Hi Everyone !

I never thought I'd ever come to a site like this but ever since my world has been turned upside down I've been reading this forum and listening to everyone's experiences with great interest. I now have come to a point in my life where I have the strength to bring my own story out and look for any help, advice and support from so many with so much pain.

I'll try to keep it short(however I'm longwinded to a fault). I have a great life, I have four wonderful, beautiful and healthy children that I adore with my very soul. I have an incredibly wonderful, stimulating and well paying job that I enjoy and am very good at.

I have a wife that I love and adore with my very being. She is everything that I am not...the ying to my yang, sort of like. Where my weaknesses lie, she is very strong and vice versa. I have been with her since my senior year in high school and have enjoyed my life with her even when times were tough early on(tough times??? at least I thought they were tough back then) We have shared so much together, our sense of humor and conversation, problem solving and creating things, our children and our home and everyone has always commented on how "we never argue" and we're the "Perfect Couple".

I noticed a big change in my wife back in the winter of 2001-02 and it really became noticeable beginning in February. I spent months trying to figure her behavior out-belly button piercing, dressing incredibly sexy, drinking Much more than I have ever seen her drink, acting very out of her character. I began to sense a certain something between her and another "friend" of mine. We did numerous things with their family, dinners, parties, etc. I would question her on this(More on this later, As this is a BIG problem for me) and she would deny everything and say I was paranoid and mental.

It just continued on to where she announce she was no longer going to where underwear and then bought numerous sexy sets of underwear. She proceeded to become very withdrawn and go to our bedroom with the door closed to use the phone. I'm sure you can see where this going. I would ask and she'd say " I'm talking to such and such" meaning a female friend of hers.

I'll try to make a long story short but unbeknownst to me, his wife noticed the exact same things in him and eventually we started putting two and two together and thankfully(July 7th) She(his wife) walked in on him while he was talking to my wife on the phone and confronted him on it. He confessed to having been talking secretly with my wife since February. They then decided to bring me into the loop and told me that they had been talking on and off since February. First about his marital problems and then my wife felt she could confide our problems with him and it snowballed from there.

Since that time, I have found an email that my wife lied about initally(to him at work). I have found a phone card hidden in an out of the purse that and finally she admitted that he would call her from work or vice versa and sometimes he called her on her cell phone.

She has insisted that he is just a "great" friend. Excuse me while I puke for a minute,, ah that feels better. She insists there was no physical or emotional affair and that all they did was merely talk. Since then she has occasionally told me things like they have a connection, he is a great friend etc...but maintains that they only talked.

This is where my problem lies, how appropriate that I use that word. I find it extremely difficult to move on and get past this aspect.

I find it extremely troubling to get over how and or why they were so secretive in their conversations and I have become a complete ******* now from time to time. I say sarcastic and hurtful things that I know I shouldn't say. I have said many things that I don't mean, I have said many things that I know I regret. I have yelled and cursed. I have even grabbed and pushed my wife with all the anger and frustration that has built up inside of me thinking about all the conversations they had and how she lied to me and how it all now threatens to tear our family, something that we both have worked immensely hard at, apart.

I have started counseling for me and now want to refocus my counseling on my own anger management, so that I can prevent myself from letting my own anger demons overtake me. I have since stopped drinking which did us absolutely no good in stopping my anger from raging when I would think about it. I can discuss issues with my wife calmly when I'm straight and sober. And I was not a big drinker by any stretch, it just made a bad situation worse.

Ok, I'll end this and continue on later with my story, but what advice or help can anyone offer me? Could her "just friends" be honest and sincere? How can I become a better man and forgive the heartache and rebuild my life with her even stronger than before?

I want advice on plan A as I want nothing more than to be successful with my wife and enjoy a long and happy(again) life with her and no one else. I owe it to her and myself and my children.

Trying...sounds like you are really trying...good for you. Rather or not your W and this "friend" actually DID anything, there was a betrayal. She crossed over lines which should never be crossed when interacting with a friend. She compounded this with adding in lies and making this part of her life hidden from you and the marriage.

Is your W committed to making the marriage work? Have you ended the friendship which the two of you shared with this other couple? If so, then Plan A is WONDERFUL for focusing on the positives aspects of your marriage and your spouse. Read about Plan A and discover how easy it is to love bust, even when that isn't what you wish to do. Often we are doing so by habit...a bad one. And how simple it can be to add love "deposits" to your "love account". It's also about working to make YOUR life better, having nothing to do with your spouse. Learning and growning within ourselves. Of course, your spouse benefits from this "new and improved you"...but the main benefit is that you are happier, more focused on what is important to you, and more contented with yourself. Which does tend to make you more attractive to others...hence the benefit of making your spouse notice the positives in you.

