I normally post on GQII, but thought I might come here to seek some help as well.

I'll try to keep this short, but it's sadly a long story. I was the WS and had a EA/PA for 6 months. D-day was 6 July 2002. My H had been living in Germany for 2 years and was due home in the August. Contact with OM ended almost immediately and there has been NC since. When H first came home I was deeply in withdrawal and had found MB towards the end of July. I took the advice of Just Learning to stay with H for a minimum of 6 months, to give ourselves time to settle with the emotions of the A, and also, to try and get used to living with each other full time (we had seen each other every 2/3 weeks whilst H was in Germany).

H was, naturally, devastated, and althogh he read SAA, after an initial and short term change in is his behaviour, it appeared he did not want to follow the MB principles or involve them in our lives. Please do not think I am blaming H for the way he behaved, but it was traumatic to say the least. H would regularly verbally abuse me, contacted OM which resulted in his being arrested and cautioned for harrassment, and generally it has been a very miserable time. In the first couple of months after H returned, it appeared that although he wanted to stay with me, he did not actually do very much to save the M.

For my part, for the first couple of months, I just coped with living with H and his eratic and abusive behaviour. The first time the Police telephoned, I believe I suffered some sort of mini-breakdown - I ended up staying in bed all weekend, and soon after began taking Anti-Ds for a short time. As H's behaviour and hurt manifested itself, I crumbled inside with the realisation of the damage that I had caused without being able to find any apparent reason for doing what I had. I begun IC, to try and work out why I could have caused such terrible pain and suffering to the person who I was supposed to love and care most for. For me, it was not simply about whether my ENs were being met or not (certainly H's ENs weren't being met, but he didn't have the A), but something more. I finally feel that I have a better understanding about that, and rather than beating myself up every day, it's only every other day now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

After a specifc incident towards the end of September, I realised that one night, I had behaved towards H in a really bad way, and I think this coupled with my shame and remorse of the A, led me to review my thinking of our M. I started to try to make the M work, but by this time, H had pretty much lost interest in making it work. As our M lunged from one disaster to another, week in week out, little I did or said made any difference. It culminated in H staying out all night on a Friday towards the end of November. It transpired that he had spent the night with one of his single female colleagues, and I believe that he did not have sex with her.

For me, the most painful thing was the not knowing where he was or what had happened to him, and that he had knowingly not telephoned me because "I didn't think about you Lisa". Strangely, it seemed that after that night we both had a perspective from the other side of the fence. Sadly, H decided that not only was he not healing, he was causing me too much pain and decided to move out - he did this on 6 December, 5 months on from d-day.

H and I spent Christmas together, although New Year apart. After a rocky start, we spent several days really enjoying each other's company and having a very pleasant time. The rocky start was mainly because I found his mobile, and he had been telephoning and texting his colleague. One message she sent him said "Night night xx". So much for this being a friend.

Last week, H came round (at my invitation). I told him that I had realised we had unresolved issues from our M that had affected us to this day and would he be willing to help me resolve them. He said he did not want to recover our M. It also transpired, that although at Christmas he said OW was away overseas, within days of her being back, he had been out with her. This was particularly upsetting, because I had asked him to go out on that day and he had rejected me - I know why now.

I'm sorry this is so long now, but the questions I have are this.

1. Even though I have told H that he is embarking on his own EA/PA which is clearly affecting how he will feel about me (Quote, "She makes me feel better", and I know I certainly don't), H does not see this is an A. He just keeps saying "We are separated". I say, "Yes, but we're married". Cerri, if you're reading, I noticed in your post that you said you were having an A, but didn't realise, what made you realise, and what can I do to make H realise that he is?
2. Should I contact OW? I am sure H is not being 100% honest with her. H has warned me off doing this specifically.
3. Given that I was the WS, but I was plan-Aing H (successful in terms of my own personal growth), what can I do now, because it had little affect at the time when he was living with me?
4. I feel that I can cope with the EA, but not PA, is there anything I can do to stop it and how?
5. I have told H that for the time being I do not want to see or speak to him - I told him it was not because of anger, but because of sadness, and being unable to deal with the situation.

BTW, H has continually refused to attend MC, after one session we had, when he really lost it and got angry. He is having IC though.

I am so confused. I want to give up. The pain and trauma of the past six months has left me drained and with little hope left of anything. H did tell me that he still loved me, misses me and cares, but that he cannot "get over" his feelings.

Sorry this is so long and thank you for any comments if you've made it till the end.

Lisa

<small>[ January 13, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Hi Lisa,

1. Even though I have told H that he is embarking on his own EA/PA which is clearly affecting how he will feel about me (Quote, "She makes me feel better", and I know I certainly don't), H does not see this is an A. He just keeps saying "We are separated". I say, "Yes, but we're married". Cerri, if you're reading, I noticed in your post that you said you were having an A, but didn't realise, what made you realise, and what can I do to make H realise that he is?

