My husband and I have been married for nearly 8 years. I have 1 child from a previous marriage, he has none. We've never wanted children.

About 4 years ago our marriage started going bad, at least for me. My husband insisted at the time – and in fact, over the next 3 years – that nothing was wrong. But I could see he was withdrawn and moody and depressed. He stopped being affectionate, started losing his temper, started drinking more. I tried to talk to him many times but he always said nothing was wrong. Eventually I gave up trying and withdrew from him, thought I didn't love him any more but didn't want to go through the bother of a divorce.

About a year ago I was offered a job in another country (I’ve always been the primary breadwinner). We discussed it extensively before I accepted – it would mean him giving up his own job - but we both agreed that this was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that we couldn’t afford to pass up. After the move, my husband started acting worse and worse. He found a new job almost immediately after we moved, doing something he enjoyed. It involved a rotational plan, where he would spend 30 days working in another country and then 30 days back home with me. However, his behavior only got worse – he started drinking more, became even more depressed and withdrawn, sat around the apartment all day doing nothing but play on the computer and watch TV, and showed me very little affection or attention. When I would ask what was wrong, why he wouldn’t pay me any attention, he told me I was crazy – there was nothing wrong and I was imagining it all. And that only drove me further from him.

Then in April while he was at his work location, I started seeing some suspicious signs that made me question if he was having an affair. He was getting very secretive, would never tell me what he was doing in his off-time down at his new job. Large amounts of money were being withdrawn from his separate checking account. Other things.

When he came back home in June, he was again very depressed and non-communicative. I once again yelled at him for his behavior - same pattern. And then he said he thought he might want a divorce. That stopped me cold. I asked why, and he said I had made him into a person he didn’t like – that I wanted to control him and turn him into a puppet. That he’d given up everything for me – his career, his hobbies, even his own thoughts. His asking for a divorce made me realize that our problems had progressed to a critical point. I knew then that he must be having an affair, although he denied it.

His saying he wanted a divorce also made me (FINALLY!) realize how much I did love him and how much I wanted our marriage to last. The more we discussed the issue over the next week and a half, the more insistent he became that he wanted a divorce – or at least time and space to figure out what he wanted. But before he left for his next rotation we had agreed that we did not want a divorce and were committed to our marriage. We also set up a month-long vacation in August so we could have time to ourselves to work on our marriage.

During that last rotation before we went on vacation, I started snooping into his activities. The money withdrawals increased substantially, plus he also moved out of the hotel and leased a house, started learning the native language, talked about taking time off from work to learn to sail, buy a motorcycle. Sometimes I could convince myself that this was normal behavior, as I knew he was finding more friends down there, and especially since he spent 6 months out of the year in this location. But part of me continued to suspect another woman. What lulled me out of these suspicions were things he said – he loved me, he was committed to our marriage – and things he did – calling me, asking me to call him, writing more e-mails. During this time apart I became more introspective, started counseling, started working on me. I discovered there were things I was doing in our marriage that were wrong and destructive, and I told him and agreed he had some valid points. He seemed to take heart from my admitting this. But he never admitted that he had any responsibility for our problems.

We agreed that our vacation in August would be a time to rediscover our love for each other and talk about how we could fix our problems. Within the first day, however, he started acting distant and unaffectionate with me – not what I was expecting for a romantic holiday. When I confronted him, he said this trip was a last-gasp effort to save our marriage and that he gave it less than 5% chance of surviving and that he didn’t know if he wanted to stay with me or if he even loved me. That first week was pure hell, alternating between sullen silences, accusations and denials, and brief periods of truce. On the second day I discovered an e-mail from the other woman, although he quickly hid it from me before I could see the contents and insisted it was “junk mail”. But I knew. Several times I threatened to return home but he always convinced me to stay and keep working on saving our marriage.

Things turned around when we got to his family’s place, the second week of our vacation. Being around his family, he became a little more relaxed and happier. We went backpacking for 3 days – an activity we’d always loved – and he said that was the turning point. He said he’d decided he wanted to stay with me. When we left for my family’s home – the 3rd week of our vacation – I had high hopes for us. He’d started talking about buying land and doing other things to indicate we were going to be together forever.

These hopes were dashed though when we got to my family’s place. He started locking himself in the back room, withdrawing from me and from everything. I felt like the last week had never happened! So I got onto him again, asking for reasons why he was acting like this.

