Not wanting to hijack another thread, I stole this from another post because it pretains to me also. You asked some very insightful questions.

What does she say? I'm not going anywhere.
Does she want to recommit? I'm not going anywhere.
Does she know how very much she's hurt you? What about my feelings? (I have confessed, shown remorse, grief, and asked forgivness for my faults and errors in the past.)
Has she asked for your forgiveness? No.
Where is she now in all of this? Her actions indicate that she is willing to try to reconcile, as long as I pose no questions about OM. D-day for EA was 10/07/2002. Her words on 10/25/2002 were "I was depending on him for conversation, laughter and companionship"

By nature my wife is a conflict avoider. I get the impression that she wants to reconcile but at the same time, push this and even my past failures under the carpet and pretend they never happened.

I guess my question would be, Is my wife far enough out of withdrawal to really realize what she was doing or to actually feel remorse or grief for her actions. I keep reading that this must come before recovery can really take place. Is this true? A loaded question, I know.

Trusting Her --

Problems ignored are problems returning.

Conflict Avoiders (my W is one also) "must" push the issues to a back burner and pretend they never happened. That's their primary survival instinct. Identifying and addressing the issues is all too often a guessing game. But you see what trouble that leads to.

You can't be a mind-reader; you can't know what she's thinking. You however can be aware of potential trouble spots in a relationship and work to avoid those areas. The EN Questionaires on this website are wonderful. You can download them, complete them, and get so much insight it'll make your head spin.

Better yet, ask your W to complete them also and then compare notes = instant revelation. Rather than worrying about all the stuff that CAN go wrong in an R, these questionaires will allow you to focus-in on the areas that ARE issues in your particular R. Then you can set about making things right and comfortable for both of you. How can you fix what you don't know is broken? This is called Preventive Maintenance, even after the fact.

How do you feel about "pretending they never happened?" -- doesn't seem like the smart way to go, does it? Well, it's not! Ever!

How do you feel about "posing no questions about the OM" and, I would imagine, about the A in general? -- How much information do you need to help you heal? Some need a lot with precisely detailed facts; other need only some basic outlines. It's an individual matter for each BS. The important BS though is you. She needs to be willing to provide whatever information and answers and discussion you need, no matter how uncomfortable or painful it is for her. That's the price of her poor choice.

The answers you've given from your W in response to those questions tell me she's still in The Fog. You can't operate on "impressions" about your reconciliation; you have to know where she stands. Does she want your marriage to continue? "I'm not going anywhere" on the surface seems to indicate yes, but it begs the question. You need to hear a commitment, not some obtuse and vague generality. Ask her again.

It is absolutely true that remorse and contrition "must come before recovery can really take place." Until she's there, you're going to continue on this very shaky and unsteady path. You asked, "Is my wife far enough out of withdrawal to really realize what she was doing or to actually feel remorse or grief for her actions." Doesn't sound like it, but I don't know your wife. My vote at this point is no, she's not. But she may be emerging, and at this point that may be all you can expect. A gradual emergence is to be preferred to continued submergence.

BTW, isn't it astounding how much we learn from reading the posts of others on this board? It's like a lifetime pass to the library. Thanks for "asking" for me -- I'm honored! I do wish you well in this quest. It's worth doing, but you already knew that. Post again and let's keep in touch.

Ammon

<small>[ January 06, 2003, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Ammon ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Better yet, ask your W to complete them </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did, she refused. Well not actually refused, I gave them to her asking that she read them and fill them out. I breifly explained the concept behind them. Thye are still sitting on the shelf where she placed them. Her IC did give her a book called "Before a Bad Good-Bye" that she began reading back in November but she has not finished it yet. She did say that it gave her some insight on how she felt and how we got to this point but, she still has half of the book left to read.

The really bad part was yesterday. The friendship with the OM originated from a quartet that she plays for. They started their practice sessions again last night. I very polietly explained my fears to my W what I thought continued contact would do to our marriage and us trying to resolve our problems. She let out a loud sigh and stated that she thought all of this was behind us now. "Well, to an extent they are" I replied, I was just expressing my fears in a non confrontantional way, or so I thought. I explained that effective communication between spouses allows one to express their fears without fear of being scoffed at, rejected, laughed at, or made to feel that their fear is not valid. That of course elicited another SIGH from her.

She firmly stated that the OM was only a friend. OK, he's just a friend, let me ask you this then?

