herself out doing too much. I could keep a key to just the shed where I keep the mower and keep going over to do that each week. Although the temptation would be to bring along the boys when I have them at times and let them go in the house and then I would end up in the house. Do I still do little things like this? I guess these things could be considered deposits into her EB.

You saw what she mentioned about flowers. I went over one night while she was at work and hung about 4 dozen roses individually from the ceiling all over the house. I also left a song playing on the cd player, over and over. You may have heard it, one of the lines in the song that is stated several times, goes, "I'm falling even more in love with you".

I guess you're right Jim, I don't understand Plan A, when I receive the book I'll have to read it more. I find some of this sight a little overwhelming, it's great that there is so much information, but I keep getting pulled in every which direction with all of the links in the middle of things. When I say I don't understand plan A, I guess I'm afraid of continuing to hold out hope for the next 3,6,12,24 months or however long. And again there's a part of me that says that if, NO, when and as I change this time it will be different than in the past. And if she does see those changes in me, maybe there will be hope for the future. I feel like I need the counselor to help me work on getting past that all consuming feeling of having to have her back so bad.

I'm considering us filing bankruptcy. Our debt is something that has been hanging over our heads for several years. I just hate the long term affects. It would take at least 4 years to pay it off working with a credit counseling agency. I almost feel like going ahead with that would help wipe the slate clean, and give us a chance for a fresher start overall. Right now I have been still paying the bills that we can. However with her's being the only steady income, it is still tight and she has still gone out and spent money that just isn't there. She did say yesterday that I could show her what is going on with the bills and she would take that part over also. I feel like if we split up things in that area, then I won't have to feel like the bad guy who has to tell her that she has spent too much, or that there isn't any money left for the next week or so all the time.

She did tell me yesterday, after I questioned her about why she didn't want anyone to know originally, that she didn't care if anyone at her place of employment knows that we are split up. I know all of the questions and stuff from her fellow employees will bother her. Along that lines am I out of line asking her to keep wearing her wedding and engagement rings for the time being? I know that a few times over the past month I have thought that I didn't see them on her hand and it tore me up until I finally did. I never actually saw her with out them on.

I am going to write her a short note in a few minutes letting her know that I can't come over first thing this morning because I'm going to go to church, something that we havent' ever done on a regular basis. I will come over later to help finish things up.

One of the things that I will address in my letter is how she doesn't understand my hurt right now. Even though she says she does understand the hurt involved with losing someone, I feel like it is a completely different level going on here on my part. I am being rejected by someone that I love so much. And as all of this is going on and she is pulling further away and pushing me away, it hurts even more. I'm probably out of line here, but I think that it would be easier if she had died. Probably a selfish thought, and, no, I'm not thinking of doing her in.

I am going to go and write a short note to her now, and will be waiting until later today if not this evening, to write her back a long note about how I still feel and the permanent changes that I am making in my life. I am waiting to write that one until I hear back a little more from you folks here. I think I may even put it on paper rather than this somtimes all too impersonal email.

Thanks again. God Bless

Another quick add on.

Cali, I just read a little of your story and it gives me hope. If you or anyone else could direct me to a forum with more hope I'd appreciate it. Being a newbie, and of course feeling like I'm the only one who feels like this, I have a hard time reading some of the other posts in this section. So full of despair.

I don't know if I've mentioned this yet or not. It may seem a little ironic now, but, a few weeks, or maybe even a month or so before D-day, I had recently turned back to God a little more so than in years. I had been praying feverantly for things to change in my life overall. I was begging for direction, mainly with my employment, but really overall. I can remember actually asking God to really give me a black and white answer. I needed a 2x4 upside the head. I am not good about hearing little hints or inuendos. I've thought several times that even as painful as this is, that this is the guidance that I was praying for. I know that we don't grow during the good times, we do our real growing during times of adversity.

Thanks again. God Bless

Had to share this quickly. God really does have a sense of humor.