Yes, her "just friends" could be the truth, however, it may not be. Also, even if true, for a healthy marriage to flourish, you keep private those issues within the marriage which are private. You do NOT share, without the knowledge and agreement of your spouse, with an outsider. If she needs a shoulder to lean on...then she needs to talk to you, discuss either marriage counseling or individual counseling...she does not need a "friend" of the other sex holding her hand and giving her "advice" with no professional level of dealing with marriage issues. jmho She should also NOT be willing to listen to other's marriage issues...she should steer them towards professional help and remove herself from listening.

How can you rebuild your life with your W? Begin counseling, both individual and marriage. READ and research all the information here. Take from it what works for you and your W. Discuss it with her. There are lots of items here which can help you help yourself and your W.

A marriage can survive! It isn't always easy, but it can be worth the effort.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the reply as I try to make heads or tails of my life.

I'll try to answer some of your questions-No, we haven't broken off contact with the other couple. It has lessened considerably but we still see them at least twice a week as they play on an adult sport team with us. We have a rather large circle of friends in the same circle and they are oblivious to any of our problems or so they seem.

They broke the news to us on July 7th and the very next week, she(his wife went to visit family w/o her kids) and he called and invited her over with my kids while I was at work and she went. No phone call to me at work or nothing. When I got home I found out where she was and went right over. Sure enough she was pulling out right at the time I should have been getting home.

There has been incident after incident exactly like this that has tortured me, on average, every three to four days ever since. He is a coach for one of my sons soccer teams and I am the assistant coach. Guess who shows up and helps with practice when I cannot make it because of work? Yep, my wife.

I've been told the whole nine yards-"I love you but I'm not in love with you", "he's just a really good friend", " I've been unhappy for a long time" " it's all about me now" " I just want to be happy"

I never fully realized how much I wasn't fulfilling many of her needs and would desperately like to relearn how to do those things but her wall is built and she refuses to let it come down. This past weekend we had a dinner function that, again I was afraid to go to because she totally acts like I don't exist at, and I see him go to the bathroom and then her go to the bathroom. From my seat a couple minutes later I could see him laughing and talking with someone and just kinda shook my head. After he returned to the tables, I got up to head to the bathroom when I seen my wife leave the little alcove he had been talking into and enter the women's bathroom.(There was no place else for her in that alcove unless she went into the men's john) I asked her about it and she had that same(deer in headlights look) and I asked her to be honest and she said yes that she had been headed to the bathroom when he called her over.

A different time I had gotten up to mingle and when I returned they were talking and I noticed her give him a playful little light kick with her foot into his leg. She then noticed me walking towards the table. I sat down and asked her if she had to do what she had just done and instantly the wall came up and the night went downhill from there.

My life is littered with these "little harmless?" moments over the past eight months and it has made it extremely difficult to move on and get better for both myself and for my marriage.

We still play on the same team although I am really considering quitting and letting her go alone because emotionally I feel like shutting down, it hurts far less that way. Still looking for answers....

TryToBeABetterMan,

Your story is eerily similar to mine, although my W and I have no kids.

In late summer of '01, we moved to my hometown. One of my friends became "close" to my wife during the winter of '01 and '02. One weekend in Spring (she teaches and has spring break), they went to visit another mutual friend (OM's sister). Another friend was supposed to go, so I allowed it, but he backed out at last minute. During the weekend, I found some stuff that confirmed EA (two months before, I had been told that she wasn't in love with me anymore, never loved me, she feels nothing for me, etc.). I went through mental hell debating myself if there was PA as well, seeing every sign that there was, but still holding out trust for her, holding hope that she would not do this because her parents M split because of an A when she was very young. I analyzed every move they made, and could not make heads or tails until one day I found proof of PA on the computer.

I know exactly how you feel.

