</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SpyWife2002:
Hello Cerri, KaylaAndy and others who may be able to help.
As the wife of an SA I would guess that you two have been in a similar situation and therefore I turn to you for answers.
My H is in recovery. I say recovery because he denies any acting out since DDay. He does attend a weekly SA meeting, but he views all of the people there as losers and appears to mostly sit in judgement of them rather than to identify with the issues presented. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi spywife, I'm kasey a grateful recovering sexual compulsive addict. I'm sorry i didn't get the message clearly when my wife tried to "refer" me to come comment on your thread. She did mention you were in difficulty to me but i didn't make the connect that i was supposed to come to your rescue. There is always so much lost in communications sometimes. the martian venitian translator isn't always working ya know. So.... I'm here now, for some reason i wanted to see where my wife had been online today and followed her history cookies to this thread. Now i'm here I'll see what i can offer to you. As always consider the source. I'm not sure i'm not fog bound from euphoric recall sometimes myself. There is always room for uncertainty in this mess.
So he's in denial. Well it's not encouraging for you I know but it's typical. In fact in 8 years of SA i've been in now I'd say that 90% or more of the people that mysteriously find their way into a SA or SCA recovery room sit in the back for about a year thinking and feeling exactly what your h is thinking and feeling. They think they've reached the bottom of humanity rather than grasp that they've just been given a lifeline to safety and joy. There is a **** load of negative energy that puts blinders on us deviants and it takes a long time before the blinders start to come off. One fine day it happens, you're sitting there listening to some loser babble on about his sickness and what is obvious insanity to you and it dawns on you oh my god i'm doing the same thing he is! Something happens deep inside you that day and you keep it very secret even from yourself but you decide that you've got to get a life somehow and the terror of it all sets in. Then a few more months pass and you've attended meetings hit and miss trying to hide from yourself and from the truth and realize that you're going to have to open your mouth in the damn meeting or it's going to kill you and you make your first share and usually say something to the effect that, "i don't know why i'm even here or even talking about this because i'm not sure it even applies to me" and everyone in the room either splits a gut laughing or manages to keep a straight face and simply smiles at you with compassion and that unfathomable empathy that one suffer has for another. I don't know everything about denial i do however know that this is a scarey deal and until a sense of emotional safety has grown in connection with a recovery influence somewhere it's unlikely that the truth will be tolerable to the weak heart. We are love cripples and anything that threatens our puny self love skills is likely to be shunned at all costs. it's not until you get to see these loosers who keep coming back begin to love and treat themselves with respect thru the grace of a higher power that you realize that my god it's possible to be changed somehow and "if they can do it perhaps i can too." It really stings when you see people that you have judged as losers put together more clean time than you have. (forgive me a meniacle chuckle) It's really not a laughing matter. none the less denial may be a strong brick wall but it's built on a sandy foundation so it eventually falls, sometimes sooner sometimes later and sometimes piece by piece. Of that you can be assured even if you can't predict the date and time of the collapse of the wall or the means whereby it comes down. If i could say anything to you about that it would be to encourage you to trust in God who know full well that denial is real and who knows exactly how to ripe the wall down from the inside for every person. You can't take down the wall from the outside it has to be an inside job and as painful as it is to be on the outside and feel helpless and powerless over it all even so you can beleive and even know that God will do in his way and his time what you and your SA can't do for him yourselves. The wall will fall eventually one brick at a time if necessary. You will find there is work for you to do yourself on your own side enough to keep you busy without you're having to deal with that wall. Turn it over to God and go on with your life citizen. That's the best thing you can do for that wall (imho) is to give it to god and walk on.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although the Meadows is practically in our back yard, he does not view himself as a cantidate for their work and refuses to pursue that avenue. He's read a couple of Carnes books.
I am unsatisfied with his progress because clearly he does this as a step toward reconciliation with me, not as a problem within his life that needs to be addressed because as he continues to insist that all men do this, women just don't know about it. It really isn't abnormal. We are talking about prostitutes, massage parlor hand jobs, paid BJ's, etc. We are also talking about a good number of "women" than spans two marriages. He also insists that there is no withdrawl therefore there is no addiction.