In your opinion it is perfectly acceptable for a spouse to develope and maintain an opposite sex friendship outside of the marriage. In this friendship, intimate details of the marriage and feelings for the spouse are shared, details that have never been shared with the spouse. That it is OK to use resources and engery that should be directed to the marriage on this friendship, ie., lunch dates, dinner dates, numerous phone calls, voice mails to each other, without the knowledge of the other spouse.

Her reply, " I guess so, I did it. "

To make sure I understood I asked again. "So what you are saying is that it is OK for me to develope and maintain a friendship with a female. I am free to share with this woman my likes and dislikes about you and our marriage to her. I can use money that should be used for you and our children to take this woman out to lunch, dinner, and buy her gifts. I can call her anytime I want, even when I have the kids with me and we are out of town on a family outing. All of this is done without telling you about her.

Her response: " Yes. "

THIS IS NOT the lady I married.

But the good in this is that she went to practice and was home at a resonable time. She did kiss me goodbye when she left for pratctice.

OK so I am on a roll with the LB's I guess, after almost 5 months I guess I am entitled to a screwup every once in a while.

I asked her again that night a simple question.

Concerning the conversation we had this afternoon, are you sure that those are the values you want to instill in our children. You know that your parents would not agree with that statement, nor any of your sisters. For that matter, as screwed up as my parents are they would even disagree with that statement. I just ask that you think about it and see if you really believe it.

This morning she complained about not being able to go to sleep. Said that it was 2:30 a.m. before she finally did go to sleep. This from a lady who can close her eyes and be in a deep sleep in a matter of minutes. I sure hope there was something on her mind.

Trusting Her --

In your first post to me, you asked, "Is my wife far enough out of withdrawal to really realize what she was doing or to actually feel remorse or grief for her actions." You are learning the answers every day by observing the process. The Fog still controls her; it obscures and prevents focus on and concern for your relationship. Until it lifts, expect more obfuscation and avoidance and pain.

"She let out a loud sigh and stated that she thought all of this was behind us now" = typical Fog response and doubly so for a Conflict-Avoider. She doesn't want to discuss the A or OM because such talk makes her immensely uncomfortable. Why? -- she knows very well that she's chosen the wrong route. It's called conscience. We hope that her innate sense of right and wrong eventually will win out here, but unfortunately no guarantees. Just know that as long as The Fog and the OM are in the picture, the two of you simply will not be able to work on marital recovery.

But that doesn't mean you can't work on yourself. Sounds to me like you've got a very clear grasp of what's going on and that you're making a great try at avoiding LB's. Remember that you're human and that mistakes and digressions are part of this. You can't always be perfect but you can try.

The entire second half of your latest post confirms the simple fact that she's not "there" for you and your marriage for now. She's somewhere else. You're right: this is NOT the lady you married. She's been "abducted by aliens" and turned into someone else. BTW, after five months of pain and puzzlement, you are more than entitled to an occasional LB.

Can I get some more information? How long have you been married? What are your ages? Are there children? Does your W know how serious and detrimental her contact with OM is to you and to the future of your lives together? Does she care? These last two Q's are rhetorical as they address issues that she's had a chance all along to consider...and hasn't. But I include them because as part of your boundaries, you need to make absolutely certain that you communicate these areas to her and that you are equally certain that she understands what you're saying. Unacceptable actions and behaviors must have consequences. She needs to know that continuing them will harm your marriage, perhaps fatally.

Read about Plan A here on this site. It is worth thinking about in your situation. It provides the boundaries and direction and structure to assist you in your search for equilibrium and recovery.

Thanks for getting back to me. It's good that she's having trouble sleeping; all part of the high price being paid for her weak choices. Post again soon and keep me in the loop. Maybe we can generate some opinions and perspectives from other members...

Ammon

Married 16 years, 11/01/2001.
Me, 41, her 40 (maybe a MLC?)
3 Children - Girl, Boy, Girl

Does your W know how serious and detrimental her contact with OM is to you and to the future of your lives together? Apparently not, she just keeps telling me that I am trying to make something out of nothing.

