My WW gave me a card today that defines Love as...

- Being there for each other (no matter what). * I guess, for her it means me being there no matter what. What about me?
- Holding hands, walking in rain, and not being aware of the rain. * Like she did with him.
- That certain look. * Like she oogled at him many times in front of me.
- A fairy tale that does come true. * But ends as a nightmare for me.
- Trust. * Don't even get me started.
- Passion. * Don't even get me started.
- Indefinable in its purest form. * But utterly defile-able.

*s are my comments. Sorry, just venting a bit. She probably intends this to make me feel better right now and would not respond favorably to a bunch of LBs about her A.

You are hurting, we've all been there. But if you want this marriage to work, you have to get beyond the anger and look towards building up the relationship. It's harder said than done. I was only able to do it with God's help. Is your love for your marriage and your wife bigger than your anger?

Lyxa:

I'd bet cash money you're last sentence is right!

Try to take this as a positive. It won't make or break your M, but it does show you that she's thinking of you.

- She said she loved me... married me... promised to love me forever.
- Then, she said she loved him, proved it to him.
- Now she doesn't love him and loves me... or at least says she does.

Ahhh... another 3 a.m. post. Isn't it funny how you wake up every damn day at this time, no matter how exhausted you are?

- Clearly, "love" is not the exclusive thing I thought it was.

Lyxa,

I wonder how you are doing really. I can see that the A consumes much of your waking thoughts. My question for you is what are you doing about it?

In the beginning you seemed to wonder whether to stay or leave, make her leave, or let her stay.

Do you want to work on your marriage?

If so, what are you doing about it?

Note that I just ask to better respond to your requests for help.

There are many reasons people come here. Many come to vent, like you are doing. Many want to rebuild and want specific suggestions.

May I point out that your wife could have left, but didn't. To most, that means something. She has made a terrible mistake. ( I know the words I use don't begin to describe it, but what could?)

She says she wants help, wants to make it work. Most of the things you tell us about her are textbook problems, can many times be overcome. So my question again, Do you want to make it work? If so, perhaps we can start to give you information enabling you to do that.

I know it hurts, will for quite some time. I don't mean to get on your bad side, stop your grieving. BUT, if you want to save things, it's time to go to work. There is much to do. Let us know -

SS

Hi Lyxa,

Hang in there.... you are only one month past D-Day. I know how much you are hurting right now...and I'm sorry that you're going through this.

It's OK to vent here... in fact, I sure wish that this site was around way back in 88-90 when I was going through my roughest times....

The hurt and pain WILL go away as you continue to rebuild your M... but it's going to take time. I'm not about to tell you that you shouldn't be feeling what you are feeling right now. I think that most/all of us BS have felt the same way.

If you are really committed to rebuilding your M, then you need to look for ways to control your anger and hurt. Nothing wrong with being angry... but look for healthy ways to deal with your anger.

I probably would have written the exact same things that you did if my wife had given me that card one month after D-day....

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Initially, I thought that I did want to rebuild... though I'd be a liar if I said I wasn't ambivalent. We separated and I realized how much I really and truly cared about her.

Now, I know more about the A. My WW says that I know everything... that there is nothing else to tell. Everyday I come home to what originally was Our House... then My House... now I see it as a whorehouse. I wonder if I'll have to sell it. We had so many good memories here.

But, I'm sick of hearing about him. I don't think she does it consciously, but she compares me to him all the time. For 8 months, she set practically no boundaries on her relationship with Him. Several times now, she has told me (after staunchly defending his actions) that she feels like I expect her to do sexual favors for me. She unconsciously LBs. Gently, and angrily, I have asked her to stop and made her aware of how she is doing these things. She continues.

I want her to be my princess. But, increasingly I can't see her that way. I am losing love for her, after having lost all respect for her. More and more, I feel that I will rebuild without her because she is only paying lip service to the concept... as she proves each time she retreats into how great the uninhibited stuff with him was and then sets up boundaries for me.