I was trying to log into my email acct. and I've changed the password so many times that I kept getting it wrong. So I went into the password recovery section and they sent me a new temporary password. Well part of the password that they sent me was the OM's name.

OK, God, I'm getting the black and white now. Ease up a little now, would you!

...Ok...

...your W is deep in the 'fog'!

About her not knowing how you're hurt...
...be cautious... careful... and kind...
...the death of a young child for the mother... has to be one of the most trumatic events in life.
I don't mean to mitigate your pain...
...I too know your pain.

She still has some good emotions towards you...
...that a good thing...
...and why you should not be near Plan B!
...stay the Plan A course!

Still...
Pick the day... to move in.
If you won't... let me... July 13th... 9:00AM... OK!

You can give the longest song and dance...
...but do what's right!

You can't go wrong in doing what's right!
You what makes you feel good (like what your W has writtten)... cna lead you down the path to destruction.

Give the good example!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

Jim,

I understand what you're saying about me moving back in, and maybe this is part of the song and dance talking but I strongly feel due to the nature of our talk when she told me no, that this is not the right move right now. I know that you have a lot more experience here than I do right now, I'm just basing my decision on what I know of my wife. One of the things that she told me yesterday is that when I told her that I was moving back in, was that it almost made her go on down and fill out divorce papers that day. It made her sick to her stomach both days thinking about it. I'm sure that is due to the guilt.

I feel in retrospect that I had erased any positive memories of the last few weeks. She had actually made the move the night before (4th of July) to give me a hug and a kiss on the cheek before I left that night.

Maybe I'm repeating myself from some earlier posts, but here's where I'm coming from right now with my decision not to move back in right now. Back when my wife and I were dating she broke up with me for about 6 wks. During that time she started dating my best friend. I clung and pleaded for the first couple of weeks and was continually pushed further and further away. When I finally backed off and was kind to her but didn't try to push the relationship, and just went out and focused and worked on improving me. It was kind of difficult because we worked together. But after about 6 wks she had found out that I had gone out with some female friends that I had before we had met. Shortly after that she came back to me, like within a few days. Explaining that here she was sitting in her room looking around at anything that had meaning to her and that it was all because of, or from me. What I considered to be her emotional breakthrough at that time. I have actually re-established my friendship with that friend of mine and have been talking with him on a daily basis about this situation and though I never in the past asked either him or her what exactly went on, I recently proposed the question to him as to what the conditions were between the two of them when she came back to me, and he let me know that it was just kind of a real overnight thing. That one minute they were dating and the next she was back with me.

One thing that her mother told me about W. (I talked to her once in the beginning about this situation.) Is that W is fickle with her decisions sometimes. Today she says she wants a divorce, tomorrow she wants to get back together.

After her son died she really pushed me away for quite a while, months, the more I tried to be there for her and probe with questions as to how she was, how she was feeling, could I do anything to help, the more she pushed away. Finally one night after I was asleep, she came home from another one of her late nights out and came to bed, coming to me, crying, hugging me, kissing me and thanking me for staying with her through all of this. Another emotional breakthrough.

I realize that this is steps beyond those incidents in the past, but I think that if I push too much too soon that she will rebel in the worst way. If she does something like that there's a part of her that I think would not come back to me because of feeling too much guilt. I actually feel like if I moved back in there that she would purposely pursue things with this OM more fervantly than things are going now, either conciously or subconciously to drive me further away. Maybe I'm in denial, but I still believe that this A may still in the EA stage.

As I was thinking about things today, a thought crossed my mind and I may be over generalizing here, but is the basic concept of Plan A; kill them with kindness? Let your kindness wear down their defenses?

I have been thinking of things to try to fill her EB and I came up with something for the anniversary of her son's death, coming up in about a month that I think will evoke some rather strong emotions from her. I am thinking of having a picture of her son put together with a picture of our two boys so that it looks as though they all posed together. I just hope that it doesn't backfire into her thinking that I am just trying to play her.