Does she care? Deep down I think she does. This is only based on my knowledge of her and her upbringing. Does she see that she cares? I think not. Right now she appears to be in a very selfish mood.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Plan A = Agape Love

My response to her on July 29 was that I would learn to love her unconditionally, expecting absoutely nothing in return. That I would be there as the physical and spritual husband and father that I should be. That I realized that I could only change me. Of course this was before I learned of the OM. The 2 Senior pastors and my IC both warned me of this possibility. I laughed at them and said "No Way, not her!" And I even believed this for several weeks. The awaking for me was my neighbor. He called me over one night and said "I really do not know how to tell you this but it has been on my mind for quite some time. Please do not get upset, just hear me out. Your wife has distanced herself from her children. She hardly ever takes them anywhere anymore. As soon as you come home she is leaving to go somewhere. I cannot help but wonder if she is having an affair. I say this because she is acting just like my first wife when she had an affair." I assured that my wife would never do anything like that but it caused me to begin snooping. Ouch! That is an emotional ride I never want to take again.

I have just finished reading "Torn Asunder" and "Boundaries in Marriage" which both provided some great insight. As time progresses I would set some boundaries for myself as to what I will and will not tolerate. I only hope that an awaking will come to her soon.

Oh! I did ask about the commitment to our marriage recovery again.

Honey, I'm not going anywhere could mean a lot of things. It could mean that you're not going because your scared to. It could mean that you have no where else to go. It could mean that you're just not quite sure what you want to do.

I guess it's better than I'm leaving

I don't think Ammon would mind a jump in from me, and I usually do not thread jack....but I was wondering, and I usually do not recommend books when I do not know all of the situation, but I have a suggestion here.... Maybe it can give insight especially about the conflict avoiding issue but based on some other theories, you can get this at your local library I am sure, but here is the book:

Escape From Intimacy
Anne Wilson Schaef

It is a good read when faced with dealing with affairs, but more so about the possible other underlying issues that can emerge. I do not know if will help, but I also have another book that I do enjoy suggesting:

The Stranger In Your Bed
Dr.Rosalie Reichman

Again, I'm sure you can get it at the library. I just thought it might shed light on sometimes what conflict avoider's real issues are about is "thinking they want true intimacy" but doing the adverse "subconsciou thinking" to prevent it.

Carry on you 2.....I'm am done "jacking" the thread.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Jack away........just when I think I am better at handeling the stress of the situation something else comes along and knocks me back down. Therefore I am open to any and all suggestions.

The 2 books I mentioned are only 2 of many I have read since early August. I will soon have to build some additional shelves in my office as I am running out of room quick. I will check out those 2 you mentioned as I need all the help I can get here.

Just wanted to say that I understand completely what you are going through, as I am
experiencing some of the same situations. You seem to be a little more lenient with your spouse than I was. I made it very clear that if there was any hope for a reconcilation there could be no contact with the OM, which I believe(hope) has not happened. If you truly believe you can heal your relationship while the OM continues contact with you wife you are a stronger person than I am. Ask yourself is she giving you what you need to believe that she wants things to work? It has helped me to make sure I stay true myself and don't be afraid to say what is on your mind about how you feel regardless of the reaction it may bring. I would rather be talking endlessly than sitting in silence wondering what is going through my wife's mind. Keep talking even though it may be painful. Good Luck

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You seem to be a little more lenient with your spouse than I was.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been accused of having a huge heart. I guess in this case it may be a bad thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I made it very clear that if there was any hope for a reconcilation there could be no contact with the OM</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess that somewhere between my huge heart and my logical brian I keep wanting to believe her when she says that he was only a friend. Or.....show some sense of remorse and repentenance in her actions. Somewhere down the road I guess I'll have to bite the bullet, one way or the other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you truly believe you can heal your relationship while the OM continues contact with you wife you are a stronger person than I am.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I know that recovery can occur in the presence of the OM, I know it complicates things. But part of me wanting to believe and trust my wife in that it was only a friendship and the other part, the logical part, refusing to deny the underlying evidence prevents me from accepting either. Therefore I feel that I am in limbo at times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ask yourself is she giving you what you need to believe that she wants things to work?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No! She is not. A point blank question of do you want this marriage to work is never answered. I lost my wedding ring several years back and we never replaced it. I asked her about replacing it last November, possibly as an anniversary gift, and I did not get it. I mentioned it again in December as a Christmas present and I did not get one. I asked her again last night if she would go with me to help select one and she stated that we should wait to see the outcome. The outcome of what? I told her that this payday I would go on my own and select one and wear it to my dying day. I wonder if that would be classified as a LB.

I guess my real problem is that I totally trusted my wife. Because of this I keep trying to apply logic to this whole situation, but......the more I read the more I understand that there is no logic to this. I will never be able to piece it together in my mind without additional information from my wife and she is adament in that it was only a close friendship. Prehaps I am the one in a negative thought pattern looking for evidence to prove this and finding some here and there.

