Hello Cerri, KaylaAndy and others who may be able to help.

As the wife of an SA I would guess that you two have been in a similar situation and therefore I turn to you for answers.

My H is in recovery. I say recovery because he denies any acting out since DDay. He does attend a weekly SA meeting, but he views all of the people there as losers and appears to mostly sit in judgement of them rather than to identify with the issues presented. Although the Meadows is practically in our back yard, he does not view himself as a cantidate for their work and refuses to pursue that avenue. He's read a couple of Carnes books.

I am unsatisfied with his progress because clearly he does this as a step toward reconciliation with me, not as a problem within his life that needs to be addressed because as he continues to insist that all men do this, women just don't know about it. It really isn't abnormal. We are talking about prostitutes, massage parlor hand jobs, paid BJ's, etc. We are also talking about a good number of "women" than spans two marriages. He also insists that there is no withdrawl therefore there is no addiction.

Very often recently, my husband is complaining of great urges (he says unacted upon) to visit the massage parlors for HJ's and/or BJ's. At first, I have tried to be supportive that he called me instead of acting out. That is what he is supposed to do right? I thank him for letting me know and that I was glad that he made the appropriate choices and I have told him that it was trust building for him to share this with me. Not that I have any restored trust, quite the contrary, but it is something that could build trust as other aspects improve, this last piece I haven't shared but is what I feel. My support in waning.

This was not an isolated conversation, it is repetitive. Tonight he called to tell me that he is being pulled there and can't say no much longer. He also told me that had he not had a commitment to his daughter last night, that he would have been there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

My suggestions are to go to an SA meeting . He says doesn't help, all they talk about is how they acted out last night and they disgust him. Call your sponsor . He says that the people who have offered to sponsor him are so beneath him and that he cannot turn to someone whom disgusts him, therefore he still does not have a sponsor. Find a group that works for you . He isn't motivated to look for new groups. This was the second or third group he found. Go to the Meadows . He says that is a brush off and that he needs me to help him work through this. I tell him that they are the experts, I don't know what to tell him, they do.

From there it turns ugly basically with a threat that he can't continue to say no.

I don't know what else to do <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . It is very draining on my LB to here that he needs his money-for-sex girls. It further reduces my trust and makes me even more apprehensive to meet any SF needs.

I don't know what else to say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . I'm not going to do the co-dependent thing, I'm not going to do it for him. It isn't possible. It is his matter and HE needs to address it for real. Here I hear a little Cerri voice in my head that says planB, planB but I am sure that will put him right over there with his hookers and that will be the end of that, period.

Any words of wisdom would be very helpful.

Cerri, plase still address the POJA questions in your copious spare time.

KaylaAndy, I know that your H posts here and if you feel that he is better equipped to answer my questions, please refer him. CerrisH too.

I will pose my concerns to the CoSA group, but I find that their advice does not coincide with the MB philosophies in which I very much believe.

Anyone else, all constructive advice is welcome.

We are separated due to these issues so my follow up of his activites is very limited. Accountability is limited to his honesty which has a very bad track record. He often uses the catch-all excuse of "I thought it was over" which is a decision that he independently makes on a regular basis. To him it is justification for any and all bad choices.

Thank you, thank you for any outside perspective. It's pretty dark in here.

SpyWife

(who doesn't really spy anymore, just tries to believe in the Let Go and Let God approach).

Hi SW....
Long time no see!!!

My H is in recovery. I say recovery because he denies any acting out since DDay.

I will agree that stopping the behavior is the first action necessary for recovery, it doesn't end there. So, if we were to compare this to alcohol abuse, we would say that someone who is not drinking but not addressing the issues is still active in the addictive process.

The behavior of choice.... sex, gambling, eating, drugs, etc. is only a symptom of deeper issues. Stopping the behavior is commendable. However until the underlying illness is addressed, stopping is simply a bandaid.

He does attend a weekly SA meeting, but he views all of the people there as losers and appears to mostly sit in judgement of them rather than to identify with the issues presented.

I would be curious to know what it is about the others in the group that spurs his contempt. Are they not working the program.... simply using it as a social gathering to whine about their lives?

Although the Meadows is practically in our back yard, he does not view himself as a cantidate for their work and refuses to pursue that avenue.

Tell me more about the Meadows. Do the do SA work? As of 2years ago Hazeldon... in OUR backyard... didn't.

He's read a couple of Carnes books.

And what did he think?

I am unsatisfied with his progress because clearly he does this as a step toward reconciliation with me, not as a problem within his life that needs to be addressed

Ok, but if he is doing it to keep you in his life, then by default it IS a problem that needs to be addressed. To insist that he see it the way you do is a demand and it's disrespectful. To insist that he take your feelings into account as a condition of recovery is not.

because as he continues to insist that all men do this, women just don't know about it. It really isn't abnormal.

That seems to be a pretty universal rationalization. H tried it too. I don't know if he really believed it, or if he talked himself into it. Now he know and admits how false that statement is. Interesting side note: using the all inclusive words of all and always generally creates a false statement. It seems to me that often times when people do that to justify their behavior they know at some level that they're out of line.

He also insists that there is no withdrawl therefore there is no addiction.

Funny that he could say this and then your next sentence is:

Very often recently, my husband is complaining of great urges (he says unacted upon) to visit the massage parlors for HJ's and/or BJ's.

Sounds like withdrawal to me!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

At first, I have tried to be supportive that he called me instead of acting out. That is what he is supposed to do right? I thank him for letting me know and that I was glad that he made the appropriate choices and I have told him that it was trust building for him to share this with me. Not that I have any restored trust, quite the contrary, but it is something that could build trust as other aspects improve, this last piece I haven't shared but is what I feel. My support in waning.

Yes, that is the right thing to do. You are the one that he should be coming to with his thoughts and desires. That's what radical honesty is about. I think there might be some tweaking needed on HOW he presents that information to you, and what he expects that you do with it.

It sounds like there might be some demand in there that since he is not acting out, you are therefore required to do something in return. Doesn't work that way.

Also, the fact that your ability to be supportive is waning is due to the dropping of your LBnk balance. Your Taker is making an appearance and saying, "What about me?????"

That's entirely normal. If you can recognize it as such, and if we can keep things moving forward, I think you can continue to act in a way that is supportive by choosing intelligently what to do and say.

This was not an isolated conversation, it is repetitive. Tonight he called to tell me that he is being pulled there and can't say no much longer. He also told me that had he not had a commitment to his daughter last night, that he would have been there.

Ok, that's not honesty. That's a threat. Honesty would be telling you how he feels. Together you should be devising strategies to help him stay sober. He being honest with you is one of those strategies. The idea being that telling you and knowing how much it would hurt you would then be the impetus to take your feelings into account.

