First, thanks to everyone who shares their stories and pain and hope and wisdom on this web site. Your words have helped me tremendously over the past few weeks. If only we could have had this kind of information and support 20 years ago, maybe I would not be writing now.

Almost 20 years ago, under the Christmas tree, my H told me that he was having an A with his high school sweetheart. I was devastated. It was a long distance A, with letters and phone calls and only a few meetings. For two months we fought and cried and lived in limbo while he tried to sort out his feelings and decide if he wanted to stay or leave. Then he came home one day and told me that the A was over and there would be no more contact. He said that it had been a mistake that he deeply regretted and he would never do anything to hurt me again. He was depressed for a few months and then gradually felt better and went on to be the loving and caring husband he had been before the A.

The storm raged on for me and for our marriage for several years, as I struggled first with anger and depression and then doubt that I could ever trust him. There were long talks, counseling, contracts signed yearly on our wedding anniversary to reaffirm our love and pledge our loyalty, attempts to become better at communicating. We learned to live with the sad episode and even feel stronger as a couple for it. As we saw marriages all around us flounder and crumble, we felt proud that we had had the love and strength to make it, that our family was intact, and that we were good friends, lovers, and soul mates to each other. Over the years my gut feelings told me that there was still guilt, that he was hiding something, and there were some professional relationships where the boundaries felt too loose (to me). When I shared my feelings, I always received the message that I was the only one, that it was a problem for him that I even had these feelings, and that I shouldn’t be having them. Whenever I asked if there had been any contact with the OW since the A, the answer was always a solid “no”.

A few weeks ago, while cleaning out some old files, I found a letter written by the OW 6 years after the A had “ended.” The letter was mostly newsy, but there was also an intimacy, a sharing of dreams, and it was signed “I love you”. It was clear that the correspondence had continued and that it was not just one way. When my H called that night (he was on a business trip), I told him I had found a letter and knew that contact with the OW had continued long after the A and that he had broken his explicit promise that there would be no more contact. I asked for the whole truth. He said the contact had continued after the A, but had “dwindled” to only an exchange of Christmas cards. He received one from the OW the past Christmas, but claimed that he hadn’t responded. When he came home the next day he was deeply shaken. He answered my questions and we made a plan to write the OW one last letter, which we have done (sealed and mailed by me), asking her not to respond and saying that this was really it and that there would be no more contact.

Since that time, with a lot of pressure from me, I have learned more including that the PA continued a few months after the A “ended.” He now says he has no more feelings for her, that I am his only love, that it was stupid, etc., etc. He says there are no more secrets. But I have been hearing that for 20 years and he seems to have an incredibly hard time “coming clean”. He has never, except on D-day #1, volunteered anything without being asked. Will I ever know if I have the whole truth? His reason for the lying was that he wanted to “protect” me. The contact that continued was “stupid”, but he didn’t end it even after the feelings were “gone” because to him it was just a matter of “catching up once a year with an old friend.” He admits that it was wrong to keep this secret from me. I feel so betrayed and sad that he has continued to communicate with this OW and has lied to me for so many years.

Because we have so many years under our belts and have had such smooth sailing (or the illusion of smooth sailing) for so long, I am having trouble knowing what to do with this new information. We really like being together, our sex life is warm and satisfying for us both, we have great friends, we love playing with our kids and grandkids together. Our marriage, even with this big ugly wart, has managed to function and even feel good. We have been happy together, particularly for the past 10 years. Is it all just a sham? I feel that our marriage has been diminished by these long-harbored secrets. I don’t feel like his soul mate anymore.

I have a deep love for this man and want to forgive him (again), but I need to know that there are no other lies or deceptions. I don’t want to find out 1 or 5 or 20 years down the road that he has other hurtful surprises for me. I don’t know what he could possibly do or say to convince me that he is telling the whole truth or that he will not lie again. I have spent many hours in the past few weeks reading (and lurking) on this website and have bought a few books. He read His Needs/Her Needs, he gave me the codes to his e-mail and voice mail accounts, he has stopped traveling (he was traveling one to three times per month), and he says he wants to work on our marriage. But I feel deep down that he would rather just go on and pretend none of this had ever happened and, unless I keep pushing, this will all just slip back beneath the rug. I can see that I have not been meeting all of his EN’s, nor he mine all of these years (although we have both improved since D-day #1). We have gained a better understanding of why the affair happened and why he was unable to end contact right afterwards. We have taken the ENQ and have some definite directions to go, even though old habits are going to die hard.