A question for you. One of the statements that she made a couple of weeks ago to me was that the boys are one of the only things that I have going for me. She can't stand not seeing them every day. My question is this, some weeks with her job she may not get to see them for 2-3-even 4 days at a time. During those times, should I take them to visit her, and therefore maybe gain some emotional points. Or do I just keep them with me and her not being able to see them will give her a picture in her mind that this will be her life if she continues to persue divorce? One of the things that she told me to do yesterday was stop mentioning the boys and there welfare throughout this.

I've put a response letter to her "sorry" letter for a day or two. I know you said to be careful when addressing her feelings with her son that died. One of the things that I had considered putting in the letter back to her was this: Imagine if your son was still alive and he came to you after a period of conflict and told you that he didn't want you to be his mother any more. And then you also found out that he had found another woman and wanted her to be his mother instead. You wouldn't stop persuing him until you were somehow able to win him back.
I'm afraid that may backfire on me though.

Have a long day tomorrow. Hopefully I can get some sleep tonight. I need to stop obsessing over this thing 24 hrs a day.

Thanks for hanging in there with me and my longwinded letters.

The senerio you present at the end of your last...
...is a whopper of a LB...
(Imagine if your son was still alive... )
...don't do it!

It's much worse than 'moving back in'!
Extremely judgmental... and playing on psychological fears... that could set her off in very bad directions!

And as far moving back in goes...
...you'll need to get your ducks in order...
...(legally... and emotionally set for Plan A)...
...and I... (this is just my opinion)...
...would still move back in.

Yes...
...it can be deemed a LB...
...but it can also get you out of suspended animation!

The longer the affair continues...
...with you having to do a 'long distance Plan A'...
...the harder it will ever get to move back...
...and custody of the kids will surely go her way...
...(with them picking up a new step-father)!

Get your ducks together!

Seeing her with the kids...
...when she's working...
...is an excellent idea!
...(Don't get over enthused about the idea...
...she may shoot it down...
...and then, abide by it!)

But the moving back home...
...well you know my opinion!

The idea of the picture with the three kids together...
...to me sounds great...
...but... with the emotional stability on this VERY sensitive issue for her...
...could easily backfire...
...not because its not a good idea...
...but because her psyche on this issue is just so volatile!

Prayers...

(...how did church go today?)

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

Jim,

Church was OK. I went to a different church than I ever have before. I was raised in the Methodist Church as a matter of fact went every Sunday to church and then Sunday School, and back in the evenings for youth group from the ages of 10 through 17, at our local church. I went to a non-denominational church today and it has a different format and I just wasn't overly comfortable. I wasn't actually overly comfortable going to church today after such a long absence anyway. I may go on back to my regular church from the past next week. Maybe the familiarity will make me more comfortable. I don't feel like I got very much out of it today.

Talking with my friend yesterday I made the comment that it bothers me that I haven't been able to really break down and have a really good long cry over this whole thing. He seemed to think that if I spent 10 minutes thinking about why, that it would have been about 9 minutes too long. Part of me really wants to be able to have that emotional release. And when I think about it for too long, I rationalize that in my mind the marriage is not over and that to actually come to that point would be me mourning the loss.

I'm sure you know the night times are the worst. Is it love busting when I am feeling the most emotional about this, that I sit down and write her a long letter? Continually expressing my love and emotions for her. How do I deal with the long lonely nights. That's actually part of the reason why I got this overnight job. I want to wear myself down physically so that I can actually sleep when I get the time to do so. And how do I stop from obsessing about this every waking moment? I feel like the more I keep thinking about getting back together with her the more I stay depressed. Sorry, I still can't consider the moving back in.

You mentioned how it would help with the overall custody issue. She has told me from the very beginning that she doesn't want me to ever have to be an "every other weekend father". She wants this to be a shared custody situation, where neither one of us acutally has to pay the other one any thing. The only thing that has kept her from packing up and moving to the state where her family is, is she doesn't want to do that to me or the boys. She told me from the beginning that the only way she would do that, is if the whole situation became really nasty. From what went on with us the other day regarding me moving back in, I think that move would actually push her to that point. An let me ask a question. There may be no legal experts here, but,.....Even if I was able to get something to stop her from leaving the state with our boys, in the long run would I be willing to have her arrested for doing so, or attempting to do so. I've seen good guys throw thousands of dollars at attourney after attourney, with out ever getting custody, or even a shared plan into place like I have now.

