</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hoping4best:
[Q]........When my W had an A, I was confronted with the forgiveness issue. In fact, in church this week, the pastor gave a sermon on this subject. Basically we are instructed to forgive "not 7, but 77 times". Basically, forgive as God forgives us. I felt convicted, because I questioned whether I am forgiving W and OM. However, the pastor added that we should not put ourselves in positions where we would be hurt.

In my mind, after going through this situation, I believe that forgiveness can come for ANYTHING. However, one thing people forget is that forgiveness usually comes with an expression of guilt and remorse. People cannot ask to be forgiven if they do not seek forgiveness. For example, if WS meets OP, comes home, confesses to BS, it is on BS's shoulders to choose to forgive. However, if this occurs repeatedly, no forgiveness needs to be given because there is no TRUE expression of remorse. This is where the part about not putting ourselves in position to be hurt is important. Forgiveness can be granted without an expression of remorse, but that is at the discretion of the wronged party.

I think that people who state that they would leave if the other person had an affair have not been affected personally by the situation.[/Q]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with your description of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not a right it is an extension of undeserved kindness. Not to be given to one who is NOT repentant. That is often forgotten and then forgiveness is expected.

When a WS returns home and 'expects' the BS to forget and forgive all, it doesn't work. Why? Well the right to forgive and forget is NOT within the offender's control. It belongs to the victim. It belongs to God. The offender can't demand forgiveness.

I hope your W can see the error of her ways. Until then continue strengething your inner person get ready to be able to lend a hand when she starts coming out of that hideous fog.

take care,
L.

Well, here we go again. W came home today...I thought she was going to stay somewhere in the area last night, but turns out she and OM drove 300+ miles to tell OM's sister of A. W also said that OM told some of the other friends of A on Friday (she told me they were going to be out of town, probably so I wouldn't contact them so OM could confess).

Anyways, I was obviously not happy about this, and probably LB'd. I thought she needed till Sunday to think things over and be away from the house, before I would tell all about this. However, she and OM use this time to tell everyone of A (not necessarily bad).

When we talked, I told W that I would tell the story of A. Basically, the truth (from my perspective). I didn't realize that this would be a huge Love Buster. She thinks that I am going to be vindictive by giving out personal information and that I will try to get all of her friends to hate her and OM. Basically, I think that they need to know the full story so they can come to their own conclusions and do what they want.

After the initial conversation, we had a much nicer one, but she ended up falling asleep as I held her. I went to bed in the main bedroom, but now I can't sleep because I'm somewhat nervous.

I had told her I was going to find a lawyer and a real estate agent. She seemed hesitant at this, but thinks this is what I really want. I'm probably going to contact lawyer tomorrow and make appointment for this week. We'll see about the real estate agent.

What's funny is that she said she explained to friends that she knew it was wrong, they tried to break it off, but couldn't, and they knew it was wrong. Don't know if this was LB'ing, but I said "Let me get this straight, you knew it was wrong, it is wrong, yet you'll throw away the marriage even though you have a chance to save it for something that you know is wrong." No response.

I gave another analogy to her. She said that if she could do it over again, she wouldn't have affair, but she couldn't quit now because of her feelings of love. I told her that feelings go away, and stated "If you are going to Chicago (we live near St.Louis) and you get on the road to Memphis, when you are 100 miles down the road, do you keep driving because you've driven 100 miles (comparable to feelings for OP)? No, you turn your car around and go to the right place." Probably an LB, but it's so hard not to do right now.

I love my wife. I want her so badly to do the right thing that this whole situation makes me sick. What seems so clear to me is like a foreign language to her. How do you bridge this gap in thinking? My problem is that I don't listen, and I judge before she can finish. It's hard to be pleasant all of the time (I feel I'm good most of the time) when this subject is almost all we talk about.

H4B~

Just checking in on you...

What's going on....how are you?

Thoughts and prayers to you....((((Hoping4Best)))

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm actually doing very well. I'm holding up just fine. The secret is now out, and they have no lies to hide behind anymore.

I talked with one of our mutual friends about this subject on Monday who OM told on Friday. This was one of the friends that W told me was going to be out of town. I made sure that he knew the whole story. Basically, OM told him that they knew it was a mistake, tried to break it off a few times, but couldn't, and that he would continue to date my W after divorce. W talked to him Saturday and told basically the same story. I told my friend that I hadn't received the message that the marriage was over.

