First time I’ve posted. Been married for 17 years, been working hard at it most of that time. We started counseling three years ago and most all the focus was on her—she has to learn to deal with conflict, to not run away when she has problems, to not see me as the enemy, to be stronger and more independent, etc.

I’ve always been a fan of radical honesty, but early on I realized I couldn’t do that with her. When I told her about sexual temptations or even talking to another women, she got very upset, very insecure, and always suspected me of doing more than I said. Three years ago I said “the heck with it” and started on the course of radical honesty, telling of my needs not being met, demanding that she tell me how I could meet her needs. We read His Needs Her Needs.

Finally, on Dec 1, 2001, she told me she’d had an affair with my friend, neighbor, and Sunday School classmate. It started seven years ago, during a time when I was away two nights a week on business, and she was very lonely. He was a great guy. She did work for him, and he always looked after her—fixed the car, checked the oil,…-- and he’s a sensitive guy, married to woman cold and critical like me. So one thing led to another. She’d cut it off on occasion and he’d persist, and they kept at it. It lasted two years and she finally cut him off, and stopped working for him.

This friend of ours died in an accident last summer. Good news—he’s out of the picture, Bad news—I don’t get to punch him in the nose. A few months after he died, she told me of the affair.

So my first reaction was to forgive her. I understand. I’ve been a lousy husband. He was a great guy. I know you two were friends, better friends than me and him or me and you. Were you soul mates? No. Was it just physical? No, we were friends and we were both lonely. It wasn’t about sex. Bull, I said. Of course it was about sex. You wouldn’t have anything to confess if there was no sex—it would then just be good friends, totally innocent.

So we’ve had our discussions over the months. I’ve asked for a few details, but not many. How did it start? Did his wife suspect? Who else might know? Occasionally I flash back to a moment in time and picture them together, or picture them sneaking around, or in my bed, and it makes me very angry. It makes me mad that everyone in this town thinks he was a saint, and my wife too. My view of the church is one of disgust—you’re all just like these two, is the way I’m thinking right now. I get angry that my sexual needs are still not being met, and sure weren’t back then, but she was willing to help meet his need.

And so I’m here seven months later and I’m struggling to deal with the anger. A truck drives by that sounds like his, and I think of him. I think of making love to her and I wonder what they did, how he undressed her, how good she was for him. I step into her office and think of the times I let them talk business in there alone, and I wonder how many times they lied to me. I think about how blind I was to the whole thing and blame myself for being such a fool.

I feel depressed. I’ve had a few binges on alcohol and marijuana since December, and I know that’s not the answer. I’ve unleashed my rage in verbal assaults on her, and I know that’s not the answer. We’ve talked about it plenty—I don’t think we need to talk anymore. I don’t need to beat her up with it any more, but I’m sick in my stomach. I’m lonely.

I need some advice on how to deal with the anger, the depression, and the recurring thought patterns. How to share my feelings with her without making her feel worse, or how to keep them to myself without getting sick

Sick to my stomach

Hi STMS,

Welcome to MB.... I'm sorry that you are hurting so much right now. Please know that there are many people here that have been where you are right now.

Have you read all of the articles here on the MB web site? If not, then you should start reading.... I'd also recommend getting the book Torn Asunder by Dave Carder....

I've felt the same exact feelings that you've described to us. I can honestly say that if you and your W are committed to rebuilding your M, then you CAN have a better M than you ever thought possible. It will take a lot of pain and heart ache...and lots and lots of time... but it can be done....

Again, welcome and best of luck....

Semper Fi,
RIF90 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hello STMS;
Take it from a wounded heart, stop letting images of what your wife was doing with other men go through your mind. I know this is near impossible to do, but let me share with you how it worked for me:
Whenever thoughts like this begin to come to mind, I would make myself busy by thinking about the things that make me happy (the children, their smiles, etc..) and I immediately change what I am doing in order to occupy my mind with other things.

One one hand, it is good that your wife admitted the affair. Mine denied it flat out despite the fact I presented her with copies of her own hand-written letters to the person she had the affair with (my own brother).
On the other hand, now you are probably thinking of all the "why me, why did this happen, why wasn't I enough, what could I have done to prevent this, etc..." and the cycle of anger, depression, and pain continue to take toll on you.
Please surround yourself with trustworthy friends and tell some of them what is bothering you, also, read some of the posts on this valuable site and you will see just like I did that you should not blame yourself for your wife's actions. My counselor told me it was her decision to have the affair and what I should do now is to think of what would make sense on the long run and try to work towards it.

I wish you the best, and please try to post updates on how things are going for you.

