Okay.

<small>[ September 19, 2002, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: TimeToHeal ]</small>

OK, TimeToHeal - I can tell my Dr. Phil approach failed for you.

I'll not try again because you have your mind made up.

Good luck.

WAT

Hi TTH,

I think WAT is a nice guy who has been through a lot of heartbreak like many of us here.

For the last two months (after d-day in the beginning of July) I have always felt that my H's A wasn't my fault. I wasn't a good wife, no I was a great wife. He told me that and also that the A was caused by other factors (severe depression being the # 1 cause).

I thought and wrote a lot about this concept that there is always the BS at fault, too (and I got busted by WAT once).

What really helped me was this article:
oops, can't paste it here. Check it out in my thread here under "Just found out" on the bottom of page 4.

It's about other factors that cause As.

Good luck to you and all the best

I never said I had my mind made up about anything.

The fact is Worthatry is that you have completely misinterpreted everything I've said both in my first post and second one. All I was doing in my first post was offering my opinion and asking simple questions to a larger audience, like everyone here does. However, you seem to have a problem with the way I came across and I'm sorry you feel that way.

I appreciate that you are wishing me good luck with my endevours but my suggestion is not to compare yourself with Dr. Phil, he is an expert and I have listened to him many times. I do appreciate any advice and reading other's stories and some of the rules were good but others were not, in my opinion. We all have a right to our opinions, right? but I don't appreciate having my opinion shot down and misinterpreted.

IcePrincess -
I just wanted to say thank you for your kind words. I'm just trying to get through this the best way I know how. Maybe its wrong or maybe its right, who knows but I don't think I'm in denial, I'm just really confused! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I read your post as well. You're H was right to tell you about his attraction to this OW. I can tell you may have God and religion in your life from your post, is that right? That's good because sometimes I think that's the only thing keeping me together and it will keep you together too...it will. That's all I have right now. At least you didn't find pictures like I did while on the phone with my mother. (Bam, like that was SO in my face! Hello, my H is having an A with his co-worker! Ouch) But our families don't know yet, don't want to break our family apart.

Worthatry -
Okay, maybe we did lash out at each other. The thing is we are both hurting and I just want you to know I'm really trying the best I can but he needs to try too. A sin is a sin but I have asked God to forgive him if you can believe that. We only have our 1st appt with a MC tonight so we'll see how it goes. (and the thing I said about Dr. Phil, sometimes I don't agree with him either even though he's an expert and sometimes I think he's the smartest man alive).

TimeToHeal,

You don't have to like the principles put forth by the Harleys or any of the opinions offered by the contributers here. Nobody here needs your approval.

I'd suggest that when you ask for help and you get a response from one of the most respected people around here who has been here for at least 2 years and has helped an innumerable army of people with his 3000+ posts, you would do well to read and give serious thought to what he has to say.

<small>[ September 17, 2002, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: o2bsane ]</small>

TimetoHeal,

You haven't been here very long. YOu don't agree with Plan A so why are you still at this site? If you don't believe in the principals stated here, then why read & post. Or have you read this site any at all.

Plan A will led you to recovery, it might not recover your marriage but it will & can led to personal recovery. A recovered marriage can only happen if you have personal recovery. Personal recovery happens when you FACE what you have done to cause problems in your marriage and change those behaviors. Plan A is about making YOU a better person.All BS have done something, it maybe nothing to you but it will be something to your WS.

My STBX blamed all of our problems on me for over 3 yrs, it is just now that he relazies that I was not the cause of his unhappiness that he had the problems. Anything that was wrong with our marriage, we were both at fault but we could have worked it out. Because it took him over 3 yrs to come to this realazation, we are close to divorce, he has no retierment left, I have less than what I should for my share of it, our sons have suffered and I could go and on.

If you have the attitude that you have done nothing that caused your WS to have an A, and that your WS needs to do all the work then you will not recover your marriage

Your repsonce to WAT was very rude. YOu don't know him or his story. He has one the most wonderful personal recovery stories I know. He has been through more than most of us here. Without his constant daily, sometimes hourly, support in the spring of 2001 I'm not sure where I be today.

