Hi everyone

I am not usually much of an internet user, and have never posted a message before ... in the last few days, I was scanning the internet for some "help", when I came across MB. I found both the MB site, and everyone's personal advice and support very valuable - so I thought I would ask for any ideas that you may have to help me with my personal problem.

Eighteen months ago (as a newlywed couple) my husband and I lost a baby at 13 weeks gestation. As there was no heartbeat, I had to have surgery to remove the baby/pregnancy - and at the same time, doctor's found a rare cancerous ulcer in the rear of my vaginal wall. I won't go into the long history of the symptoms I had before that day, suffice to say that the doctor's decided at that time to remove quite a large piece of the back wall of my vagina.

They said I would "be better in six weeks".

Now, eighteen months later, after much physical and emotional pain, personal stress, and extensive relationship grief and loss, I am facing the prospect of never being able to have a fully functioning sexual relationship with my husband again. That is, intercourse is just too painful to cope with physically, and this has taken a great toll on our sexual and emotional psyche.

Prior to this surgery, we had a very rewarding and fulfilling sex life - very heartfelt, very connected, and intimate. My husband is 33 and I am 40, and we have been together for(5)five years. I was very confident in my womanhood and my sexuality, and felt that I was so lucky to have such a wonderful partner who was both considerate, and physically and emotionally "there with me". I felt that the one thing we would not lose in our marriage together was our sexual chemistry and positivity.

Well, we have 'lost it' through a terrible series of events and it is tearing us both up.

The problem for me is that while each of us has had this very difficult problem to deal with in our relationship, we just can't seem to deal with it very well together. For example, I have pursued all possibilities for medical/physical repair, checked with many doctors, sought assistance for pain management, undertaken intense physiotherapy, gone to grief counselling and sex therapy, and looked at many forms of self-management and support, etc. etc. I have also tried to support my husband, actively ensuring that I look after his sexual and emotional needs as much as possible throughout.

At the same time though, I am increasingly grief-stricken as I come to terms with what feels like the loss of my womanhood, confidence in myself, and my sexual future - and I now have to deal with the day-to-day pain issues that are associated with this problem. In recent months, I even made the choice to give up work all together in order to have the personal time and energy to deal with the full extent of these debilitating events.

At the same time, my husband seems to not be coping very well at all, and he does very little to talk to anyone about it. He thinks that it is unfair that he is now married to someone that he can't have a "normal" life with. He is often withdrawn, angry, resentful, and unsupportive. He rarely wants to discuss any of the details of the physical aspects of the problem, 'acts as if' he doesn't understand what is actually going on, or why it hurts so much (even though I have been very clear in explaining things), and his eyes often glaze over, or he leaves the room if I want to talk about what the doctor said today, or how I might be feeling.

Don't get me wrong, I have not bamboozled him with lots of my own hurt or the everyday grind of the pain, etc - in fact, I have coped with a lot of it on my own. But sometimes, I can't cope with it on my own, and I feel that I am not "being real" if I can't share my grief, pain and heartfelt emotions with him.

While I have actively been trying to keep our intimacy and physical closeness alive, I feel that my husband's choices, reactions and behaviours are making it even more difficult for me to deal with things at all. For example, he most often shares with me from an Absolute Honesty perspective (sorry, I can't remember what MB's exact phrase is for being totally honest??), things like "he just doesn't feel the same about me anymore", and the "sexual desire/excitement is just not there". He is not able to see past the intercourse loss to look at other options, and so often completely withdraws. Over time, the constant battle to understand my husband and support him while working hard to retain our closeness and intimacy has been very draining for me.

While this type of withdrawal has been bad enough, the last three to six months just seems to be getting worse and worse.

For example, my husband - who previously wouldn't even use the word 'sex' because he found it disrespectful (ie. he prefers it if we say "making love", etc) has now been accessing internet pornography and then lying to me about it, getting really angry with me because I am "sick" (his usual method of getting angry is not talking to me for days), finding the littlest, most trivial things to argue about, blaming, fault-finding, and generally running-me-down to the point where I almost can't cope anymore.

It even got to the point where I went away for three days to try and rebuild my emotional strength, and when I came back he said that "he realised that he had not been supporting me since our marriage, and that he was making things even more difficult by being mean and nasty, etc". He also said that "he didn't want our marriage to break-up, without him doing anything about it", and that he would go to counselling, etc.

