Or I should say I am a cheater.<P>JL & S married when they were in high school; I was in college & we belonged to the same drama group & we used to hang out in their home. One Sunday 2 friends & I invited them to the beach but he had to work, so S came with us. When we returned we started playing cards waiting for him. I had sand everywhere and asked S if I could take a shower, she said OK. She later joined me and then we went to the bedroom. One of my friends joined us later & did it with her, and then we both did it with her. The next day my friend said that it was the beer and apologized, I couldn't. It wasn't the beer. S & I had an affair for almost one year. I ended it because I could not look at JL straight in the eye. Years later they divorced for although the bodies changed she never did. I wish I had JL's ph. number, I would like to call him but I wouldn't know what to say. At the time I had a girlfriend, but in my macho mentality I never thought I was betraying her or causing S any damage. The affair ended because I was feeling uneasy with JL.<P>6 months into my relationship with C (then girlfriend, now W) she went to NY & during her trip I met this girl at the then only decent bar in town. The evening ended with me in her apartment and she really willing. I walked out with mixed feelings: I really wanted to stay but couldn't imagine facing C. The same story has happened several times while she is out of town. 8 times at least. I always walked out. But my mind stayed and I day dreamed…<P>I guess ours is not a 15-year long honeymoon, but many years of denying that something wasn't working.<P>Today she's in a short trip. Nonight (Monday) I went alone to this book's presentation, declined the invitation to go to an after-presentation party and came back home. I feel no inclination to find any girl tonight (never did anything anyway). The girl I want is not in town.<P>But in my mind I DID go to bed with each and everyone of those women, I was just too coward to go all the way.<P>2 months ago I realized that something wasn't working and I was actually LOOKING for a lover. C found one first. If she hadn't she would probably be posting here tonight saying how cruel I am, etc. etc. etc.<P>The point is, I am a cheater just like she is; I did not do it physically because timing didn't work my way, it's all. No, there's more: sh'e cheating on my... I've been cheating my self too.<P>This ordeal has really been an eye opener. I just hope & pray that we grow out of this together being better human beings, better spouses and better lovers.<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR>Live and learn<p>[This message has been edited by ThisAlex (edited December 14, 1999).]

OPINIONS ANYONE?<P>------------------<BR>Live and learn

I'm not really sure if you're looking for advice, or validation, or consolation, but it's clear from your second post - the request for opinions when no one replied - that you're looking for something...<P>I don't really know what to say to your post. When I read it I thought it was just something you wanted to get off your chest. I admire you for "cheating in your mind" but remaining physically faithful to your wife. You're human, and you shouldn't be punished for your thoughts (or daydreams). You didn't act on your thoughts, and I think (though I may take some heat for it) that is the important part. <P>I'm sorry you and your W are at such a difficult point right now. How are you doing about her affair? Is the OM out of the picture? I hope you two are able to apply Dr. Harley's principles pronto and rebuild your marriage...

Alex,<P>I recognize I think what stage you are in, it seems so familiar to how I was feeling at one point.<P>I am a little behind on reading the posts, life has definately had it ups and downs for me lately too.<P>But I read about the bar, and the next morning and it sounded as if a door was being checked so to speak. It sounded good, but the expectation you had the next morning was a LB. You can't place any expectations or demands on her right now.<P>I myself never did a "real" plan B, for some reason I just couldn't cut that cord so completely, it scared me to death. But I think God didn't really want me to either. He just wanted me to stop trying so hard, so he could work his magic.<P>I posted just about the same thing over on WilliamJ's {Angry & need to Vent}. Although the method to this madness is the same the details are different in each situation. But you and WilliamJ are pretty much in the same boat. Although I think you know what you need to be doing, you just can't seem to do it w/out some LBs. Its hard but you need to reach that point that you can not react or expect anything. Expect nothing and anything you get will be even that much nicer. Lock you taker up in a box and through away that key.<P>You MUST make yourself a safe place for her to run, you must be an attrative alternative.<P>This is getting to you I know how that feels and when I say what I am about to I want you to know that I say it out of concern.<P>You really need to pull yourself together. I can tell from your posts that you are on the edge. You need to realize that only you can do what needs to be done by you. You have to pull yourself together to be able to do just that.<P>Here's my suggestions...<P>1. Do not call her, do not invite her anywhere, do not go to see her or anything like that; let her initiate all contact.<BR>2. When contact is made you have to put forth the persona that you are strong and doing OK, even if you aren't. You'll have time to allow yourself that pity party we all need sometimes when she is gone.<BR>3. She must not see you as needy or desperate. She must not see you in an upset state each time she sees you. That is not going to make her feel as if she has someone strong and safe to run to.<P>The fact of the matter is that even though you don't give 2 cents for this OP, your W does and it will take time to work through that.<P>Do I think you have a real chance at getting your W back? Yes I do, but you have got to play your cards right and not rush the game.<P>When you are on a trip, there are many routes that you can take. You can take the direct route or the scenic route. Unfortunately, an affair almost always takes the scenic route. Some people get lost along the way but refuse to stop and get directions so they just drive around aimlessly. In an affair there are just to many drivers. If you stop and ask for directions, take them and get to your destination. If your W doens't meet you there right away, wait and pray for your w's safe journey and arrival.<BR> <BR>{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}<P>Genie