Time to heal,
Welcome to MB, and I hope you find what you need here. I believe you will, if you look. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It stinks that many of us are here because our spouses were unfaithful, but many of us that have been here a while have learned that we CAN LEARN AND GROW, and become stronger and better people through all of this. You can survive!!! And we'll do everything we can to help YOU help your marriage survive as well.

First, why did you choose your name? If it's because you know that you need time to heal from this crisis in your life, you are right. I might suggest that during this time, you might decide to listen, learn, absorb, and trust, while you have time to digest and work through the raw emotions you are experiencing.

I believe that what Worthatry was trying to convey to you was that your H's A was NOT your fault. He chose to do it, and it was wrong. But all of us BS's have to realize that we DID contribute to the state that our marriages were in when the A happened. We all need to face our own faults... the things we could have done better in our marriages, and make needed changes in ourselves.

Now, I'll try to address some of your points:
1. I'm glad you've gotten some helpful advice here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> There's plenty around! Keep in mind that we all have different opinins and experiences, and none of us are trained professionals. I hope you spend lots of time reading the MB site, in addition to the forums (the Harley's are professionals).

2. Of course you know that we all sin, and WAT was trying to help you figure yourself out, instead of remaining focused on your H's sins. It was a hard pill for me to swallow when I came here. I thought I had been a wonderful wife, and there was no way my H could EVER think of cheating. I learned that I wasn't the "greatest", and that my H wasn't exempt from the temptation of adultery.

3. No answer is really necessary here. You'll think the same of my signature line. You are more than welcome to dig up old posts of WAT's, or mine, to see the journey we experienced.

4. "can men can go out and get their fix and we expect the wife to forgive and forget and not be angry?" Of course not. You have every right to be angry! Absolutely! What your H did was wrong. We agree with that. But let us help you focus on something that will actually help you move forward in your healing. k? We want to help you along the path of letting go of the blame, and the pain.

5. Hold on to your faith and hope dearie.... hold on....

<small>[ September 17, 2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</small>

I appreciate the feedback that I've received. However, please don't tell me I'm not taking the time to listen and actually read the posts when some of you aren't really reading into mine. (this is to o2bsane and sing) and tell me again why I need to agree with Plan A in order to post and read this site? You make no sense because even Dr. Harley indicates it doesn't work for everyone. Please don't make things up that aren't there, okay?

For starters, I'm pretty sure I mentioned the fact that I've rec'd a lot of good advice and stories of hope on this site already even though I'm "new". I've really been inspired by some people's stories and their feedback. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Certain people thought I was being rude to Worthatry because I was the first to offer a different opinion on what I thought about some of the rules. Go back and read my first post and then read the post he sent directly to me. Have any of you actually done that before reading my 2nd post to him? I'm sure he's very nice and I see that's he's been through hell which makes him a strong person inside and I'm sure he's been a great inspiration to some but I didn't appreciate the father-figure response. That's not the kind of response you give to "help" someone, it only makes them feel worse about themselves. Sorry that I'm not a follower but just because someone offers a different view doesn't mean they're not listening or that they don't deserve to be here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The problem I see here with other posts I'v read is that when someone offers a different opinion from the majority or seems frustrated because of the issue at hand, others play the blame game and decide that the individual is not good enough for this site. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I'm pretty sure there was something wrong with what I did in the marriage, maybe I did a lot of things wrong, maybe my H did. We just started counseling so we haven't gone that far yet, so give me a break, please! I'm sure we'll soon learn what caused the infidelity but its too early to make assumptions now. Did anyone ask how long I've known about the A or how long we've been seeing a counselor? No. You just assumed I had already made up my mind and that was that. No questions asked. All I was looking for was answers just like everyone else, that's it. Some of you were very kind and understand my point and some of you need to lay off before you start making up facts.

As far as I'm concerned there are those on this site that are very understanding and offer encouraging words of wisdom and hope, and those who are hypocitical. I don't need that right now. If my opinion or views differ from others than that's too bad. I never was asking for approval (like o2bsane seems to think) or said I didn't like any of the principles here. I've learned a lot of things about infidelity in the short time I've been here but I don't have the energy to deal with the hypocrits on this site. I'm very hurt about how I've been misinterpreted and I just don't need it. I think I might continue to read the site but not post. Because anything I say is going to be turned around anyway. Thanks a lot.