First let me say that Cerri is always reading when she sees her name in lights!!!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Actually, I didn't realize and wouldn't have admitted it if I did until much time spent here. The whole idea that it was an A during separation was completely foreign to me.

I don't know if there is anything you can do to make him realize that what he is doing is infidelity. There are however some things you can and should do in terms of how to handle the A.

First is to tell him how much it hurts you. Not that he is immoral, unethical, a sleaze, hypocritical, or any of the things you might be tempted to say about him. You need to keep it about YOU. I feel_____. And it should be about the pain and the fear that his actions are causing you.

Also, tell your family and your friends what he is doing and that you want to save your marriage and whatever support they could give you would be welcome.

Tell, tell, tell....

2. Should I contact OW? I am sure H is not being 100% honest with her. H has warned me off doing this specifically

Good heavens yes!!!!! Contact her, tell her that you love your husband and that you want your marriage to work. Ask that she remove herself from her involvement with him. Tell her that she is standing in the way of a husband and wife.

Now, most likely she'll blow you off. It might even appear that they are closer after that. So be it. It still introduces a consequence and a level of discomfort to their relationship, and that is what you want to accomplish.

3. Given that I was the WS, but I was plan-Aing H (successful in terms of my own personal growth), what can I do now, because it had little affect at the time when he was living with me?


Uhhhmmmmmm if you were the WS, then really you had no call to be Plan Aing anyone. Plan A is a strategy to separate the lover from the spouse. That's it, plain and simple. Until you became a BS, there was no call for Plan A on your part.

Now, what happened with your A and subsequent reconciliation is that there was no Plan for Recovery (P4C) following the A. Most affairs end. Most marriages do not end due to the infidelity. They end because the conditons under which the infidelity occured are not addressed.

So, when your A ended, the abuse on his part should have been addressed before you came home, needs should have been identified, and there should be some sort of strategy to move forward.

I would guess that he is dead set against the MB stuff because it addresses abuse in the form of demands, disrespect and anger (DD&A) very strongly. If he saw his own behavior in there he probably became even angrier and defensive (as anger addicts tend to do) and decided the whole thing was not for him.

Harley's work insists that those things must be eliminated before you can go anywhere else.

4. I feel that I can cope with the EA, but not PA, is there anything I can do to stop it and how?


What have you done so far? What Plan A things have you done now that you are the BS? What LBers have you done recently?

5. I have told H that for the time being I do not want to see or speak to him - I told him it was not because of anger, but because of sadness, and being unable to deal with the situation.


Well then, you are effectively in Plan B. And there you need to stay. Once you draw that line in the sand going backwards says that you are willing to accept the A. It's a sort of intermittent reward, and that is not a good thing.

Have you done a Plan B letter? Do you know what needs to go in it?

I can help you with that if you like.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>
4. I feel that I can cope with the EA, but not PA, is there anything I can do to stop it and how?
I am so confused. I want to give up. The pain and trauma of the past six months has left me drained and with little hope left of anything. H did tell me that he still loved me, misses me and cares, but that he cannot "get over" his feelings.

Lisa</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa,
in the quote above you say on the one hand you can't cope with a PA, then on the other hand, you go on to say your H loves you but cannot get over his feelings. Ironic. I am sure he feels the same way, he is having a hard time getting over your PA. That's not to say I approve of his actions, but I think you have to understand the devestation you subjected him to, and understand it will take time for him to get over it.
Michael

I forgot to add that I do think it's possible to get over it and move on toward a better marriage.
Michael

<small>[ January 13, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

Michael,
having read many of Lisa's posts, I think she understands. At this point, she is trying to figure out how to move ahead, and telling her how much she hurt him takes her back (at least I believe it serves no useful purpose to re-hash what she has already dealt with. ) Lets address what she is asking about and not hurt her further.
BTW, no disprect to you, I just didn't know how well you know Lisa's story.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>Michael,
having read many of Lisa's posts, I think she understands. At this point, she is trying to figure out how to move ahead, and telling her how much she hurt him takes her back (at least I believe it serves no useful purpose to re-hash what she has already dealt with. ) Lets address what she is asking about and not hurt her further.
BTW, no disprect to you, I just didn't know how well you know Lisa's story.

SS</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know Lisa's story well. It is my humble opinion that most WS's, Lisa included, do not really understand just what they have done to their BS and the M. Then they wonder why the BS is taking so long to get over it, and why the BS is doing strange things, or making poor choices, in general not dealing well with what happened. I am not taking shots at Lisa, in fact, I think she is one of the few WS's here who has a good grasp of what she did, and where they need to go from here. But, that does not mean I can't point out to her that how she is feeling about a possible PA is how he feels about an actual PA.
Michael

Lisa - I had a very short message in mind for you, but then decided to read the others' responses first.

cerri beat me to it.