He did go to counselling once, and he told the counsellor that "he didn't realise how bad things were for me". The counsellor suggested that "I haven't made it clear enough what is going on for me, and that I need to be more specific". So, I was encouraged to include him more in what happens at the doctors, or what I am feeling etc. His interest lasted for a total of two discussions - and then he went back to pretending he didn't hear, leaving the room, or telling me how tired he was whenever I tried to discuss anything.

Added to this, he is very openly critical of me being sick. He thinks that it is OK for him to be angry with me because I am ruining his day, his life, or our holiday, etc. For example, over Christmas, I had a pain in my hip that made it difficult for me to walk for a few days, so my husband was very angry and hardly spoke to me. When we did finally talk, he genuinely thinks that his anger is completely justified and rational - and he doesn't feel he is sorry that we have just had a miserable two days, for nothing!

On New Year's Eve he got so angry with me that he was critical in front of other people, and then laughed at my hurt feelings, etc. When I had the courage to say to him that he better stop laughing at me, he attacked me for being "nasty to him!". Later, he didn't even say Happy New Year, or Goodnight, or anything ... (no kisses even for the first time since we have known each other) ... and then he didn't speak to me for the next two (2) days. When I tried to get him to talk to me, he said he couldn't think of anything to say.

If I try to say something to him about how I feel, or if I ask about what the problem is, we often end up having some completely non-sensical discussion, where I don't "actually get" what he is talking about, or where I feel he turns the story into a version of events which is not even close to my recollection of what happened at all. He says things like "well I got really upset when you said blah", and then when I seem surprised and say something like "but I didn't say blah", he then agrees that I didn't say it ... but he still stays really angry anyway?

As a side issue, the doctors suggested that one of the best ways to restretch and heal my vaginal canal was to "get pregnant again" - so I am currently five (5) months pregnant. And, despite this, I am still being treated this way ...

I have asked my husband if he will go back to counselling, but he feels he doesn't need to.

I know this seems like a long rambling note about a problem which appears a little hard to define now that I've actually tried to write it down. I guess what I am saying is that we are basically dealing with a really difficult underlying problem which is now becoming an everyday problem of anger, blame, and withdrawal - with lots of Love Busters! I am feeling really emotionally low - and am finding it almost too difficult to prop my husband up as well as myself. I am also feeling a great loss of my own sexuality, womanhood, and confidence. I am saddened and disrespected by the internet porn issue, and further depleted by the ongoing anger and silence routine. I don't seem to have the personal strength to keep on trying.

My husband's current answer for everything is to keep saying that he loves me - although I am not currently reciprocating this sentiment. I find myself hearing him say this in the midst of everything else, and my inner responses go something like "Sure you do!", "Yeah, you have a really strange way of showing it", "This isn't love", etc. etc.

I am now feeling for the third time in six months that I would be handling all this a lot better if I was dealing with it on my own - and I am seriously thinking about leaving. I am confused about what else I can do in circumstances where I don't have the physical or emotional energy to keep looking after someone else as well myself.

Although I understand how difficult this is for my husband to cope with as well, there must come a time when it is most reasonable to say "enough is enough".

What do you guys think? Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
Linda-Ann

Linda-ann,

I am a male so forgive me if I say something that hurts you with regard to your situation. First, I wonder why you feel you have lost your womanhood, and sexuality, when you are in fact pregnant. It seems to me you are indeed a woman in every respect, including sexually.

Second, I realize that all of this is getting to you, I mean who won't be worked over by the events that you have described. You say you want your H to treat you well, love you, and be a better husband, BUT you then don't reward him (with at least an acknowledgement) when he does tell you he loves you. This sort of inconsistent response (inconsistent within your thinking and probably inconsistent within his view of things) is going to push him away.

I think you need to stop and get to bedrock here. Do you love him? If so tell him so and treat him as you if you do love him. Now, as a male I will tell you I tire very easily from hearing the same and the many details my W delights in regaling me with. This is true of meetings, parties, whatever. I am not wired to enjoy wrapping myself in the details of this stuff, she is. So perhaps you are going about keeping him informed about things in the wrong way.

Fewer details, more global picture. "Went to the Doc today. He/she says things are slowly getting better. Or He/she says the reason I am feeling pain is it is not getting better."

End of report. Do you see what I mean.

You have asked and touched on some very deep issues with regard to sexuality and the needs for having sex. I am sure you and your H have discussed and probably tried alternatives to vaginal sex. But, Linda-Ann the one thing that turns on a man more than anything is an "enthusiastic" partner. Not a deperate one, one a sacrificial one, but one that "enjoys" the giving and the taking.