What evidence might that be:

Prior to D-day my wife took baths most every evening, and a shower in the morning. This pattern stopped the day the OM entered the hospital. In hind site and obtaining her cell phone detail those days with baths conincided with phone calls to and from them.

A sudden intrest in her appearence. She went from a size 10 to a size 4 from March to July. Along with credit cards for several local department stores, a huge change in wardrobe, and the purchase of a cell phone.

A post I read the other day really set me back. My wife has never been one to chew gum or mints. In March of this year they suddenly appeared in the car. Funny thing is, she has not bought any since October 7.

A tid-bit more. My wife is very self-conscious about me seeing her without clothing on now. I asked her about that and she said that she has been self-conscious about that for a long time. That could be true but I was always reminding her that she really needed to get dressed before coming out of the bedroom. My reasoning was for our young son, I thought it best for him not to see half naked women running around the house as I knew what effect that had on me when I was young. I had 5 sisters who did that. This was a pet-peeve of mine. This behaviour from her never stopped until early June of last year.

Geez, the last time I saw her undressed was November 16, when her IC said to have sex with me to see if it would help. Prior to that was early June and not again since then.

Nights that she supposedly went to the park to walk she would come home and actually hang her clothes up vs the hamper. Geez, it's 98 degrees outside, if you actually went walking there should be sweat. Call detail later showed that every night she went to walk in the park for a change of scenery, there was also a call to the OM's cell phone.

Prior to October 27, she could not look me in the eye during a conversation. After a confession from her that she was depending on him for conversation, laughter, and companionship she can now look at me and talk. *Looks back at what he just wrote and wonders why he is even giving his W the benefit of doubt, Duh!)(I asked about this recently, she replied that it is now conscious effort on her part to maintain eye-contact)

The night that our son asked her not once, but twice to please come and sit down with us and read our Bible story. Her first response was I'll just stand here and listen. Her second response was to walk out of the room. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> A mom refusing a request from her own child to read a Bible story. I asked her about it later and her statement was "I really do not remember that conversation" It was asked of her again later and the response was " I'd rather not talk about it", again three or four weeks later and her response was "I see that time as your time with the children and I do not want to impose".

Cell Phone Detail! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Ouch!

Detail went back to early July. She dropped off the kids at 10:00 am to attend a church camp where I was working. 10:05 she callled him.

Number of calls between them. Typically 3 or 4 day. All to and from cell phone to cell phone with some to his place of business. The ones that raise the most concern.

She is in Florida with best friend and children. She calls him.

She is in motel with best friend and he calls her. It was best friends B'day and this was supposed to be a celebration. It's just ironic that most calls to him from him were always followed up to a call to her best friend.

She gets off work on Wednesday's at 6:30. She is free until 8:00 PM. For 10 weeks there is a call from him between 6:30 and 6:45. Not a long call, just one or two minutes. Almost like, I'm here, where are you or I'm on my way.

But I guess the real killer was a conversation I overheard between her and her best friend. It went something like this.

I really did not know what to expect when he showed up Sunday, you know he went to that prayer retreat Saturday. Well, I looked at him when he got there and he sort of rolled his eyes and I asked him how it went. Well, I learned I was living in sin. Well, I am sure that you and every other man in that room probably is too. He then told me that he really loved me and that he hoped he was not going to be a hinderance to mine and Trusting's marriage reconcillation. I told him no, that it was over, but that what you and I have is good.

So I guess the question is, do I have reasons to believe that my wife was at least emotionally involved with this person?

Oh, I forgot to mention that when she finally went to her first IC session she called the OM and talked for 20 minutes. the same for the 2nd and 3rd sessions. The day I confronted her and him. They talked for 48 minutes, I had to call her to give her the status of our son and she was very upset, crying, sobbing, emotionally she appeared to be over the edge. I later dicsovered that she had just finsihed talking to the OM before I called. What was this 48 minute call for?

How does she feel about her parents or the OM's wife knowing about the calls. They do not need anything else on their plate

Prehaps others that are a slight bit more stable emotionally can shed some light on this.

<small>[ January 28, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: trusting her ]</small>

I commend you on your loyalty and dedication. It is obvious you will do whatever it takes to make this work and are trying to do so, but your confidence can't make up for her doubt. It is a two way street. My difference was that my wife admitted the affair, whether I have the complete truth about it, I don't know. I'll pass on a suggestion that was given to me that I am consideing. A polygraph test. Just a thought, you would have to make the decision if you think it would be a viable alternative to help with your peace of mind.