Very often recently, my husband is complaining of great urges (he says unacted upon) to visit the massage parlors for HJ's and/or BJ's. At first, I have tried to be supportive that he called me instead of acting out. That is what he is supposed to do right? I thank him for letting me know and that I was glad that he made the appropriate choices and I have told him that it was trust building for him to share this with me. Not that I have any restored trust, quite the contrary, but it is something that could build trust as other aspects improve, this last piece I haven't shared but is what I feel. My support in waning.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">let's talk about support. let's talk about sanity and insanity cause that's what we're dealing with here. your husbands insistences are coming from an insane mind which is precipitated from a cold and lost sickened heart. a hopeless heart. a love cripple. this sick heart is not able yet to feel love and uses sex as a substitute. it's very confused to call lust love but it doesn't know love and lust has been it's only emotion for longer than it can remember. lust is a cruel parasitic tyrant. it lives to feed and to consume. it is ruthless and cunning baffling and powerful. it lies and decieves, it waits for no one or nothing. it is the antithisis of selfish demands and being a parasite it kills the host that feeds it by taking everything that is supposed to nourish the host and wasting it on it's own insatiable appetites. it's like a worm in your gut that drives you to feed it constantly and the more you feed it the more it drives you and the less you feel anything. It is like drinking salt water on the ocean in a life boat. The salt water mocks your thirst and deceives you to drink more while it sucks the life force out of your cells and dries you up so you die of dehydration while floundering on sea water. What can you do to support someone in this situation?
1- make a stand against lust.
i've read on this thread where people talk about mastrubation being ok if it's not overdone. I can't tell you how insane this notion is for someone with an addiction. How little poision can you drink and have it be good for you? There is only one answer...NONE ZIP ZERO NOTTA
We're talking about rationalization here. Addicts can rationalize anything and usually do. The answer is not an inch. There must be limits and bounds that must be respected and established.
Consider this. Passion is like a fire which if kept in the confines of the furnace warms and blessed the home but which if allowed to catch upon the walls of the home will destroy it. So tell me how much fire is it good to let catch on the walls? Which wall of the basement do you want to designate as ok to burn up periodically? Do you realize from this analogy that you are playing with fire and destruction? If an addict could do just a little and keep it from spreading to not destroy the whole home it still would be nuts to catch a wall of your home on fire periodically wouldn't it? it's gonna stink up the house with smoke, it's gonna char the face of the wall. no one in their right mind would dream of doing such a thing let alone doing it. Yet in terms of how many people view sexuality this is precisely what they advocate as "reasonable" or "normal". I'm sorry but if that's reason or norms then it's an insane bunch of foolishness that governs our societal paradigms and since we're talking about denial let's admit that society is in denial is it not? I mean how well is this rationalization working in our society? It's not building trust is it? Is it warming our homes or burning them down? So denial runs deep within addicts AND in the world. Make the stand draw the line and put your best troops on the defense of that boundary.
Our boundaries about mastrubation is that it is only permitted within the foreplay of our marital union to be shared with each other as part of our lovemaking. I don't do it alone and she doesn't do it alone and call ourselves sexually sober. That's the line. that's the limit. No exceptions. No rationalizations under any and all circumstances. I need alot of fellowship support and higher power to hold that line but the line is not negotiable. I have an allergic reaction to anything outside those bounds like an alcoholic to alcohol. That's just the way it is. Like it or not that's what I choose to accept today and every day i must choose to accept and abide it again and again or rationalization will overwhelm and destroy our home. I for one am tired of the smoke and the damages of fire and the repair of burned walls. It doesn't have to be that way. It's a choice.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was not an isolated conversation, it is repetitive. Tonight he called to tell me that he is being pulled there and can't say no much longer. He also told me that had he not had a commitment to his daughter last night, that he would have been there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yep it is scarey. it's also progressive and degenerative. he can't count on that commitment to his daughter that he has today to keep his feet on the path of faithfulness tomorrow. He's grasping to keep love in his life but will lose the battle if it tries to fight it alone. He can't treat his lustful parasitic invador on his own. if he could he wouldn't be where he is now.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My suggestions are to
go to an SA meeting . He says doesn't help, all they talk about is how they acted out last night and they disgust him.