But to say he has these urges and he won't be able to hold out, is a threat. It might also be punishment. Control.....


My suggestions are to go to an SA meeting . He says doesn't help, all they talk about is how they acted out last night and they disgust him.[/b]

Yes, it sounds like it's a group that is not proactively moving forward.

Call your sponsor . He says that the people who have offered to sponsor him are so beneath him and that he cannot turn to someone whom disgusts him, therefore he still does not have a sponsor.

A sponsor is a pretty personal thing. But one of the things about addicts, and addictions is that there is a tendency to think one is better than everyone else. Or maybe to put on that facade, is a better way of describing it. Because deep down, addictions begin with the need to fill something that is missing. To cover up some very deep pain, and to hide from not feeling good enough.

So, I wonder if having a sponsor who is also ill would feel too much like an admission that he is not perfect?

See, here's the thing H really learned in his SAA group. That having an addiction does not make you a lesser person. It simply means you are a person with a weakness that you must take precautions to avoid.

We ALL have weaknesses and flaws, it's part of being human. That doesn't excuse us from learning to behave appropriately. It simply means that we will all struggle in one area or another.

Addicts have a huge fear of admitting that they have any weaknesses or that they struggle. And I think the stronger the addiction, the more that is true.

Find a group that works for you . He isn't motivated to look for new groups. This was the second or third group he found.

Well, this is the obvious step. If we can assume that it's the group that's not working, rather than the possibility that he is not being open to what is available within the group.

I would say that working a recovery program within a group that will keepm him accountable is a non-negotiable for reconciliation.

Go to the Meadows . He says that is a brush off and that he needs me to help him work through this. I tell him that they are the experts, I don't know what to tell him, they do.

He needs to know that you support his efforts, and are behind him. But the work of recovery is his work. He needs to show that he can and will do what it takes.

Also, it would not be healthy for the M for you to be cast in the role of teacher and task master. Support system, yes. Teacher, no.

I don't know what else to do <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . It is very draining on my LB to here that he needs his money-for-sex girls. It further reduces my trust and makes me even more apprehensive to meet any SF needs.

If he was telling you about his urges and desires within the context of working a program, I think you would feel differently. He should be coming to you with those things, and then adding... here is what I am doing to protect you from the pain I know that would cause.

In that type of scenario, it would be trust building. As it stands now, it's threatening.

I don't know what else to say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . I'm not going to do the co-dependent thing, I'm not going to do it for him. It isn't possible. It is his matter and HE needs to address it for real.

Co-dependent says that you are responsible for watching him and making sure he does the right thing. You don't want to go there. But under the right condtions you can act as a partner and source of support.

Here I hear a little Cerri voice in my head that says planB, planB but I am sure that will put him right over there with his hookers and that will be the end of that, period.

Yes, I know how you feel about that. It's why I endured the abuse for as long as I did. Dr. Harley told me so many times to do a Plan B, and I didn't for the same reasons you talk about now.

But I wish I had. Either it would have been over, as you say, or it would have been better sooner. Either way would have been better than what I went through.

Also, somewhere in that thinking.... that you must put up with his cr*p in order to keep him from the OW's is codependent thinking. What you are saying... and what I said too... is that you are willing to continue to be hurt by his actions in order to prevent or keep him from following the addictive process.

That concept keeps you both stuck in the addiction. You in the pain, and him in the ability to string you along. It's a form of control.

Cerri, plase still address the POJA questions in your copious spare time.

Would you think I was a complete dweeb if I asked you to just refresh my memory? It's been a really looooooong week!

I will pose my concerns to the CoSA group, but I find that their advice does not coincide with the MB philosophies in which I very much believe.

I wondered about that. I'm thinking about starting a group. Interested? email me.

Thank you, thank you for any outside perspective. It's pretty dark in here.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SW}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You know where I am. Call if you need to talk.

C

ps.... I would still spy... but I tend to be over zealous...(in case you hadn't noticed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Hi SW,
Perhaps I will share some of my feelings about this one.

I have seen the debate go back and forth many times on this subject, and I have even gotten into it a time or two. It seems that some think that it is a natural urge and we shouldn't deny it. I am in the camp that thinks that natural urges are able to serve us quite well only if we keep them under control.

I am an old guy now, but I can still remember what it was like to be a teenager, and it was not fun. It took me many years to learn to control those feelings. I believe that when shared between husband and wife these feelings can bring some of the strongest and closest love that we are capable of feeling. I also believe that when misused, they can cause pure hell in our lives. I believe this site has many examples of how bad it is if this power of creation and love is misused.

I suppose most of this is just my feelings, and I believe cerri covered very well how you should act on what he is saying. I guess my point is that I have learned that what he is saying about having to act out his feelings is not true. It is an addiction, and it can be broken like any other. The way we break ourselves is to resist the feelings and not give in. I agree he is trying to control you. He may really believe what he is saying, but he has the tools he needs to break away ( support groups) and he refuses to use them. I can't see how he is any different than those he looks down upon.

When I say the feelings need to be controlled, I am not saying to deny them. To control them means ( to me) that they are to be used to strengthen the marriage and bring us closer to our spouse and that is not what he is doing with his comments to you. If he wants you to help him and be close to him again, he needs to be nice to you, and he is not nice at all right now.

Well, I just wanted you to know that one can learn to control these feelings and use them properly to strengthen the marriage. He has to want to do it if he is to be able to do it, and he has to be willing to use all the tools given him. It looks like he is setting himself up for failure and plans to say "see, I told you it wouldn't work." ( but I hope not)

I hope it does work, but remember that you don't have to go along with him if he won't do his part. I remember when you first came and began posting. I hurt so much for you, but didn't feel I could do you much good. I really wish for your success and will pray for it also.

SS

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi SS... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I like what you have to say. Good insights on using our natural desires in a way that builds rather than destroys marriage and other relationships in our lives.

C

SpyWife -

I too am a user of paid-sex services who is in the very early stages of recovery. (I last had intercouse with a prostitute about a month ago.)

Reading these boards and seeing the intense pain affairs give to the betrayed spouse caused me to examine my behavior, and realize that unless I changed my ways I was going to hurt my wife badly.

Does your hubby ever read posts on MarriageBuilders? If this site doesn't appeal to him, there are others. (Send him to the "Betrayed Wives" forum on www.facereality.com .)

I've only been "clean" for about a month, but whenever I feel the need to stray again I'll just logon and read some posts.