Trusting Her --

All of the signs and evidence you list about your wife's behaviors are classic, text-book indicators of a rampant A. We've seen them all too often on this board; many of us have seen them in our own lives.

You ask, "...do I have reasons to believe that my wife was at least emotionally involved with this person?" As plain as the nose on your face! I'm very sorry to confirm that your research is thorough, complete, and incontrovertible.

"While I know that recovery can occur in the presence of the OM, I know it complicates things." Here I have to disagree: There is NO WAY that recovery can occur in the presence of the OM. Not only does it complicate things, it makes recovery impossible. You're fooling yourself if you think that sort of half-baked "recovery" will hold up. Sounds good to your W (she gets you and him both) but that plan is building your beach house on the sand out at water's edge at low tide. OM must be out of the picture = bottom line.

Part of your reason for being here on this board, part of its value to you, is that while each of us is going through our own personal sagas and pain, we can look at what you're describing much more objectively than you are able to do. You're too close to it; you live it every day. We, on the other hand, can stand back a few paces and evaluate this from a more-or-less detached perspective.

We all can empathize with your thinking and certainly with your anguish. We can say "right on" to a poster who says they want to "believe and trust my wife in that it was only a friendship." We all would much rather be "there" than in any other place. But--and it's a big but--the "logical part, refusing to deny the underlying evidence" is what we can see quite clearly, free of your emotional baggage. If it walks like a duck...

You say, "I am in limbo at times" but I don't believe nearly so much so or as often as you think. You're constantly adding two and two together on your own and coming up with a very nasty-looking four. We can talk to you until we're blue in the face but the significant realizations have to come through you and from you.

The question now becomes: what are you going to do? I can tell only you that I hang in there. As long as your W is in The Fog, hope is present. Once her thinking is no longer contaminated by its presence and her responses remain the same, you may at some point want to reevaluate your stance. BTW, if it is an MLC, that condition further complicates the stew.

Again, you have my best wishes here that this will go the way you want. We're pulling for you...

Ammon

I am afraid that you are in hugh denial. The bottom line concerning the theory of marriagebuilders is that there must be no contact with the OM. The evidence you have is pretty overwhelming concerning an affair. It is sad that your wife refuses to admit the truth and show great remorse. I will tell you this. If she is allowed to maintain social contact with the OM you will fail in the marriage. You are enabling her to destroy your marriage. I know this sounds harsh but your big heart has become a liability. Burying your head in the sand will not make the problems go away. I suggest major marriage counseling. If she stays in contact with the OM she is still disrespecting you and your marriage. You need to be proactive to save your marriage and she needs to cut contact and be truthful to you or this will simply continue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bryanp:
I am afraid that you are in hugh denial.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Confused, Yes. Denial, No. On October 6 I asked that she not contact him again. That was simply from overhearing the conversation that I did. After obtining the cell phone detail I again asked that she not contact him and that if he contacted her I wanted to know. This is the area where the disagreement comes in.

My wife at the mininum has had an emotional affair with this OM. Due to the unexplained free time it is quite possible that a PA could have occured but is something now that I can never prove except through a confession from either one or the other.

My wife knows this. My words to her were basically this;

Weather you want to admit it or not you have had an affair with this OM. It is not in the best intrest of you or our marriage recovery for you to continue calling or seeing him. I would like for you to stop all contact with this individual.

It is at this point that she reamins stubborn in that it was only a friendship. Why? Well, I guess we all know the answer to that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The bottom line concerning the theory of marriagebuilders is that there must be no contact with the OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly what is no contact? We attend the same church. They are in the same Sunday School class. She plays the piano for the quartet that he is in. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated. There was NC for a period of time. At least NC in them being alone together or phone calls. I confronted the OM on 10/7 and he was admitted to the hospital 10/8 where he stayed for 31 days. The next contact was made by her on 12/24, she wanted to wish him a Merry Christmas. He called back later that day and she saved the VM until it was either deleted by the system or because I asked her if she had called him anytime recently. She contacted him again the following week. Yes in the context of her contacting him I know that recovery is not possible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suggest major marriage counseling.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are both in IC and I am currently looking for a good pro-marriage, Christian, marriage counselor for the two of us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she stays in contact with the OM she is still disrespecting you and your marriage. You need to be proactive to save your marriage and she needs to cut contact and be truthful to you or this will simply continue.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this. At this point I am willing to continue a Plan A to the best of my ability. I think she vaguely sees the affect this person is having on her after the almost 60 days of NC. The question will be weather she is smart enough to see it herself. If not, and this pattern of her contacting him continues then I will set up boundaries in my life and marriage to hinder the process.