Call your sponsor . He says that the people who have offered to sponsor him are so beneath him and that he cannot turn to someone whom disgusts him, therefore he still does not have a sponsor.
Find a group that works for you . He isn't motivated to look for new groups. This was the second or third group he found.
Go to the Meadows . He says that is a brush off and that he needs me to help him work through this. I tell him that they are the experts, I don't know what to tell him, they do.
From there it turns ugly basically with a threat that he can't continue to say no.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">your suggestions are right on the mark. The thing that is missing is his focus is on them rather than on himself. Of course they disgust him. Fact is he disgusts himself too and it's uncomfortable to be that disgusted with oneself. He's doing what is called white knuckling and dabbling. he's working a half assed program and trying to cling to old beliefs but he's a newcomer too. He doesn't know what he doesn't know about the parasite in his gut. AND he doesn't know God yet either, he thinks he's God. What he needs to learn is that he's powerless and he doesn't WANT to accept and admit that he's powerless. he still wants to beleive that he can deal with this himself in with and thru his own solutions which in his mind is to use you for his outlet. He believes that his parasite can be satisfied thru you giving it to him where and whenever he wants it and that if you would just put out on demand everything would be fine because he really doesn't have a problem yet just you do. That's where he is emotionally. it's not about mentally it's emotionally. He's crippled emotionally and can't yet accept anything more than that. That's where almost every married newcomer to SA is emotionally. He needs to keep going back even though disgusted and even though he is so damn aarogant toward sponsors he needs to call them and scores of other recovery people in the fellowship. i'm sorry until he's willing to suck it up and give in he's going to be taught a very painful lesson about trying to stop the tides with the strength of your own puny arm. He may have to stubbornly lose it all before he gets the message that he's got a problem HE can't control alone. You can expect repeated slips and more boundary crossings and destruction until nothing recognizable of the man you fell in love with is left. You may have to take steps to protect your own safety and that of your children from physical or perpetration abuse before he gets over his foolish pride and ego. You're in for a nasty bit of weather spywife. You can pray for the weather and God's intervention but you can't control the weather so you'd best batton down the hatches and prepare for one hell of a storm while you pray.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what else to do <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . It is very draining on my LB to here that he needs his money-for-sex girls. It further reduces my trust and makes me even more apprehensive to meet any SF needs.
I don't know what else to say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . I'm not going to do the co-dependent thing, I'm not going to do it for him. It isn't possible. It is his matter and HE needs to address it for real. Here I hear a little Cerri voice in my head that says planB, planB but I am sure that will put him right over there with his hookers and that will be the end of that, period.
Any words of wisdom would be very helpful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my wisdom is questionable but i have experience in these matters i'm willing to share. take what helps and leave the rest. You can't expect yourself to meet unrealistic needs and lust is an insatiable parasite. Until it is gone you are not feeding him anyway you're just a hooker substitute that doesn't offend his limited sense of right and wrong which btw is not based in reality or morality at this point but based in amorality or the absense of any moral code. it's all a bunch of mixed and nonsensical messages in his head from his childhood mixed with hollywood and madison avenue and the lies the kids told each other in the locker rooms in jr. high school. He doesn't have a damn clue what is right and what is wrong and he thinks he's got it all worked out. don't expect that crap to sort itself out for several years AFTER he gets and keeps his butt in the program of recovery and works his [censored] off for it. Sorting out all the bullsh*t messages and doublespeak about sex seems to be a never ending all consuming process for me sometimes and i've been in this 8 years now. I can tell you some of what healthy sex is now but i know ive still got foggy illusions clouded by lust where love doesn't govern and some vague emotional imprint of some version of some 1960's porn movie dominates. It takes higher power to sort this crap out and to kill the parasite in my gut that will allow any appropriate attachment sexually within my marriage. It's getting better but it's not an overnight outpatient surgery. It's a long haul baby a long haul. It's not an impossible crossing. Noah went in the arc, Johna lived in a whale, Saints have walked in firey furnaces and if God is with them they came thru it unscathed. Just don't expect yourself to walk thru fire alone without God beside you either. Get to your s-anon and cosa meetings as often as you can. Get yourself a sponsor to call. Seek and ye shall find knock and it shall be opened unto you what you should do on any given day when you need it you will find you have it thru grace because God loves YOU too. never forget that. this is not all about his needs you have needs too that are going to have to be met thru God's plan for you while your resident love cripple finds his bottom. What you can't get from your husband that you want and need from him God will have to provide manna for you and he will. He has for my wife while i've been out of comission and he will for you too.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cerri, plase still address the POJA questions in your copious spare time.