OK ThisAlex,<P>So, somewhere in your marriage with W, needs were not being met. Both your needs and hers. <P>I am not so worried about you "doing it" with these gals in your head. Hey... we all have fantasies! As long as we don't start trying to live each one of them out. But, it seems that you put yourself in a position where these type of "situations" arise quite easily. It sounds like a whole lot of your recreational time is spent away from wife in the company of other "possable" women.<P>Don't beat yourself up about that very early affair with S. Her needs were not being met, you happened to be there and whamo. You were young and it seems that only now you know how much you contributed to someone's pain. We all make mistakes, but it is the ones that we don't learn by that are hazardous. <P>Have you read Dr. Harley's His Needs, Her Needs? I found this book to be an invaluable tool in figuring out what my marriage to H needed. H got a whole lot out of book too. Just don't go to any book presentations where you might have the chance of meeting someone.<P>You need to find a new hobby to do when W goes out of town. It seems too easy for you to go out and find willing creatures that make you temp your fate.<P>My husband played part time in a R&R band. He met the OW while playing at a local bar. Needless to say, he does not play out in the band anymore. His choice, but then again it is his choice to make this marriage work.<P>

Hi thisAlex,<P>You were not too coward to go all the way, you just realize to my opinion that although you needed some physical stimulation the one and only one you wanted was not there. It is normal to have fantazies, i think that everyone has it, and not the nicest one, sometimes i find that i want to have sex badly with a group of man but thinking from doing is a far away distance. The body in this case, your body sometimes cry for some stimulation specially when you are not getting it, and you should be proud that you had the strengh to stop your self and do the right thing.<P>ThisAlex, Know what my husband told me today via e-mail? you maybe look for other people to decide for you, but you are the only resposible for your decisions" I responded " you are right, whatever problems we had in our marriage did not give me the reazon or the right to cheat on you, we could had finish or work out things in a different way"<P>You cheated on your W, 8 times, 1000 times, and to me, i believe that you are feeling kind of guilty and angry, guilty for doing it, and angry because you maight believe that she had the right to do what she did since you did it or because you deserve to go trought all this.<P>You in the first place should not feel guilty, because it was something that happened and that finished. You do not deserve that your W did this to you because there are other ways to solve problems out. But since this whole thing has happened try to make the best you can out of it. Have you ever though of flirting with your wife again ( cortejarla) again? <P>Maybe doing all those things that you did when you where young without pushing it. Remember maybe, the first time you went to a girl and she said no, and no, and no. than you keep trying until you got it or recognize that she did not wanted you? Begging again, never to late. Maybe now is better, you know her, know what she loves the most, what makes her angry and what make her laugh like a kid. Whatever happened in the past is the past, was mistake made out of both of you. She may have a lover, alright. Do you remember maybe in school anygirl you wanted and had a boyfriend, and how hard you maight had try to get her. Do the same thing, she is the girl that you got the crush on, forget that she has a boyfriend, get her, fight for her. And the past, what she did, what you did, that cannot be change, so if something cannot be change, why spending time worring about, instead, fight to get that new girl that you are in-love with.

UPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSS:<P>I am so sorry, i never ead your profile until right now, had no idea was another woman. I got no words, nothing that i can tell you.<P>i feel all out of place.

Alex,<P>Thumbs up to you for being able to admit your side of things. It is NOT an easy thing to do. <BR>Here is something you may not have considered: perhaps you have been persuing other women in the past not due tro a charater flaw (which is bull [censored] anyhow) but because of a poor self esteem? I dunno - just food for thought.<P>I say this becasue I have come to realize that the self esteem issue and my infidelity went hand and hand. It didn't make any sense to me when H first suggested that it may be part of the cause. But in retrospect, I see several situations - ones that weren't affairs but potential ones that were egged on by the crappy way I feel about me inside.<P>I don't want to write a book here, no time, but think about it - It may be different for men tho. <P>Khyra