That’s when he told me he was having an affair, although he insisted on calling it a “situation”. Not only was he living with and supporting this woman (thus the reason for the house and all the money withdrawals and learning the language), but also she was pregnant with a child and that child might be his (he still doesn't know if it is).

I never dreamed I would react in the way I did – I always thought if I found out he was having an affair, I’d immediately leave him. But instead of telling him I wanted a divorce, I said I would overlook everything he had done if he would give her up and start working on our marriage. He refused. He insisted she wasn’t the issue, that it was the child, and that he couldn’t make a decision until he knew if the child was his. He said the idea of raising a child appealed to him and that it might require his taking the mother along with the deal. And that he couldn’t decide what he wanted to do because he didn’t know if he wanted to stay married to me. At the moment, he said, his marriage was still more important to him, but he needed time to think. I asked him to move her out of the house while he was thinking, but he refused and said that was not something that could be discussed. He did say that he might be asking her to move out within the first week he returned, but then again, he might not. Amazingly I agreed that I would live with this situation for as long as I could stand it and that we would continue as we were, with communication continuing between us during his next rotation and with our plans for him to return home the month after that.

Throughout this month that we were on vacation – both before and after the revelation – I continued trying to talk to him, understand what the problems were, and find out what we could do to save our marriage. Most of the times he would react with anger and long-suffering sighs. But I would persist and force him into what he called “Talking Marathons”. He hated them and said they exhausted him, although he did say several times that they had helped him in understanding me better. I would also ask him to show me affection when I didn’t think I was getting enough – to kiss me, hold my hand, have sex with me. Sometimes he would deny he wasn’t showing me affection, but I always noticed a distinct change in his behavior afterwards, as he would make efforts to be more loving. Our sex life in particular was wonderful, which surprised me – that I could still want him, that he wanted to have sex with me more frequently than ever, that it was so passionate.

I did consider divorce but decided I wasn’t quite ready to do something so final. One friend in particular made me realize that I wanted to stay married and convinced me to hold on. My husband said several things during that last week together – after the revelation – that gave me enough hope to hold on. That he valued our marriage, that he still loved me, that he didn’t love HER, that he was only thinking about this child and that once it was born the whole thing would blow over. But then he would say other things that made me despair – he didn’t know if he wanted to come back to me, might want to stay with this woman, might want a divorce. I said all the wrong things and in all the wrong ways – that he didn’t know what he was doing, that he was going through mid-life crisis, that this woman was taking him for a ride and just preying on a rich American using the oldest trick in the book, that he was naïve and silly. I thought I was giving him some hard truths that he needed to hear, and part of me still thinks that. He has no one to talk to except her and me – he would never dream of telling his friends or family.

I initiated actions before leaving the States to protect myself financially and position myself for a divorce if that became necessary. Before leaving, I separated our accounts, changed the passwords on all of mine, opened a new account in my name only and transferred all our excess funds into it, and retained a lawyer.

Since he’s been gone I’ve had very little communication from him. He sent me one e-mail when he arrived and then nothing for a full 4 days after that, despite several e-mails from me. I finally called him at his house to make sure he was safe. He was, although very nervous and guarded during our conversation, as I’m sure the other woman was hovering in the background. I have seen tremendous amounts of spending since he arrived– over $1000 in only 4 days. Much of it is at retail stores, as though he’s furnishing his new house and stocking up. All his actions indicate he has no intention of leaving this woman and that he’s setting up a new home there. I’m very suspicious that he’s been discussing a permanent job assignment there with his boss. Yet he continues to talk about the future with me – our plans for next month, for example. Why would he want to come home to me if it would simply mean another horrible time like we had last month?

So where am I now? I decided that this month while he’s away that I’ll act as though we are in this marriage for the long term and that I will not confront him or make any demands or ultimatums. I write daily upbeat (and very loving) e-mails to him with general news and gossip. I call him every few days and again keep the conversations loving and general in nature. Very occasionally I will get serious and talk (or write) about our problems, but always in a non-threatening way. For example, I came across the “Love Busters” section on this website and was floored to recognize myself using all of those behaviors. I also realized that my husband had been trying to tell me just that during one of our “Marathons”, and I’d vigorously denied it. So I sent him a note (with a copy of the LB section) telling him about my findings and how upset it made me to realize I was being so destructive and telling him I was sorry for not recognizing it sooner. He replied that he could tell I had been doing some thinking.