I’m glad that the secrets were finally discovered, but angry that at this point in our marriage we have to face and deal with all this again. I want to feel that we can truly change and have an incredible marriage for the rest of our years together, but I feel afraid that we might fail. Our kids and family and several close friends know about the D-day #1 and our struggle afterwards, and I don’t believe in keeping secrets, but I feel reluctant to tell them about D-day #2. So many questions. Any advice?

Welcome to MB!

Like you, it took my wife over 10 years to "come clean" with information of more A's.... so I know how you are feeling.

The pain of knowing that my wife lied to me all of these years hurts almost as much as the A's themselves.

I just wanted to let you know that you CAN move past all of this. Both you and your H must both be committed to working through all of this... it's going to take lots of painful, hard work, and lots and lots of time, but you CAN have the M that you desire.

Are you both in counseling? If not, I would strongly recommend that you find a good marriage counselor. Counseling has helped us tremendously. Also, get a copy of the book Torn Asunder by Dave Carder.... it will help explain the feelings that both you and your H are feeling right now....

Again, welcome... this is a great place to come and vent and to find answers to your questions from people that have been through what you are presently experiencing...

Semper Fi,
RIF90 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DarkSideoftheMoon:
<strong>Our kids and family and several close friends know about the D-day #1 and our struggle afterwards, and I don&#8217;t believe in keeping secrets, but I feel reluctant to tell them about D-day #2. So many questions. Any advice?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The purpose of sharing D-day is to expose the A to limited people so that their fog could get lifted. IMVHO, there is no need to share D-day #2. The A is ended w/ NC letter and H is willing to work on M. You have to make sure this time you put proper monitoring as part of getting back.

-RH-

Thank you, Rebuilding...,for the good advice. We didn't have good experiences with marriage counselors the first time around 20 years ago(tried 2, one we ended up counseling the counselor; the other saw us both a few times then only me--H lied to them both that A was over anyway. But I have the name of someone (in our town) that I have been debating whether to call. Maybe H will be more receptive this time, since he won't have to lie (I hope) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Thanks to redhat too, I really wanted to hear that it was ok to keep this "new" info between the two of us, even though it feels uncomfortable to have secrets. What I have been going through has made being with my grown-up daughter, who I share most everything with, very weird. I always worry that somehow the kids will find out and then feel doubly betrayed. How do others go through something like this and have "honest and open" relationships with their children, family, and close friends????? Does anyone else have opinions on this issue????

If your adult D asks questions about what's going on, you can honestly tell her that you and your H never properly "processed" the A and that you are both still working on it.... (I'm assuming that the OM was the same one for D-day #1 & #2...)

You could also tell your D that you are still committed to her father and that you are both working to make your M stronger.... Divorce affects adult children too... and this would provide her with some reassurance that her parents are still committed to each other.

My wife's 10+ year delay in telling me about her A's had me asking the exact same questions that you've asked... was our M just an act.... what else has she been hiding from me.... what else is she going to 'hold onto' for the next 10 years.... when is the next 'bomb' going to drop... All of these feelings are normal (and so very painful)... I'm sorry that you are having to go through all of this again.

The fear of "living another lie" for the next 10 years is real for me, but thankfully, my wife is SHOWING me that I can trust her again.... You and your H CAN have the intimate, loving, marriage that you both desire... It sounds like you're heading in the right direction in rebuilding.

Find a good counselor and get started... and get a copy of Torn Asunder.... I wish you both the best on your recovery.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Thanks again, RIF. I'll throw out one more question. After so many years WH has the skills of an academy award winning actor, so good at looking me in the eye and answering my question with a lie. He is so in the habit of withholding information that it seems almost impossible for him to volunteer anything other than neutral data (i.e., weather, news, latest scientific discoveries on Mars) without me asking for more information. He has "opened" his work calendar and e-mail and voice mail accounts to me (accessed remotely from home), but his calendar is often missing important engagements (he has a history of doublebooking and not knowing what is coming up until it is practically upon him...organizationally challenged, I guess <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ) Absentmindedness has been his excuse for a long time. If any of you were going to coach him, what would you say???

