I beg to differ with you Sue with Hope...I feel that alot of men are only staying because of threats of custody battles and the not being in thier childrens lives full time. Some because of alimony. I know that plenty of men would leave in a heartbeat if it wasent for the kids. I have children myself and I would never think of taking a backseat to his, children always come first and about the money she can have it and mine too. That is not what this is about. There are lots of mixed emotions when you find yourself in love with someone other then your wife who you love, and to disregard those emotions as a FOG is assinine. They are real, and people do get hurt.

All I can say is my H's OW was shocked to find out I was sleeping with my husband. He had lied to her and told her we weren't intimate. What did she think- the man that was lying to me and betraying me wouldn't do the same to her?

The affair represents pure selfishness on the part of the WS. Sure our marriage was bogged down like many others. My H was a workaholic, had devastated our finances with bad investments, had a job that required weeks of travel. Everything was dumped in my lap- raising the kids, disciplining the kids, every school event, and right before the A, managing a renovation that had our house in shambles. Not to mention handling bill paying, finances and taxes. Yes, it is true that by the end of the day I wasn't the most cheerful companion, stroking my H's ego. I suppose he could have said our marriage was "dead". And I can say, if he had treated OW in the same way he was treating me, their relationship too would soon have been "dead".

But, since he took her for several romantic, relaxing getaways, it was easy for her to be whatever he was looking for. After all she wasn't dealing with the 3 kids, looking at the bank statements with the huge investment losses etc. And since my H was on his best behavior with her I can say emphatically that she didn't fall in love with the man he is. She fell in love with a lying phony.

The good news is that my H realizes this now. He is so thankful that we are together as a family. He is much more involved with our children. He backs me up when there are discipline issues, when he used to undermine me. He has realized there is value in setting limits. He actually makes time to do stuff I like to do, and socializes with me. We are not all there yet, but we are on our way.

If my H had gone with the OW, I pity her for the man she would have gotten. She would have gotten the ultimately selfish, immature and amoral man. My H is the first to say that his MLC was about him growing up and learning to make the right choices in life.

If I were you, I would tell your adulterer, er MM, to take a hike. If he shows up on your doorstep someday AFTER the divorce (with NO CONTACT in between) that's another story. I hope you don't resent the advice. If you post on TOW, you can get a gallery of OW cheering you on and even giving you tips on how to get your MM to dump his wife and family for you. That won't happen at this site.

<small>[ October 17, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mosana:
<strong>I feel that alot of men are only staying because of threats of custody battles and the not being in thier childrens lives full time. Some because of alimony. I know that plenty of men would leave in a heartbeat if it wasent for the kids. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you feel to be true and what is actually true are two different things. You are trying to find unrealistic reasons for WS staying with BS. If an individual is truly miserable then they get to a point where money is no longer an issue and they know their kids will be happier with two happy and divorced parents than with two, married and miserable parents. What someone says they'll do in a 'down point' in their lives and what they actually put into action are, again, two different things. Most will 'talk the talk' but won't 'walk the walk'.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mosana:
<strong>
I have children myself and I would never think of taking a backseat to his, children always come first and about the money she can have it and mine too. That is not what this is about. There are lots of mixed emotions when you find yourself in love with someone other then your wife who you love, and to disregard those emotions as a FOG is assinine. They are real, and people do get hurt.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, the BS can have his money and yours??? Don't tell me...the two of you will live on love. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> What's assinine here is the belief that infatuation is love; that the fantasy (with no bills, demands, laundry etc., etc..) is a realistic version of love and committment (it's not!). It's assinine to believe that a WS who decieves their BS won't decieve the OP. It's assinine to believe it's ok to hurt people to selfishly get something we want, just because we want it and believe we deserve it.

<small>[ October 18, 2002, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: mgm ]</small>

Maybe you can understand this - originally I stayed with my H because of the kids. Things were getting to a point where I was totally miserable, thinking I didn't love him and I could not stay with a man I did not love. When I called the attorney to inquire about divorce, I was devasted. I was torn up. I realize at that moment, that I LOVE MY HUSBAND, and a divorce is the last thing I want. Chances are that if he was given a choice between you and the W, he would pick the W, and it is because he loves her. That is why he has not left. You can argue all you want. It boils down to he has not left because he wants his family.

Dear M,
I too am a BS, and all the comments that have been given to you are true. Take heed to the advice, protect yourself from future pain. The people that have responded to you are telling you truth, from a sincere heart. Find someone who is single and available, who will care for you as God intended. Let the MM go, let him recover his life with his family. I will pray that Our Lord has mercy on you, and those involved. That he would give you strength and wisdom to do what is right, and that he receives the glory. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mosana,

I am also a BS, I am only 23, and my WW was told to leave if she could not end her affair. We have no kids, but we do have a house. When I told WW to leave or end affair, her and OM went around confessing the A to friends and enlightening them to the situation.