I’ve also set up counseling for myself. Hopefully he will join in, through the telephone while away and then in person when he comes home in October. Before he comes home in October we’re planning to spend a week on a tropical island, and I’ve decided to give myself that one week with him to let loose all our problems and just enjoy each other’s company.

But I’m finding it so very hard! I cry all the time – the slightest thing can set me off, even in a business meeting. I’ve lost 15 pounds (and I was at my ideal weight or slightly under to begin with). I can’t eat, can’t sleep, can’t think, can’t work. Every day I fluctuate between wanting a divorce to thinking “I can hold on a little while longer”.

I don’t know if I’m doing the right thing. Should I stop all contact while he continues to live with this woman? I keep thinking, he’s having his cake and eating it too, what could possibly inspire him to leave her when I’m so accommodating. (And a funny thing happened - he wasn't getting my e-mails for several days (glitch in the system) and initiated contact with ME - all on his own. Makes me think I should let him go...)

Should I have more honest discussions with him about my feelings and wishes? I’m afraid that will set him off – I just don’t know how to have conversations with him on this topic that don’t threaten him. He keeps telling me I’m trying to control his life, trying to tell him what to do, even when I just explain how I feel. He thinks I’m trying to manipulate him.

Should I ask him what he’s thinking? Again, he gets so defensive. He’s always hated these deep emotional conversations, even before we started having problems. Now he just wants to hide from his problems and hates my bringing them up.

Should I continue to encourage counseling? He refuses to accept any blame for our problems, insisting they’re all my fault. He comes up with such insane justifications for this affair and for his continuing to live with her that I think he’s lost his mind. He doesn’t seem to be able to think logically and rationally. I’m afraid of the decisions he’ll make while in this state of mind. I’ve suggested he talk to someone and gave him the number for a company-sponsored assistance plan we have here. He said he’ll think about it but has made no commitments. I’m afraid to even ask him about it, for fear he’ll think I’m trying to control him again.

I want to know what is the best thing to do to save my marriage. And if continuing to back off and love him is the best way then I need support so I don’t do anything wrong to undermine it. If I need to let go so I can save myself, I want to know that too. And I need something to help me, because I’m about to lose it!

Sorry this is so long - I keep thinking I need to put it all down, because so many people tell me I'm crazy for sticking it out, and I think I'm crazy for hanging on. But the whole thing is so crazy, and he's acting crazy, and nothing makes sense any more.

I’ve also set up counseling for myself. Hopefully he will join in, through the telephone while away and then in person when he comes home in October...


Very good move because both of you need it. Even if he rejects going to counseling, you keep on going.


But I’m finding it so very hard! I cry all the time – the slightest thing can set me off, even in a business meeting. I’ve lost 15 pounds (and I was at my ideal weight or slightly under to begin with). I can’t eat, can’t sleep, can’t think, can’t work. Every day I fluctuate between wanting a divorce to thinking “I can hold on a little while longer”.


Go see a doctor to prescribe you some anti-depressants.


I don’t know if I’m doing the right thing. Should I stop all contact while he continues to live with this woman? I keep thinking, he’s having his cake and eating it too, what could possibly inspire him to leave her when I’m so accommodating. (And a funny thing happened - he wasn't getting my e-mails for several days (glitch in the system) and initiated contact with ME - all on his own. Makes me think I should let him go...)


If he e-mailed you, it's probably because he wants to know if you have moved on.

If you do decide not to contact him, be honest with him and tell him that even though you love him very much, his present choices are causing you so much pain that for your wellbeing and for the love you have left for him, you need to stop all contact with him.

Should I have more honest discussions with him about my feelings and wishes? I’m afraid that will set him off – I just don’t know how to have conversations with him on this topic that don’t threaten him. He keeps telling me I’m trying to control his life, trying to tell him what to do, even when I just explain how I feel. He thinks I’m trying to manipulate him.


A WS in the fog likes to use the issue of control by the BS as justification not to work on repairing the M and to continue with the A. If he thinks that you are trying to control and manipulate him, ask him if he would rather not have any conversation with you.

Should I ask him what he’s thinking? Again, he gets so defensive. He’s always hated these deep emotional conversations, even before we started having problems. Now he just wants to hide from his problems and hates my bringing them up.

You've just answered your own question.

Should I continue to encourage counseling? He refuses to accept any blame for our problems, insisting they’re all my fault. He comes up with such insane justifications for this affair and for his continuing to live with her that I think he’s lost his mind. He doesn’t seem to be able to think logically and rationally. I’m afraid of the decisions he’ll make while in this state of mind. I’ve suggested he talk to someone and gave him the number for a company-sponsored assistance plan we have here. He said he’ll think about it but has made no commitments. I’m afraid to even ask him about it, for fear he’ll think I’m trying to control him again.