I'd say that his life...his WHOLE life... must become an open book. His answers to questions must have all the details he can remember. He must be accountable for all his time and spending patterns. No more secrets, that includes who knows and doesn't know about the A(when more people know about the A it tends to make it more difficult to continue it. Plus, the WS is forced to accept responsibility for their behaviour.). I'd say that after all the lying and game playing that MC and a 'no contact' letter to OW were conditions of marital reconciliation.

Hi Dark Side,

Tell me if I'm wrong here... The fact that it took your H so long to "come clean" has you wondering if you can EVER trust him again... that how can you even begin to trust him after he has lied to your face for the past 20 years...

I to feel the same way and have the same questions... For me, I DON'T think that I can ever trust my wife with the same blind trust that we had before I found out about her A's... I don't think that it would be healthy for me to do so either.

We didn't even start to rebuild the trust between us until my W opened up to me and told me everything... I know, you're thinking, "... so how do you know if she's told you the truth about EVERYTHING...?" As my wife became more open and willing to answer my questions (and I had a zillion questions!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) I started to realize that I could trust her enough to really answer ANY question that I had... so my questions started to drop off. Once my questions started dropping off, we were able to focus more on the "here and now", rather than the past.

If I were going to "coach" your H, I'd recommend that he be as open and honest about EVERYTHING... if he says that he's going to go to the store and will be back in 30 minutes, then by golly, he goes to the store and is back in 30 minutes... or he at least calls and tells you that he had a flat tire and will be late. He should do his absolute best to ensure that you are never "surprised" by any information regarding the A.... you should never get blindsided by something that he should have told you. He should take your EN questionair and list ways that he is going to try and meet them... (and you should do the same for his EN as well!!!) If he 'slips up' and forgets something, he should immediately tell you.... bad news doesn't get better with age, especially if it's information about the A.

In time, I think that you will find that your feelings of trust start coming back... but only after he's had a "proven track record" over the course of several consecutive months...

Hope this helps.....
RIF90

Dark,

I can relate to how you are feeling. In addition to reading HNHN I would suggest Surviving An Affair; and Give/Take which are both Harley books.

My H had an A 4 years ago; yet he told me about it 3/7/02. He was astonished that with the A being history that my reaction would be so extreme. He had continued contact with the OW after the A ended; right up until D-day when I said NO CONTACT. We too wrote a no contact letter; which she didn't respect completely.

Currently we are in counseling with Steve Harley. We've done the traditional marriage counseling; but like the Harley "Coaching" approach more. I copied this from one of my other threads. It isn't in any of the Harley books I've read; it was coached by Steve. It is a recovery plan which made all the difference in the world to our M.

We're recovering nicely, but have a long way to go. SH talking with my H has helped him understand how I feel. Prior to talking with Steve; we were stuck and going no-where.

Here's what SH recommended.

Step 1 - His assignment was to layout what happened with his A and why.

Step 2 - He was to convey empathy to me to let me know that he understood how his actions with the A caused me to feel.

Step 3 - His detailed plan, rules & guidelines to prevent an A from ever happening again.

Without the coaching instructions that go with this plan I'm not sure how useful you will find it. Good luck! CSue

DarkSideoftheMoon,

Work on your M first ... then later you decide if you need to disclose this info. Some info. better be left alone as family secreet ... About your D, you might let them know after the fact and after you are both into the recovery and upon your H aproval ...

Yes, I do have false recovery 5.5 years ago and I pay it dearly now.

-RH-

All of your feedback is very helpful. So much wisdom here from those who have been there.

mgm:We haven't done the history questionnaire. We tend to think we should know everything about each other after 30+ years, but that has sure proven to be false <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Your post made me remember that I had thought of us taking it before. I feel there is a stronger and stronger case for MC too. Thanks.

RIF: You are so right on. How did you know what I was thinking? You give me so much hope and appreciate your sharing. I hope someday we can look into each other's eyes with no guilt and no mistrust. I will share what you have written with him.

CSue: The case for MC (will consider the Harley's too) grows. The plan you outlined is interesting. Thank you.

redhat: Thanks for your empathy. I'm interested in exploring the whole concept of family secrets. I always fear that their discovery will cause more harm than the good caused by keeping them, but know that in reality they probably exist in almost every family. Or am I wrong???