Plan B.

You have a rare opportunity to Plan B on an equal playing field. You can claim understanding of both his decisions and his pain, validate his anger, and relate to his perspective with empathy. Simply put, you've both been there, done that. Now identify with each other.

I suggest you start crafting a Plan B letter with this extra angle.

WAT

Thank you all for your thoughts and responses.

It is quite late here, so just a short note, but I will come back tomorrow.

Tonight I went to IC - I told her where we were at and she said "Why do you want to cling so badly to someone who so clearly does not want to cling to you?" I wish I could have an answer to that, but I guess in short, Plan B it is.

Lisa

quote:

I went to IC - I told her where we were at and she said "Why do you want to cling so badly to someone who so clearly does not want to cling to you?" I wish I could have an answer to that.

This is a question that you need to address. Why?
I think you need to answer that seriously before you do anything else.

The time a person spends in plan B can be a time to heal and start to look at things objectively. Healing can take place because you are not exposed to the actions that are causing heavy withdrawls from your love bank. And objective thinking because by not (contacting him) your mind won't be clouded by interpersonal exchanges that may feed wishful thinking or paranoid speculation on your part.

Another apparent benefit of plan B is that it seems (in many cases) to become a wake up call for the spouse that is sitting on the fence. Afterall, plan B does have an ominous image to many a BS and WS, and so it can have a very sobering effect on both that may prompt him/her to decide on way or another regarding rebuilding the M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>she said "Why do you want to cling so badly to someone who so clearly does not want to cling to you?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep in mind Lisa, that this question is too easily asked of ANY betrayed spouse whose WS is in the throes of an affair. NONE OF THEM want to cling to the BS!!!!! Duh!!!!!!!!!

I question both your IC's scope of vision and Keepmvn4wrd's agenda.

WAT

Lisa, I take the view that IC's are only interested in what their client wants. If you are wondering about getting out then the IC will work and phrase onlong that line in order that the client will be happy with IC.

Now MC's are different. They should looking at reintegration for M so the agenda is different in my mind.

Neil.

Well back again, and first off, thank you, particularly Cerri for your very insightful and thoughtful post.

Secondly, Michael, I have to say that "getting over it" are the words my H used. I have never asked H to "just get over it" on with it, forget it or anything else. Most conversations I have with him start by my apologising for the deep pain and distress I have caused him. No, I don't know what it is like to suffer as he did, but surely because I don't want to know, is that so very bad of me? Being honest on this board, all I have said is that I do not know if I could cope with H having a PA with OW. This is also given that I have asked him not to be involved with her, asked him to give us another chance, and have done everything in my power to address why I did the worst thing ever in my life to the one I was supposed to love the most. Michael, my H has kept a copy of an e-mail that I sent to an agony aunt (yup I was desperate at the time and hadn't found MB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) and reads it so that "I can remind myself of how I felt on the day that I found out". I actually think this is incredibly damaging to my H and his self worth/being, and will not actually help him at all in is recovery or to "get over it". I hope this clears this up, and thanks SS, don't worry, I don't feel set back, just wanted to let Michael know.

Neil/WAT I hear what you are saying about my IC, but I guess we go back to alot of Lisa fog time too when I first started about how much OM meant to me and how I didn't know whether it was possible to rebuild my M. Neil, I think you make a valid point about what they think we want to hear. I guess that to start with MC alone will be so hard, and you go back to the beginning of a very long and painful story - sometimes I find it so hard to talk about what I did, I feel ashamed and guilt ridden, it makes it difficult to do.

I suppose the other thing is that whilst H was still the BS (gosh this gets confusing!), he had already made his mind up that he didn't want me. Now that he is WS, I think it is just confusing him and his feelings further - and me frankly.

"Healing can take place because you are not exposed to the actions that are causing heavy withdrawls from your love bank. And objective thinking because by not (contacting him) your mind won't be clouded by interpersonal exchanges that may feed wishful thinking or paranoid speculation on your part."

Once again, thank you TMCM, you always come along with something very apt at the right time! I think that although (as Cerri rightly queries), I was making an attempt at Plan A, my H has not been the nicest or easiest of people to live with prior to his moving out. I know why, and that it was me that did it, but I think his actions most definitely have been withdrawing from my love bank. I also think that all my objective thinking went straight out the window, because all I was trying to do was please H, ask him to give me another chance, etc etc. My analogy is that I was like a puppy dog craving attention, affection and a chance. Yup, I have been both paranoid and wishful!