Here were the signs she gave in order:

-numerous instant messaging conversations with OM late at night.
-mutual activities with OM (even going shopping just to help out).
-relationship progressed when too much alcohol caused hand-holding
-numerous instant messaging conversations (including W locking me out of room)
-W tells me no longer in love, etc.
-I find proof of EA (her in love with OM), confront, assured nothing is going on
-I find sites of highly sexual nature on computer that she visits
-Changes to very sexy underwear
-Massive weight loss by W (weight loss for me too)
-Changes in musical tastes
-Changes in behavior (W unrecognizeable at times)
-numerous statements by W that things were going to work out
-vacation with me (W on phone with OM EVERY DAY!!!)
-no anniversary card for me (in fact, he dropped her off at house after I got home from work)
-no birthday card for me
-discovery of PA (had much proof)
-asked W questions about PA (did it happen in our house?) W says no, even though I have proof (yes)
-W says it went from March to May
-Later discover bank statement proving it went to August
-Tell W to cut contact or move out
-W tells some mutual friends that she is leaving me to be with OM.
-W doesn't leave.
-Just found evidence of continued contact a few nights ago.
-Seems like the only night I received a lot of concern for my feelings because I told her I didn't have to take it anymore.
-She says she wants to work this out...

I'm not going to tell you she is or isn't having an A, but go with your gut instinct, mine was right all along but I needed proof. If your "friend" is doing this to you, he is not your friend. He is a coward and a scumbag for doing this to his own and your marriage. After he and my W told others of their plans, I sent him a pretty nasty email telling him what I thought of him (this after he had sent an apology email after discovery). You cannot separate them. Move on with or without your wife. If she makes plans that you don't want to do, find something else. To get respect, you have to demand it (not by stating you need respect, but by showing). I'm still learning this lesson and I can point out numerous times I've screwed up. The other people on this board should help you out.

I hope things are innocent in your W's case and wish you the best. They weren't in mine, but I was actually relieved to know the truth.

Sorry for the length of this, but I felt compelled to write since I related with your story.

I think you need to stop all contact with the OM and his wife, even if they are in your circle of friends. If that means that you and your wife quit the team...so be it. (Not just you...you BOTH need to quit...is she willing to do this??)

The evidence of her changed behaviour, sexy underware ,not in love with you, secretive phone calls would indicate that your wife is up to her neck in an affair. Straycat is giving you good advice to stop all contact with this couple and to stop socializing in this couple's social circle. I would also advise you to bug your telephone line by attaching a voice activated recorder somewhere she cannot find it.If you can afford it I would use a P.I. to help you investigate. Only with truth can you heal a marriage that is broken.

"Ok, I'll end this and continue on later with my story, but what advice or help can anyone offer me? Could her "just friends" be honest and sincere? How can I become a better man and forgive the heartache and rebuild my life with her even stronger than before?"

I honor you for staying true to yourself and attempting to increase your awareness of what is going on in your marriage by sharing your story with us.

You have helped me a great deal because I believe that if I didn't take the steps I did, my marriage would have continued down the path to where you appear to be, and it still may. "Just friends" is the exact phrase my W uses but she also added, "close friend, like a brother, like family, I love him like family", and finally "don't take this friendship away from me".

I believe now that in my W's eyes she was sincere about all these statements and if I wasn't extremely honest to her in both verbal and written form about how her relationship with OM was affecting me and our marriage, she would have continued in good faith until it was too late.

The following things helped me a great deal:

1) Write down your marriage boundaries
2) Write examples of where your W crossed those boundaries.
3) Write what will happen if she continues to cross those boundaries. (I put that I would seriously reconsider our long term commitment)

Also communicate what you believe are her important needs and how you intend to make changes in your life to meet those needs.

Start making clear changes and every week ask your W how she thinks you are doing.

My W still hasn't admitted to any indescretion and probably never will but she has increased her communication to me about OM and has decided not to work with him or move on to his property. Last night she asked me if I would reconsider letting her work for OM. I said that it is not I who can decide. I can only let you know how I will feel if you work for him and my feelings haven't changed. Today she told me that she is looking for a different job away from OM.

Please continue to let us know how things are going because your experience is helping us as well.