As for hubby's claim that this is "normal" behavior, you'd be amazed how much of our culture encourages this type of behavior from us guys. TV seems particularly bad. I try not to watch TV when I'm away from home, and I am now making a conscious effort to surround myself with forms of entertainment that DON'T encourage casual sexual encounters.

But ..... I've only been doing this for a month, and some nights I still feel the urges. (Most guys have a physical/emotional need to periodically ejaculate, and an emotional need to do so in an ego gratifying manner.) I'm afraid that this is something I will be fighting for the rest of my life.

Good luck to the both of you.

Hey SW & Cerri,

No fair, I've been miserable and deteriorating without any support, and here you are again. I didn’t dare join the infamous long P thread. Couldn’t keep up and not in a position to be adding any 2 cents.

Well, I just wanted to say hi to start. It’s home time, so I’ve copied your thread to read. Reply tomorrow.

PS: I’m glad to hear form you both, Sorry for the development SW.

Hello SS, and Doofus…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by eli:
<strong>Hey SW & Cerri,

No fair, I've been miserable and deteriorating without any support, and here you are again. I didn’t dare join the infamous long P thread. Couldn’t keep up and not in a position to be adding any 2 cents.

Well, I just wanted to say hi to start. It’s home time, so I’ve copied your thread to read. Reply tomorrow.

PS: I’m glad to hear form you both, Sorry for the development SW.

Hello SS, and Doofus…</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, I'm here..... Just start a thread at JFO with my name in the subject line and I'll offer what support I can.

Lots of folks just come and go from P's thread.... drop in with whatever their issue is and then leave. But if you're not comfortable with that, just hunt me down. Others do.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Hi Cerri,

Thanks for your help with this.

I will agree that stopping the behavior is the first action necessary for recovery, it doesn't end there.

I agree, and surely there are deeper issues but he doesn't believe in that. Since I don't know what the underlying issue is, I cannot help with that. Maybe in time he and his IC will discover it.

I would be curious to know what it is about the others in the group that spurs his contempt. Are they not working the program....

Most of them have bigger SA issues. Rape and child molestation. I agree that it is hard to respect people who do these things, but they are working the program and doing the steps and so you have to give them credit for addressing their problem. When you put his issues next to that, his don't seem so bad but what it is all about is identifying that there are unhealthy sex issues no matter how they act upon them. He can't identify with it.

Tell me more about the Meadows. Do the do SA work?

That is Partick Carnes' place. It is THE place to go for SA. They do all of the other addictions as well, but SA is their specialty. They have a six week intensive live in program and they have a week long mens group that is outpatient. I think that either would be good for him but if he sits in judgement rather that focussing on himself it may not help.

He's read a couple of Carnes books.

And what did he think?

He did some of the excercizes but I think that mostly, again he discovered that in relation to the severe examples that Carnes uses, he's not so bad after all.

I am unsatisfied with his progress because clearly he does this as a step toward reconciliation with me, not as a problem within his life that needs to be addressed

Ok, but if he is doing it to keep you in his life, then by default it IS a problem that needs to be addressed. To insist that he see it the way you do is a demand and it's disrespectful. To insist that he take your feelings into account as a condition of recovery is not.


I don't think that I insist that he see it my way. For reconciliation to be possible, the SA does need to be addressed but he's going through the motions but not really getting anything from it. Yes, he can say that a child molster is worse than a man who uses prostitutes, massage parlors, whatnot but I don't want to be married to either. His actions have done severe damage to this relationship, which he recognises. I guess that I am wanting him to fix the problem and he doesn't see it as a problem. I have a feeling that he does feel it to some extent on the inside but he is not going to say it out loud.

because as he continues to insist that all men do this, women just don't know about it. It really isn't abnormal.

That seems to be a pretty universal rationalization. H tried it too. I don't know if he really believed it, or if he talked himself into it. Now he know and admits how false that statement is.

Even if most men do, which isn't possibly true...it isn't going to work for me.
He also insists that there is no withdrawl therefore there is no addiction.

Funny that he could say this and then your next sentence is:

Very often recently, my husband is complaining of great urges (he says unacted upon) to visit the massage parlors for HJ's and/or BJ's.

Sounds like withdrawal to me!!

Of course it does, but he doesn't see it that way. To him, withdrawl should be getting the shakes and physically sick. And urge is something different.

As a reformed smoker, I can tell you that it isn't always like that. When I quit I wasn't physically sick, but I had extreme urges. The trick is to not give into them.

Yes, that is the right thing to do. You are the one that he should be coming to with his thoughts and desires. That's what radical honesty is about. I think there might be some tweaking needed on HOW he presents that information to you, and what he expects that you do with it.


Do you have suggestions?

Also, the fact that your ability to be supportive is waning is due to the dropping of your LBnk balance. Your Taker is making an appearance and saying, "What about me?????"


Perhaps. Largely, I think it is a frustration because I can't fix this, I know that...I won't even try because I know it is his issue. However, he isn't really fixing it either he's just showing up at the meetings.

Ok, that's not honesty. That's a threat. Honesty would be telling you how he feels. Together you should be devising strategies to help him stay sober.

Is is threatening and makes me feel like I need to babysit him so that he will not act out. I don't understand though how I can help devise stratgies. To me, the best strategy I know is for him to go find a group and a sponsor that he CAN identify with and talk to people than are better equipped to help him work through this.

He being honest with you is one of those strategies.

Yes, and he is doing that. Very good, but not enough alone.

But to say he has these urges and he won't be able to hold out, is a threat. It might also be punishment. Control.....

Hmm. Hadn't thought of it as control, but that is one of problems and I guess that this is a controlling approach.

A sponsor is a pretty personal thing. But one of the things about addicts, and addictions is that there is a tendency to think one is better than everyone else. Or maybe to put on that facade, is a better way of describing it.

I'm sure it is. But again, whatever work it is to find one is his work. I can't interview potential sponsors for him.

So, I wonder if having a sponsor who is also ill would feel too much like an admission that he is not perfect?

Maybe. It seems to me that Meadows is the next step then because it is more of a discovery workshop and providing tools to work through the "urges".

Addicts have a huge fear of admitting that they have any weaknesses or that they struggle. And I think the stronger the addiction, the more that is true.

I suppose that is where the justification that it is the norm comes from.

I would say that working a recovery program within a group that will keepm him accountable is a non-negotiable for reconciliation.


Thanks. It just feels like a demand - well, I guess it IS a demand that he see the addiction and address it.

Also, it would not be healthy for the M for you to be cast in the role of teacher and task master. Support system, yes. Teacher, no.


I know. And I can't...there are people who have the experience with this to help him - he's the one that needs to find them. But he wants me in that role. Probably because he has comfort there...I already know so he doesn't need to tell all to a stranger.

