Ice Princess, I have been reading your posts for quite a while now and I thought I would respond. I don't post very often, but I've been here for over 2 years now. I have learned a great deal from the very supportive people here. I know your pain, my H didn't only INTEND to have sex with someone else, he did. And he didn't only have ONE affair, he had 3. One EMA, one PA which just included flirting and kissing and one full blown PA which lasted for 15 months. Talk about devastation. We are now married 28 years. At the time of the A's, I would say they started around 7 years ago and ended on D-day which was June 29, 2000, we were married for approx. 21 years. And not only did he have sex with the crotch cricket, but I also caught something from her. And Iike you, I loved my husband very much. We have 4 children and 2 grandchildren. He was and still is (thank GOD) my White Knight. Unfortunately, he felt he had to be everyone else's also. He had low self esteem and their attention just made him feel like he was Superman. It hurt, it hurt like hell, it STILL hurts and I wanted to dump him right away. Hell, my needs weren't being met and I didn't cheat. He was the social butterfly, out and about all the time. Getting more needs met then me, thats for sure. I didn't know what to do. I was so angry, hurt, sick, sorry, disgusted...... you think of all the adjectives and they all fit. But I didn't. I had to really get my wits about me and clear my head and really think long and hard, and I did and here is what I came up with.
Do you take your vows seriously? For better or worse. If you do, and please don't think I'm judging you, then look at this as the worse. I know, I know, I know, he took those same vows, BUT this is about YOU, not HIM. He made a bad decision. I hate when people call it a mistake, because a mistake is unintentional... when they did this they had every intention of doing it so it is NOT a MISTAKE. However, it was a very very bad decision. One that is very expensive in terms of pain, emotion, trust, etc. Now, let me ask you this. Have you ever made a BAD DECISION? I mean one that you really felt remorse for and regret? And after you did, did you ask GOD for forgiveness? Did you feel better purging your remorse and opening up yourself to GOD hoping that he would forgive you, actually, knowing that he would if you believe the Bible? How would you have felt if you left your prayer session feeling like GOD said "NO.... sorry, but I'm not going to forgive you. I just can't. I'm going to move on to someone that will love me more and not hurt me and follow my word more perfectly. Sorry, but you have not." How would that make you feel? Lonely, abandoned, more sorry then ever probably because you knew you failed and were baring you naked soul before GOD humbling yourself because of your transgression, but empty because HE said HE would not forgive you. I know that's how I felt when I finally realized how I was treating my H because of HIS bad decision. And then, praying one day I came to this realization, how can I not forgive him for what happened when GOD promises to forgive us if we are truly remorseful. Then I remembered the Lord's Prayer. It is very specific. "And forgive us our trespasses as we FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US. GOD says if we cannot forgive those who trespass against us then he will not forgive us. That scared me. The thought of GOD not forgiving me for any sins great or small (in HIS eyes a sin is a sin) woke me up to the realization that it is GOD who will decide if he is to be forgiven for what he did. Not me. I just had to learn to live with it. Accept it or reject it. That simple. And that's when our VOWS come in to play. We took them before GOD and our families and friends. I didn't want to be breaking a vow I took before GOD. I was afraid HE would not forgive me. I believe that once you truly give it to GOD, HE will help you forgive. Your husband, like mine is very very remorseful, and sorry. And wants to do everything he can to help make it better for you. TURST ME, he knows how bad he screwed up and I'm sure he'll never FORGIVE HIMSELF for hurting you and your marriage. He's beating himself up enough for the two of you. At least that's what my husband said to me. He said he will carry this for the rest of his life.
Let me give you another example..... You're walking down the street. You happen to look to the ground and you see a rolled up wrinkled, dirty, damaged $50 bill. Now mind you, its been in dirty hands, been kicked all over the place, its damaged and you know money, its one of the dirtiest things around right. Would you just leave it there or would you pick it up and be happy that you found it? If you're like most people I'm sure you would pick it up and be happy that you found it..... WHY..... Because even thou its dirty, on the ground, damaged, kicked around etc. IT STILL HAS ITS VALUE. Now, I know your husband, like mine (at least the way I viewed him) seemed dirty, disgusting, damaged goods but until I looked at it in this light I didn't see his value because I was still so hurt and angry. To me he lost his value because he was dirty, disgusting, damaged goods so to speak. But I knew in my heart how very wrong I was. I was just hurt and angry. Every human being has value, and this man has always been very good to me. I haven't worked in 28 years, he has taken care of me in every way. And then I realized that I love my H more than money (hell, if I could pick up a dirty $50 bill and still see its value, dirty, damaged, or whatever else it was, then I realized that YES even thou he hurt me and our family and our marriage, he STILL had VALUE, he just had to prove himself to me again. And he has been doing that since June 29, 2000. He has not wavered or fallen, he tells me where he is all the time, calls me and tells me he loves me, and we both spend all our spare time together now. It can be fixed, and it can be beautiful again. It just takes a lot of work and patience and love. And not to mention tears. But it can be done and it can be better then before. Trust me, I'm living proof.
Please Ice princess, read my post and try to see things the way I did, and maybe, just maybe, GOD can melt the ICE that is freezing your heart. And maybe you can change your name to Sunprincess where there is warmth and love again. Good luck and GOD BLESS. Its not an easy road to be on BUT YOU WILL BE A MUCH STRONGER PERSON. Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