First of all let me say how sorry I am that you are going through this. I know how you feel. My H had an EA with my "friend". Like you we ran in the same social circle as the OW and her H. What finally ended it was bringing it out in the open. The secrecy alone allows EA's to continue. My advise to you would be to tell your other friends. You will probably find that they have noticed the situation as well.
In my case after the OW found that other people were discussing the EA, she called me to her home to put all the blame on my H. She told me that he had been pursuing her for months and that she always considered herself MY friend. After my H found out that she had betrayed his trust, I saw the fog lift from him (the fog is real). We have been in recovery since then and our marriage is now stronger than ever. Do not kid yourself into believing that you can continue a friendship with the other couple. "No contact" was absolutely necessary to our recovery. It is difficult when you have mutual friends, but my H and I have been surprised with the support we have been given by our friends.
You and your family are in my prayers. Take care of yourself.
Lainie85

Thanks everyone for so much early support and help. It really is nice to know there is so much experience and past knowledge to draw strength from.

I have asked my wife to pull back completely and eliminate any contact with this family and even circle of friends, if we had to and she refuses to do either. As we speak she is at an indoor soccer kick around that we would normally be at together with these same people and the OM will be there as well. I let her know that her actions do not change in regard to him and that it has become far too painful to put myself in that position so I did not go. I took my two youngest kids to the movies instead. She said she wished that I would reconsider but nonetheless bid me goodbye and said she wasn't quitting.

I asked her quietly and politely to allow me to be hurt and give me the time to deal with my grief on a calm level so that I dont re-create my mistakes of the past-yelling, constant questioning, etc. all of which do absolutely no good in "bringing her back". I desperately want the person that I know she could be, and had been, back. I want to regain her confidence so that I can talk about our problems, particularly this betrayal, without any hurtful words or loud yelling. I am so hurt by the months of lies and deception that I find it amazing to wake up next to a person that I hardly ever knew. This is someone I've spent half my life with and I'm only 35!

I never, ever would have imagined that she could or would be the type of person that she has become. She never stood for lies in a relationship. If the subject was ever talked about she steadfastly would always say how she was so against it and now she will casually say that "I guess anyone is capable of an affair".

I need help to make me a better man, husband and father for my sake, my wife's and my families. I thank all you brave people here for giving me courage, however little courage I may have right now. I will be a better person with or without her. I only hope it is with her so that my family will be together.

I am so tired of hurting and crying and feeling so alone all the time, but especially when she's around.

Thanks for listening.

I suggest a three-pronged approach.

OM's wife: Direct her here (though, frankly, the "Basic Concepts", "Q & A" and "Articles" sections are all better than these boards, IMO). Buy two copies of "Surviving an Affair". Read one and give the other to her. Whether or not they are having a physical affair, they ARE having an emotinal affair, so the book is relevant. Print out, read and give to the OM's wife: Emotional Infidelity

OM: Esplain to your friend that your wife's attention to him is distracting her from dealing with your own marriage issues, and you would appreciate it if he would actively discourage her interest. If they are really not having a physical affair, and he is really your friend, this will probably help. If not, it won't, so doing it will also give you an indication of where things are.

You: Start by reading SAA, recommended above. It will help you focus your efforts on the key areas that she is probably missing in your own marriage. Study your W's interaction w/ the OM. What does she get from him that she does not get from you? There may be some things that you feel you cannot give her that he does give her. If you tink about what category of En that thing he is doing for her falls in, you may be able to do something else that falls in the same category that would work just as well for her. If she is really "just friends", then she should theoretically be willing to work to improve your marriage in ways that have nothing to do with her relationship to OM. So, try to spend 15 hours per week together, doing fun things, ALONE. This will have the happy side effect of reducing the time she has to spend w/ OM. Some of the fun things can be specific marriage-building exercises, like taking and discussing the questionaires available on this site. Another great source of marriage exercises is the book "The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work", by Gottman. Several of them are organized to be played like a game. Great stuff. There are also several "date books" on the market that have great suggestions for fun and marriage-enriching dates. The one we have used is "10 Great Dates to Energize Your Marriage", by the Arps. Date your way through one.

Keep in mind that this is not going to be easy, even if they are not having a PA, because, as you have observed, she is just not paying attention right now. Her emotional energy is focused elsewhere. You will get the impression that she is not noticing anything you do. This is a false impression. She may not be letting it affect her, or she may be TRYING not to let it affect her, but she IS noticing. Any FWS on this board will confirm this. Nonetheless, winning her back emotionally will likely take many months, probably over a year.

Lastly, be honest with her, respectfully. You should certainly tell her when things she does upset you, but you must be incredibly careful in how you say things. "I feel ignored, when you ..." is better than "I feel like you are ignoring me when you ...", which is better than "You are ignoring me". Get in touch with your feelings and be open about them to her, but don't expect anything in return. She is not ready for that right now.