The harder you push, the harder he will pull away from you. Your H is not a child, despite the fact that he is acting childish, and you are not his mother. He has to decide whether he wants to seek counseling or not.

I want to know what is the best thing to do to save my marriage. And if continuing to back off and love him is the best way then I need support so I don’t do anything wrong to undermine it. If I need to let go so I can save myself, I want to know that too. And I need something to help me, because I’m about to lose it!

Read the books 'Surviving an Affair''His needs Her needs''Love Busters'(which you already have) and if you can afford it, counsel with the Harley's.

Sorry this is so long - I keep thinking I need to put it all down, because so many people tell me I'm crazy for sticking it out, and I think I'm crazy for hanging on. But the whole thing is so crazy, and he's acting crazy, and nothing makes sense any more.

You're not crazy. You probably beleive that inside the strange person your H has become, lies the man you met and fell in love with and you feel that you want to rescue him from himself. If you do then you've got to develop PATIENCE AND EMOTIONAL DETACHMENT to safeguard your love and emotional sanity.

In the meantime, go get counseling and read as much as you can regarding the MB principles and how to implement them in your life.

Please stay with us because there are other much wiser folks that can give you their views regarding your situation.

Good luck and God bless.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the support! I went out today with some friends 'cause I know I have to keep busy. But constantly had to duck behind bushes to hide my tears. It helps so much to come here and find an ear, some advice, some common sense.

Since my last post I called H and had a nice newsy talk. Then decided to let him know how much I was hurting and how I was feeling. He actually listened, I could tell he was hurting for me.

He sent me a long e-mail after phone conversation. Said he just can't make up his mind, wants to "wait and see" and hope that it all comes clear. He says he's not "motivated" right now to work on things with me because all the things that were destroying our marriage are still there, and it scares him. He says his "situation" (i.e. living with this woman) is not affecting his thinking about us. But he says he's also feeling pressure from every direction - I guess having her there and pregnant and not knowing if the child is his, plus having a wife who won't go away <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> - and that he wants to crawl into a hole and hide. And finally he says he loves me but doesn't know if we can get back what we once had.

When this all started - before I knew about "Her" - I got this brilliant idea that I'd do something romantic and crazy and fly down unexpectedly to see him for his birthday. That's next week. And now I can't - it gets me so sad, and angry, and hurt. I'm his wife! And I can't even surprise him on his birthday because his mistress might object!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> (And besides, how would we work out the sleeping arrangements? Who'd take the 2nd bedroom - me or her?!) I'm tempted to do it anyway and see how he'd handle it - force him into doing something, anything, just so I can move on.

Maybe someone can help me figure out whether it's time to put Plan B into effect. I'm Plan A'd out. And it's only been a week since I put it into effect full-force!

Your situation reminded me about another poster that found out that his wife had sex with another man, asking the rhetorical question 'why did she do this to me?' and saying how he did not abuse her or do any love busting during the time they been married. He said he could understand why a wife would have an affair if the husband had abused her or neglected her, but since that was not the case with his wife, he is bewildered as to what caused her to have sex with another man. He was venting that it was not fair, and it is not, and how could he trust his remorseful wife ever again? He said it's not fair.

Then it hit me. What happened to me years ago, and what's happening to you and most of the people here is very similar to an automobile accident. When an inocent motorist (BS:betrayed spouse) is involved in accident it could be for one of two reasons. The 'inocent' motorist, thru negligence, created the environment that made the accident possible OR the inocent motorist, thru no fault of his/her own, found him/herself in the wrong place at the wrong time. In both cases the accident should not have happened but it did and it happens every day of the year. You may or may not have contributed to the environment that made the affair possible, but the affair did happen. We more easily accept the unfairness of an inocent person dying on the road, than we do the unfairness of an inocent person being betrayed by the person who vowed to love and protect said person.