Doesn't Dr. Harley state that if I'm able to hold out hope for a long enough time that this affair of hers will eventually die a natural death? I of course don't know how long that may be. Something tells me that eventually something will happen where his wife gets wind of this and that will put a pretty quick stop. And when that happens, her emotional blanket that she has been using will be gone and she will eventually start looking back toward me as that stable part of her life that has been missing. In talking with another good friend over this, that knows us both very well, she seems to think that part of this is somewhat of a midlife crisis for WW. That things haven't been going well financially for several years, she turned 40 last year, she and I haven't had a "fun" relationship for a long time, and this is all somewhat of a temporary escape from reality. If I am able to stay strong and stable through this, that she will eventually crave that stability and normalcy in her life again. I don't mean "eventually" being years down the road.

One of the hurtful comments that WW made to me the other day is how for the past year I have sat in that "damn chair" and watched tv and haven't made any real money at all. When she would try to get us to go out and do something for fun as a family, I would constantly come back with the "we don't have enough money" statement. I have come to realize that this past year, she has really lost a lot of respect for me. I feel like concentrating on getting my financial life back on track, will score a lot of points with her. I know that one of the things that women crave and need is a sense of security, and that money does help a lot with that feeling. No, I'm not trying to buy her back, just get back to being an actual provider for her and the boys.

You didn't say anything about my impression of Plan A in my previous post. Is it somewhat of a "kill them with kindness" approach to this whole thing?

I don't know if I mentioned this before or not. I have been considering much more so the last few days, filing bankruptcy to eliminate that dark cloud over this whole thing. 95% of what we owe right now is on credit cards. The majority of that came from investing $5-7 thousand a year, over about 7 yrs into a failed attempt to get a network marketing business going. I insisted that we stick with it, even after the first couple of yrs when it was apparent that we weren't making the money. I was actually the one that couldn't bring myself to making the time commitment to working the business also. At the time I was working about 65-70 hrs a week at my "regular" job. She had talked to me during that time about us needing to put a stop to it, and I kept coming back saying that I felt that this was the only way to have the dream life that we had talked about for yrs even before that business. During that whole time frame, she was the one paying the bills each month, and would get very stressed out over that and actually had told me on several occasions that she felt like she was drowning over this. Her stomach was tied up in knots about this and kept her from being able to sleep a lot of the time. We've talked with a credit counselor about this and it would take at least 4-5 yrs at about $800-$1000 a month for us to work through this. I think that if we went that route, it would just be a dark cloud over us that would continue to taint everything we did. If we got rid of it all, I think that it would really ease some of that pressure that is lurking in the background. I know bankruptcy can be it's own dark cloud, but it seems like an easier one to deal with right now.

I need to get back to bed and get some sleep.

Thank you, and God Bless us everyone.

Plan A...
...isn't killing your spouse with kindness...
...it's meeting her needs
...it's being honest
...it's spending time with your spouse
...it's eliminating as many LBs as possible!
...it's learning the basics of negotiation!

I don't know enough about bankruptcy...
...you may want to put up a post on the GQII forum!

About moving back home...
...yes it can (and will) introduce some stress into her life...
...by the mear fact the quilt will build up!
...it's always your decision...
...but you know my point of view!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

PS: OK everyone else...
...please feel free to chime in here...
...two-way conversations are fine...
...but we want varied opinions every now and then!

Well Jim, wonderful words of wisdom so far. Biscayne, heed Jims message on moving back in. When my wife moved to Dallas and I was in Houston, I had to relocate so that she could SEE my Plan A. I had to Plan A my A$$ off EVEN when the OM moved into a house 2 doors down.