Thanks for the comments, both of you. I had a bad day Monday-- started with my computer crashing and losing important data. That makes anybody feel like a loser, but it was strange how immediately my mind went back to all those bad thoughts. It was like I was numb for a couple days. I focused on staying away from the drugs and alcohol, and staying close to my wife, who of course has no idea what to say or do for me but is trying to be supportive.
Talking to a friend (the only one who knows about this) is what helped me snap out of it. He is a repentent infidel, and so talking seems to help both of us. The posts on this site also were an encouragement.
So for now I've snapped out of it. I bought the two books mentioned-- Harley's SAA, and Torn Asunder. I'm reading Torn Asunder and that helps. Seems like he gets so analytical that it removes the emotions from the whole thing, at least at this point in the book.
One thing this type of experience does for me: it helps me understand my wife better, who is a very different personality type and very much driven by her feelings and not her thoughts. This turmoil is probably the closest thing I've ever felt to feeling the way she has felt at times. I think she really understands the pain I feel because she's felt such pain herself.
I've never had problems controlling my feelings before. Maybe from all this I'll learn to feel more, maybe be more sensitive or more empathetic, I don't know.
Thank you both for responding. I feel for both of you. It sure is a screwed up world, isn't it? I just can't believe that all this is as common as it is. It's very, very sad. Thanks again.

I'm going through the exact same thing, except my H didnt call off his 2 year affair until the day I found out. D.Day was only 5.7.02 and it worries me that I will still have the same images and thoughts forever. I also have the added burden of the OW living in our small town of 1000 people and harrassing me when she can.

My heart goes out to you and I hope we can both recover from our betrayal. I know it is a long road.

Robyn

STMS could your W be suffering from depression?. Just like you indulged in alcohol and marijuana to cope with your feelings, she indulged in her affair to cope with her feelings of emotional abandonment.

There is a difference between radical honesty and judgemental honesty for the purpose of lashing out against the person that has hurt us. Just maybe you've been a practicioner of the latter kind and thus your W doesn't feel safe in expressing her feelings to you because of how you'll judge her. Her OM may have created a safe environment where she was free to express her feelings freely without judgement and thus was happy and grateful to him that she fell in love with him. So when she said to you that the sex was not the primary motivation for sleeping with him, she is probably telling you the truth. Women tend to value more the emotional satisfaction than the sexual one. Mind you that all of this does not justify one iota her A because she had an obligation to come forward - just like you did 3 years ago - and tell you that she had been feeling lonely, neglected, unhappy in the M.

I would suggest that you and your W seek counseling because things don't look any better than they were before the A. If she is unwilling to go then you go because your anger will continue to poison not only your M but your wellbeign as well.

<small>[ July 21, 2002, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TMCM,
You are correct regarding my wife's depression. We've been in counseling on and off for 2-3 years, and that is commonly suggested by the counselors. My wife is strongly opposed to anti-depressants, but took some for a while "just to shut us up" (me and the counselor). I never pushed her, she made that choice herself. She quit after six months saying it didn't make a difference.
You are also correct regarding my judgemental honesty. One of the problems we've dealt with in counseling is that she doesn't criticism well and she avoids conflict. In her family of origin, peace=good, disagreement=bad. This makes working out differences a very long and arduous process.
I was just reading in Torn Asunder about how I need to express my anger at the affair. I forgave my wife very quickly, and I guess the anger is just bubbling up now, 7 months later. I also read that the length of my recovery may be equal to lenght of the affair-- two years in this case. That makes me feel a little better.
QUESTION: Carder and Harley seem to have slightly different views on "How much information" I should request about the affair. Harley seems to say I should focus on the present and future, and not worry about the past. Carder says the unanswered questions will fester and persist and just stretch the recovery out longer.
As I read about how affairs work, I realize more lies and deceptions over that two year period, and I also realized things she told me just in the last few months that probably are not true-- not lies, but just not telling me the whole truth to "keep the peace" or even to protect my feelings. I realized the danger of having all those images in my mind of what they did, when, etc, but the questions persist and nag at me.
Anyone got a good guideline for how deep to dig, how much to pry, and how much I should expect my wife to share?
Thanks a bunch.

STMS, I'ts really good that you are reading those books and I'd like to suggest you read one more by Harley titled 'Love Busters: overcoming habits that destroy romantic love'. Since I take it that you love your wife very much, this book can help you tremendously in identifying those habits of yours that might be killing the love she has for you.

Your anger is totally natural, but it will eventually destroy the love she has for you. You must also remember that your wife - like most women - needs to feel good about herself before she is ready to make love to you, and your anger towards her will hardly make her feel good about herself. Surprise her and do nice things for her that she normally would not expect from you like giving her a massage, writte a little love poem, give her an unexpected hug accompanied by an 'I love you so much', offer to help her with any of her projects, etc. Try to be more of a lover than a husband. Who knows it's crazy enough that it just might work.

<small>[ July 22, 2002, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

This roller coaster is making me sick again.

I keep having these fits of anger and frustration and despair, and I try sharing with her as a friend and it just makes her feel worse.