One last idea: If you are a controlling type, and she is a pleaser, especially opne that avoids conflict, you may be doing all sorts of things to push her away that you are not even aware of. "The State of Affairs" by Todd Mulliken is worth reading for its insights into the dynamics of such a realationship. If your relationship fit that pattern, it is possible for you to have been having a great marriage, and for her to have been having a lousy one.

What to do? What to do? My wife appears totally depressed and I asked what was up, how was her day? She responded with an always cheerful "peachy" which means the wall is up , and the fight is on. I did not oblige this time with constant questioning, what's wrong,etc.

I merely went about business of our home and looked around for what I could do to help her out since she obviously was having a bad day. I cleaned out two of our kids rooms and picked up and folded clothes, made beds, cleaned up the kids bathroom. She left to the store and when she returned, all I wanted to say to her was that I love her and she barely gave me time for that. In fact, her response was "whatever". I have tears every time I think of the efforts that I am making to change for her and for us and this is what I am left holding???

I think she realized she made a mistake when she came back to me to apologize and I said that I would love her hugs and kisses but only when she is committed to making an honest sincere effort at rebuilding what has been torn away. To this, she just walked away. I guess the truth hurts sometimes, only in this home it hurts all the time.

I am so fed up with this and want to quit and move on with my life but I refuse to do so because of my committment to her and my kids. I ask the Lord for strength so I can continue to be a better man and show her that Love can conquer all. She is deeply troubled right now and I so bad want her to know that I love and care about her. How can I keep finding strength when all you want to do is quit and walk away?

Trying,

You've gotten some great advise and support here. Let me add mine...Consider phone counseling with the Harleys. Steve Harley is who H and I counsel with. He takes a coaching approach with the ultimate goal of H & I being each other's coach.

He is wonderful with WS. He puts them at ease and helps them to understand that although the A was their choice; both marriage partners are responsible for the state of the marriage that allowed the A to exist.

We have learned so much so fast. I know it has saved us from making mistakes. It's not cheap; but we couldn't afford NOT to give our M the very best.

Even if you W isn't open to counseling; SH can talk with you and tell you specifically what to do...and maybe more importantly what NOT to do.

Read on this site about the counseling. Then call and make an appointment. I have never read where anyone has ever regretted doing so. Especially for your children. God Bless the innocent darlings who don't deserve to have their home destroyed. There are 2 families that could be destroyed.

Also invite OM's wife to visit this site for support. Blessings, CSue

TTBBM: This reply is going to sound really harsh, but I don't know any way to soften it. I will say I recognize this only because I have done exactly the same thing. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have tears every time I think of the efforts that I am making to change for her and for us and this is what I am left holding??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be very careful here, you are setting yourself up to abuse her. That statement probably makes no sense to you, because you are obviously doing these good things for her, right? So how could that lead to abuse? According to Willard Harley, MOST abuse stems from one partner giving too much, and expecting something in return that the other partner is not able to give. Then, the giving partner gets upset at the insensitivity/selfishness/whatever of the receiving spouse, and lashes out. Which is what you did, here: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think she realized she made a mistake when she came back to me to apologize and I said that I would love her hugs and kisses but only when she is committed to making an honest sincere effort at rebuilding what has been torn away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is truly a classic example of a Disrespectful Judgement. (see Disrespectful Judgments if you are unfamiliar with the terminology.) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To this, she just walked away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she showed admirable restraint.

You do not seem to understand that it is not all her fault that she is withdrawing from you - you are pushing her away. She came back to you to try to apologize, and you PUNISHED her for doing so, by judging her apology inadequate. How many more times do you think she will do that? I think you owe her an apology, yourself.

Please don't think by this that I am assuming her apology was adequate. I am sure it was a step in the right direction, though, and if you continue to punish whatever steps she takes in the right direction, she will eventually stop taking any.

You cannot realistically expect to undo years of errors in a few days, either. I said months to years in my earlier post. This is based on my own experience and that of others. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I ask the Lord for strength so I can continue to be a better man and show her that Love can conquer all. She is deeply troubled right now and I so bad want her to know that I love and care about her. How can I keep finding strength when all you want to do is quit and walk away? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Lord is a good place to start, but it sounds like you are doing this for you, not Him. I have that problem, too, and even recognizing that, it does not go away over night (at least not for me). I am making progress. Pray for me.