I had to do the best Plan A while in that house. She would leave 15 times a day when she got home from work and walk down to the OM's house. It was the hardest thing I'd ever done, but I did it. She had her children right there... and they saw all that was happening. I finally decided to protect ME and move back to Houston when she moved out 'on her own' and OM was over at her house Christmas morning. I came home to continue my plan A of ME, and protect the boys from seeing any more. 7 months later, I am now ready for Plan B. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=013877 Please read this if your thinking about going to Plan B at this point. Come on over to GQII and post there, the migration will be more beneficial for you and Jim will surely assist you in GQII also.

As for me please feel free to post directly to me or contact me if you need anything.

Hi Biscayne-
I can understand your confusion about Plan A...I am sorta new, and it took me awhile to understand it, and now I am working on it, but not seeing any results yet...my H is deep in the fog, and I have so much "making up" to do for my years of LBing....
I can't do links but I know Jim could do a link about Plan A, 'cos his was the first response to my first posting and he gave me lots of great info. (Thanks Jim! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )
But keep 2 things in mind re Plan A...
1-You have to do it long enough for her to believe that you have *truly* changed! If you haven't bought her flowers in three years, don't expect her to be thrilled that you finally do now.
2-You have to *truly* change!
This is what is meant when people say Plan A is for you, not your W-look at yourself, be truthful, and address your own issues. You are not "acting" better...you have to *become* better, and the goal of this is not just to win back your W, but to be the person you should be...
for yourself...
for your sons...
for your W if you can save your M...
or, if not, so that if you do move on, you will be a good spouse to anyone you might get involved with in the future.
You are not just behaving this way til she comes back. You are changing yourself.
Moreover, you will be able to say, regardless of the outcome, that you really did all you could.
That leads to when to Plan B...you seem a little concerned about that...Plan B comes at the end of a good, concerted Plan A (which should have a goal; a year, 6 mos, etc)...before you have "bankrupted" yourself emotionally, but long enough that your W can see that you are not just "trying" but that you have really changed and that she and you could have something good. The Plan B is supposed to be a natural conclusion to a spouse who will not return...
To add my $0.02i agree with Jim that you should avoid like the plague any comparison of your feelings to hers at the loss of her son...even if you feel that way she will react so badly that you will be damaging your M, not repairing it.
As the BS, it seems like I spend much of my life biting my tongue, but as Dr Harley says, you can be right and divorced! Always keep in mind your goal... it is worth it in the long run...
Sorry if I preached at you, just trying to share what I am learning....there are much wiser voices than mine and I hope they will jump in...

Good luck, Biscayne. There are lots of us up at night, lonely, worried, hopeful and hopeless all at once ...

shaz87,

Thanks for the input. Some good words of wisdom that I have to concentrate on.

I guess one of my fears, among many, is that this program will keep my hopes of our marriage coming back together and there's always the chance that it won't. I guess WW's statements from the "fog" are what create those doubts in my mind. That and my own insecurities.

Just received my copy of "Surviving an Affair" yesterday so hopefully I'll be able to have something to look at in the wee hours of the morning when sleep won't come, besides this site.

Thank you and God Bless.

Biscayne-

Thought I'd jump in here and offer you my 2-bits worth of advice.

From what I have read about your situation, there are issues besides the A that need to be dealt with first before any kind of recovery can begin. I haven't read all your posts, so I apologize in advance if I am out of line or completely miss something.

Has your W really dealt with the death of her S? I cant imagine how this feels, its got to be the worst thing a parent can go through. I suspect that she is still hurting from this and needs some support on this issue, I'm guessing the guilt of the A has brought a lot of emotions back to the surface. What have you done in the past to help her with this? Maybe this is something you can focus on right now. The financial problems you are facing are also a major roadblock to recovery. Really look into this and make some hard decisions on what to do. Bankruptcy isn't fun, I went through it myself, but it isn't the end of the world either if handled properly. I know that financial matters have caused a lot of problems for me and W in the past and are a major factor in the break-up of a lot of marriages.