I'm sorry for the long post, but I wanted to point out how a lot of us BS's get stuck on the 'unfairness' of the affair because we fail to put it in perspective of the unfairness of life in general.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Maybe someone can help me figure out whether it's time to put Plan B into effect. I'm Plan A'd out. And it's only been a week since I put it into effect full-force!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I beleive I can help you answer that question by asking you, do you find that as time goes by your desire to save the marriage becomes less and less? and can you honestly accept the possibility that your marriage may end if you go into plan B? If the answer to both questions is yes, then you definetely should consider going to plan B to prevent the continued loss of your love for your husband and to take yourself away from the pain. A much wiser MB coach on this board, said something so true. She stated that many a BS(betrayed spouse) waits too long in plan A, that his/her love bank for his/her WS(wayward spouse)becomes totally depleted, that if the WS wants to come back and rebuild the marriage, the BS no longer wants the marriage and goes for the divorce.

It might help you to remember the old adage that says that if you love someone, set him/her free. Why would you want your husband to come back to you more out of fear than love? Isn't it infinitely better to have your husband come back to you because he truly loves you and is convinced that he is making the right decision?

Take good care of yourself and keep us posted.

Reading your reply made me stop and think. No, my desire to save my marriage has not lessened. And no, I'm not ready to accept that my marriage might end if I start Plan B. So I guess that means I keep on trying.... more Plan A. It's really hard, though, isn't it?

So given that decision, can I get some advice please? During Plan A: Should I avoid talking to WS about our problems (including mentioning the A and OW)? Should I avoid talking about how I'm feeling and how this is hurting me? And if I should be talking about these things, what's the right way to do it? He's starting to resist counseling now (after he agreed to do it only last month), so I don't see us discussing it then.

More questions: why does he seem to be withdrawing from me more and more? Why did he act like he wanted to save our M only 2 months ago? Why did he say at that time that we were in this together? And why did he say we were "together again forever" only 2 weeks ago? And now, ever since he's revealed the A, why has he been so dead-set against giving me any hope? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

SH94 please read the following, it's from the Q&A page: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

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But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the betrayed spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.
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So given that decision, can I get some advice please? During Plan A: Should I avoid talking to WS about our problems (including mentioning the A and OW)? Should I avoid talking about how I'm feeling and how this is hurting me? And if I should be talking about these things, what's the right way to do it? He's starting to resist counseling now (after he agreed to do it only last month), so I don't see us discussing it then.

More questions: why does he seem to be withdrawing from me more and more? Why did he act like he wanted to save our M only 2 months ago? Why did he say at that time that we were in this together? And why did he say we were "together again forever" only 2 weeks ago? And now, ever since he's revealed the A, why has he been so dead-set against giving me any hope?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H's withdrawl may be due in part because he considers your neediness as a control issue and not because you really love him.

One way for you to become attractive to your H is not to mention the A or the OW no matter how much you are dying to do so. When you do that what you are doing is showing yourself as a needy person in his eyes, and if you remember when you were a single woman, how much were you attracted to a man that showed himself very needy to you? Very few people are attracted to weak people. Don't seek your H out, let him seek you out and once he does, show him that you are a strong person that has not stopped living her life just because he was foolish enough to fall for a fantasy instead of dealing with reality.

Keep posting.

You're right! That's just how I've been feeling - needy!! And I hate myself for acting like this - it's not me. But I'm trying to change, use MB principles, and give my WS what he needs. Consistency, love, caring, demonstration that I'll always be there, no demands (i.e. control).

My instincts are to ignore WS when he acts like he wants to alienate me and push me away. I just want to let him get all his EN from OW. I want to stop the daily e-mails, stop the phone calls. Remember - he and I are apart this whole month, and he's living with her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

But then I think that I shouldn't push away. Plan A is all about being consistently loving and thoughtful and caring. To me that sounds like "needy" (I also see it referred to as "being a doormat".) but I haven't exactly been the most giving person in relationships.

I've read everything I can - SH's articles, just about every post there is. I really do want to do this right. But things just seem to be going downhill the harder I try.

What awful days these have been. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
Trying to stay busy and focus on myself, but can't get WS's last note out of my mind. His justifying the A, living with OW, as though it means nothing - no remorse, no guilt. But he still wants me to be there waiting, just in case he decides to come back. I keep wanting to end this. Will it ever get easier? I know I just started a true Plan A only a week ago. But I already feel like it's taking so much out of me.

Today I played sports with a group of friends. One of the guys brought his OW along (just like he always does) while his W sat at home. Never used to bother me before, although I always thought the both of them were trash. Now I can't stand to be in the same place as they. It hits too close to home.
And I see myself as that wife - knowing about the A and just sitting back, letting it happen, while H gets the best of both worlds. I'd always felt so superior to her, so smug in my M. And now I'm just as low as she is.