Liza,

I really hear you. I bet that every BS out there has had those thoughts. As a matter of fact, you have expressed the conflict that I still am experiencing.

I did nothing to deserve this! I was faithful and will now have to live the rest of my life with an unfaithful partner.

I don't think there are any easy answers. This is where you must decide what you want. I know it does not seem fair that you are now in this position, but I guess that is life. As all of us have heard so many times, life is not fair.

You have to decide if you are willing to go on with your marriage with this new added history. Only you can decide what is in your heart.

On the positive side, you have a H that truly seem repentent. He has expressed his love for you and desire to be with you. Are you willing to be with him? Even with his flaws? Even with your tainted history?

I guess that I can only offer my sympathy for the struggle you are going through. I, too, feel it and have not resolved it. I know I love my H. But sometimes I struggle with thinking I might be better off if I just started over, found someone who could be faithful to me.

Although, on the other hand, just look around this website. I seems that fidelity is in short supply these days. There are no guarantees that a new spouse would be faithful, just like there is no guarantee that you H will not be unfaithful again.

I can see how you really struggle with wanting to understand the why. Because, as humans, we feel that if we can just understand why, we can plan a make sure it never happens again. The article Shattered Vows talks about this and I believe it is true.

You have my sympathy as you struggle with these issues. You have the right to make whatever decision is right for you. Only you will be able to know what you can live with and what you cannot.

FHO

Hi Liza,

Thanks - but it was not my quote. I saw it in 1anomous1. The post above the quote. I liked it and decided to isolate it out.

Had a busy week. I will come back when I have time to write.

Dear trynhrd:

thank you a hundred times for your post. You reached my heart. I read your words again and again. It really changed my attitude when you spoke about God and how he would not say : maybe I'll find someone who loves me more. You are right: God forgives. You are right: this is the "worse" where I promised to stay with my H. You are right: this is not a mistake what he did because it was intentional. After I read your post I decided I want to try, I want to give him this second chance. Thank you so much for taking all this time and effort to write these wonderful words to me. Please know that your support really made a difference in how I see things now.

Dear FHO:
thank you, too, for your thoughts. I am sorry to hear that you are in a similar situation like me. I get so sad when I read about many of our friends here who go through the same pain. But as sad as this is, there is also a huge amount of comfort in knowing that there are others who react the same way -at times- unreasonable, who don't know where they are going. Others who experience the same doubts, fears, anger and love. It makes me think that I am still somehow normal, although I have moved so far away from the person I have been before the A. Thank you so much.

Dear Sue:
thank you, too, for your words. I feel that you are like a good friend now. Thanks for always coming back checking on me. I'll be checking on you,too.