Also, separating is the worst thing a couple can due during times of marital strife. When you are apart, the incentive to work on the real issues is no longer there, kinda an out-of sight/out-of mind thing. It also makes it very difficult for the WS to recognize your Plan A efforts since there is no consistent contact. My WW had me removed from the house (using a restraining order) in January and I know it has greatly affected our chances of recovery. If the 2 of you can work out some kind of agreement to get you back in the house, do it.

You need to lay off all discussions about the A, OM, the M and your feelings about all of this. These are all major LB's, especially so soon after DDay. Its hard to do, but you need to focus on your ultimate goals here, the restoration of the M. There will be plenty of time to discuss this stuff later on. Don't abandon hope, its way too early. Spend as much time as you can reading HNHN's and SAA to get yourself a solid Plan A in place. Start a journal and write down anything you want, your thoughts, your ideas, what you did that seemed to work and what you did that didn't work. Also make a list of things you think are LB's and things you think are LB$ deposits. Doing this will allow yourself to look back and see where you are at and how far you have come.

I don't think the M is over, nor is WW ready to give up, but until WW makes that decisions to work on the M, you gotta let things go for now and really get into a solid Plan A. Remember that Plan A is all about improving yourself, its not about 'winning' WW back.

Take care.

loveherstill,

Thanks for the input. As much as I would like to move back in, she won't let that happen. I feel like if I pushed that issue any further it would be a major LB. Not that there's a lot of love right now. I know that part of the reason that she doesn't want me there, maybe the main reason, is so that she won't have to feel guilty about coming home to a house with me when she has been out with him. One of the comments that she has made is that our boys is one of the only things that I have going for me. We are sharing custody, and she sometimes will have to go 2,3,4 days without seeing them. The selfish part of me says, "fine, go that long, maybe it'll clear some of that fog that you're in", the part that says to work Plan A, says that on those long stretches, take the boys by to visit a little. The hours with her job are what dictate what days she isn't able to see them.

As far as dealing with the death of her son goes. She was very resistant to dealing with his death with professional help for months afterward. She finally found a support group that really helped. Used to go every month. Hasn't been for years. I think that our boys going through the same age as her son when he died has brought back some buried feelings. However when I suggest counseling of any sort right now it is met with complete resistance. The anniversary of her son's death is coming up in about 3-4 wks and I will definitely be sending flowers this year and I am working on having an old school portrait of her son when he was this age, blended together with our two sons, so that they will look like they all posed in the same picture. Probably will evoke some strong emotions, but I don't see it coming across as negative.

Thanks again and God Bless.

B-

If you feel that right now pushing for you to move back in is not a good idea, then maybe its best to leave it be for now. I agree that the guilt thing is probably the major motivator in keeping you at arms length. Guess that can be used as a way to gage her involvement with OM, the more she is involved with him, the further she is going to keep you away from her. My WW used a restraining order to get me out of the way because I kept catching her and OM together, at first she claimed it was because I had made some threats against her, but later on she admitted the main reason was so I wouldn't catch them together and also she couldn't handle having me around when she was doing so much damage to our M. things have settled down a lot since then and we spend quite a bit of time together, not really being married, but it's a place to start.

Still, I firmly believe that separation makes it that much more difficult (not impossible though) to have your Plan A efforts acknowledged and to get closer towards recovery. For now, keep doing a very consistent, very solid Plan A and by all means, avoid those LB's at all costs. Its early in the game and the way you act now will have a big impact on what happens later on. If you can handle it, try and be around her as much as possible, but make sure you are not pushing your presence on her. Your gonna have to start real slow and work from there, a full scale assault just wont work.

As far as the upcoming anniversary, not much I can offer, that's unknown territory for me. But, given everything else that is going on, be very careful, remember the adage 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'. What may be seen as thoughtful by you may be taken completely different by WS. Someone else here (I believe it may be WAT) has a similar experience, his W had an A with one of the pallbearers at their sons funeral. You may want to put out an APB on the GQII boards and see who replies.

Take care, buckle up because this is going to be one heckuva ride!