You might want to evaluate how your H perceives you in regard to this issue.

Finally, your H may be mourning more than just the loss of sexuality. He may be mourning the lose of you. You have changed (Duh!) and you may not realize and nor may he what he is missing. One, last thought, I have known more than a few people who have passed away, and sometimes the response of the survivers is ANGER. It is really pain manifesting itself as anger. I suspect your H may be in this situation. He is feeling sorry for himself, knows he shouldn't be (you are the one that needs help) and this frustrates him. Frustration with something that he cannot fix will lead to anger.

Perhaps you need to ask him if all of this is frustrating him. Talk to him in terms of what he is feeling and not about his anger. It is a secondary emotion, driven by something else. For example you anger at him is clear, but what is really driving it? My guess it is your frustration at your situation.

I do hope others post. I also hope that something I have said will help you.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am also feeling a great loss of my own sexuality, womanhood, and confidence.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who wouldn't feel that way if they were in your shoes and had gone thru such an ordeal, but I'd like to remind you that our womanhood/manhood ultimately resides between our ears and not between our legs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am now feeling for the third time in six months that I would be handling all this a lot better if I was dealing with it on my own - and I am seriously thinking about leaving. I am confused about what else I can do in circumstances where I don't have the physical or emotional energy to keep looking after someone else as well myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would suggest that you sit down and calmly tell this to your H. Who knows but you two may come up with a better answer than you leaving to be by yourself.

Peace be with you.

Dear JL and TooMuchCoffeeMan

Thank you both for taking the time to respond to me. I am very appreciative, and just wanted to give you an update.

To JL:

My first reaction to your reply was to cry a lot. I found myself wanting to say things like ...

"No! I have been rewarding him and loving him throughout this whole thing, and it has only been the last two days that I have not been responding to him, or acknowledging and reciprocating when he says he loves me! It is not me - it is him - who starts all this no speaking thing, you know".

and "I am only trying to tell him all the details now because he and the counsellor think that it's my problem that I have not been communicating to him exactly what is going on".

and "It is him - not me - who is not being an 'enthusiastic' partner, making the whole sexual thing even more difficult to negotiate".

Pathetic isn't it, JL!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> My first response was to stay stuck where I was - justifying my position, angry at him for making things worse, and blaming him for not being kinder, and treating me better, etc. Why couldn't I see that this whole approach was totally pointless? (I used to be much better at seeing this sort of stuff for myself!)

In fact, it is always the case that:

"When you meet anyone,it is a holy encounter,
As you see him you will see yourself,
As you treat him you will treat yourself.
As you think of him you will think of yourself.
Never forget this,
for in him you will find yourself, or lose yourself".
(Gifts from A Course in Miracles)

Two things that you said really helped me to remember this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say you want your H to treat you well, love you, and be a better husband, BUT you then don't reward him ... when he does tell you he loves you. This sort of inconsistent response (inconsistent within your thinking and probably inconsistent within his view of things)is going to push him away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you need to stop and get to bedrock here. Do you love him? If so tell him so and treat him as if you do love him </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, yes, I do love him (thank you for reminding me) - which meant:[*] I needed to find a way to tell him [*] I needed to be able to do that without criticism, judgement or blame [*] I needed to feel OK about being real and vulnerable, and crying a lot when I spoke to him (instead of "staying angry" and not speaking to him so I didn't cry) [*] I needed to let go of trying to get him to be better, or to be sorry, or to be loving to me 'first'.

... and to TooMuchCoffeeMan:

Thank you very much as well. I also needed to be reminded that my brain was severely losing out here. I was so focussed on the bits "I have lost", that I was forgetting to use the bits that "I still have". You know, nobody can see that a piece of my vagina is missing - if I don't tell them, they just don't know - but they can see if I am not using my brain or my heart very well. I think that some of the femininity, rationality, and kindness I once gave so easily to my H may have been part of the 'womanhood' I felt I was missing here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> What do you think?

Discussion update:

So, I have now had a very involved discussion with my H - from an SF, EN, G&T perspective rather than a DV-Day one. I won't go into all the details of the conversation but, after some time, my H cried as he shared with me how he had felt over the last week. He was so sad that he felt he may not be able to go on, and even had thoughts of suicide because he thought that we didn't love each other anymore. I was very sad and shocked to hear this.