I have had 10 seizures since D-Day, 1 nervous breakdown, have lost my job. How can I possibly love a person like this? How can I realize my dreams of career and family when I have no reassurances that she isn't back her turning our home into a free sex house?

Our MC told us to commit to 3 months. That's 84 more days of hell. And, that's what it feels like right now - HELL. I guess my psyche's id is finally returning after shellshock because there is nothing more that I want right now than to get in my car and drive somewhere she'll never find me. I know it won't make the pain go away, but at least I'll never have to see her again.

How many of you regret your decision to rebuild? Oh, and there's no hard feelings towards any of you. It's all information to me. Challenge your perceived thoughts about what I'm thinking and maybe it'll force me into clearer and safer thinking.

<small>[ July 16, 2002, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Lyxa ]</small>

Have you looked into meds? They really helped me deal with the pain and irrational thoughts. One month after D-Day was the worst time for me. My Dr. put me on an SSRI. I was incredulous at first, but took them anyway. Within a month, my outlook and emotional control improved dramatically. I am three months into this now, and though my WW's EA isn't over, she isn't gone either. My outlook is generally good. Some days are worse than others, but I don't feel like I am trapped in h**l anymore.

You may be wanting too much too fast. From another site: Slowlee Slowlee Catchee Monkee... IOW, this won't go on your timetable.

ST

Well, OK, I suppose that answers my questions.

Let me summarize what I think you said.

1. I live in Hell
2. I'm not sure what I want to do. Sometimes I want to stay in marriage, sometimes I want to leave.

Lets see if we can help you know what you want to do.

First, you love her, you hate her. How can you love someone that hurt you so bad. How can you leave someone that you love so much.

My question here is: what have you read? what are you reading? Have you gotten "Surviving An Affair" by Harley? Other books are mentioned on the site. I know you are going to counseling, but this book gives information that can help you understand both your feelings and how to cope with what is happening to both of you.
I believe you are on meds for depression. I think that is good.

Here is a start to what is going on with your W. Some of it does not apply, because it looks like she has finished the A. However much of it explains her state of mind.
Wat's Guide

She is probably not continuing to hurt you on purpose, she has to cope with her side of it and she is limited in what she can cope with, just like you are.

Next, here is the story of someone that had it worse than you do, he came back and brought her with him.
K's Story

Next, you need to start a plan for recovery, that or just leave. No reason to stay and listen to it, feel those feelings if you are going to end it anyway. So decide. If you are staying, you need that plan. By now you have heard it called plan A.
Here are some references.
NSR's links to info about plan A and B

Did your Bishop help any? Prayer and religious activity has been a big help for most of us. Can you continue to get help there? Is it helping W?

I can tell you that you can get further by being kind to W than angry. People seem to like to be around others that make them feel good, not others that treat them badly. She feels guilty and will take some anger now, but she won't long term. Why should you have to do any work in this? She was the one that did all the damage. Well, I believe the scripture says " love your enemies." I think it works. In the long run, I think it's the only thing that really works.

So, if you want recovery, you have to change yourself too. You can become the person she desires to always be with. You can learn to love her again, she you.

I believe she wants to try. I believe she gave you that card out of that desire. It appears you can't accept the good because of all the past bad. I don't believe you will be happy if you don't give everything you have at an attempt to make it work. You can always quit later if you think it won't work, but you can't always go back if you quit now. Abraham Lincoln said " If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you certanily will." You need to start looking for good in what she does, not bad. Always looking at the bad will destroy you both.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Gently, and angrily, I have asked her to stop and made her aware of how she is doing these things. She continues. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read WAT's guide again. She doesn't know what she is doing, and you can tell her, and tell her but she won't get it. Then one day she will wake up and realize it, and start on recovery, question is will you still be there when that day comes. Please realize that logic doesn't work right now. You can't explain something to her and expect her to understand and change, she needs time and love, so do you.