I gave my story, which included more information than what he was told initially. I kept things in good taste, but I informed him of my suspicions, told him I even asked OM for help after W told me she was unhappy (I knew she was talking with him, why didn't I suspect that things would come to this), told discovery story, and explained that they are finally talking because I told her to cut contact or move out (in which case the secret would also be let out). Apparently, he was told that guilt was the reason for the revelation.

W is torn up right now. She's crying a lot now, and I'm trying to comfort her when she's around. She mentioned that she wanted to move back to her hometown with me (it's far away).

I'll definitely be okay...for now...

I'm so glad to hear you are doing well! I guess the truth WILL set you free, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In reguards to this part....
"I gave my story, which included more information than what he was told initially. I kept things in good taste, but I informed him of my suspicions, told him I even asked OM for help after W told me she was unhappy (I knew she was talking with him, why didn't I suspect that things would come to this), told discovery story, and explained that they are finally talking because I told her to cut contact or move out (in which case the secret would also be let out). Apparently, he was told that guilt was the reason for the revelation."

What is your wife saying now? Is she saying the marriage is over...she's moving on with OM or you?

Hang in there, you're doing GREAT!

That's the interesting part. According to my friend, OM and WW both told him that the marriage is over. Immediately after talking with him, I asked W about this.

Her reply contained no direction. This leaves me with two possibilities:

1. It really is over, but she doesn't have the nerves to tell me.

2. She truly is torn about what to do. She can't decide what to do.

I tend to think the latter is true. I don't know what the point of stringing me along at this juncture would be. She even did mention that this weekend, that was what she thought. She told me things have been really good, but she was worried that it was now a contest and my "plan A" (she's been following these threads <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) would end and things would go back to the way they were as soon as I won her over. I don't know how to convince her that I would not be here at this juncture if I was to win her over, only to let things regress again.

Still in limbo... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Have you talked to any of the Harleys about this? I'm sorry, but I don't recall reading that you had (could have been wrong).

Sounds to me like the time has come to go to plan B, personally.

I'm sorry to say...but it does seem like your WW is playing both you and the OM to see where she is going to get the best deal. There is going to have to come a decision for all your sake.

I know you are the better man. You are the true one, YOU are the MAN here. So, YOU are the winner either way. YOU have dignity, honor and you've given this love and marriage all. I pray your WW will come around and do the same.

Hang in there. Bless you~

(((H4B)))

Here's my update. I don't really know what is going on. This week, she got tickets from her work to go to a baseball game on Friday night, but when I asked on Thursday night what was going on, she said she wasn't sure. She had thrown out an invitation to a bunch of mutual friends, OM, and myself to go to this game. Only the friend that knows about A replied saying he was going. W said that she didn't want to go if it was the 3 of us going. I asked if she was waiting for reply from OM before she decided, and she said she thought he was going out of town anyways.

Well, on Friday, I had a work luncheon and had a few drinks with people from work (we all took the afternoon off). When I got home with plenty of time to go to the game, she was getting ready to go. She said that she was going with OM, a friend who knows, and a friend who doesn't know that was supposed to be going out of town with OM.

Understandably, I was upset. I told her that if she went, it was over. I had had enough. Then she became upset and panicky and tried to fix things. I told her that the only way to fix it was to call OM and have me go in his place. She said she tried calling, but wasn't able to reach him and offered to show me that she tried to call on her cell phone. She didn't want to make a scene about this at friend who doesn't know of A's house, so she goes after sitting in the garage for a while. After leaving she calls and is crying. She says she wants to work on us, and not to tell my parents, etc. (I had threatened to do this when I said it was over) and that we could talk when she got home.

She didn't come home until 1:30 AM, but the next day, she says that she really wants to work on us. After talking for a while, she went shopping and I went to family event on my side of the family. That evening, I got home and she had left a note that the friend who knows of the A called, but if we went out, to not talk about "us" (she would explain later). W was out with her family as they came into town.