KaylaAndy, I know that your H posts here and if you feel that he is better equipped to answer my questions, please refer him. CerrisH too.
I will pose my concerns to the CoSA group, but I find that their advice does not coincide with the MB philosophies in which I very much believe.
Anyone else, all constructive advice is welcome.
We are separated due to these issues so my follow up of his activites is very limited. Accountability is limited to his honesty which has a very bad track record. He often uses the catch-all excuse of "I thought it was over" which is a decision that he independently makes on a regular basis. To him it is justification for any and all bad choices.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that's typical. sorry but it's typical.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, thank you for any outside perspective. It's pretty dark in here.
SpyWife
(who doesn't really spy anymore, just tries to believe in the Let Go and Let God approach).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THAT is WONDERFUL!!! spying will only hurt you. you keep trying to beleive in the let go and let god approach sister. you keep that focus. you take this one day at a time and turn it over and continue to get the support you need to turn it over and to follow the course YOUR higher power will have you follow. Remember it's darkest before the dawn but the sunrise is certain. God will not abandon your husband nor will he abandon you. Believe that this is not something that is difficult for God. It may be impossible for us but to him it's no sweat. He waits for the temperature for the silver to reach the right point and he refines and purifies the silver with the precision of a perfect diety. The fires of hell of this addiction do in fact serve a purpose to temper and refine our characters removing our impatience and lust like dross when it finally comes to the surface. All hope is not vain and all redemption is not lost it's just going to come in it's own time.
I've read on this thread where childhood things impact and have a bearing on all of this. That is exactly right but it is still incomplete. EVERYTHING has a bearing and impact on this. Everything from the the locker room to the late night pay per vu tv to the priest sex abuse scandles. Everything that contributes to the formation of belief systems has an impact on sexual sanity and sobriety. Everything. it's only when we turn it ALL over to God that we can begin to get it sorted out and the truth separates from the fiction.
I'm sorry you're hurting. I'm sorry for every sex addicts wife or husband (BS's come in both genders btw lust is a non-gender specific parasite).
I hope something i may have said or shared gives you more hope than despair. I know the present situation is hurtful so do what you can to protect yourself physically if necessary and definately emotionally. You're not at fault for needing to feel you can trust before you can feel sexual. That's an indication that you're sexually healthy yourself no matter what your h may say to the contrary. No woman in her right mind and heart wants to be an "it" and "used". You want a relationship first and sex second and that's sane sister, that's good. Keep it that way. My wife's commitment to that priority is something i'm very grateful for today and has been a major blessing in my recovery to this point.
I wish i'd gotten here sooner to say this and offer you this support. I've been slippery myself lately and struggling. I'm working my recovery program for all i'm worth lately. This time of year is a hard time for me. My wife's birthday is in this month and i've always found myself sexually obcessed at this time.
I'm stifling the diabolical temptation to get her another "how to sex self help book" this year. and just trying to keep working my own program and get to a next level of sanity myself. Where i put the security and connection ahead of the actual physical acts and games. I hope i gain a victory over lust this year that has illuded me in previous years. I'm praying for it. I'm making alot of phone calls to other recovering addicts. I'm trying to keep the focus on myself because i have codependency issues independent of sexuality issues too. Those codependency issues are unmanageable to me alone. I'm on a different sheet of music from Dr. harley on codependency. I have alot of growing up to do and getting my OWN feet under me IN SOBRIETY and i don't need someone to tell me that doing so is going to destroy my marriage.
thanks for letting me share.
<small>[ November 05, 2002, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Kasey1 ]</small>