Can you tell I'm starting to feel like garbage myself? My WS has demeaned me and our marriage, and I'm letting him do it. That doesn't make me any better than him and his OW.

How do I get through this Plan A stuff when I can't even like myself any more? Is this normal? Does everyone get these thoughts? Does it get easier?

What is the point of doing plan A? Well let's look at it this way. If you accept the truth that love busters have destroyed the romantic love your WH had in you, then plan A is like an emotional workout designed to get you 'in shape' to the point where you will be strong enough to avoiding them altogether some time in the future when, hopefully he'll be back with you working on the recovery part of rebuilding of your M. But just like doing your workout at the gym, there will be times where you will be too tired to do the workout and a rest period will be necessary in order to regain your strength to continue. So if at certain times you find yourself to emotionally tired and your WH is trying to communicate with you, and you are not sure that you will be able to handle said communication with him without resorting to love busters, then it might be better to just not communicate at that particular time and wait until you are feeling better and in much more control of your emotions before accepting his communique. Avoiding love busters is hard work because we've used them since we came into this world, so it takes hard work and time to develop the mindset to avoid them altogether. BUT your reward is that you will be a person much more in control of your emotions and be able to carry out your constructive objectives without your emotions sabotaging all your efforts and sending you back to square one. And once again, remember that even if you and your WH get back together again, you will still have to do plan A for the rest of your life.

One more thing. Your WH's worst betrayal has not been against you but against himself. Despite your pain for what he did to you, you can at least look yourself in the mirror and not be ashamed of the person looking back. Can you honestly say the same thing for your WH?

Thanks, Coffee. I do so value your advice - it's always so pointed and cut-to-the-chase. No BS there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I had been delaying a reply to WS's note. I didn't feel up to composing a reply - didn't know what I wanted to say and was afraid it would come out all wrong no matter what. But I kept wondering if that was the right thing to do and if it would just reinforce his belief that I am always manipulating him and not showing any love. Your advice has fortified me - I agree that I should rest until I feel stronger and more sure of what I want to say.

I AM learning what I did wrong, how I used LBs to control WS and get my own way. I think I'm starting to work on those behaviors that damaged our marriage. (And by the way, also ended my first 3 marriages! I'm a long time coming to this site, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

My first counseling session tomorrow - hopefully more insight and more strength. Maybe I can figure out how to reply to WS note, or if I even shuld. God, it hurts to know he doesn't love me or value our marriage.

And now I have to get some sleep .... if I can. It's 1AM here in my part of the world.

I'm glad that my comments helped energize you and hope that your counseling tomorrow will further help you along.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
God, it hurts to know he doesn't love me or value our marriage.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know that this is entirely true. For one thing, if he truly did not love you anymore then why the h*ll is he still calling you? If he was so head over heals over the OW, then you would be the last person on Earth that he would want to talk to. So let's not jump to conclusions without having all the facts in.

When a person attacks another, the attacked person raises his/her defenses. Love busters are attacks from one person to another, and not only do they kill romantic love but trust as well. The last thing many a WS expects is kindness, compassion, and understanding from the BS, because s/he is convinced that the BS will instinctively strike back at him/her. So by the BS not love busting, the WS becomes bewildered and may start to feel bad for his/her betrayal. So in a way you are 'killing him with kindness' by not love busting his chops.

Help, support, set me thinking straight again! I'm thinking too much and starting to do crazy things.

I want so badly to go down to see WH at his work location and throw a dose of reality onto his idyllic little world. I know he&#8217;s escaping to this place and pretending the rest of the world doesn&#8217;t exist. He admits that he never even thinks about our problems or about me while he&#8217;s down there. How can he ever get over this fog he&#8217;s in and end the A if he&#8217;s so isolated from reality?

See, he works in this tropical paradise surrounded by other men in his situation (i.e. separated from families and living the &#8220;single&#8221; life every other month). The local people treat these men like gods. I&#8217;ve talked to friends who have worked in similar environments, and they say it&#8217;s such an ego boost to have these exotic women catering to their every need, stroking their egos, making them feel witty and charming and oh-so-masculine. And of course the women are all trying to get a foreign husband with money and a ticket to a better life.

So now my WH has got this OW acting like a surrogate wife &#8211; waiting on him hand and foot, dutifully staying at home and cooking and cleaning, and pregnant to boot! And he can pretend this is okay, because no one down there knows me or knows him as a married man. And everyone else (or some of them, anyway) is doing it and accepts it as normal.