John,

You have no idea how your post has opened my eyes and affected me. I read your repy when I got to work and it brought tears to my eyes. I guess sometimes the truth does that to a person. I am guilty of everything that you said and I followed your link to Disrespectful Treatment and my picture was posted there as well.

I immediately called my wife and apologized and told her I loved her without condition. I guess now it bothers me that it took a post here to hear what she has said to me several times over the years. It's very difficult to see and admit to being an abuser which I was a textbook example of.

Do I impose my thoughts and beliefs upon her? Absolutely. Guilty as charged.

And now I am reaping what I've sowed for years. She is withdrawn exactly as you say despite what I've perceived as being a perfect husband(doting on her and the kids, providing her with "everything" she could want or need or so I thought I "knew" what she wanted or what she needed.) My life was perfect so long as I could continue to dominate and now she has had enough.

John, do you think I can ever make the changes to enable her to fall back in love with me? I know the answer is probably-only time will tell-only she can make that decision.

How could someone as confident and sure of himself be so misguided to the extent that I've been?

Thank you John for your kind words and wisdom and I will keep you posted to our progress over the next few years(gulp) and let you know how we do.

TTBBM: Glad to be useful. Yes, you can change, but it will not be easy. You will slip back from time to time. Get used to apologizing for that, which will help her see you are trying even when you fail. Understand that people have limits, though, and she is near hers. Constant failure and apologies will eventually make the apologies seem like lies. You have to make progress on your behavior. You will not believe how much these changes will improve your relationships with your kids, too.

There are lots of resources that can help you. One is counseling. You are already in counseling, which can be great or less than worthless, depending on the counselor. If it is not helping, try another. You might want to read How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor first, though. There are numerous examples I could cite of people and couples "failing" counseling until they found a "good" one. Another is books. In addition to those already recommended, there is a book that is consistently recommended by "2Long" on these message boards called "Real Love: The Truth About Finding Unconditional Love and Fulfilling Relationships" by Greg Baer. Sounds like it might be good for you. Everything on this site about LoveBusters, or the book "Love Busters: Overcoming The Habits That Destroy Romantic Love" by Harley, and everything on this site about Plan A will also be helpful. I found "If Only He Knew" by Gary Smalley to be helpful as well. Ironically, I think the books "Tough Love", by Dobson, or "Boundaries" might be helpful to you as well. I am not sure (I haven't read them), but if they are about taking ownership of what kind of treatment you will or will not accept from someone, they should help. There is a subtle but important difference between accepting a certain kind of treatment from someone, and trying to control their behavior. I think it is about the difference between trying to control someone's behavior, and trying to control the impact that behavior has on you.

Recognizing the problem is a good first step. The next one is learning about and implementing new ways of behaving. Go to it.

I almost forgot - there is a LoveBusters questionaire available on this site at: Love Busters Questionnaire (LBQ) Doing this exercise with your wife would be a good way to focus your energies on what she thinks are the most important issues. When she is willing, the Emotional Needs questionaire will help you focus your energies on things that will do the most to build back her love for you. As long as she is withdrawn, she will not be open to your efforts to build love, so you have to get rid of the LoveBusters, or she will never come out of withdrawal.

Hi TTBBM,

First things you can do is to relax and realize that patience, love, forgiveness, hard work, and sometimes a real hard look at yourself is what is going to get you through this.

I think that John has given you some great advice. A quick bit on me. I too am 35, my wife had an EA(emotional affair) and then a one night stand(PA, physical affair) with him. It really is tough to go through and you will feel like you will explode at times. We too have kids and have tried to shield them from everything that has gone on. I would recommend the same. My wife withdrew for almost a little over a year and a half before she decided that she wanted to work on things and our marriage. We have been having a pretty good recovery so far.

I remember laying in bed for three days when I found out. I also comforted her when she told me and wiped her tears away. I was very thankful that she was honest with me. I too, could tell that something was very wrong. I started to notice all the same types of "changes" that you have noticed(hindsight you know). What scares me with yours is that she has already had a PA or may be ripe for one. There really is not much you can do. I had to really swallow it down that "I" was the one who had to make the changes first and bring her back into my life and to show her that I truly loved her. You will also need to. Read up on this site. The books that have been suggested I would also read.

Have you suggested to your wife that you should go to counseling? Maybe have her come here to get some advice? I certainly wouldn't push her into any of this though. WS(wayward spouses) have a way of going the other way when pushed. You already say that she puts her walls up. Mine did the same. I did leave bits and pieces throughout the house that seemed to help.