If he was telling you about his urges and desires within the context of working a program, I think you would feel differently. He should be coming to you with those things, and then adding... here is what I am doing to protect you from the pain I know that would cause.

In that type of scenario, it would be trust building. As it stands now, it's threatening. /B]

Yes, I would feel differently. The way it is now, I feel helpless and my hope is affected.

[B]Also, somewhere in that thinking.... that you must put up with his cr*p in order to keep him from the OW's is codependent thinking. What you are saying... and what I said too... is that you are willing to continue to be hurt by his actions in order to prevent or keep him from following the addictive process.


I know. It makes me want to talk to his IC and give him my insight but I don't think that is the right thiing to do. His IC knows that I want to meet him and discuss but he has told H that there will be a time for that, but it is not time now.

That concept keeps you both stuck in the addiction. You in the pain, and him in the ability to string you along. It's a form of control.


And leaves me feeling like after seven months there has not been much progress.

Cerri, plase still address the POJA questions in your copious spare time.

Would you think I was a complete dweeb if I asked you to just refresh my memory? It's been a really looooooong week!

Dweeb no. Might make me think that your life does not revolve around me though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> P's, pg 251.

I will pose my concerns to the CoSA group, but I find that their advice does not coincide with the MB philosophies in which I very much believe.

I wondered about that. I'm thinking about starting a group. Interested? email me.


What I am getting there is...leave it alone...it's his and he's the only one that can fix it. I know this is true, but it is draining.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SW}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

You know where I am. Call if you need to talk.


Thanks friend. I know that you can't do it for us either, but it is good to have you to keep me focused and be able to talk about it.

SW

ps.... I would still spy... but I tend to be over zealous...(in case you hadn't noticed )

Aah, I'm not spying, but I am keeping my eyes wide open. I'm not naive anymore.

Hello SS.

I am in the camp that thinks that natural urges are able to serve us quite well only if we keep them under control.


Well said.


I believe that when shared between husband and wife these feelings can bring some of the strongest and closest love that we are capable of feeling. I also believe that when misused, they can cause pure hell in our lives.

So true. I understand affairs. I understand needing love and finding it elsewhere. I don't think it is right but I understand how and why it happens. The prostitutes and whatnot don't make sense to me. There is no act of love and there must be a huge self esteem price to pay for a nameless roll-in-the-hay.

I guess my point is that I have learned that what he is saying about having to act out his feelings is not true. It is an addiction, and it can be broken like any other.

May I ask....do you have some SA past?

The way we break ourselves is to resist the feelings and not give in. I agree he is trying to control you. He may really believe what he is saying, but he has the tools he needs to break away ( support groups) and he refuses to use them.

Just like quitting smoking. Just say no. Difficult, yes but the only way to get the job done.

I can't see how he is any different than those he looks down upon.

And I've told him that yes, they have done terrible things, but they are trying to recover from it and that makes them better than the sickos (yes that was judgemental but I didn't knw a better way to say it) that they used to be.

When I say the feelings need to be controlled, I am not saying to deny them. To control them means ( to me) that they are to be used to strengthen the marriage and bring us closer to our spouse and that is not what he is doing with his comments to you. If he wants you to help him and be close to him again, he needs to be nice to you, and he is not nice at all right now.

But you must deny them to control them, don't you? Yes, SF is appropriate in the marriage, but the anonymous, and threesome urges and whatnot, the only ways I know to eliminate them, is to suppress them. When you don't give in then eventually the brain gives up requesting it. Right?

It looks like he is setting himself up for failure and plans to say "see, I told you it wouldn't work." ( but I hope not)


I hope not too but I do worry about that.

I remember when you first came and began posting. I hurt so much for you, but didn't feel I could do you much good. I really wish for your success and will pray for it also.

Thanks. Sometimes it feels like I've come so far yet there is so much further to go.

SW

Hi Doofus.

I too am a user of paid-sex services who is in the very early stages of recovery.

I know, I was following your thread. Does your wife know the story yet?

Does your hubby ever read posts on MarriageBuilders?

Only mine I think. No, he really doesn't but he reads the articles and whatnot here. He's not a very chatty guy so he seems to think that the forum is a big waste of time.

I've only been "clean" for about a month, but whenever I feel the need to stray again I'll just logon and read some posts.

Good for you, gotta start somewhere. If I remember correctly, you had said that it was an occasional thing...few times a year.

As for hubby's claim that this is "normal" behavior, you'd be amazed how much of our culture encourages this type of behavior from us guys. TV seems particularly bad. I try not to watch TV when I'm away from home, and I am now making a conscious effort to surround myself with forms of entertainment that DON'T encourage casual sexual encounters.


Sad but true. It's everywhere. It seems that can't sell anything without putting seductive women on it. What I really worry about is the internet. The internet has made it so easy....you can play with porn, etc right from home almost free. I think that future generation will have more SA's than ever.

But ..... I've only been doing this for a month, and some nights I still feel the urges. (Most guys have a physical/emotional need to periodically ejaculate, and an emotional need to do so in an ego gratifying manner.) I'm afraid that this is something I will be fighting for the rest of my life.

I'm afraid it is a rest of your life kind of thing....just as alcohol is to the alcoholic. Can I ask you something personal? How is a prostitute ego gratifying? I would think it to be the opposite.

Good luck to the both of you.

To you and your wife too. Its a long hard road.

Best Wishes.
SW

Hi Eli.

No fair, I've been miserable and deteriorating without any support, and here you are again. I

Yes, you've been missing all of the fun.

How are you, it's been a long time. Thanks for the emails, I keep intending to write to you but lately I'm spread to thin. Four days till halloween and I have lots of costumes to finish. Hey C - my daughter is going to be a witch!!

didn&#8217;t dare join the infamous long P thread. Couldn&#8217;t keep up and not in a position to be adding any 2 cents.


It is big and intimidating, but there is alot of good information now. I try to practice what I learn about there thinking that I'll be a step ahead when we get further into recovery.

Good to hear from you. Give us an update.