I feel like there's still a barrier between us and she will only get so close. She does not want to proceed with POJA although I think that would help some of our problems, and she doesn't like the PORH-- there's parts of me she doesn't want to know.

All the Christian Marriage books say we should have the type relationship where I could share anything with her-- temptations, sexual needs, desires, etc-- and she can be there for me. But me sharing any of this just makes her hate herself and distrust me.

I feel like we're so close to knowing each other completely and accepting each other and helping each other, but she is keeping her distance. In our last marriage counseling session, she suggested we don't need anymore counseling. We're going again today, but she wants to talk about me, not her. Fortunately, there's plenty to talk about.

Anyone else had troubles like this? I feel like we're so close, but there's a wall. I told her I know I can't make her trust me, I can only be trustworthy, but it seems like no matter what I do she distrusts or points to something that makes her feel I'm hiding something. What can I do???

It's ironic that the guilt and shame our waywards feel is often the greatest barrier to rebuilding the marriage... after all, they say, "If he had had the affair on me, I would probably be divorcing him right now... so, it only makes sense that divorce is his intent." They get worried that your reaching is out is not for love, but to get "ammo" you can use against them.

An interesting insight I recently had with my therapist... our waywards know how angry we are about the affair... often without us breathing a word about it. The anger is written in our countenances... I know it is in mine. But, on their end of things, they don't want to acknowledge that it was that BIG OF A MISTAKE, or that the lover was a [censored] SCUM OF THE EARTH MORON... because our waywards fell in love with them - and what does that say about them? So, unconsciously, as they try to cope with things, they reach out to defend themselves. And, they know it makes it worse... so there is a wall there to protect themselves from our anger.

Another comment, the affair wasn't about you. For all my marriage, I've defined myself against the "special love" I thought my wife and I shared. Sure, I am an ambitious person and I rationalized my career ambitions often at her expense. But, I didn't have an affaiir... she did. One day, I realized that my participation, my responsibility, and my role in the affair stops at the point that I allowed/created an environment where an Affair could happen. Everything that has happened since then, has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. My role in the affair, in the confession, in all of the things that has happened during the last 9 months of my marriage have almost nothing to do with me. It's about the wayward. The only influence I can exert at this point is to:
- Make myself a better person.
- Recognize and ensure I never allow this kind of affair-supporting environment to happen in my home and family again.
- Until ambivalence and anger have time to resolve themselves, shut up, and intellectually recommit to her and rebuilding the marriage... even if it means biting my tongue and pretending that there is Love, Respect, and Trust.

I think that I, like you, tend to use the PORHonesty at my wayward's expense. "I'm feeling this way..." when in fact I'm implying that she should be feeling or expressing something I'm not seeing. Give it time.

My single greatest regret in how I've handled this so far: when I get angry or sad or volatile, I wish I had said, "I'm not feeling well, I need some time alone. It has nothing to do with you. I'll be back shortly."

Thanks, Lyxa. This is very encouraging. Sounds like you are dealing with same issues in a similar way.

One of my insights in the last week is that I think I tried to get through this too fast-- I didn't give myself time to be angry and sad. I used the strategy of "if you fall off the bike, you get back on." As a result, I continued doing some things that continue to reopen my wounds.

For example, I was the Sunday School teacher to my wife and the OM. So now every Sunday I have bad feelings of church. I think of them conniving, smiling, thinking what a fool I am... I've skipped Sunday School a few times, but not many-- my wife gives me little grace in this area and lets me know she wants a husband who takes his family to Sunday School. So I've been going, but feeling bad every Sunday, constantly reopening these wounds that never got a chance to heal.

So now I think we've agreed that I MUST NOT go to Sunday School, as long as it makes me feel bad-- why go somewhere that makes me feel bitter and angry. We can switch churches or visit others or do something else, but I can't keep putting myself in the position to get angry, upset, emotional.

I shared someone's quote about having 5 or 6 mood swings a day, and she's seen that in me. So now I just tell her I'm having one of those... and she let's me be, and we don't get in a fight.

Thanks again to all who have offered support in this forum. It's been very helpful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sick to my stomach:
<strong>One of my insights in the last week is that I think I tried to get through this too fast-- I didn't give myself time to be angry and sad. I used the strategy of "if you fall off the bike, you get back on." As a result, I continued doing some things that continue to reopen my wounds.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know STMS? This isn't falling off a bike and getting back on. This is a major car crash and you are badly hurt. It's not a scratch, it needs surgery and time to heal! So first off don't pull yourself down thinking why aren't I fixed yet?

Anger is a natural reaction and needs an outlet, my best choice was a physical outlet like running.

These things you think reopen wounds are triggers, so do a search here on Triggers and read up on how to cope with them. Your described reactions to Sunday School is like a trigger to me.

It's gonna take some time to heal this, so try not to launch verbally against your WS and avoid the drink and drugs, they'll just hit you worse.

Ben.