DarkSideoftheMoon,

There are some facts that better be left under the rock and never unturn them ... There is a time for everything ... there is a time to tell and there is a time to keep it. The rule of thumb is what good does it do to disclose this ? ... you let your kid know when the time ready and when both of you way in recovery and rebuild M or you might never want to disclose it. When they ask ... tell the fact. (the truth is one's point of view of the fact ... be carefull about answering). I told my 2 D that I have all the fact and I will wrote a letter for them and enclosed it in the seal envelope. They could ask me for it when they are ready ... they could read it, burned it or do anything with it ... for now they should be worry about being kids.

My dad had an affair & had OC. My mom never told me about it, I knew it along time ago from my brother & sister (your kids probably know it already) ... I never ask since I am afraid of the answer and hurt my mom. Last summer I am ready since I need some answer for my own problem in my WW's A. She answered my questions on how she could take back my dad after what he had done and how she could past and heal the hurt ? ... she has rebuilt her M w/ a better one.

-RH-

Thanks, Redhat.

I have told my kids (both married with kids of their own) very casually that H and I are working on spending more time with each other, improvoing communication, etc., but decided to tell them more when and if the right moment comes up. Neither asked for more information, so it was easy. I will have more discussions with my WH (I so want to write FWH, but am just not sure yet) about whether, what, how, and when to give them more information. I keep wondering if these are pieces of information that could somehow help them in their lives. I definitely would like to share what we have been learning about relationships so that they can have stronger marriages and maybe avoid some of the mistakes we have. I feel relieved that there is no pressing need to tell them now.

I do keep thinking about honesty and openness, though, and how I now have a "secret life", not from my H, but from my kids and the rest of the world, in all that I am going through (in dealing with his former secret life) to try to sort this out and make changes. It seems so ironic. Ever since D-day #1, I have felt that when I make a new friend, there is a big piece of information about me that they will probably never know. And I wonder how they can understand me and where I am coming from without this knowledge. Maybe I am the dishonest one.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this??? Am I just not getting the big picture?

To change the subject: Since D-day #2, it has been an emotional roller coaster for me, although with a whole lot easier, with less pain and anxiety, than D-day #1. This time the OW is gone and there is no talk of separation or D and we are both actively working on our M. We have decided no MC right now, because my H is opposed to it, but agreed (we actually negotiated this!!!) that, if in 6 months, we are going nowhere, we will reconsider.

I have been surprized and happy that my H has agreed with the MB philosophy and said that a great marriage is what he wants too. I'm just not sure that we can do it with just the two of us. Trust is such an issue for me.

Gotta go. Thanks for listening.

Hi Dark Side,

First off IMHO, YOU are NOT keeping a 'secret' life.

The fact that you and your H are working through "marriage problems" is just that... You don't owe anyone any more information. It's really none of their business. There may be some close friends that you may eventually want to share your experiences with, but then again, you may decide to just not tell anyone.

It's kindof like when my mom had cancer... I didn't really feel that it was anyone elses business to tell them.... I did tell a few close friends and asked for their prayers, but as far as just meeting someone, and not telling them... I NEVER felt as if I were being 'dishonest' about anyting. So again, in my opinion... you are NOT being dishonest.

I hope that you will reconsider MC.... it's been such a great help to me and my wife. Also, if your H isn't willing to go to MC right now, see if he'd be willing to work through Torn Asunder with you....

Anyway, best of luck to you both.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF90

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Rebuilding in Faith 90 ]</small>

DarkSideoftheMoon,

Radical Honesty is one of the requirement for relationship however are you planning to have intimate relationship w/ the whole world ? ... w/ your hair dresser for instant ? ... of course not !. You definitly need to have RH with your family but some of them might not be the time now and you could assure them that when the right time come you could have heart-2-heart talk. For the rest of the world ... this is a private business, you have a choice of telling them you don't want to talk about it and they should repect you. You are not lying, you just draw boundry between family business and freindship, it is not dishonesty. Does the knowledge about this A help you or your H freindship with them ?. Does the knowledge that you are BS will help them to understand you as an individual in the freindship ?. Leave some stone unturned in freindship ... they might not even want to hear it or contibute anything to the freindship.

About just the two of you ... there are many do it yourself MBer w/ sucess ... the basic concept is simple ... care (filling ENs), protect (avoid LB), time (quality time that is) & honesty (radical ones) ... get yor H to read SAA & HNHN, fill in LBQ, ENQ & RAQ to work on. Use POJA to keep the communication/negotiation line open.

Both of you are in a good start ... on the track of recovery <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

BTW: Make sure NC in place w/ NC Letter & proper percautions ...
-RH-

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>