Now, today, she is not so sure. She said that she thinks that the feelings would be there if she wanted it to work, so I don't know what's going on with her anymore. I was planning on going with her to visit her family, but I told her that I have other things to do today, and if she couldn't commit to me, I wasn't going. I feel bad for doing this, but I just don't know what to do anymore.

All I want are for these mind games to end. I can definitely deal with the reality of either side. I have shown her since the news broke that I am there for her, as I have consoled her several times. I cannot take the indecision anymore.

What also bothers me about this situation is how she does not see OM for what he really is, a complete and total scumbag. I sent him a confrontational email earlier this week, but he doesn't even have the guts to reply back. He's a coward and a liar. How can a woman find those traits attractive?

If your WW really is serious about working on the M, then she has to stop all contact with OM period. It's not my opinion but the experience of Harley and ALL of us that have been where you are, that in order for the M to have a future, that no contact forever with OP is a MUST period.

Since you don't have kids, implementing plan B is a lot easier.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What also bothers me about this situation is how she does not see OM for what he really is, a complete and total scumbag. I sent him a confrontational email earlier this week, but he doesn't even have the guts to reply back. He's a coward and a liar. How can a woman find those traits attractive? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only way that she will wake up and find out what kind of a man he is, is by letting him fill ALL of her EN's and that can only happen if you go into plan B. But if you wait until your LB is in the red, the you won't give a rat's a** about reconciliation and you'll be on the fast track to divorce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
<strong>
Understandably, I was upset. I told her that if she went, it was over. I had had enough. Then she became upset and panicky and tried to fix things. I told her that the only way to fix it was to call OM and have me go in his place. She said she tried calling, but wasn't able to reach him and offered to show me that she tried to call on her cell phone. She didn't want to make a scene about this at friend who doesn't know of A's house, so she goes after sitting in the garage for a while. After leaving she calls and is crying. She says she wants to work on us, and not to tell my parents, etc. (I had threatened to do this when I said it was over) and that we could talk when she got home.

Now, today, she is not so sure.
All I want are for these mind games to end.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hi, I haven't written much but I have been following your story, I have to say your wife is playing you, she knows how to act and the right thing to say to make sure you donot follow through with you "threats". you do not follow through with what you say you will do so why should she?IMHO when you say if you do X I will do Y, you need to make sure its something you will definately do, otherwise she learns that you are not so serious so all she has to do is cry a little and you will cave in to what she wants, that way she gets her cake and eats it too.
so you are both manipulating each other, only she wins and you don't and you are frustrated by that. you said if she goes with OM its over, really?it was just a "threat" you were playing her mind games. You need to stop this, either be willing to live with her till she makes up her mind or demand NO CONTACT or she is out. Either way, its your call what you are willing to live with.
My two cents.
hW.

I agree with happyW, ultimatums don't work and if they are not followed thru they'll backfire by showing that you do not have what it takes to do what you say you are going to do. This then makes the WS push the envelope to further levels of disrespect towards the BS until the BS no longer has any will of his/her own and becomes the ultimate doormat of the WS and OP.

If you are going to do something that you know you must do, then just do it. Just look at your WW, did she threaten you with having an A if you did not meet her EN's? of course not, she just went ahead and did it. And you must also do the same as far as your decision to remain married or not.

If you still want to save your M then you must be firm and state, NOT demand, your conditions (no more contact with OM and marital counseling) and she has to decide whether or not she wants to accept those conditions. If she still doesn't want to make a choice then you may have to go to plan B, to preserve your love and sanity, and have her OM fill all of her EN's (he can't otherwise she would have left you already).

(((H4B)))

HappyWife is right....she's playing you. Read back through. Every time she says she may want it to work, is when she's not quite sure where other man stands, needs to run it by someone, wants to be the first to tell HER version of the story...or wants you not to tell anyone.

She knows how to cry and work you. Don't threaten, follow through. She knew all along what she was doing with the game and every other event. WAKE UP...you are hanging in there SO tough....now decide what you want....and take that stand, don't be treated like this anymore.

You said it yourself, the OM doesn't even have a job, he can't meet all her needs, she knows it and so does he, don't be used.

You are the best choice, but if your WW doesn't make it, that's her loss.