The thing is, that was over a month ago. She never left. She went so far as to find an apartment, but she never had the strength to leave.

My point is, none of the traditional "attachments" that are presented as excuses for staying are there. We've only been married 2 years, so there isn't a long marital history. We have no children, so no one other than us would have our lives dramatically impacted by a split. We are just starting our lives, so there are not a lot of assets to protect.

It's been a while since that weekend, but there are some signs that things may be improving and that there will be a real effort to work on things.

If your relationship was such a sure bet, like my WW thought her relationship was with OM, she would have left. I even told her to go to him and we could split if that was what she wanted after the affair was discovered (I discovered after months of lies, suspected the entire time, but trusted).

To be honest, I now mostly have pity for OM and WW. If my marriage works, great, if not, I'll know I tried but couldn't do it all myself. As far as WW and OM are concerned, they will live with this guilt for the rest of their lives, regardless of how it turns out. Forgiveness can be given, but only if the actions are changed.

The BS goes through many ups and downs. At the time of not knowing about the A, I probably would have given anything to really know what was going on. I knew in my heart what was happening, but trusted too much in words when very convincing signs were all around. From your postings, I can see that the OP goes through many ups and downs as well. To be honest, BS's and OP's have something in common, they are both being used by the WS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mosana:
<strong>..and to disregard those emotions as a FOG is assinine. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Mosana, YOU are assinine. And your presence here is hurtful...you don't seem to be ending your affair...is your only purpose here, to laugh in BS' faces? You are not BUILDING, you are DESTROYING a marriage. For clarification, this site is called MARRIAGE BUILDERS. So please go away, and don't come back until you have decided to leave your MM.

Straycat,
Again someone who wants to live in a bubble where there is only good and evil and you feel you have the corner on the good side. Okay if this is a site where thoughts and different POV are not accepted then I will leave but I have talked to some woman here (lets drop the titles of BS WS TOW and MM) who are interested in the other side and obtaining an understanding of it. Some have asked me questions without persecution because they really want to some insight into what happened with thier spouses affair, just as I asked you the title of this post, so instead of answering the question asked,you condeme me for my personal life. Stick to the question Straycat and didnt your mother ever tell you "If you dont have something nice to say don't say it atall." You might think you know my relationship, you dont. Just as I dont know yours. You cant say that he does not love me you cant say that he is in a fog and you cant say that he should stay with his wife. The only thing that you could say that makes sense is facts, I will listen to how the affair hurts people, how it is better to have a relationship that isn't started by an ending,that you will have a higher chance of infidelity if the reason for the betrayal is not dealt with. I will listen to your stories and feel compassion for you and the pain that all of you go through trying to put your marriages back together. I have someone to judge me later, thanks for the offer though Straycat.

Hello again,

My answer is: YES, tell her. I agree with whomever talked about the polluted memories. Many BS on this site talk about the memories tainted by mistrust.

Also, if it were me, I'd like the opportunity to stop having sex with H and get tested for STDs. Not that you have any, but there are BS's on this site that have gotten bugs from hidden A's. I feel that it is a sign of respect to allow someone to protect themselves if they choose.

Another reason to tell is that I talk about infidelity quite a bit with friends, visit many websites, and really, I can't think of one W who wouldn't want to know. I would. Wouldn't you want to know if he was having sex with his W?

Well, I guess some wouldn't want to know. But, I think that people who are interested in protecting themselves from STDs, and making informed decisions about their futures would like to know.

In fact, if I knew of any A's right now in the real world, I would immediately tell the BS for the reasons listed above, anonymously of course.

Keeping the BS in the dark effictively takes away most if not all of their power to make reasonable and adult decisions concerning their fate.

Perhaps that is why I see A's as a form of abuse. Not just to BS, but to OP as well. After all, abuse is actually about power and control, not anger as once thought. Who feels comfortable having all the power and leaving others with none? The answer: People with abusive behavior.

By keeping one person in the dark, that person's personal power is taken away.

If you look at the dynamics in an A, the power and control issues demonstrated by a WS can be as devastating to OP and BS as a beating. The feelings of helplessness, dependence, etc...

Many OP I see tend to have a weak or missing boundary system that allows them to continue in an A or even start one to begin with, including my best friend.

It's eerily similar to abuse survivors who stay in the violent R when everyone is screaming: RUN!!!!!!!!!

There are similarities in the dynamics of boundaries with prostitution as well. I watched a documentary on prostitution, and was shocked when I learned about the dynamics of control involved.

The prostitutes seemed to be people with insufficient boundaries similar to abused wives. They were being mentally and physically controlled with a variety of strategies.

Very extreme examples compared to A's, but I think the boundary thing is the key correlation. Many OW are unsatisfied/hurting with the dynamics of the EMR, yet they stay. Looking into boundaries could explain why abuse survivors, OP, and prostitutes stay in situations that cause deep pain.