TTH,

Well things may have started off on the wrong foot but at least you are still standing. Good!

Now I would like to share a few thoughts and experiences. I have personally been at MB since Jan 2001. At first my posts were well pitiful. I was in so much pain, I wouldn't even want to answer to my threads!!!! I had nightmares and panic attacks. I had great responsibilities at work, home, to my child, school, other external family issues, health problems (had a miscarriage previous year and then another one later - YUCK!).

Anyway what I did bring with me was a bit of stubborness. Through my pain I had help. It was not always gentle but it was help. Often it was bitter medicine. Many of my friends, workmates and supporters (including relatives) wanted me to dump the bum...... MB people here offered support. You must realize that this was not all nice stuff. Worse than what I have read written to you. Bramble Rose and a few others gave me a thrashing. You know why??!?! Because I was not focuing on how to heal, I was focusing on the A and insisted on fixing it. Everyone else could see the diasterous course I was taking but I stubbornly kept on that course leading to disaster.

For many of the new ones here that is what some of us longer posting ones see. In our own way, we are trying to help you avoid some of the pitfalls. One of my benefits was that I listened to some of their stories and learned from some of their mistakes. I took the barraging not as a threat but as constructive criticism. It paid off.

You know the day I realized that plan A was not about dissolving the A and about helping me heal, was a day that a great weight came off my shoulders.

Some of these old timers might seem a bit 'grouchy'. Well they have been through a lot. Wat has lost a son (due to a lenghty illness), Sing had to deal with the A while being overseas (while the WS paid rent for OWs housing), many false recoveries and enduring pain. O2bsane endured much also.

But through all our pain, is hope. Personal recovery is within your grasp, Marital recovery will depend on both you and the spouses' equally contributing.

I ask you to please, step back and see what those posts are really saying. We don't want to see another BS suffer, it is too painful. Sometimes how we say it is harsh because we so want the pain to stop. I am sure you would wish the same for others.

In the defense of the 'reverse babble' techinique, I must say that at least those posts showed us that you are a fighter..... good. Now let's channel your energies toward making you a better and stronger person. You have no idea how much more is ahead. (You want crazy stories, I can fill your ears about PBR - psyco babble rabbit - the constantly prego ow who never has a baby - LOL!!). I can laugh now but you should have seen me last year.

Right Wat and Sing?

Oh one more point., last year during one of my down epsiodes, Sing graciously sent over the LB Fairie to dump a load on her......... it gave me an emotional relief. It was a bunch of words right here on MB but the just the ability to laugh was healing. Wat helped me a lot last year. If I was ever on a boat, I would want WAT as my captain. For reals!

Here at MB we have a 'warped' sense of humor. You have to....... who else could survive this and still come out smiling??!?!?
Well some do but it sure helps to have this place.

Your opinions are always welcomed. Just know that others have theirs also so the give and take will eventually balance out. One thing I learned here, I learned how to get a tougher skin but still be subtle.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

take care,
L.

<small>[ September 17, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The fact is my H was thinking with his "johnson" when he had the A, bottom line. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a guy, and I have read here and elsewhere extensively, and I can assure you this is untrue. Until you understand the emotional power sex has for a man you will not understand your husband (or be a great sex partner, either). The unhappy, painful, implication of this is that the affair was not "just about sex" no matter what he believes or says. It was about feeling loved and/or accepted and/or admired. For a significant percentage of men there is also the conquest thing (feeling of achievement?) If you do not delve into the emotins behind the actions, you will never understand any of the why's. Furthermore, he may not be able to tell you, either, even if he wants too. For more on this subject I recommend "The Sexual Man", by Archibald Hart