You sound like you are a Christian? Is your wife too? How are your children handling this? I agree with the other folks that she will have to stop seeing the OM(other male) right away. It just has to happen. Unfortunately if she doesn't you may have to have the consequences happen. I wouldn't recommend leaving but she does need to understand that seeing him, talking to him is unappropriate. It needs to stop and now. This is the first key in rebuilding your marriage. She also need to understand that if this is affecting your kids, what she is teaching them when you are and are not around. Not good! It is a very selfish world they live in.

Keep your chin up and keep reading, praying and becoming a better husband. Have faith!

Thank you for your amazing help and calming effects. This board has really been a godsend and I now look forward to reading uplifting experiences instead of just he negative ones.

Let me answer a couple of your questions-yes, I am going through my own counseling for me and my disrespectful judgement issues, in particular how I've been an abuser for years and was completely blind and/or unable to admit and understand what I was really doing. In fact, I was at counseling today and came home exhausted after an emotional draining yet, it continues to cleanse me from my upbringing and all the mistakes that I've made and have repeated many times over. I thought I had released all the negative attributes from the mother and father and have come to see that I've become them and it is threatening to tear my family apart. My actions have abused and pushed my best friend, my wife, far from my arms and I need to reflect and work my tail end off to make me a better person.

I guess you could say I'm a Christian, raised Catholic yet hardly ever go to church and it is something in me that has also been lacking and I have felt that thirst for a long time. I have a strong belief in God and am actively working on restoring that relationship as well.

As of today I've scored two small victories in the past couple of days and each day is a struggle to avoid my past mistakes since I've been hurt. Although I realize now that this vicious cycle that we were in would lead to absolutely nothing good. And believe me when I say that No One would have guessed that we were having problems. I hope these small victories continue to lead to bigger and better ones and I can continue to make myself a better man.

Thanks again everyone for "keeping the faith" and helping me to see myself in an entirely new light. I will pray for myself that I can stay strong and faithful to this endeavor. Thanks.

John,and whoever else is like me and John! In the 32 days since I discovered the A my H was having I have learned a few things. I am NOT responsible for his actions. I can do my part to repair the damage- he turned away from me instead of TO me when things got tough. At first I listened and reacted to his ''laundry list'' of what was wrong with ME- I am an artist and our home is a studio, so I cleaned up- freaked everyone OUT. We have a beautiful home-we just saw it differently from each other-I live/worked in it everyday-he wanted it NEAT. I started going with him wherever/whenever he wanted-he loves to be out and about- I was usually a real homebody. I cook supper every night, which is ok-I am a good cook but meals are so DAILY that I avoided it like the plague-he worked all day and wanted DINNER. Our imtimate life bloomed again and he remembered the passion I have to give. All these things....that I didn't DO- he (H) says made him feel like he didn't matter. My grown sons said WHOA Mom- what is wrong with you- you shouldn't give that dog anything he wants....how insightful of them! I told my H straight out at the beginning-I can easily make these changes-I am a Giver. But he sure wasn't listening to MY laundry list. Hes STARTING now-to hear and see MY side of this mess. The BEST things I have done is to not make his decisions-if he walks out- its all him-I will not ask him to leave. I also will not ask him to stay. After a crisis day, a week ago ((discovered he had a work day OFF and he told me he WAS at work....))I started taking XANAX- who knew that would be SO effective-REALLY changes my mood/reactions-keeps me levelheaded. The MORE I get MYSELF together, ((counseling/drugs/my ART)) the better he reacts-if I am clingy or questioning-at all ''pushy'' he goes the other way. So now as hard as it is-I let him come to me. Getting ME together really has an effect on him-WOW. So the balance is tricky....I am enjoying taking care of him again-and I too benefit in that process- but I go to him with my despair less and less and he seems to recognize my needs/pain easier when it is his idea-I don't understand why my ultra-efforts -doing what he said he wanted......turned him away.....but maybe his ego needs to be the provider and the less desperate I am for his attention-the more he responds to my needs. I dream of him being desperate for ME -LOL any chance that will ever heppen??? Only God knows.........I pray for all of us- constantly. including the OW and her H- who I told about the A---I don't know if they have any chance of fixing their life but now its all OUT and we all have choices to make. Scientia Est Potentia is still my mantra- KNOWLEDGE IS POWER-the difference NOW is that I don't share my knowledge with my H-I use its power to heal myself. good luck- God Bless us all.