To all our friends here:
I am so grateful for all your support. If you ever wonder if there is a purpose to writing your posts- yes, it is, your words can really make a difference. Your words are very powerful, they can heal, they can change the view of the world, they speak of wisdom and forgiveness and love.
Thank you so much.

Liza,

you will be fine. It takes time. You have a husband who is remorseful and wants to stay married to you.

Dear friends:

I've been reading and reading and reading in this forum, in recovery, in divorcing...

There are so many BSs, who have the same problems as me. They can't tell their WSs "I love you", they feel that their M has taken a fatal blow, they can't forgive.

My H was away this weekend on a business trip and I had time to live without him. I missed him and had the time to reflect more on this situation.

When I met my H I broke up the 10 year relationship with my boyfriend, with whom I had been together since 10th grade in high school. I changed my whole life: moved to this country from Europe, changed specialties in medicine, left family and friends, but most of all: I left the man I had deeply loved. My reason for that and #1 EN was and still is honesty. My boyfriend was not exactly a chronic liar, but he would always tell me half-truths and leave me with wrong impressions, it was a character issue with him.

I thought my H was a different kind of man, kind, honest, loving. I felt like I had been send to show my H that there was one person in this world who truly loved him. Our relationship was built on trust, love and honesty. I took my wedding vows very seriously. I was faithful to my H all these years.

It hurt me a lot 10 years ago to take the step away from my boyfriend. I felt terribly guilty for leaving him for many years. He is married now and has four children. I am friends now with him and his wife.

I don't want to leave my H the same way, but the problem with his A hits right into my most important need. I can see that he is trying to rebuild trust. I know that I have to make the concious decision to allow him to get near to me again. I listen to every word he says, how he says it and I look at everything he does. I am hypersensitive to everything that comes from him. The slightest hint of a lie, of decreased effort makes me feel terrible.

His plan was not to ever tell me about the A. How could he be such a perfect liar??? I don't want to live with a liar again. I have done that with my boyfriend and it was hell, I broke up for that reason...

I have always told my H that if he wanted to be with somebody else, he should just tell me and I'll leave. Unfortunately that did not cover a situation like this one now. But even me saying those words in the past did not influence his decision to pursue the A.

When he comes back today I greet him with open arms. I'll try to not talk anymore of the A. I'll be loving, calm. I'll try to not even think about the A anymore (conscious decision!). I'll heed your advice, since everybody here thinks he is serious. I'll let him through that wall that I have built.

Let's see what happens...I hope our love and happiness returns. Wish me luck...

Dear friends:

I feel that we have reached the turn around of our recovery.

Yesterday my H returned from his business trip. He had bought me a present. When I unwrapped it I started to cry - I was so moved. It was a small statue of a family: a man and a woman holding their baby. The husband with his arms around the wife and the baby. It showed so much love of the man for his family. It is real art and it was done by the sculptor who made the Vietnam memorial in Washington.

I couldn't stop looking at it and crying. My husband was looking at me and I told him that I loved it and that I loved it so much because of what he wanted to say with it.

It all came out...that I loved him and that all I ever wanted in life was to be with him and our children. He held me in his arms and said that he loved me so much, so much.

Today we paged each other at the exact same time from work- what a coincidence. It was all there again, all our love, all our happiness.

Tonight we'll put the Halloween decorations on our house, go for a walk among the falling leaves and he'll hold me in his arms in front of our fireplace. The summer has turned into fall and now I want to think about the present and the future.

I'm so glad Liza. I didn't have a chance to write you because I've been so busy with my family. My precious INTACT family that survived the A! It is worth every tear I shed. My son just got bar mitzvahed- my H was up on the bimah- with his father- three generations. We truly treasure this moment- it could have been destroyed by the A.

there will be bumps in the road but you can navigate around them. Remember and treasure the fact that your H did not go that far with his A. Harley talks about resentment- remember you have less to resent than some on this forum. Hopefully this A was the wakeup call that will set your H's priorities straight! He realizes what he has- and you do too. Don't throw your H and father of your child away over a tragic mistake.