I&#8217;m starting to obsess about this. I really am considering going down there and surprising him on his birthday next week. (What a surprise that would be!)

OK, OK - read me the riot act. I know this isn&#8217;t the way I&#8217;m supposed to act. I know I&#8217;m supposed to let him end the A of his own accord. But when I think about this, I start to go kind of nuts and want to shake things up. Can anyone PLEASE talk me out of it! We&#8217;re going on vacation in 2 weeks. If I can just hold out till then and not do anything stupid.... HELP!

Hi there,

My advice is: Don't go unless invited, and you probably shouldn't ask to go, either.

You need to learn the concepts here. Next week is too soon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orininally posted bySH94:
I asked why, and he said I had made him into a person he didn’t like – that I wanted to control him and turn him into a puppet. That he’d given up everything for me – his career, his hobbies, even his own thoughts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you show up without his consent or invitation, you would only prove the above to him. Further pushing him away.

As far as I can tell the general idea is to:

Plan A: Make yourself as pretty a picture as possible by Not Love Busting and in addition showing effort to meet WS's Emotional Needs. (Read Basic Concepts on the main site if not already.)

Plan B: No contact until OW out of pic. Plan B, according to Dr. H, works best if WS has nice memories of you showing effort to meet WS's EN's and no LB during Plan A.

I just simplified the concepts VERY MUCH, so ask more ?? and read the site.

This is the BIG PICTURE strategy, only, and not specific plan for you. Specific plan should be based on your individual needs, with a premium put on "safety first."

However, wanted to post, because if you LB now, it just could end up more work for you to do in the long run.

More importantly, you may want to think twice about the trip for now, or doing LB, simply to counter his current thoughts in the quote above.

-bbs

OK, OK - I give up! Uncle!! I'll back off, give him space, give him time. Despite the fact that I want to do something, anything, to get off high center.

Tonight I tried to call him. I don't know if he really hung up after seeing the incoming call was mine, or if it's just these darn international lines. But I'm pretty sure he hung up. I heard a woman's voice in the background just before the phone went dead. Then I tried to call again and got a voice answering service. So he doesn't want me to call in the evenings, at his house, with the OW present.

Sorry, Coffee, but I was acting needy again! Calling him at home was my first mistake - I really just wanted a reaction, wanted to show him that I could cause problems, wanted to make a point. Not a good reason to call. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Then when I started getting this answering service I left a message AND sent an e-mail asking him to call me. Too pushy, yeah, I know. I'm trying to control him by putting contact between us on my terms instead of letting him do the initiating.

I've talked myself out of all kinds of crazy reactions to his (alleged) hanging up. At least for now.

So I won't call again, let him set it up on his terms. Despite the fact that it's so bloody unfair! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

And I won't go down for his birthday. You're right, bbs, he has to invite me himself.

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SH94,

Believe me things will get eaiser. You have got to keep your cool though. I know, almost impossible. There were so many times I just wanted to do awful evil things to my H and OW to shake them back to reality (she knew my H was married and didn't give a s#@t!). It doesn't matter what you do though in their world I was this crazy insane wife. Well now, I'm not the crazy insane wife anymore, and recovery has been wonderful. I hope that gives you a little hope you just have to be patient. TooMuchCoffeeMan has given you some great advice here. I was just wondering does the OW know your H is married? And if so does she not care? And if not have you considered telling her?(not that I'm suggesting that I'm just curious)

DU

"I was just wondering does the OW know your H is married? And if so does she not care? And if not have you considered telling her?(not that I'm suggesting that I'm just curious)"
I've been asking myself the same question, DU - does this OW know??? One of the reasons I wanted to visit WH was to make SURE she did, along with his co-workers and drinking pals. Like I said, I wanted to introduce a reality-check into their Shangri-La world.

But you guys have been telling me "don't lose your cool". That's been my anchor - I vent and yell and scream in my journal and to my friends and here on this site. But I keep the crazy knee-jerk emotions (or most of them anyway) hidden from my WH. All I want him to know is that I'm here, I'm working on me and on us, and that I love him.

So new update.... and reason I'm awake (again!) at 1am.
WH called me just now! He had been out to dinner with some friends and missed my call. Guess it was those phone lines after all!
He said he was worried about me - my last note was so depressed (it was??) that he had been expectng me to call. He told me he appreciated my sticking by him and could tell I was trying very hard. He asked about my counseling session and wanted to know whether it was by telephone (is he starting to think about phone counseling for himeslf?). He never initiates talk about these things - this is a huge difference in his normal topics. And I got the impression that he had expected this call to be the one saying "good-bye, Charlie". Was that surprise I heard in his voice, that it hadn't been my intention?