SW

Hello Mateys (slang for friends here),

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will agree that stopping the behavior is the first action necessary for recovery, it doesn't end there. So, if we were to compare this to alcohol abuse, we would say that someone who is not drinking but not addressing the issues is still active in the addictive process. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, in AA I think the term is called Dry Drunk (there is a really good book about it by a woman…Elizabeth van Something-sorry). In some ways it can be quite bad, as they seem to be polarised in their approach and opinions, etc (many characteristics).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The behavior of choice.... sex, gambling, eating, drugs, etc. is only a symptom of deeper issues. Stopping the behavior is commendable. However until the underlying illness is addressed, stopping is simply a bandaid. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I have to agree, my SO has come up with a few issues in his childhood that has lowered his values (Cerri, I’d love to run this by you privately bc I am at a loss). I must say I did push him on this. Partly bc that’s just the way I am (I push hard and hope for the best, but I guess I take risks that I know will not drive him off the rails), and bc I feel like I’ve “wasted” too much time with this guy of mine.
This is what I was trying to say to Hobbyist & Doofus. Our society and culture creates a easy/nice place for addicts, but that doesn’t means that’s why they are the way they are, there has to be more to the picture.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He does attend a weekly SA meeting, but he views all of the people there as losers and appears to mostly sit in judgement of them rather than to identify with the issues presented.
I would be curious to know what it is about the others in the group that spurs his contempt. Are they not working the program.... simply using it as a social gathering to whine about their lives? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree yet again, and I would also wonder if it isn’t a little bit like reading the Carnes books where you think to yourself the examples are a little extreme and then miss the subtle points, like uncontrollability (I define it as still being uncontrolled if it is affecting the primary relationship and you can’t stop) or triggers, beliefs about society/gender/sexuality, unmanageability (disarrayed life such as being stagnant with career, low productivity, financial shortages, porr work relationships, etc).
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am unsatisfied with his progress because clearly he does this as a step toward reconciliation with me, not as a problem within his life that needs to be addressed </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can kinda relate a little bit, in the sense that they are doing something for you, make it quite obvious that is the only reason and do not do it whole-heartedly. Or, I am I off the mark? Well, that’s me speaking from my current situation at the moment. But, then having said all of that, we both know that you can’t make him do it our way, otherwise it just won’t be healthy, nor will it be successful.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He also insists that there is no withdrawl therefore there is no addiction.

Funny that he could say this and then your next sentence is:

Very often recently, my husband is complaining of great urges (he says unacted upon) to visit the massage parlors for HJ's and/or BJ's.

Sounds like withdrawal to me!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aha, good one 99.
(Cerri, I need help on this type of thing too, very confused, as I’m no expert, tried calling a centre here, and got no help at all. Also, I tend to confuse or misunderstand things).
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here I hear a little Cerri voice in my head that says planB, planB but I am sure that will put him right over there with his hookers and that will be the end of that, period.

Yes, I know how you feel about that. It's why I endured the abuse for as long as I did. Dr. Harley told me so many times to do a Plan B, and I didn't for the same reasons you talk about now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm, I admit I am not quite there yet, but I have a plan B-ish thing and I have disclosed it to him already. He agreed, but obviously had his amendment to it. I think I have a lot of anger and resentment. So, I guess I do tned toward the plan B here too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So true. I understand affairs. I understand needing love and finding it elsewhere. I don't think it is right but I understand how and why it happens. The prostitutes and whatnot don't make sense to me. There is no act of love and there must be a huge self esteem price to pay for a nameless roll-in-the-hay. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm in the exact same position, but it could just be that we've been hurt the same way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But you must deny them to control them, don't you? Yes, SF is appropriate in the marriage, but the anonymous, and threesome urges and whatnot, the only ways I know to eliminate them, is to suppress them. When you don't give in then eventually the brain gives up requesting it. Right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is a matter of working out the connection they've made about sex, and why they have concluded that anonymous sex, and threesomes, etc, is better than a great experience with the person whom you love. There has to be some misguided messages/experiences programmed into their connection with SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How are you, it's been a long time. Thanks for the emails, I keep intending to write to you but lately I'm spread to thin. Four days till halloween and I have lots of costumes to finish. Hey C - my daughter is going to be a witch!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SW,
I understand, life doesn't go on-hold for us to sort things out, and we all have responsibilities, most importantly if you have children.
Personally, I don't think I'm doing better. I know I'm showing signs of instability. Most disheartening for me (as it is not like me) is that I've started to put away some of the things that I think. Forced by his slow progress to leave for later. This builds resentment and anger for me. I really want to explore more of his thinking and beliefs when he was that "person". That's the way he puts it. He said he's never going to go back there, that person is dead for him.
I don't like it bc it feels to me like he just wants to lay it to sleep.

Cerri,
I know you've given out your email Cerri, but I'd love to write. I really don't have anyone who can help me at the moment.
Also, if it is ok, please be aware that I'm a very hard-headed, rigid person, and so I can't step out of my shoes very well.

Now, it's way pass work hour, I should go home and get dinner started.
Oh, I've missed writing. Thanks MBers!

Hi SW,
I don't come around every day, but will try to answer some of the questions you raised.

I don't think it is right but I understand how and why it happens. The prostitutes and whatnot don't make sense to me. There is no act of love and there must be a huge self esteem price to pay for a nameless roll-in-the-hay.

I don't understand that part either. And I would agree that it must be a huge hit to self esteem. I know that the feelings sometimes seemed that strong for me, but I never went that far.

It is an addiction, and it can be broken like any other."
May I ask....do you have some SA past?
I don't suppose some of those going to escort services would say so, but in my teenage years I did have a problem with masturbation and it was hell for me. It has been many years since I have had a problem, and I don't really have to fight the feelings now, it is behind me. I say a problem, many here say it is good and natural but I don't think anything with that much power over someone is any good. I did not have freedom, I had an addiction. Now I have freedom. Then, I did not have freedom, it had me in slavery. It took me a couple of years and help of a good church leader to break it. I had friends that I grew up with that had the same problem, and one came to me some time later and asked how to over come it. He hated it also, and the power it had over his life. I wonder how the false rumor ( to me at least ) gets spread that it is harmless.

When I say the feelings need to be controlled, I am not saying to deny them. To control them means ( to me) that they are to be used to strengthen the marriage and bring us closer to our spouse and that is not what he is doing.....
But you must deny them to control them, don't you? Yes, SF is appropriate in the marriage, but the anonymous, and threesome urges and whatnot, the only ways I know to eliminate them, is to suppress them. When you don't give in then eventually the brain gives up requesting it. Right?
Right, when I say don't deny them, there are some that say those feelings are bad and we are bad for having them. I believe they are good if used in the right way.
I agree they are appropriate in marriage but they can be used even improperly even within the bonds of marriage when we do things to hurt our spouse. So, yes, control in marriage, to be used to strengthen love between H and W . Other than that, I agree that you suppress them. Then someday, the time comes when they are not a problem any longer, like any addiction. At least, they no longer have power over our lives , to make us miserable.

Sometimes it feels like I've come so far yet there is so much further to go. SW
At least my W didn't have to deal with what you have to deal with. I feel for you and hope you are able to get through this and have things work for you - both of you.