I won't say more about her, but don't give up on yourself. Believe that you can let it go, that you can make it work. Then start doing it. Time is a big factor, if you can stand it long enough, you will probably come out OK.

So again, where are you headed ? Do you have it in you to do what you need to do?

SS

No offense but I think you need some counseling asap. Anfer has always been a big problem with me so I can identify. Work on yourself for awhile then you can more clearly decide if you want to be married to the W or not.

Have been in independent counselling for 3 weeks now and we started MC last week. I have read and studied SAA and also After the Affair by Janis Abrams. I have also poured through MB and other websites.

I find myself growing cold and numb. I don't want to live my life with that. Being cold and numb is the only way I can work through the feelings. It isn't anger so much as self-loathing. All the lies I bought into during her A; all the things I did for her because I thought I was helping when in fact it was all about him; all the things she has done and said since coming back.

She has also said nicer things. She has also done some things to try and I do believe that she hasn't had any contact with the [censored]. Oh, there I go again... if I truly believe that he's a [censored], then I must believe that about my wife also. I don't want to be married to a [censored]. Yesterday, I put my wedding ring back on to remind myself of the fundamental promises it represents and the fact that I haven't broken them.

My plan is to seek understanding, be the best I can... and do what our MC says while giving it 3 months. Sadly, that's October 10th... which is right when they started kissing and making out. October will be there Month of Firsts... with November being their Month of BIG FIRSTS. Regardless of what SHE does, I have to rebuild my life. I wonder if I can open up enough to her to let her help but keep her from touching anything fundamental.

In the end, I think that I just need to shut up and give it time.

Hey L,
I didn't mean to shut you down. What you are saying is valid. It's just that I believe you can get past all of it if you want to. Time will help. I had a friend that was an alcholic. He really wanted to quit - really. But he would go out with friends and come back drunk. We were trying to help him, he stayed with us for a while. I could have kicked him out and told him he was a drunk and he could find his own way, it was actually true. However, now he has a regular job again, has a place to live, and is doing pretty good. He apears to be recovered.

I believe he needed help for his problem. I don't think telling him what he was, being hard on him would have helped him.

Perhaps your wife already knows what she is. Perhaps she hates herself more than you do. (when she thinks about it, for many it hurts so bad they put it away, called fog.)
Perhaps now she needs help to recover. An affair can be (and often is) compared to an addiction. She has the habbits of an addict,(speach patterns and everything) but it looks like she wants to change them.

You have all these triggers that set you off, more to come. I really believe you can recover but you have to want it badly. You have to activly change your own thinking or the negitive will destroy any good that happens. You have to want it very, very badly. If you can't do that, you should consider your only other choice. There really is only one other.

Again, it's really not fair that you should have to be the one to do the work, you are the injured party. But as with my drunk friend, he couldn't do it, so others had to help. I think she needs, and would respond to loving help. Make your choice, the longer you wait, the more dammage will be done. You don't have the energy, the drive, or the skills to do it right now. But you have to anyway if you don't want a D. So you have to find a way. I have found that most of us can do just about what we make up our mind to do.
So, make up your mind. Don't just sit and do nothing for 3 months, what a waste. If you have already made a decision, tell the C and leave. If not, do the work.
I hurt for you, but man, DO SOMETHING about it!

SS

Ok,
I read you again, and I believe I was a little harsh, you are trying to do something, but you need time. ( forgive me here.)

I suggest you find a book or tapes about self esteem or PMA and go through the drill they have. I believe you need to break out of the mold you are in. Thats what I mean by do something. If you don't activly change your thinking you won't get anywhere. You appear to get a start uphill and then come crashing back down. Your attitide, what you do with it, may make all the diffdrence. We sometimes think that our thoughts are reality, but our perspective can change. You can actually change the reality of your relationship by changing the way you think.

Plese look into it. In the meantime, look for postiive in her, I bet there is some.

Ss

I am looking for the positive... but it's so colored right now by recent events. I guess I just need space and time to distance myself from everything, maybe even her. I don't know. You're exactly right... I make this uphill start and then come crashing back down.

I just finished another IC session and realized that I have a lot of conditions on rebuilding. Maybe my love is conditional? Before I didn't feel like it was... but it must have been. Whether she comes with or not, I'm going to have to rebuild. Maybe my answer is whether she comes along for the rebuild ride or not. Maybe that should be my only unspoken condition?

Here's some additional information. May 14th he was staying with us and I kicked him out of the house. That night, I told her I wanted a divorce. Amongst all of the fighting, one of the things that she said was that if she had ended our marriage a year ago, it would have either been my fault or both of our faults. She also said that there was no way in hell that we would divorce without her robbing me blind... "Everyone will laugh at me if I don't take you to the cleaners." There's a large part of me that remembers this and everytime she talks about rebuilding, I hear her thinking, "I'll come back and bide my time. In a few months, we'll end this... not because of my A, but because he couldn't get over it." I feel like I need to beat her to the punch... I guess. I don't know.

One day my alcoholic friend got mad at the dinner table. He stood up, grabbed the table and tipped it over on all of us. Dumped off all the food, dishes, everything on the floor, all over us. He thought my son was making fun of him. It was a misunderstanding on both their parts.

1. It was a miss communication. Seems often we ALWAYS take things in the worst way. Well, sometimes they are meant in the worst way, but sometimes not. Why do we do that?

2. Even if my son was making fun of him, he should not have dumped the table on us. It wasn't right.

3. I could have shown him the door, but I did not.

4. He seems to be recovered now.

I think the bottom line is you don't know. She could be waiting to take you to the cleaners. She may do it. Lets play this out.

A. She does the worst, you have been nice, trying to reconcile. You are blindsided.

B. She does the worst, you planned for it and are ready. Things are bad for you, worse for her.

C. She does the worst, you are nice, try to reconcile, but have a back up plan, good lawyer.

D. She is trying to reconcile, but makes mistakes like my friend. You plan for the worst, treat her worst case.

E. She tries to reconcile. You treat her as such. Things work.

F. She tries to reconcile, you do to, but have back up plan if things turn out bad.

So I didn't state all the possibilities, but enough for you to see where I am going.
I don't believe you will be happy if you don't try to make it work. Sure you can see a lawyer, sure you should protect yourself. But can't you work as hard as possible for reconciliation at the same time?

That would mean you have to see positive and work for positive things. You still need to do something about attitude. It won't fix itself. It is a lot of work to change negative into positive.

She is going to dump the table sometimes. Just because she does, doesn't mean she can't improve and change. That is one thing MC is for. You can't always see it, too much grief. MC can see both sides, give an idea of what is really going on.

What I am trying to get across is this:
Don't say " well, I have to wait 3 months to see how bad it will be"

Say this, " Lets see just how much I can do in 3 months if I really work my butt off."

Does any of this make sense?

Again, just because she dumps the table doesn't mean all is lost. She really does need help. Just because OM is gone doesn't fix all her problems overnight. She has real problems, needs real help. She can't do this by herself.

Women ( all of us really) need love and kindness in a relationship. If you give it to her, you may both have a long and happy life together. If you don't, you will end up Divorced, and she will find some one to give it to her. You will do the same. Right now, you are still together. Perhaps you could try doing it for each other for a while? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
If you would like, I can give suggestions for how you can make it work. Let me know.
SS

<small>[ July 17, 2002, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

This thread and the responses of various people have been really helpful. It's helped put a lot in perspective. Thanks.

Doesn't change the fact that right now, my stomach is churning, my vision dimming, and I feel like I'm on the edge of another anxiety attack. I'll give it 3 months. We'll see what happens. I know that I need to be better and I think I've personally made some progress towards that. But, I still feel numb and cold inside. I hate it. I want to feel warm and loved. But, that has hurt so much... I still don't know if I want to open myself to that with HER.