But no, denial is not a part of it. My IC has made sure that I DO NOT deny anything that has happened. I have accepted the fact that she has had an affair. It's just that sometimes she is so conviencing that I begin to believe her. The funny thing is that one of the Pastoral Counselors I meet with is a fallen pastor. He's the real insight to this as he continues to remind me that he could look anyone square in the face and lie about it. And he did anything within his power to convince himself and others that there was absoutely nothing wrong with what he was doing.

Ammon -

OK, so recovery cannot take place in the presence of the OM. But since I cannot control my WW what are my options. OM must be out of the picture? I replied to another post that contact can be made in Sunday School, Quartet Practice, sans changing churches how can I handle or overcome these areas of our life.

MLC - I have not done much research on this so I have no idea what it is. Guess it's time to go and read up on this too. Any brief ideas or suggestions as to how this complicates the matter?

Thanks for the encouragement! It helps greatly. And I guess along with the posting of what I have seen in the last several months really shakes me into reality once again. Those very things I mentioned I tried discussing with my wife but she gets angry at the very mention of them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I wonder why!

Nah! I know the answer, sitting here with a smile on my face right now thinking about my future knowing that God is the source of my peace and joy. With that thought I'll go back to work.

So as I look back over the last 2 months I saw good recovery, or at least signs of it. But........I guess that was becuase of NC outside of a mixed enviroment or with me not present.

ButI discovered that she did call the OM on Christmas Eve to wish him a Merry Christmas. He called back later and left her a VM.

I guess a question for FWS's. Why would she save it? I just happened to check her VM the following Saturday and there was a message from him. I asked her if she had called him and she said yes she had on Christmas Eve. The message was deleted either by the VM system on Sunday or she deleted it herself.

I aaked her again the following week after seeing his number on her cell phone again. She said yes she had called him. After looking at the call detail from her cell bill I saw where she had called and talked for 22 minutes.

So yesterday I may have done something stupid. I called the OM.
OM, I am calling you to ask for help. You told me back in October that you would do anything necessary the help me and W with our marriage. Well, my W has developed an emotional bond with you. My IC and Pastoral Counselors all agree that any social contact with you is a major problem for our recovery process.

What do you want me to do?

If my wife calls you, refuse the call. If she leaves you a message to call her do not return the call. Basically, outside of Hello and Good Morning, disappear from her life.

But, this time he got defensive, unlike the other times I talked to him. He acted just like my wife when questioned about the pattern of phone calls. Told me I just needed to let it go and have a day reckoning with my W. I asked for suggestions but he could not offer any. He did say that he would try to avoid her but on the condition that I tell my W I had called him and asked him not to talk to her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Well, I chose not to tell her, but when she got in late last night I could tell that she was very despondent about something. I checked her cell phone for a call from him but did not see one. But......if her phone is turned off and the call goes to VM it will not generate a call record. Not even on the call detail from the bill. I do know that she checked her voice mail around 7:00 pm and the only time she checks it is if the phone tells her that there is one. Calling it later there are no saved messages.

Despondent, well, from the time she arrived home until she climbed into bed she spoke not a word to me. I told her good night and leaned over for a kiss. No activity from her

I ask if there is a kiss tonight. Nope!

I ask if there is any particular reason. I guess becuase I do not have a kiss for you.

This morning when I wake her up I ask if the reserves for kisses refreshed during the night. Nope.

Oh well. I guess if she continues to call him I'll have to make a call to his wife. Maybe she can straighten him out a bit.

Trusting Her --

You can bet the farm that OM and WW have talked about your phone call to him. Why did you choose not to tell her you had called him? I think you might want to sit down with her, open the discussion by telling her what you've done (even though she already knows!), and airing it out a bit. Might prove helpful.

BTW, that subject (whether or not to contact OP) is the subject of great and frequent debate on this board, with both pros and cons offered with much passion. You might want to read one of those threads (see WAT's--a long one), even though you are "after the fact."