Blessings~

It seems pretty clear that your wife is playing you for a fool and is clearly a cakewoman. I live in Nevada and she seems like a slot machine to me. She gives you just enough scraps to continue to play the game while she ends up with the best of both worlds having two men fight for her affections. She continues to humiliate and disrespect you as a man and a husband. I am afraid that it is you who is in the fog and in denial. She continues to be with the OM and stays out late with him and plays games with you.
If you could go back in the past and knowing what you know now would you still marry your wife? I am afraid she knows how to manipulate you far too well. The sad part is that you are willing to share and accept so little in your marriage. The bottom line is absolutely NO Contact to have any chance to rebuild. In short:
No consequences to her behavior equals no motivation to change. I think it is time for you to stop this on going soap opera and re-evaluate your marriage and your life. I wish you luck.

Thanks to all of you for kicking me in the butt when I 100% deserve it. I know that I've needed it and have been being stupid the last few days.

We actually talked things out today, no raised voices, no judgements, no angry outbursts from either of us. Just talking and really laying things out on the table.

She stated that she loves me and thinks I'm a great person, but that there were no feelings for me. She said she does things based on feelings, while I'm a thinker.

Basically, she put it this way. She listed me as having qualities of loyalty, honesty, successful, etc. and OM as having qualities of being fun and exciting to be around. Basically contrasting the two of us.

I think she knows that OM can't meet her needs. She's afraid of being on her own. This tells me that plan B is best way. I need some more kicks in the right direction.

H4B

Oh plan B WILL wake her up about how much 'fun and excitement' OM will be once he gets the job of filling all her EN's. She is very immature and will have to get bit** slapped by reality in order to see what she is in danger of losing.

Plan B will also destroy the triangle by taking you out of the picture. It will save your sanity and remaining love for her. Don't kid yourself that if she ends her A with OM for good and wants to truly work on the M, that it's going to be a piece of cake. You are going to need all the emotional strength at your disposal during the very fragile time which is the beginning of recovery, in order to make it. That's why plan B is so important.

Good luck and keep us posted.

I'm glad to have your advice. I'm beginning to think that the only real way for me to implement plan B is to move out myself. I think this is completely unfair to me because I did not have the affair, but it is probably the only way that it will work. I remember posting earlier that I would not move out, but I really don't see any other option. She doesn't appear to be going anywhere.

I talked with her again for a while, and I asked her if it was an exit affair since her reason for us not working is that she doesn't know if she can get her sexual and romantic feelings back for me. She said no. She says she really cares about him. But then I say how is it about him if she maybe wants to leave if it is only about getting feelings back for me. And the circle goes round and round...

I'm so frustrated with her and I feel like she cannot be reasoned with. I understand she is confused, but how long does the patience last?!?!?

Do you think leaving is what I should do?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hoping4best:
<strong>
Do you think leaving is what I should do?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well before I answer that question let me ask you the following.

If she doesn't want to leave and you don't want to leave, then how can plan B with 'it's no contact until you end your A and are willing to go counseling and committ to a marital plan of recovery' be possibly implemented? How is OM going to fill her EN's of FS if you are there paying her bills?

Forget about the unfairness of you leaving, it is already an unfair situation from the moment that she gave herself, body and soul, to OM. If she can't pay the bills then it's up to OM to help her out, and if he doesn't or can't do it, then it will be a huge love bust by OM to your WW. She will see first hand what life will be like without you to depend on and how life will be like with mr'fun and excitement'OM as her poor excuse of a financially responsible man. There's nothing like a toxic dose of reality applied to her R with OM, to cure her delusions of a happy future with OM.

So based on the above, I would think that the better choice under the circumstances, is for you to leave.

Thank you for your advice. I'm still mulling over things. I think I know what I need to do, but the timing is bad. Over this past week, WW's grandfather became seriously ill. Since we live so far away from her family, I had been trying to comfort this past week, while at the same time, allowing for some space. I didn't think that leaving would be the best decision last week since it was a time when she needed somebody. I don't know that she's been in contact with OM, so I really don't know what's going on in their situation. She hasn't committed to me yet.

She went home over the weekend to visit with her family and see how things are going there. I stayed at our house because I had classes all weekend. She'll be home this evening.

Hey H4B~ I sure am wondering about you? No word in a week now. Please check in and let us know how you are doing. Hoping the best for you.

Hugs and Prayers~