SS

<small>[ October 29, 2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

spywife2002: "Does your wife know the story yet?"

No. She knows I have a sex problem, that I have been to see prostitutes in the past, and that I have spent way too much time browsing the internet for porn, and masturbating, (and I'm in my 40's!). But the where/when/how often she does not know, and isn't too comfortable with when I try to bring it up. (Which, conveniently, gives little ol' me a way out of having to give a full confession. Shame, shame!)

Lot's of folks are asking, "What is the thrill of having sex with a prostitute?" I think stillseeking hit upon the start of it all, the idea that sex for the sake of sex is okay, cool, and even maybe wonderful. Once you seperate sexual activity from responsibility, you can have all sorts of "fun". I can ask a prostitute to do all sorts of weird, gross things, just for the novelty of it, that would offend someone else. So it's a curiosity type appeal, along with the suspense of wondering what it will be like with a different person.

I guess in some case it is taking all the humanity out of the act of making love, and reducing it to body friction. On the other hand, there are some sex-for-hire women out there who are really lots of fun to be with. I can't deny this.

In all honesty, if I were not in a relationship I don't know what I would feel about prostitution right now. I might even still use it, and possibly publicly sing its praises. But the point is that I am married, I have a significant other who expects and depends upon me to behave in a way that does NOT include having sex with other women, regardless of the circumstances. It is because of this that I am stopping seeing prostitutes, not because I did not enjoy it.

I love my wife, and I value my relationship with her more than my temporary pleasure in someone else's arms.

My free advice is NOT to dwell upon why your straying spouse used escort services, because, after all, if it didn't feel good, (s)he wouldn't have done it, correct? I am going to focus on the great and wonderful aspects of being in a strong relationship, and avoid those behaviors and attitudes which weaken this relationship, much in the way that we eat our vegetables and exercise, rather than stuffing our face with cake and laying on cushions all day.

"In all honesty, if I were not in a relationship I don't know what I would feel about prostitution right now. I might even still use it, and possibly publicly sing its praises."

Grrr!! I can't believe I wrote that garbage!! I must still be delusional, because I know for a fact that for me such behavior is a one-way ticket to misery.

This is why I don't like to reminisce (sp?) about past indiscretions (sp?); the mind tends to remember the good stuff, and discard all the creepy and disgusting stuff.

I appologize for my prior post. Please take anything you read on this forum with a huge grain of salt, as some of us are still "fog bound" from time to time.

Hi Eli,

Again, I have to agree, my SO has come up with a few issues in his childhood that has lowered his values (Cerri, I&#8217;d love to run this by you privately bc I am at a loss). I must say I did push him on this.

I have tried to help H explpore this as well. I did find that he was exposed to pronography at a very young age and rememebers being embarrased by it, yet peeking at it. Also, he lost his dad as a teenager. He says that his home life was pretty standard so he doesn't believe there to be a connection to childhood. There must be though...in values or accepted behaviors...not necessarily abuse.

This is what I was trying to say to Hobbyist & Doofus. Our society and culture creates a easy/nice place for addicts, but that doesn&#8217;t means that&#8217;s why they are the way they are, there has to be more to the picture.


I agree, there must. I tend to think that it helps them to justify the behavior and to think it more common than it actually is. We are all exposed to the sexual content of TV and ads, but we don't all choose to do the same thing with it.

relationship and you can&#8217;t stop) or triggers, beliefs about society/gender/sexuality, unmanageability (disarrayed life such as being stagnant with career, low productivity, financial shortages, porr work relationships, etc).


Interesting that you say this. H is successful in his work with regards to salary and promotions, but I don't think that he has satisfaction in the work anymore. He is unproductive at work (doing personal thinks, internet surfing, etc). Of course we all get bored, the key, I believe in in the attitude. He used to leave work in the afternoon to meet internet girls and P's. Oh the other hand, when he was doing the Carnes questionarries, he wrote that he does this also when he has a big accomplishement at work, sort of as a reward. Apparently, I can't win. It covers his highs and his lows.

I can kinda relate a little bit, in the sense that they are doing something for you, make it quite obvious that is the only reason and do not do it whole-heartedly. Or, I am I off the mark? Well, that&#8217;s me speaking from my current situation at the moment. But, then having said all of that, we both know that you can&#8217;t make him do it our way, otherwise it just won&#8217;t be healthy, nor will it be successful.


No, my dear...you are right on the mark. He does it to shut me up. His heart and mind are not in it. It is so that he can say "I did all of this for you...". But no, it isn't successful or even worthwhile until they can take something from it FOR THEMSELVES. I suppose that they just need to go low enough to find that they really do need it. Very sad, because for him to be that low into this isn't something I would care to stick around and see.

He also insists that there is no withdrawl therefore there is no addiction.

Funny that he could say this and then your next sentence is:

Very often recently, my husband is complaining of great urges (he says unacted upon) to visit the massage parlors for HJ's and/or BJ's.

Sounds like withdrawal to me!!

--------------------------------------------------

Aha, good one 99.


More and more I think it is still just denial and that it really isn't a problem (for him).

happens. The prostitutes and whatnot don't make sense to me. There is no act of love and there must be a huge self esteem price to pay for a nameless roll-in-the-hay.
-------------------------------------------------
I'm in the exact same position, but it could just be that we've been hurt the same way.


Well, we definately have been. H once stated that it was good for his self esteem...that he gets compliments from the "women" about sex. It was probably a LB, but I pointed out that he had to PAY them for it.

I understand, life doesn't go on-hold for us to sort things out, and we all have responsibilities, most importantly if you have children.


Ah, yes. And it is challenging to keep them protected from the ugliness of all of it and yet have to explain why you choose to remain in the picture. Kids have a black and white picture of it. Of course I did also, until it infected my life.

Personally, I don't think I'm doing better. I know I'm showing signs of instability. Most disheartening for me (as it is not like me) is that I've started to put away some of the things that I think. Forced by his slow progress to leave for later. This builds resentment and anger for me.

I understand. We both fell into this about the same time, and I don't feel as far along as I expected to be by this time. Of course, if H was honest-to-God doing this fir him, then I think we'd be much further along. The trust is not rebuilding.

Nice to talk with you again. We'll get through this - one way or the other.

SW

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: SpyWife2002 ]</small>

Hey SS.

I don't suppose some of those going to escort services would say so, but in my teenage years I did have a problem with masturbation and it was hell for me. It has been many years since I have had a problem, and I don't really have to fight the feelings now, it is behind me. I say a problem, many here say it is good and natural but

Interesting insight. My H has (had?) an issue with this also. as recently as a fewmonths ago. He was 40. He does admit to doing much of this as a teenager too. I guess that a certain amount of it is natural, but with some it seems to go way past a healthy amount. Of course in MB philosophy, there is none outside of the husband/wife realationship and I'm not sure that I completely buy into that. For those that can't keep it to a minimum, I suppose it is best to eliminate it.