I had been so busy thinking about how hurt I was, and how badly he was handling everything, and how he should be able to deal with this problem without being angry all the time, and how he should be able to work out what is going on behind his anger without waiting on me to do it for him - and how he should get better at dealing with things in general, and how he should not be mean to his wife, and how he shouldn't lie about stuff or be disrespectful (like saying that he loves me "just to make me talk to him when IMO he clearly wasn't loving me at all"), and how he really wasn't doing a very good job at being supportive in a time of crisis, and blah, blah, blah ... disrespectful judgement, and more disrespectful judgements, etc. etc.

How could I have let things get so far? How could he have felt so sad without me knowing it? How could I have fallen into the trap of playing the same anger game that he was? How could I have forgotten how much I love him? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

So, through this discussion, I told him how much I really really loved him, and that I was so sorry I had stopped being loving to him. He was very thankful. He told me he doesn't know why he keeps getting angry, but he wants to stop. I asked him if he really wanted to stop,and he said he did. He told me he wanted to make things better, and even though he has said this before, he really means it this time. I told him I know that he does - no anger, no apologies, no cynicism, no disrespectful judgements.

I know that I would prefer it if things were just better or easier to deal with. I would prefer it if he was kinder to me, and didn't "tire easily from hearing the same and many details" (ref. JL), and didn't feel sorry for himself, or frustrated in ways that reflected his anger at me. I would prefer it if he was more supportive. Actually, I would prefer it if we didn't really have to deal with this problem at all.

But this is not reality is it?

This problem just seems to have been so hard, and there really is no easy way to go 'thru such an ordeal' (ref. TooMuchCoffeeMan). But I have come to realise that it is not so much about what the problem actually is, as it is about how we deal with it. It is just so much easier to begin to face things from the perspective that:

- we both really love each other
- we want to stay together
- we are willing to do whatever it takes to work through it

Suddenly, we feel much better. "Uhhm, what was the actual problem again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ?!" (LOL)

And, so this is where we are at! Thank you both for talking with me, and helping me to see things a little differently. And JL, thank you also for reminding me of the male perspective. I am happy to go back to the fewer details, more global picture scenario. I think this is a much better option than 'feeling bad because he doesn't want to listen to me' . He did say to me once (a long time ago) - "You know, I am not a woman". I do seem to forget that, sometimes. Yikes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Maybe it's time now to start talking about some specific MB principles, like Dr Harley's Basic Concepts, and other stuff?

With kindness and gratitude
Linda-Ann

Linda-Ann,

This post just warms my heart. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It is so easy in life to get caught up in the details, the preceptions, and we often fail to get to bedrock. I think if you could convince your H of anything it is to go to the bedrock everytime he feels anger, confusion, or just hurt. Then tell him to come to you. An interesting thing is that while he cannot fix what is frustrating him (your health), you can help him, but talking to him.

When should that happen? When YOU feel the most down. Doesn't seem to make much sense does it? But, you to do reflect one another to each other.

If you read about Harley's principles the concept of Plan A in the face of an affair, really seems to go against the grain. I mean the one hurt the most is the one that is expected to suck it up and make it work. But, it isn't crazy. It works many times because what the person having the A really wanted was the attention and while nothing excuses the A, the issue isn't the excuses. It is the result.

I think both you and your H need to continue to address this. It is often harder for a loved one to watch someone they love hurt, than it is to be the one hurt.

There was something else I wanted to say, but the phone conversation that I just had caused me to forget it. I would strongly recommend that you and your H do more reading here. You two do seem to have a very good handle on things.

Plus, remember he is only human and he has his weaknesses as well. And yes it is much easier to give advice, and see the "big picture" when you are not in the middle of it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You two sound like you will do very well.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you, JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Linda-Ann

A heartwarming post indeed. It's soooo easy to get caught up in the frenzy of the blame game, that we forget the further damage we are doing to each other and the marriage because of it. Good job Linda Ann for resisting to play it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that some of the femininity, rationality, and kindness I once gave so easily to my H may have been part of the 'womanhood' I felt I was missing here! What do you think?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you're right but even if you had not lost that part of your body, the daily stresses and the occasional marital crisis could have had the same effect on your marriage in the long run. That's why it's so important to have a positive mental attitude that will not only help us weather the highs and lows in life but will give us a good perspective and appreciation of our lives. Appreciating the blessings that we had after we lose them is a terrible tragedy not only for ourselves but for our loved ones as well.

Thanks, TooMuchCoffeeMan ... and thank you for sharing your story as well.

Kind regards
Linda-Ann