Frankly, I wouldn't push the "kiss" business at all, especially in light of her silence and coldness. She's angry with you for getting involved in her "private life" -- makes little sense, I know, but all part of operating in The Fog. Now you've got proof (your phone conversation) that both of them are Fog-bound (OM got defensive, told you that you to "just needed to let it go--as if it were all that simple and easy). She's not where you want her to be and can't be there for now--expecting her to want a kiss or contact with you in that way is simply not realistic. Bide your time and no LB's.

"I guess if she continues to call him I'll have to make a call to his wife." -- Also the subject of protracted debate and disagreement at MB. Read those threads also and get some good perspective from those who have gone both ways.

Have you read the Plan A material here on this site? Its No-Contact (NC) requirement is vital to your marriage's recovery. As long as The Fog is in, she won't agree but I'd start with it anyhow.
If OM won't leave the church, you and W need to go elsewhere (sorry, but it's one of the sad fallouts from this A). She should not be playing in the Quartet and shouldn't be teaching Sunday School with him in the picture. Without that radical of a response, you will not be able to overcome this major obstacle. It's far easier to change churches than to change marriage partners.

If you want this, you're going to have to do the bulk of the work to keep it afloat, at least for the present. She's not going to be able to help with this at all until she's out of The Fog. If and when she comes to her senses, only then she can be in the reconciliation picture. Hang in...

Ammon

Why did you choose not to tell her you had called him? Advice of Pastoral Counsel

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">expecting her to want a kiss or contact with you in that way is simply not realistic.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There was NC for almost 3 months, October, November, December. It was the later part of November that she kissed me goodbye one morning and again that night. She gave them with the explanation of "If I do not kiss you goodbye it's not becuase I am mad at you. It's just that in the past I felt that it was expected of me. I just want to make sure that I want to do it."

The slight signs of some affection continued to grow sightly, until Christmas Eve of course.

Have you read the Plan A material here on this site? Yes, but prehaps I need to go back and refresh myself on NC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want this, you're going to have to do the bulk of the work to keep it afloat, at least for the present. She's not going to be able to help with this at all until she's out of The Fog. If and when she comes to her senses, only then she can be in the reconciliation picture. Hang in...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess this is the hard part. I started Plan A in August, not aware that my wife was involved with this OM. Continued this until D-day of 10/07/2002. I guess the month of October was full of LB's to an extent with this discovery. It was that day that I called her best friend and she made the comment "Whatever you are doing, just keep doing it. Why, just the other day your W made the comment "Sometimes I sit back and look at him now and wonder how I ever got myself into this mess." Now granted, this comment was made before my wife, best friend, or OM was aware of the conversation I had overheard the previous night.

So I guess I attempted a Plan A while the affair was ongoing. I feel that I am sometimes close to my end. Yesterday, as is today, was and is a very bad day. Last night I picked up the children from school and just wanted to pack their bags and leave. Instead, I took them to BK for supper and while they played on the playground I sat in the car watching them, biting my wallet to keep from screaming and cried my eyes out for almost an hour. Today is not much better. Why? I called my wife at work and within 10 minutes she said she had to go. I get ten minutes and the OM got 22.

So what do you do when you get weak? Where does the encouragement come from? My faith has grown in the last five months but now I feel that even that is beginning to weaken. I know that it will return as soon as I am able to focus again, just trying to get there is sometimes hard. I have not felt this way since D-day. What gives?

P.S. One thing I forgot to add before. there was a time that I had a very faithful wife. This might be question better suited for the women here as their emotional attachment to things seems to be stronger at times.

My wife gave her Bible to our 5 year old duaghter back in April or May of this year. This is the Bible that her parents gave her when she graduated from High School. The one that is full of notes, scribbles, memories, anniversary dates, wedding information and other what nots. Why would a mother give away something like that to a 5 year old?

A second thought is a 40" banner I and the children made for her back before D-Day. We each took a 10" section and basically told her how special she was and how much we loved her. Her reaction? Complete anger, she never even made it past the section I made. Her comment? Why do you want to make me remember. Our precious children never got the praise or recognition they deserved for the work they put into that.

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: trusting her ]</small>

Trusting Her --

"Where does the encouragement come from?" -- This board is a good place to start. We've "heard it all" and we're able to view your situation from a more remote perspective. Add in your counselor, your church and faith, your own dedication and commitment, the absolute necessity to be stable for your children, and the inescapable fact that you need to do this "hanging in there" for yourself. You will want to be able to look yourself in the mirror and say you did the very best you could.

I probably missed something in your story, thus I'm confused: "I started Plan A in August, not aware that my wife was involved with this OM." Plan A specifically addresses a WS and A situation. Were you not aware of your W's involvement with OM at that time? I know your D-Day was in October.