She says that she doesn't know what she was thinking when she was doing things with him. That she doesn't know the meaning. I've found lots of meaning in it. She hasn't. Until she finds meaning for herself, her promises of rebuilding, re-committing, and "never doing it again" seem really shallow and trite.

I'd love to hear what your suggestions are. Please post them here or drop me an email at tover26@yahoo.com.

Thanks.

I want you to know I am not a professional councilor. I just came here for help like many others. I found it, I started to post. I have read thousands of others posts. The problems are similar, the solutions are similar. Some do them, some can't, or don't. I believe you can make this work. Many are in the middle of the A when they come here, you are in a better spot then most. I know that doesn't make you feel better but it is true.
Lets go on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She says that she doesn't know what she was thinking when she was doing things with him. That she doesn't know the meaning. I've found lots of meaning in it. She hasn't </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are asking things you can't ask yet, for answers she can't give.

The addiction comparison still helps here.

Does an addict love their family? Yes.

Do they intend to cause pain? No.

What do they think when they are drinking, shooting up, or whatever? What do they feel?

Lyxa, you are asking an question without an answer. I don't know how you go about asking, I don't know if you get angry, if she cries, or what. But it's a place you need to stop going. Someday she may be able to talk about it, but she has no better answers than the addict. You are doing more harm than good. I'm sorry, but you have to stop.
You have found lots of meaning in it, but you may very well be wrong. If you continue down that path, it's over, you may as well file for D now.

Lets find a starting place. All your thoughts are about her, why, when, what did she think, feel, etc. You need to start thinking about you. If this is going to be saved, you are going to do it.
Don't get me wrong, you have the right to walk away, we wouldn't feel you were wrong if you quit and Divorced her. . Words can't say how bad it is, how bad you feel. It's just that the clock is ticking, and if you want to save it, you need to jump up and get after it. So, I'll assume you want to save it.

1. This is off the wall a little bit, but get "Man's search for meaning" by
Victor Frankell. and read it. Try the library, or a bookstore if not there. This is about your attitude. You may think I am crazy but please do it. Paperback is about $7.00

2. You need to get another Job. You need to show yourself how strong you are. I know about anxiety attacks. We can cope with more than we think. IF you are on meds, keep taking your correct dosage. See your doctor if you get really bad. Call your Religious leader or a good friend and talk if needed. When it gets bad, don't go after your wife in anger, she needs help too, she can't help you right now. She just can't. You look to her for answers and she just can't give you any help yet. Someday she will but not now.

3. Yes, your stomach is churning, your whole world is gone, not there, blown away. So, you can die, or get up, dust yourself off, and go on. I hate to be harsh, but what choice do you have? Does being dead feel good? Is this where you want to stay? Do you like this?
I know you don't. But no one can change it but you. Again, please don't think I don't care about you, but you only have the two choices . I am trying to find a way to explain. I taught survival for a time. We studied why some survive and others don't. It is will power alone. Some give up, lay down and die. Some are already dead, but won't fall down, they continue on, and are saved. Please read the book, it will help you keep going. You have to reach down inside, find a way, and keep going.

You say you are cold and numb. You have to be nice to her anyway. You don't feel love, you have to do the work anyway. The warmth and love will come back, but you can't know that, and it won't motivate you. You have to give, love, care, be kind, all with will power alone until love, care and feeling starts to return. You have to just believe us, and do the work. Sorry, but that's the way it is right now.

Things could change in a month, or in two or in three. It could be 5. Lets see how you do.

Lets compare what I see here to being in a nuclear bomb shelter. I am going to recommend some things. You may say " Sounds good, perhaps next week, or something." From where I sit, the klaxons are going off, all the red lights are lit, there is a button to push, you have about 10 seconds to push it. Besides, it's better than where you are now, I mean, if you follow my suggestions, at least you will improve yourself and keep your mind busy.