I did not have freedom, I had an addiction. Now I have freedom. Then, I did not have freedom, it had me in slavery. It took me a couple of years and help of a good church leader to break it. I

I'm glad. It is nice to hear sucess stories...it is healthy for my hope.

So, yes, control in marriage, to be used to strengthen love between H and W . Other than that, I agree that you suppress them. Then someday, the time comes when they are not a problem any longer, like any addiction. At least, they no longer have power over our lives , to make us miserable.


Well that is the crux of it isn't it? To not be a slave to our choices.

At least my W didn't have to deal with what you have to deal with. I feel for you and hope you are able to get through this and have things work for you - both of you.

Thanks, SS. I'll hang in there as long as there is some progress.

SW

Hi Doofus.

No. She knows I have a sex problem, that I have been to see prostitutes in the past, and that I have spent way too much time browsing the internet for porn, and masturbating, (and I'm in my 40's!). But the where/when/how often she does not know, and isn't too comfortable with when I try to bring it up. (Which, conveniently, gives little ol' me a way out of having to give a full confession. Shame, shame!)


I know my H (also 40's, well - 41) had a past of this before I met him. I thought it was in his past and was very surprised that he had started up again during our marriage. I still think she ought to know. Maybe as continue along your journey of recovery you will find that you need to come clean about all of it to be free from it. Unlike your wife...I needed to know all of it. All of the ugly facts, right down to names, places and activities. I'm not sure I recommend it as it does give alot of pictures to get past, OTOH, it leaves no unanswered questions.

Lot's of folks are asking, "What is the thrill of having sex with a prostitute?" I think stillseeking hit upon the start of it all, the idea that sex for the sake of sex is okay, cool, and even maybe wonderful. Once you seperate sexual activity from responsibility, you can have all sorts of "fun". I can ask a prostitute to do all sorts of weird, gross things, just for the novelty of it, that would offend someone else. So it's a curiosity type appeal, along with the suspense of wondering what it will be like with a different person.

Well, it doesn't thrill me to hear that but it does help explain I suppose. My H insists that for the most past, his activites were "standard". Just the thought of STD's and the number of partners that a P has been with would send me running. I beleive that some things are better left as fantasies and couldn't EVER bring myself to do that. When my H was found out, he said, in an encouraging way, that there are men that are P's too. Almost insinuating (sp?) that I should give it a try rather than knock it. My H is good looking and somewhat successful so I think that it has to be about power, control and intimacy avoidance. (Yes, I borrowed it from Espoir -- power, control and intimacy avoidance). It does sum up the things that I beleive my H was gaining from these encounters.

there are some sex-for-hire women out there who are really lots of fun to be with. I can't deny this.


H has shared this too. We'd rather hear differently you know? Thanks for your honesty.

But the point is that I am married, I have a significant other who expects and depends upon me to behave in a way that does NOT include having sex with other women, regardless of the circumstances. It is because of this that I am stopping seeing prostitutes, not because I did not enjoy it.


Well good and very true. And you expect the same from her. It is what marriage is about. There is lots of other fun to be had, I'm sure all A's had their perks at some point. In the grand scheme though, they just aren't worth it.

I love my wife, and I value my relationship with her more than my temporary pleasure in someone else's arms.

Please tell her that.

My free advice is NOT to dwell upon why your straying spouse used escort services, because, after all, if it didn't feel good, (s)he wouldn't have done it, correct? I am going to focus on the great and wonderful aspects of being in a strong relationship, and avoid those behaviors and attitudes which weaken this relationship, much in the way that we eat our vegetables and exercise, rather than stuffing our face with cake and laying on cushions all day.

Some analogy you have there. There are many good, good things about your fruits and vegetables you know. They'll protect you from diseases too and you'll live a longer, more fulfilling life.

"In all honesty, if I were not in a relationship I don't know what I would feel about prostitution right now. I might even still use it, and possibly publicly sing its praises."

Grrr!! I can't believe I wrote that garbage!! I must still be delusional, because I know for a fact that for me such behavior is a one-way ticket to misery.


Look!!!!! You can see the light. I think that you are on the right path, but think about sharing all, ok? Otherwise when you are "recovered" you will have fixed it all, except that. Fix it all, so that you can have the relationship with your wife that you both can grow old comfortably in.

This is why I don't like to reminisce (sp?) about past indiscretions (sp?); the mind tends to remember the good stuff, and discard all the creepy and disgusting stuff.

But you have to work through it. Just remember that the good stuff had a huge price, and that you could have had the good without the ugly if your efforts were put in your own back yard.

Thanks. You aren't my husband, are you?

SW

<small>[ October 31, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: SpyWife2002 ]</small>

Hello,

I hope everyone is doing well.

Been busy and finding it just a little bit hard to maintain this facade.

Doofus:

I am happy and glad to hear that you have started to look at what you are doing, and how this may have consequences and how your actions (or selfishness) may affect your W.
It sounds like you really do love and enjoy your W's. Though, she sounds like she is quite different to myself (eg I'd want to know everything). I'm wondering if there are conflict avoidance personalities at play?
Have you two been to MC?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I love my wife, and I value my relationship with her more than my temporary pleasure in someone else's arms.

My free advice is NOT to dwell upon why your straying spouse used escort services, because, after all, if it didn't feel good, (s)he wouldn't have done it, correct? I am going to focus on the great and wonderful aspects of being in a strong relationship, and avoid those behaviors and attitudes which weaken this relationship, much in the way that we eat our vegetables and exercise, rather than stuffing our face with cake and laying on cushions all day.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe my SO bc we’ve been through some very emotional sessions in the past 9 mths. He’s told me things that I believe most WS would not tell, and he has volunteered painful details too. He said did not enjoy the sex. There was the release of ejaculating sometimes, but not always as he was quite drunk every time. For this reason, I feel like I am in a different position. I can’t seem to find anyone who can relate and quite me.
Do you all think this is possible?
I told him about what you said regarding enjoying it, otherwise you wouldn’t do it. He said he can see how this can be the case, but he was not doing it for that reason. He was trying to destroy his life, and he has always felt that he did not deserve anything good (ie ME), nor to be happy. From the age of 11-12 he has imagined that he would die by the time he was 30.
Oh boy, can you see the damage all this has caused?
I know he is telling the truth, yet due to all the lies in the past, I can’t let myself trust him. I feel like he doesn’t deserve me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is why I don't like to reminisce (sp?) about past indiscretions (sp?); the mind tends to remember the good stuff, and discard all the creepy and disgusting stuff. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doofus, this was what my SO said too. He’d get really very drunk, feel depressed, or some male friends would started the game of perving and he’d talk himself into remembering it was an okay experience (ie twist the truth), even though he now tells me it really wasn’t.
This isgood, bc I need someone else to confirm some of the things he has said as I really find it hard to believe him, and understand what he tells me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I appologize for my prior post. Please take anything you read on this forum with a huge grain of salt, as some of us are still "fog bound" from time to time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with SW here. The only way you’ll get yourself out of the fog is to come clean. Well, that’s what my SO found to be for himself.
He's been lying for a few years now, and thought he would simply leave and die/destroy himself soon after that.
But, since he's told me everything, he has not relapsed and is 100% clear about what he wants for himself, and for his life with me (ie I deserve better, and some, than the b**[censored] that he has been).