You'll drive yourself crazy by comparing your phone time with W to OM's phone time with her. There are much more productive and healthier things to think about.

Likewise, you get in your own way when you say dwell on the "up" times since the A, expecting them always to be there. Remember this horrendous process is filled with ups and downs; the ups sustain our hopes while the downs plunge us back into the pit again. The given is this roller-coaster ride and its guaranteed inconsistencies. Right now, it's a down time but this process needs move in these stages. I believe that the downs are as necessary to any recovery as are the ups.

Part of this "weakening" feeling is physical in nature as well as emotional; the constant stress and worry is taking its toll. You have to stay healthy for you and your children. Maybe consider some mild tranquilizers for some short-term help. Many of us have gone that route.

This hurts very, very much and continues to cause great pain for you; I'm very sorry, Trusting Her. Remember that we continue to be here. I'm glad when I see long posts from you; the cathartic effect from "getting it all down on paper" is not to be underestimated. Please keep in touch...

Ammon

Ammon --

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I probably missed something in your story, thus I'm confused: "I started Plan A in August, not aware that my wife was involved with this OM." Plan A specifically addresses a WS and A situation. Were you not aware of your W's involvement with OM at that time? I know your D-Day was in October.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I started a modified plan A in August. At that time I was not aware of this site or its principals. All I knew was that my wife told me she no longer had any feelings for me. That she loved me as the father of her children. I moved out and returned 2 weeks later. Moved out you say. I guess a male trait of fixing things. You feel uncomfortable when I am around, I can fix that. I left. But realizing my mistake I returned under protest. The usual "What about my space".

My expectations when I came home. To love my wife unconditional, expecting nothing in return. Meet each and every need that she would allow me to meet. Basically I embraced the following ideals:

For romance to be established agape love must be present.

God's command for me is to seek my wife's well-being, whether she deserves it or not.

My responsibility is to love my wife

By doing what God commands, he will honor it.

How do I do this? I go back and do the first works, asking myself how did I treat her then and what is different in the way I treat her now.

I understand that love is not a feeling but a response. Love is action. Feelings follow actions and not the other way around.

Following the idea that if one person commits to becoming an agape lover things will get better, believing that therre is not a person who can withstand agape love over a long period of time without responding.

Little did I know that by showing her agape love I was LB'ing all over the place. My IC and Pastoral counselors would ask me how things were going and the response was always, no change. She's still mad about something.

As I continued to practice this agape love and light begin to fill our house again it was impossible for the darkness to stay hidden.

So in October I overhear the infamous conversation that really begins to shed light on the reality of what was going on in my wife's life. It was then that I learned of this site and what a Plan A really was. But as of yet she will not agree to NC as he is only a close friend.

She reminded me again Tuesday night that I ruined a perfectly good friendship.

Ruined I ask. How did I do that? All I did was discover a close friendship that I was never aware of. After discovery I approached each of you simply to warn you of the dangers of this friendship. It was not my fault the OM was admitted to the hospital the very next morning. Which brings up another thought. I knew that he was in the hospital that morning but failed to mention it to my wife until that evening. We had a MC session scheduled with her IC that day at 4:00 PM. Later that evening I mentioned to her that he was in the hospital but she never asked me about him. In hindsight, after I receivd her cell phone detail. As soon as we hung up from that call she called information and got the numbers for all the hospitals in town and then called each one. She could have simply asked me and I could have told her which hospital and which room.

And therein lies the reason for my modified Plan A without even knowing that a Plan A existed. The only thing I am missing now is the NC part which I pray for constantly.

Trusting Her --

OK, now I understand. Thanks for setting me straight about your "modified Plan A."

When she said on Tuesday night that you had ruined a perfectly good friendship, I'm assuming she meant W and OM, right? Does "ruined" mean that she's claiming NC now with OM? If so, let's hope this thing is totally ruined forever!

"But as of yet she will not agree to NC as he is only a close friend." -- OK, bottom line, whatever she wants to call the OM, whatever term could be applied (and I can think of some doozies!), you as her husband are completely uncomfortable with their contact (and you can tell her why). POJA rules! She needs to agree to give up any and all contact, period! Get either her or OM out of the Quartet, Sunday School, ditto the church. The two of them cannot occupy the same square; one's gonna have to go. You need to set and stick to some boundaries. Is her behavior acceptable to you? -- of course not! Hang in there,

Ammon