I know you are so scared. Especially in light of your previous experience with your old boyfriend. But I know the two of you can come through this.

BTW- what a beautiful gesture from your H. He GETS IT!

<small>[ October 14, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

Cool!!!!! - Love to say more, but If I fail another test, you will chew me out MEA is coming up. I can talk more then

Sunprincess! I felt that ICE melting a while ago, now I know its gone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU! This is so much better then hanging onto the hurt and anger. Once you give it to GOD HE truly helps. You will have a more meaningful and wonderful marriage then you can ever imagine now because you know how to make it better if you hit a few bumps in the road. GOD BLESS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Liza,

I am really happy for you. You're H does get it.

One of the other posters mentioned that the A was a wake up call for you H to get his priorities straight. I believe that is what it is. When my H was in the fog, he did not care about anything -- me, our house, our dogs. Prior to the A, those things had been the most important in his life.

Sometimes it takes a catastrophic event to really wake us up.

FHO

Dear MB friends,

sorry to report that we had another setback...

For the past two weeks I had really tried to make the conscious decision to let my H close to me again. My love for him returned strong but the trust and peace that came with it in the past were not there now. I felt very nervous and on the edge for many days...I was having almost panic attacks about the fear of loosing him or him lying to me again.

He tried to comfort me and show that it was right for me to love him again. I watched his behavior towards me very closely and -maybe it was just my perception- or maybe it was true: I felt that he was not trying all he could. He says he tried everything and I am just crazy. Right! I am going crazy over this. I don't know anymore what is right and what is wrong. I can't stand this emotional stress anymore. It is taking all my energy out of me.

Yesterday I said to him that this has changed me as a person. That I was not at all anymore like the strong confident girl he met ten years ago. His answer: one year ago (before his A) you were not like that either - meaning that he hated the way I was a year ago. I asked him what was the thing he didn't like a year ago and he would not tell me.

He has said at times that he can't stand the way I talk to him (LBs...when we have a fight)in the past and now. Now he hates it when I attack him about the A like last night. Before he was kind and patient, now he is very aggressive.

I am very sad today and I feel that this A has destroyed so much of our marriage. My life has lost its foundation. When my H is aggressive to me, I feel that he doesn't want this marriage after all. Yesterday he said that one of us had to leave now. I told him that I could not take it if he left, so I would be the one to go.

I don't want to give up on us. I know that I started the fight last night, but I felt that he was not giving our love all he could. I don't know what I should do now. Pack my things and move out? Try to talk to him? I don't know what is the right thing to do...

Liza,
Your posts imply that you are a physician. I too am a physician and I would share just a bit of my experience. If you are like me (and many physicians share this trait) you tend to be a perfectionist. While this is a tremendous asset to your career, it is probably not a good asset when interacting with your spouse. EVERYONE makes mistakes and no one is perfect. That was true of my marriage of both my wife and I. When mistakes occurred, even little ones I would find the need to "fix" them "to make our marriage perfect." With time this was a disaster. My wife came to loose self esteem, she felt should could not live up to my expectations. While we have never had to deal with issues of infidelity, mood and self-esteem were an issue. We too had what appeared to be "a perfect marriage" to outsiders. It was clear however that we had issues. I blamed it on her for not being able deal with her "shortcomings", when it was only after I was able to accept her as she was, imperfections and all, that we were able to heal. I would look at this as an opportunity for you to re-examine your interactions with your husband. He is not perfect now you know that, but neither are you. I wouldn't believe him when he states "nothing is wrong" (he is just trying to meet your expectations, he knows the consequences if he falls short). Even in healthy, well adjusted and loving marriages one individual cannot meet anothers needs entirely and there are always differences. As Tolstoy put it (I may be paraphrasing a bit here): "Marriage is not about compatibility, but how we deal with incompatibility".

I agree with ejs65 - My H and I both have some perfectionist tendancies that can get in the way of healing at times. You will have setbacks.It sounds like you had a painful argument. There are moments of good and bad in everyone's life. Take things more one day at a time and live in the present. Don't let your temporary emotions get the best of you and cause you do to something you'll regret. Accept your shortcomings and your H's because your M is worth the effort.