Please find yourself, and decide what you truly want. I have one request I keep saying to him, "if he had wanted that lifestyle then he should have done the right thing and left me". I wished he had done this.

SpyWife2002:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have tried to help H explpore this as well. I did find that he was exposed to pronography at a very young age and rememebers being embarrased by it, yet peeking at it. Also, he lost his dad as a teenager. He says that his home life was pretty standard so he doesn't believe there to be a connection to childhood. There must be though...in values or accepted behaviors...not necessarily abuse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you got me into this! (but, you and Cerri have been my sanity). You know the abandonment issues at age 5, but what you don’t know is that the stepfather was a chronic SA (and the father too, IMO). Though, I don’t believe my SO is a SA, being raised by one then adoring another, must have rubbed off some. He saw porn at a very young age too. This is called non-contact abuse, along with voyeurism/exhibitionism around the house, etc (P. Carnes “Don’t Call it Love”, eg walking around in the nude).
Check your email, I’ll outline what I think from what SO has told me.
He has no anger towards his parents, though he admits on a couple of isolated incidences that he has some misgivings for some things.
I want him to have it all out with them, so that they know what’s happened to him from his own words. He’s also said, if I don’t forgive him, he knows he’ll blame his dad.
Like you I want him to do some things to speed up or begin some healing for himself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Interesting that you say this. H is successful in his work with regards to salary and promotions, but I don't think that he has satisfaction in the work anymore. He is unproductive at work (doing personal thinks, internet surfing, etc). Of course we all get bored, the key, I believe in in the attitude. He used to leave work in the afternoon to meet internet girls and P's. Oh the other hand, when he was doing the Carnes questionarries, he wrote that he does this also when he has a big accomplishement at work, sort of as a reward. Apparently, I can't win. It covers his highs and his lows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s different for different people.
Sorry to say that both examples were given in the books I’ve read (ie leaving work is acting out or sign of unmanageability, and rewarding himself is a distorted belief system, rationalising it).
But, caution is needed I think. Some people have a way of thinking everything written is relevant to them, hence the straight forward diagnosis, and the label is placed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, my dear...you are right on the mark. He does it to shut me up. His heart and mind are not in it. It is so that he can say "I did all of this for you...". But no, it isn't successful or even worthwhile until they can take something from it FOR THEMSELVES. I suppose that they just need to go low enough to find that they really do need it. Very sad, because for him to be that low into this isn't something I would care to stick around and see. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, I stuck around, but I admit that my pride (my #1 sin) is getting in the way.
Hitting rock bottom for my SO was relapsing after he had made that final decision Aug/01, but didn't confees to me. This led him to being so upset with himself that he said he was going to let me free (break-up), and finishing himself off. Then, he realised that he didn’t want life without me even in the short-term, but he knew he couldn't undo what he'd done already. So he did the unimaginable even to himself, ie accepted the female “friend’s” (who he calls “whore”) manipulation (as I explained before, her pretence of needing to see him was bc the guy she was in love with ask another girl our, even though she had picked and slept with another guy just 2 wks prior, then was in another State trying to pickup with some other guy just the wk before this awful day).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, we definately have been. H once stated that it was good for his self esteem...that he gets compliments from the "women" about sex. It was probably a LB, but I pointed out that he had to PAY them for it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ha, this came up for us too.
SO who said “One part why he probably did it was an ego-thing at the time bc of what his father had advised him” (ie SF with as many women as possible), but SO also said it was “pathetic bc he paid for it all”. (I don't think he got any compliments bc it was plain vanilla. He wasn't interested in enjoying any "fantasy" game either. But, one stupid wh*re gave it to him unsafely. He never asked-nor rejected <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . I think the stupid cow wanted more from him bc she tried to give him her personal number, which he said he was going to use the 2nd time, but went though the agent instead and deleted it fro his cell).
Like your H, SO is rather good-looking. As mentioned some colleagues of his told me how he thought he was gay for turning down some of the advances he got, but SO said he never found anyone he was interested in as he was in-love with me, so there was never any danger of finding someone else. And hiring P’s was the only way for none emotional, no strings attached SF to destroy his life.

Doofus,

Perhaps you could explain this one: Given the things he said, and he also added that no one EVER turned him on like me, could it be just the fear of commitment and the bad advice that confused him to that state?
I’m not a guy, I’m not afraid of commitment, nor am I scared of monogamy, so I don’t understand what he says.

Oh God, will I ever understand any of this?
My pride keeps telling me to throw him out, and move on... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
He is now the guy he should have been (loving, committed beyond what I would have even asked for before, giving, devoted, clear, focus, certain, etc), but I can't forget and forgive him for his mistakes...
I'm losing it...

eli, spywife, others:

I can't explain anything, because my thoughts/feelings/urges keep wildly fluctuating from day to day. That may be why my posts seem so schizoid.

At this point I don't even know if I am in recovery or not, or just trying to delay an inevitable total loss of control.

This past Saturday I was feeling poor physically, so to cheer myself up I looked at some porn online for about an hour. (STUPID, STUPID, STUPID, I know!!) For the rest of the weekend I was driven by lust. Sex, (I can't call satisfying lust "making love"), with my wife Sunday morning wasn't enough; I had to masterbate Sunday evening as well. And the worst part was I was completely out of control. If the brothels I knew about were open on Sundays, I would have gone to them.

I know what is the right thing to do, but sometimes I'm just overcome with urges to engage in this self-destructive behavior. I'm like a drug or gambling addict, I guess, and in this condition really can't offer advice or insight that is worth anything

Get yourself and your spouse talking to cerri. She's a nice person who has concrete suggestions to help with this problem.