Hi All,

I went again to my counselor today and had another good session. I presented her the changes I have been making which have helped me tremendously in all my important relationships right now, with my wife, my children and my spirituality. I know that my wife does her best to not notice how I keep struggling each day to work on myself but she does. In fact, she said to me today that it was so much easier to hate me before.

She also confided in me that she wants to love again and feel that desire for love in her hands and in her heart. I hope one day that will be me in those hands and in her heart again. Until then, I know this is no quick fix and I am committed to this. Love Busters can check themselves at the door. Did I make her do what she did? Absolutely not, but I do understand what place she was in a whole heck of alot more now. I continue to work on me so that I never can go back to that place and I will be better, far better in the long run. Keep the inspirations coming...John, are youout there?

I'm here. Don't know that I have much more to say. I am curious as to what exactly Ruth sees as our similarities. Not that I don't think there are some, just that I am not sure to what in particular she is refering.

A few more thoughts on WD from WH and from Penny Tupy ("Cerri" on the longest thread on this forum). The first is from my description of a call to WH on his wife's radio show: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Harley went through Intimacy, Conflict and W/D, and mentioned that coming out of W/D usually means going to conflict, and the importance of not coming out of W/D into a fight, so the Plan A person has to have a good handle on avoiding LoveBusters.

The other thing he said that was helpful, is that people are usually not TOTALLY in withdrawal, and there are little windows of opportunity where they will allow the other person in. He gave the example that he sees happen all the time: where the Plan A spouse continuously reminds the withdrawn spouse that they understand that they have contributed to the state of their marriage, and are willing to work on it and believe they can solve their problems and want to make their spouse the most important person in their life. The withdrawn spouse may seem to ignore them for days or weeks, but one day will suddenly burst into tears in response. So the Plan A spouse has to be really consistent, because there is no way to predict when those opportunities will occur.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The second is from Penny in response to the quote above, and some issues between the poster refered to as "P" and his wife: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was thinking about needs this morning, and aversion, and defensiveness and a whole lot of things that relate to the things you and John (hereafter known as J) and M have been talking about.

J, this has a lot to do with w/d too. When someone is in w/d, and I think this is more true for women than men but I haven’t tested that theory yet, it’s darn near impossible to pull them out. (J remind me I have some thoughts for your workshop attendants) Once (or if) you do get your partner from w/d to conflict, it is just as difficult to get that person back to the state of intimacy.

Those who have been hurt to the point of going into w/d (and I am convinced that Mrs P was there long before the A) carry that hurt with them for a really long time. So that let’s say they get back to C or I, the owie of w/d is like an old bruise. Tender. Easily hurt again, and just under the top layer of consciousness.

What that means to you, is that she is very likely to slide back to that state with smaller and smaller hurts. So whereas at the beginning of the M it might have taken a couple years of arguing or being neglected to get there the first time, now at 10, 15, or 20 years of being married (or 2!!!) is might take nothing more than a sharp word at the wrong time.

For someone who has bounced in and out of w/d there’s a lot of fear about becoming vulnerable. And that brings me to Mrs. P. I really believe that’s a huge part of what goes on with her. She’s afraid.

So when you come at her with things that you would like, or questions about what she would like, her gut instinct is fear, and then that defensive brushing you off. She’s afraid to be in love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i would like to add that your W's comment that it is a lot harder to hate you now is real progress. Obviously, not where you want to be, but a step in that direction. Keep in mind the progress may be two steps forward, one back. This is not going to be easy. Think in terms of years. Seriously. It MAY go faster. If you are ready for years and it takes months, you have lost nothing. If you are ready for months and it takes years, you will be very frustrated, and may give up. "P" refered to in Penny's quote has been at it for about 3 years, and they are not fully there yet. Pat Williams, an ex-GM of the Chicago Bulls, found it took two years to coax his W out of W/D. I hope your experience is a little quicker, but there are no guarantees. Your W's relationship with the OM will slow things down, but you cannot control that, so you have to realize that fixing your half of the problems may not be enough, so pray for your wife.

Just to warn you: my experience, as well as that of some other posters on this board, and some other Christians I know, is that God's answer to those kinds of prayers is: "There are some things you need to change about yourself. Are you willing to do that?" I do not think that means we should not pray them. I think it means we should.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>