So, taking all of the above into account, tell her so that everyone can get on with their lives, including you.

-blueberry

<small>[ October 19, 2002, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: blueberryskies ]</small>

Monsana, Want to ask you questions but no time now as getting ready to go to Florida for winter. You get alot of people mad at you etc being the OW so I thought you could use a laugh. When I was questioning my husband about finding that gift (was in jewelry box) he said to me "now why would I give someone I was having an affair with jewelry"??? Can you belive that one? ha I said "what would you give her? a gift certificate from Steak and Shake?? He eats there alot. He really acted so shocked that I would suggest such a thing as jewelry like it was unheard of to give to someone your having affair with. haIs this lame or what?? Hope this gives you a smile for the day. Have you gotten any jewelry?? ha. Will talk to you later next week when in Florida. Be happy but don't depend on your man to much,you could be hurt big time. Maybe thats why you keep posting you have these feelings and want answers to help you decide whats really going on with him because you are now having doubts about his real intentions???Later

Monsana, Want to ask you questions but no time now as getting ready to go to Florida for winter. You get alot of people mad at you etc being the OW so I thought you could use a laugh. When I was questioning my husband about finding that gift (was in jewelry box) he said to me "now why would I give someone I was having an affair with jewelry"??? Can you belive that one? ha I said "what would you give her? a gift certificate from Steak and Shake?? He eats there alot. He really acted so shocked that I would suggest such a thing as jewelry like it was unheard of to give to someone your having affair with. haIs this lame or what?? Hope this gives you a smile for the day. Have you gotten any jewelry?? ha. Will talk to you later next week when in Florida. Be happy but don't depend on your man to much,you could be hurt big time. Maybe thats why you keep posting you have these feelings and want answers to help you decide whats really going on with him because you are now having doubts about his real intentions???Later

Confused
No jewerly and I pay for everything too,,lol have a great time in Florida. Hope you here from you soon email me....Mos

Hi mosana
one thing that really bothers me still is what the A was like. Truly.
My H seems to have blanked out completely what they talked about etc I only have the emails they sent to each other. The text msgs had long been erased.
Now when I ask him about it ( it happened in Mar I found out after it ended in Apr) He just says "I don't remember much..it never went that far." However the OP's last email was " I don't want to complicate our lives etc"
To me, I would not write something like that if it I did not feel it was serious. He said he felt it was over the top when he read it as well.
Anyways, she turned up in my workplace sometime in Jume with her D looking for my H.
He then finally got it that she had a totally different perspective from H on what was going on.
He straighted it out by being extra attentive to me while she was around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

My point after all this rambling is:

Who knows what "the truth" of a relationship is?
Everyone has a different perspective and even that changes with time.

I have no control over my H. Neither did/does the OP. Sometimes on his more lucid moments, even he admits he was out of control. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You can only tell your side of the story. The MM will certainly have his version too. Which do you think his W is going to believe if she wants the marriage to work?

mosana, there is one thing you've said that has made some sense, and that is that no one has the right to judge you. but guess what? unfortunatly what you refuse to see is that others have not only the right but the responsibility to judge your actions. if you see someone point a gun at anothers head, do you stand by quietly or try to talk them out of pulling the trigger? the answer is obvious to those of us with a soul. what you are doing isn't just cruel and selfish, it's evil. you are holding your lover's wife arms as he emotionally rapes her over, and over, and over. and then you try to justify it. there is NO justification. if he was any kind of man, he would have left his wife BEFORE any sort of involvement with you. if you were any sort of woman, you'd insist on it. if he has kids, what kind of message is he sending them? it's okay to make promises when it's easy, and okay to break them whenever things get tough? would you want someone to treat your child with as little respect as you help this creature treat his wife? or how about your mom? it's so easy to tell yourself that your different, that he really loves you, but try to remember that at some point his wife had those same thoughts herself. remember, that which you do comes back to you times ten. maybe when you find that one person you could love you'll find he feels towards you the way your guy feels about his wife. or perhaps it will wait to come back on your kids. tell us this, when your child is crying in your arms asking you how this could happen to them, will you be proud to tell them they're reaping what you have sown?

Kristawny,
Your just plain nuts. Things coming back to you, yes I believe that to be true and I have bent over backwards for lots of people in my life and am known as a kind hearted women not the EVIL troll you got in your head. The emotional rape I think you are being a tad dramatic. I as well have had people cheat on me and yes your angry but pleassssse. If my child had a spouse that cheated on him or her I would give them my love and support. They would move on with or without their partner. I am assuming that your partner cheated on you. By your account of things coming back on you what did you do to desearve it....that is again assinin. You must have pissed someone else off in your last life and now YOU are reaping what you sow.Or perhaps your parents did something naughty and thats why this is happening to you....Do you get the picture of your thinking? Okay then back to the undramatic,lets take it as it is....Yes it is wrong to lie to someone. Yes you should have the balls to tell your wife you dont want to be with her anymore and Yes you should try to work things out before you fall for someone else....EVIL Raping sorry cant give you that...Mosana and PS if my child came to me and told me that they had falling in love woth someone else other then thier spouse, I would feel bad that thier marriage didnt last, I would be disapointed that they didnt end it first and I would be happy that they got out of a dead marriage and were in love with someone who treated them good.