I'm trying so hard to keep my hopes in check. I want to believe it's more than just friendly concern on his part. That maybe he's starting to come around and believe me when I say I'm here for him. But I try to be realistic and tell myself that it's still a long, long road ahead - don't expect instant miracles.

After we hung up (or rather, the phone lines went dead on us), I had to rush in here and tell everyone: Thank you, thank you, thank you for counseling me to keep my head and stick to the Plan. Don't know if I'm interpreting his call right, but I'm hoping!

Will keep y'all posted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It just never ends! Only this morning I was hopeful and almost happy. Now I'm about to LB big time and confront him about some things I've discovered.

I've been monitoring his checking account and credit cards. My reason for doing this? So I can tell when he's lying to me, of course. Or rather, since he never tells me what he's doing (and I'm too afraid to ask), I want to get a heads-up in case he's doing something behind my back. It's self-protection.

Anyway, he's been spending a LOT of money. At first I chalked it up to his moving into this new house, and he (or maybe OW) furnishing it and getting utilities and stuff set up. Of course, my imagination also went into overdrive and I wondered why someone who only lives there part-time needs to spend THAT much money. Especially since the place is already furnished and utilities are included! But I consoled myself that there were legitimate reasons - TV's, phones, rugs, washer/dryer, baby crib.....

But now I'm about to go ballistic again. $900 cash withdrawal just yesterday!!!! What is that for????? That makes $2000 in only one week in just cash w/d. And then credit card purchases of nearly $1000! What's going on??? Am I being a fool? Is he setting up a life down there and not telling me? Should I ask him for an explanation? And if so, what's the right way to do it?

This is really undermining my determination to hold on. I can't take thinking he's doing things behind my back and using me. I'm imagining that he's working on making this position down there permanent, and only using me as someplace to go until he can get his plans in place. Isn't this something I should know? Why should I continue to go through this torture if he's made his decision?

I'm just so down and depressed and angry and confused right now. And I will try to hold off calling him or writing him till I get more control over my emotions.

Called WH to ask if he's planning to set up permanent residence down there, if he's made or even thought of this plan, and is he just using me until he can set that up. I was calm and matter-of-fact about the whole thing. He said no way, hadn't even considered it. Maybe it is just his stupid motorcycle. Or maybe he's setting up OW's whole d**n family in condos - make himself look big in their eyes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Is this how moving into Plan B starts?

I'm starting to think I've done as much as I can on my part to change - I've been Plan A'ing (without knowing I was doing it) since mid-June 2002. And Plan A by the book since Sep 1st. I'm starting to feel like I've proved to myself that I can and have changed.

And I'm losing all respect and admiration I had for him. Now when I think of him, how he's acting - like some kid in a candy shop, a whining spoiled little boy - my stomach knots up and I feel almost disgusted. Ashamed that I'm married to someone like this. I used to think he was a *MAN*. For 7 years I thought he was my anchor, and that I was the unstable one. And I honestly believe he was. He's just gone middle-age crazy.

I'm not ready for Plan B yet. Especially since I keep remembering one thing he said - I'm not fun any more. ME!!!! Everyone thinks I'm the life of the party, the good-time girl. Except him, apparently. And he's right - I haven't been fun around him. Mainly because he's always depressed and withdrawn and cranky himself! But never mind that. Oh, no! Never do to blame HIM would it??!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Is that a good reason to stick with Plan A a while longer? So I can get together with him in Oct and show him the fun times are still there? Make sure that impression, along with my change in attitude towards relationships and M, is the last thing he remembers?

All he associates with me now is pain and hard times. Long excrutiating talks about marital problems, crying, etc, etc. And I know he goes out with friends down there, drinking, having fun.

I found it helped me by setting up a strategy with my own timeframe. Made me feel more in control. Tell me - does this make sense? Get together with him for a week and half of stress-free, fun vacation. No (and I mean "no") pressure, questions, whining, crying from me, even if he acts like a total jerk which he will. When he comes home for the next 3 weeks, try to get him to C. In between set up lots of fun activities, Plan A him to death. And then give him 1 week to go back and make changes down there, see if he has changed. Else - Plan B. Nov 1st.

Does any of this make sense? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />