H of 21 years swears he loves me, wants me and not OW. However, since I discovered the A 11 months ago, he has lied repeatedly, promising that all contact has been terminated. I have found out each time that he has not kept his word. On the Emotional Needs Questionaire, we both rated honesty #1! I am finding it really difficult to make an sincere Plan A effort with no confidence that the A finished for good.

I would like some advice on how to deal with the anxiety of not having confidence in his word. I especially would like to know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> what specifically should go into our "plan for recovery."

By way of background, we met in 1975, married in '81, son 18, daughter 15.

We have always and continued to be very respectful, considerate, and affectionate toward one another-very few LBs. Friends consider ours a model marriage.

well, i may not be much help, but i can relate to your situation. my H and I have known eachother 5+ years, but just got M 5/2002...H managed to find OW within 2 months of M, and since d-day has lied to me as well. i made him leave our home on d-day, and since H wasnt at home, he maintained contact w/OW, then i found out he was still calling OW, OW left message on his VM, and most recently (on our belated HM this past weekend) H admitted that he hadnt even told OW that we were going on HM and he was trying to work on things until the weekend before we left. last low blow was H had cell phone bill sent to parents house when i found out he was calling OW all the time. how do you handle it and plan a? i wish i knew. i feel like every time another lie or betrayal is discovered that i am right back at square one, and more unhappy than d-day. i have learned enough to know that it has alot to do with boundaries and how much you are willing to accept - because we both know that lying, especailly by WS is unacceptable, period. Of course, I can give advice, I'm just not very good about taking it! I have told my H that my foot is halfway out the door at this point and every lie and deceit pushes me farther away - but whether he actually thinks that i'll leave him for good who knows - ive let him get away with so many things that i think he believes i'll always be around. so, again, probably not much help, but im there with you! best of luck.

Because knowing and being able to confront the truth is so important to me, I have resorted to some sleuting. For instance, I have signed with cell phone company to access billing and minutes-used via internet. Also, caller id at home with phones that log calls in and list recent calls out under re-dial. Have even priced private investigators and phone tap equipment--expensive! I'm hoping he'll figure he can't get away with it, and "fish-or-cut-bait."

I share your concern that he continues to get the wrong message--that I'll keep taking him back forever. It's been almost a year. How long should I struggle with plan A?

On another note: how do I fill in my personal history profile on this site? Been looking everywhere, and can't find instructions...

Wow. My story is virtually identical to yours, just add 3 years to everything (met in 1972, married in 1978, two sons 21 and 20).

It sure is shocking to discover your "model marriage" is a sham, isn't it? People thought the same about our marriage - still do, actually, since there has been no public declaration of the A. In my case, her affair lasted several years, and I'm not positive it's the only one. Had it not been anonymously revealed, I'm sure I'd still be in the dark.

The continued lies about contact are my biggest issues right now as well. She doesn't know that I'm aware of the phone calls from OM at her office. Honesty/openness was her #1 EN, my #2 (after affection). I wonder what part of honesty does she not understand???

This continuous disrespect is gradually draining my feelings for her. For 30 years, loving her has been as easy as breathing; now it's a struggle to feel much at all. She has seen my shock, my intense pain, my willingness to work hard on restoring our marriage, yet she still keeps her secrets and her friendship with OM. I'm approaching my limit of tolerance - just want to get through the holidays before I deal with it.

I wish I had some great advice for you, but until our spouses own up to their deceit and actually show us that they can be trusted, I'm afraid we either have to just wait it out or eventually deliver some kind of ultimatum. I do know that recovery is impossible until the OM is out of our lives for good. My wife needs to make that happen to show me that she's sincere about us. Until then, we're just treading water.

I really miss the woman I married. I hope I find her again soon...

desperately trying - to update your profile, go into my profile, view/update profile, then scroll to signature and you can type in whatever you want.
i think i read somewhere that plan a is usually for about 6 months...i have been doing terrible for the last 3 months, so i guess that doesnt count for me yet. i find that with the lying especially, my anger and despair just come out of me and i blow up and lb all over the place when i try to plan a - and with my H being an idiot half the time plan a is REALLY hard to do. my opinion would be if you have plan a'd for 11 months and H is still lying to you, maybe an ultimatum is in order...i mean, how much longer are you supposed to endure it? and how can you begin to heal? now, again, i understand that is much easier said than done - if i had a nickel for every ultimatum i SHOULD have voiced and didnt...but i think soemtimes that is the only way the WS "gets it" when they have even just that small inkling in their thick skulls that you mean it this time when you say "no more".

MPLE and Shattered--Thanks so much for responding. It is such a leveler to know I'm not alone--though welcoming anyone to this club is such a tragedy... I keep you both in my thoughts and prayers. I'll keep you up to date on my journey, and hope you'll do the same.

I've been in that situation in the past and am currently experiencing something like it again. The fact is you can't trust them until time bears out the truth. I see it as psychcological warfare perpetrated by the ws. The winner is the person who cares less and indifference is the nuclear warhead. Unfortunatly total indifference is something that's hard to fake and the risk is that you will become immune to the pain and truly indifferent. But it's been my experience that if you're able to convince your spouse that you simply won't continue to subject yourself to the torture and give him complete license to continue the affair with the promise that his actions will be met with your own indifference and withdrawl from the marriage somehow it seems that the allure and magic of the illicit affair is destroyed and it stops immediatly. It's really a disturbing idea that the deception is part of the allure of the affair but it seems that when you remove that it acts like ice water splashed in the face of the ws. A real shock and wake up call that allows the rebuilding and healing to begin before anymore hurt is added.

Hi desperatelytrying. I am sorry you're here.

He keeps lying to you because he's been successful at it and the affair continues.

"swears he loves me, wants me and not OW."

Of course he does! Can you imagine what he tells OW? Swears he loves her, wants her and not you.

Take it to the bank.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by desperatelytrying:
<strong>I am finding it really difficult to make an sincere Plan A effort with no confidence that the A finished for good......I especially would like to know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> what specifically should go into our "plan for recovery."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it IS very difficult, but you have to do it anywway. Be the hero, not the victim.

Please tell us what things you contributed to the poor marital environment pre-affair and what you've done to fix them and how you've demonstrated your fixes.

You are not in recovery, so no need to talk about your plan for it at this point. Instead, tell us about your Plan A.

I apologize if this feels harsh, but I'm sincerely trying to help you get on track. You will not gain confidence in his word until he deserves it, which hasn't happened yet.

Also, please tell us how the affair has seen the light of day, your children's reaction to it, and the status of OW.

Not trying to bust in on your thread, desperatelytrying, but I was wondering since the WS always lies to us, are we supposed to accept the lies or call them on their bluff when in plan a?

Again sorry to bust in!

As for contributing factors to the A, the really big thing that we have put our finger on is that WH's deadbeat brother has lived with us for extended periods since the geginning of our marriage-- a real intimacy killer. He is a very intrusive, presumptuous person. In spite of my very vocal unhappiness about the situation, H couldn't or wouldn't give him the boot, so I took the high road and played saint--big mistake. My part of the blame, I guess, is not standing up for our marriage, and inisting on a healthy environment in which to meet one another's needs. As I said before, we have been mutually affectionate and respectful throughout, but obviously, not close enough. I can accept responsibility for allowing our marriage to be a lesser priority.

WH's brother is out of the picture now and they rarely speak. That situation was triggered by a business deal gone bad.

I guess I claim to have been in Plan A since 1/02, but it's been only about a month since I found MB and started applying the concepts. In response to my total despair, WH has been fairly cooperative. Until I gave him Dr. H's articles, I think he honestly believed he and OW could remain friends, and he was being faithful as long as he didn't sleep with her (as he claims.)

As for the reactions of others, the children do not know. S is off with the Marines, and D knows I am depressed, asks "what's wrong?" a lot, but doesn't know the cause. At WH's request, I have only told his sister, who is supportive, and lends an ear when I am really in need of it. I resent that he gets away with not having to face the reactions of friends and family, but accept that keeping our problem private is the best course for now.

Again, what is the status of OW? Married? Young, old? Children? Have you had contact with her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by desperatelytrying:
<strong>I resent that he gets away with not having to face the reactions of friends and family, but accept that keeping our problem private is the best course for now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps not.

Who gave you this advice?

Sometimes keeping things under wraps does seem to work - recovery with respect to friends and family is easier once the affair ends. But in your case, despite repeated discoveries, something has to change and until this thing sees the bright light of day, maybe nothing will.

I suggest a session with one of the MB counselors to get a professional opinion. Since he didn't end it upon your discovery (over and over), chances are he won't no matter how often you rediscover it. Nobody is making him squirm and you're helping him stay comfortable.

The alternative is NOT necessarily to broadcast it on the evening news, but stopping just short of that is likely the advice you'll get from Steve or Jennifer.

Please consider consulting them. Otherwise, maybe you should advise your son. Marines eschew dishonor.

WAT

WAT-- Thanks. I've read mixed reviews on the "light of day" approach.

OW is former co-worker of WH. Both have been unemployed for the past year, making them very available to one another while I'm working to pay the bills; also making seperate maintenance a serious financial burden if we decide to separate. OW is maybe a few years younger, but not many, and never married. She was raised in traditional Armenian culture, still lives with parents, and tends to be very attentive toward her menfolk as a result of her upbringing.

I, on the other hand, was brought up to be extremely independent, and have a successful career. I have always viewed our relationship as a partnership, and so may have neglected his needs for affection and feeling taken care of.

For years OW was a welcome guest in our home. I have found her a bit too sweet at times, but bit my toungue when I had misgivings obout their friendship--stupid mistake in hindsight. Other humiliations: he took me to New Year's at her family's two years ago: they had our family for Armenian Christmas last year, and she hovered constantly in the hospital when WH had a heart attack 8/02.

When it comes to areas of unmet needs, I should also have mentioned that, at the time the A began, I had been suffering for two years with a chronic inflammatory digestive disease which made sex difficult. It also required steriod medication, which really destroyed my energy levels, and didn't help in the libido department. I have been in remission for three years now, but it's really troubling to think that the stress could make me ill again, and then what?

Back to the concept of exposing the A. I'm thinking if this isn't the time he actually manages to give her up, I move to Plan B and disclosure. Am I being too patient?

Still Trying-- I confront WH with every bit of evidence. There is personal power in facing and dealing with things. I believe it keeps me from becoming a total victim. Also, it keeps you in total honesty, which is my #1 EN.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by desperatelytrying:
<strong>Both have been unemployed for the past year, making them very available to one another while I'm working to pay the bills; also making seperate maintenance a serious financial burden if we decide to separate.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A serious financial burden on whom?

Not you!

You're already carrying the weight. Could be the VERY best thing for you is a separation with him out on his own unemployed - with a girlfriend living with her parents!

Talk about a reality check!!

My strong advice to you is to get a professional opinion pronto. Hopefully a counselor will see it the same way I do - you have to quit helping him. This will go on forever if some external influence isn't applied.

Ideally, you separate then go to Plan B immediately. Plan B isn't available to you without a separation.

WAT

Actually, we have had a good couple of weeks. He promises me every morning to tell me of any contact with OW (she usually phones him.) So, I don't want to take any drastic measure and spoil what might be a good beginning. I'm not fooling myself--I remain very watchful.

To complicate matters, we found out this weekend that my mom is terminal, so we're piling the kids and dog into the car for the 600 mile trip to spend Christmas with the folks. A life-changing decision is more than I can deal with right now.

I agree with your advice that I need some specific advice, and plan to schedule a counseling session.

Can anyone direct me to an example of a no-contact letter? I've searched the site with no success,and want to have the concept ready for discussion with WH. I also ordered Surviving an Affair, but it's not here yet.

WH continues to be thoughtful and affectionate with me, but I have a bad feeling that he's still not being honest. As many times as I've tried to convince myself I'm paranoid, my instincts have been pretty accurate.

I know I need counseling,and plan to pursue that, but I'm having trouble with being in a holding pattern until after the dreaded family Christmas vacation.

If Shattered in SF is still out there, tell me how you're dealing with the patience factor.

I'm trying very hard to put forward a good Plan A, but it feels very unnatural, and I have a very difficult time hiding my unhappiness. That also feels dishonest to me.

I'm rambling. Thoughts out there?

Your story is so familiar. My family also thought we had the perfect marriage. We've been married 20 years and I found out recently about an affair with a co-worker, who is a marriage coulselor. He actually had her counsel relatives of mine while haveing an affair with her. I too have taken to checking cell phone records, pager numbers and email. He says its over but very difficult to beleive after all the lies.
The MB book has been a big help as has this site. I have my H read it and what I have written. Theres something about seeing it in print that it makes it different. He sees what others have been saying, and how they perceive what he has done.
Best wishes and take care of yourself over the holidays. This is a very difficult time, and you need support from friends and family