So, if I remember, she left, ( or was kicked out) and came back. How are things now? Are you being nice to each other mostly, or what? How is she taking things? Do you talk without fighting? or is every conversation bad? Give us some help here.

I'll be back tomorrow. I see lots of good signs, she would not send that card if she didn't care. I hope you told her thanks, didn't tear her apart. There are good ways, and bad ways. I wish I could tell you everything I have learned, give you some hope, but it does take time. Have a little faith, it can work.

Let us know how you are doing. We do care.

SS

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi L,
Let me recap.

1. Work on you first. If you can't or don't want to do that book, read on this site. There are bad stories, marriages that didn't work. There are good ones, marriages that did work. Notice that even in the bad ones, those that learned to change themselves are much happier now. They transformed their attitude, and behavior. They left their former spouses in the dust so to speak, and are doing well now.

2. The improvement in self goes to all that are willing to do the work.

3. If you believe this, or are willing to start the work on faith, we have some common ground and a starting point.

If I have made you uncomfortable, I apologize. Just trying to help.

I hope you are OK.

SS

So, How are you doing?

Lyxa,

I feel your pain. Once my WW revealed her affair, and pregnancy (!) it took her a week to decide to recommit to our marriage, because she'd "fallen out of love" with me, and in love with him. I was not even in the country, no wonder she fell out of love with me! The bottom line is in my signature: Love is a choice. Your marriage can and will survive, if you both want it more than anything else in the world!

Anyway, here is the full story.

My wife and I are both in the military. In Jan 02, I came over here to Saudi Arabia, a one year assignment for me. My wife stayed back on AZ for a school and to work. Well, being a geographical bachelorette in a heavily male atmosphere got the better of her, and she carried on an affair with a peer for about 4 months. I went home on leave in time for both of us to find out she's pregnant! It took about a week for her to figure out who she wanted to be with, because he tried to get her to to leave me, take our daughter, and marry him. In that week, I did a fairly good job with Plan A, because we are both Christians and I love her tremendously, even with this pain. Thankfully, she chose to recommit to our marriage in the end. We saw a Christian MC while I was still home, but now I'm back over here, and I worry about her. I talk with her every day, trying to reconnect mentally and emotionally, so she's not so vulnerable, but I sometimes feel helpless. Dr. Harley emphasizes couples taking time together at the start of marital recovery. I can't do that until July of 2003 because my time here was extended 5 months! I found MB while I was reading Surviving an Affair, which I found in the chaplain's library here. The book and website are helping tremendously.

Am I a dunce? Back in 99, my wife had a 2 night affair with an ROTC classmate (she was a cadet at the time) while I was in Egypt. Again, a geographical bachelorette in a heavily male atmosphere (the military). Sometimes I feel so stupid, and sometimes I feel like I'm doing exactly what God wants me to do, because I love, and choose to love, my wife!

Is there anything I can do from 1/2 a world away? Right now, her mother is the only one who knows the whole story, and she's helping maintain accountability back there. My wife has promised to see the church counselor, but after a week back there in AZ, has yet to schedule an appointment. She's promised me she'd see her this week, but I'm getting restless about it.

We're going to keep the baby, and I will raise it as daddy. I've dedicated this to God and to my wife. There's got to be a reason for it. I'm also worried the other man will try to insert himself back into our relationship, which is why I'm going to contact his boss (adultery is still a crime in the military) and chaplain to force counseling for him; he has shown no remorse for what he's done, just for the pain he's caused my wife and what he's losing by not being able to be the father he wants to be.

Sometimes I get so angry about it! Self-inflicted pain, man, so no sympathy! You knocked up another man's wife while he was in the Middle East; and he outranks you by quite a bit! I've had my vengeful moments when I wanted to use rank and contacts to destroy his life. At this point, though, I just want to make sure he doesn't do this to any other marriages. My wife was weak and vulnerable, and he took advantage of that. It pisses me off.