I did not read your other posts, but I know the questions of self-doubt and blame that go with starting to work through Harley's stuff. You may find "Torn Asunder" more helpful, though in the end, it has a very similar approach to SAA. Sort of a different point of view of the same things, I would say. The position in SAA that not meeting important emotional needs is the reason people are vulnerable for an affair is just not always he case. According to our MC, who worked with Bill Harley for 8 years, about 80 percent of men who have affairs (and a very small % (like less than 1%) of women) would do so even if their spouse was doing a GREAT job of meeting their EN's. Harley actually does recognize this (See How to avoid an Affair for an example), if you get deep enough into his work, but it is really easy to read him as blaming the BS for the affair. However, the fact that unmet EN's are not the only reason for an affair is also implied in his conditions for recovery in SAA - simply meeting each other's emotional needs is not enough. There is also Time, Honesty, and the POJA. If the BS was always to blame, the BS could just give the WS the ENQ, work on meeting their needs, and everything would be hunky-dory. It ain't that simple.

That said: I had a spouse who called me "The World's Greatest Husband" in front of family, friends and the OM. Said "I Love you" to me regularly throughout our marriage, including during the THREE YEARS of her affair. Never was in love with the OM, never wanted to leave me. I read books on marriage, and tried to put the principals to work. Didn't LB much. Was a stay-at-home dad and did ALL the domestic stuff. Sat with her for 15 minutes every night she was home for dinner, talking to her about her day. Said "I love you" frequently, and meant it. Many, if not most, of her female friends were jealous of her for the way I treated her. So, I am the poster child for "Don't blame the BS." And yet...three days after DDay, we took the ENQ. I got -3 on her top two emotional needs (both of which I was completely unaware of). Would not have guessed they were in her top 5, and had never really tried to meet them.

So... don't dismiss the Harley approach because it makes you uncomfortable. Unmet EN's are no excuse for an affair. There is NO excuse for an affair (as Harley says repeatedly). But... most affairs contain a message. You need to listen to that message. I also found out some helpful things by going over her sexual history and how she felt about it - something not suggested much on this board, but there IS a Personal History Questionaire in the Questionaires section.

And - listen for the emotions behind the words. The words will sometimes be painful. Try to get to the feelings behind them.

Dear TTH and MB friends,

To MB friends:
people, I have a hard time reading many of your posts to TTH. What is your intention? Everybody here is hurting, sad, in a life crisis.

Do we have to make it worse by writing posts like that? TTH is here because she is desperate and she can't understand why this A happened.

When I first came here I felt the same, maybe I chose different words to talk about my feelings, but I received a lot of support from you wonderful people here. You helped me in the darkest hours of my life.

Now - one point I would like to make- sometimes maybe in 1 in a hundred affairs the BS is not at fault. In my case that was so (H honest opinion, counselling results, two months talking about everything). Please give it the benefit of the doubt that sometimes there may be BS who has done nothing wrong and for whom it is really difficult to deal with the A because there is nothing that can be easily addressed and changed.

I think we should support each other here and with cautious words encourage a BS to look long and hard for any faults that can be improved to improve the marriage.

But also accept it and offer support when someone says that they did not contribute to the A. It is a very painful realization that you were a loving wife and there were other factors that caused the A. It makes you feel powerless and sad.

Please let us support each other here. Understanding that people write when they are experiencing strong, extremely painful emotions.

When we write something in response, maybe read it a couple of times before posting to see if it is going to hurt someone. We should not hurt each other because everybody here has been hurt enough already.

To TTH:
All above and -if you want- you can email me at Iceprincessmail@yahoo.com.

I'd written an entire response and let it set for a day.

Later, when I thought about it, I realized that I have no place in the argument.

<small>[ September 19, 2002, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

Dreaded double post.

<small>[ September 18, 2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

TimeToHeal - after thinking about this a few days, I appeal to you to explain what you thought about the Guidelines was bull$hit? You may be like other new betrayed spouses who may react similarly and I (we) should take advantage of your candor to see if we can improve.

In short, help us do a better job helping others.

I communicated to you in the manner I did because I was frustrated. I thought the guidelines were clear and convincing and would be self-explanatory, but they must have been either confusing or somehow unclear to you. In response to you I chose an alternative communication method that failed miserably.

Now I recognize the opportunity you have presented us.