Mosana,

You may feel it to be overly dramatic to describe an affair as emotional rape. That does not negate the fact that to the BS, that is exactly how it feels. Not only does the WS have an affair, but he lies about it, hides it, becomes distant, hypercritical and places the blame on the BS.

So, yeah, it feels like an emotional rape. Devastingly life altering. Your spouse tells you he's not hiding anything (when you know he is), calls you psycho and accuses you of having an affair -gaslighting you, so to speak.

A boyfriend deciding to date other people is so vastly different from having your husband deciding to date other people. Maybe something isn't working in the relationship, but how does the BS even begin to remain calm once she discovers that the man who declared his undying love and adoration is not only cheating, but lying and deflecting?

C'mon. If he doesn't want me, at least have the cajones to say it to me. Be honest, allow me the same respect and consideration he's giving to every other friggin' person in the world. I could have handled him saying "I just don't love you anymore" far better than the affair, the lying and the false accusations that were an attempt to hide that he was having an affair.

The real kicker is that I know he's a good man. He just got incredibly selfish and narcissistic. The rest of the world, including OW, never gets to see that side of him -so, in essence, he's lying to everyone.

Salome~

I agree with you.... and I know that I would be very angry and horribly upset at the betrayal...I would be upset at my husband though not the OW... I know what you mean about your husband not giving you the same respect that is afforded to everyone else that too happened in my marriage though not with infidelity.

If you take seriously the Biblical perspective that a married couple is one flesh, and that your body is not your own, but your spouse's, then rape is the logical word to use, because someone was having sex with "my" body without my consent. That is what "rape" means. Personally, I feel the OM raped me, and my wife, by lying, allowed him to do it. Repeatedly. Just the same as if she had put the "date rape" drug in my drink and then invited him in to have sex with me while I was unaware of what was going on.

Mosana, You said in your last post "I know that I would be very angry and horribly upset at the betrayal...I would be upset at my husband though not the OW" but let me ask you this. What about the OW who for whatever reason will not leave the WS and BS alone once she is told that they want to make the marriage work. The OW who calls at all hours and hangs up, calls the WS at work, the OW who just can't for some reason get it into her head that the WS made a mistake and wants another chance with his wife. Yes the WS was wrong for having the Affair in the first place but when he wants to end it, it becomes very hard when the OW will not let it go. Can you understand why some of us are so angry with the op. My FWH ex-ow started calling him again six months after he ended it with her. She tried calling him at work, his cell phone and home. He had to change his cell # and we changed our home number because she continued to call and hang up. He has changed jobs and she has no idea were he is working but we had to change everything because she could not understand that it was over. Yes I was angry with my husband for having an affair instead of dealing with the problems in our marriage, but I am also angry with the OW. I understand that she was hurt by my FWH too, but to tell the truth I really don't care. She knew going into the R that he was married, she took a chance and she lost. That may sound awful but that is how I feel. As far as your R with MM, that is between you and him and his wife, are you really in to three ways? Don't you think you deserve better? He sounds like a real cake eater, and by hanging on you are making it very easy for him. Tell him to make up his mind, get off the fence, its the only way for you to be happy. You deserve to be # one, everyone does, if not with him then with someone who can be yours 24/7. If your R with him was meant to be it will happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mosana:
<strong>I agree with you.... and I know that I would be very angry and horribly upset at the betrayal...I would be upset at my husband though not the OW... I know what you mean about your husband not giving you the same respect that is afforded to everyone else that too happened in my marriage though not with infidelity.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I might not be upset w/ TOW if she weren't aware of my husband's marital status. But she does know and she knew from the very beginning. Most of the blame falls squarely on dh's shoulders, but TOW does get a share. She's not the focus of my attention, but if she attempts to continue to insert herself into my marital relationship, she'll become a focus.

I've read the TOW board and know how many of TOW feel about the wife -"snooping b****" is the least offensive adjective I've seen written there. Here's what I know -dh has lied to me, lied to her and lied to everyone else. She doesn't think he's lied to her, but having read the emails from him and some of the things he's told her about me...he's lied, tremendously. The story, according to him, is not remotely connected to our reality. In that sense, I feel empathy w/ her. I just don't understand how she can buy the lines he gives her...full well knowing that he's skilled at the lying.

~