Thank you two for your thoughts.

Maybe I have not described it well enough in my post today...it is not that I want him to be the perfect husband. It is more that I think that he only partially wants this marriage and that is why he is not trying so hard anymore to build our love.

Before he would write me many emails a day, very loving ones. Now in the past two weeks I got one maybe every two days and they were two or three sentences. Yesterday we went out to our favourite bar and when we got out of the car he just walked away without looking for me. It feels to me that as soon as I make a step towards him, he gets lazy and changes his attitude.

I am very concerned that he is getting tired of working on the recovery and that he is lying to me and seeing OW again. Today we have not spoken with each other, there were no emails since our big fight last night. It still stands that he said one of us had to leave. I don't even want to go home today. I am afraid of his rage and coldness. Can he make me leave today?

Liza,
Have you considered counceling with the Harleys? I think you are one of the couples that could really make good use of it. I believe it would help you to really get to the bottom of what is going on, and help you cope with it. Please consider it.

I hope very much that you are ablel to work this out - for both or your sakes. We really do care.

SS

Hello IcePrincess,
How similar how situations are, almost identical in fact only my partner did go further than a kiss, not quite as far as sex but he may as well have. The only other difference is that I still desperately love him and really struggle to understand how this happened. Everyday i ask the questions why is this happening to me, how did i get here, how did our relationship get here??? We have always had (i thought) a fantastic relationship, he also tells me that he felt the same and there is no reason why he did what he did which in a way makes it harder to understand. I am young and attractive i hold down a great job, i am attentive and loving towards him i always put him first i am intelligent, yet it still wasn't enough. The hardest thing to deal with i find is that overwhelming feeling of rejection and the feelings of revolt towards him and myself. I want to hurt myself, i tried to hurt myself the ambulance had to come and take me to the hospital because i kept passing out and stopping breathing. WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY is all i can ask. Sometimes i feel so bad i feel as though i am really alone. The first couple of weeks after i found out were terrible. I had to take time off work because i wasn';t functioning, i was physically sick alot of the time, it is the most horrible feeling I have ever experienced. Having said all that i have to believe that he has told me all there is to tell and i have to believe when he gets on his knees and begs for forgiveness for this stupid stupid thing he did. I know he loves me desperately as i love him and i believe that our love is strong enough to overcome this. We had another bad night last night (as we still love together). Sometimes i feel really strong, other times i just crumble at nothing. I totally understand how you are feeling hurt, betrayed, your faith in him and the relationship has gone, you feel lost and no longer in control of your life. I feel for you because i am feeling the same. You have to remain strong though and not make any drastic decisions when you are at your most vulnerable. Everybody deserves a second chance to prove themselves and as much as you do not want to go through this a second time you have to have faith in yourself and in the relationship that it can survive this and be stronger because of it. We may never understand why they chose the wrong path, i believe that if you really know the person deep inside then your decision of where to go from here is mae a little easier. My partner is so distraught at the pain he has caused me which usually only comes out when i am having a bad moment. We have been intimate since i found out because i really needed to be with him and feel his love. I didn't want to move away (i tried that it only lasted 2 days) i wanted to be with him and work through what was going on but i don't want to be forever reminding him of his mistake, he is fully aware in his own mind and heart what he has done which i feel is punishment enough. If you loved your husband before this happened then you still love him deep inside, deep down past all the hurt and anger and pain if you know the man you married and loved then that will guide you.

Hi Liza,

I really don't have anything right now to offer except, I'm sorry for this turn of events.

I hope I'm right, but it may be a slump in the recovery process.

I like the suggestions of the setting up an appt with the Harleys. Would your H be interested.
I hear they have a very high success rate.

Have you two tried doing some of the stuff on the website such as the EN questionare, the POJA, (I think I have it right)

I hear all of that is very effective.

Hi Liza,

All okay?

Dear Liza,

Are you ok

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Gloria