In a way I agree with this perspective of Plan B, and within that I also tend to agree with Keepmvn4wrd's thoughts. I must appear from what I say to my C as very clinging, and H must appear not to want me - he has also made that very clear to me. Perhaps Plan B will give me the time to think about why - I have never been a clinging person, and let's face it, clinging will not be attractive to H. As some of you will also know, I have very serious issues about physical desire for my H which has been non existant for some time. Whilst I appreciate that people say desire can come and go, I do not know how if at all my desire will come back, and H knows this too.

WAT thank you for the guidance on Plan B and what I should include and Cerri, I would definitely like some advice on drafting something. I suppose the thing is though, I have told H that because he is unable or unwilling to reconcile and his R with OW, I am too sad and hurt to want to see or speak to him. Do I still put this in a letter?

Given that, do I also still contact OW, if my intentions now are to move to Plan B. Cerri I know that you said definitely contact her, but would H not think this strange and also that I was being difficult if I am saying I don't want to see or speak to him, but she should leave well alone? H and I do not have financial arrangements or children to deal with, so could someone clarify why I would need to do a letter? Would it be to clearly state that I do love him, and would be willing to work with him if this is what he wants, but am not prepared to do that with OW around. Also, again as he doens't think she is OW, will this just irritate him?

Cerri you are right about the confusing nature of my attempts at Plan A which are usually for the BS. I guess I wanted to identify the parts of me that had been so damaging to our R and within that look at being a better person for myself and for my H. You are also right that there was no plan for recovery, because in the early days I was in withdrawal and H was intermitently wanting to stay, but also making demands, very angry etc. I also think you are right about what H may have to face if he were to embrace MB principles. I believe that H is an angry person, and within our R the two of us make each other angry people. I suppose what will also be near impossible is for him to recognise anything given that he does not think he is having an A.

Sorry, again this has got so long, and thank you if you have made it to the end.

Lisa

Hello Lisa,

I have been reading you posting and I wanted to give you my perspective on the physical attraction thing. I am a WS so this may not apply entirely to your husband but her goes.

I think the knowledge that you are not physically attracted to your husband is bad. The fact that he knows it is worse. This is especially bad if he is, in fact, reasonbly attractive. I think it is important for most men, and especially professional men, to feel that their partners actually want them physically. I know I am a good provider, good father, mildy entertaining at parties, ..., but I don't get very many daily reminders that I am physically desirable. My wife and most women get these reminders very often from their husbands.

One of the factors that started me down my own road to hell was that I never felt like my wife wanted me. She would occasionally have sex with me but it didn't seem like she really wanted me.

In our case it was a communication problem, but it did the damage just the same. I don't know how to help you in this area but I bet if you could address this issue first then your husband would be more willing to work on your marriage.

Your husband is looking for truth, although he is married to you, you are a stranger even though you feel you know him. You need to realize that even if his EN maybe werent being met he had a commitment to be your husband.

He finds truth by being wanted by another woman, he will trust her completely because he wants to trust and wants to find somone to confide in. To him the OW is real because she has not thrown him away and she wants him, you didnt want him and were lying to him for months while you were sleeping with another man, he doesnt think he knows you and he really doesnt know you. He knows only that you are a liar and can sleep with other men while being married to him, remember you told him you loved him while you were naked in bed with another man (maybe not the exact same time but a few hours after or before). He uses the "seperation" to justify why he can be with another woman. He thinks he knows the OW and she loves him, he wants to believe in love and knows in his mind that you dont really love him.

What he doesnt realize is that people like yourself see love differently then he sees it. It is going to be very hard for you two to have a relationship because "love and marriage" is seen differently. People have different oppinions of what "love and marriage" is. Your husband would have died for you, he thinks to himself that you couldnt even keeps your pants on for him. This is very hard to take for a proud man. I have no idea how you can repair the damage you did.

If you figure everything out let me know, i am a BS and feel exactly how your husband feels. It is very sad things are what they are.

LIL-

Glad to see that you've started to formulate a plan to deal with your WH. I think it's definitely a wise decision and is certainly better than going out and doing something in haste (like filing or asking your H to file) that you might later regret. As was pointed out in TMCM's post, going to a Plan B lets you preserve the love you have left for your H. Hopefully, this time apart will cause him to pause and perhaps reconsider whether he wants to continue down the road he's on. I also noticed that Cerri recommended that you contact the OW. I could see where this would be beneficial because you could clearly convey your desire to save the marriage on the chance that she's unclear about your intentions. It's even possible that she has enough moral fiber that she'd choose to end the R. Of course that's not likely but it's happened to others. In my case, my XWW didn't have a problem with me contacting the OM. In fact, I did it in her presence and it made ME feel better that he knew where I was coming from. IMO the key would be to convey your feelings and complete the call in a civil and respectful tone. Good luck and keep us posted!

PS Bog - Based on your comments with regards to LIL's situation, it's pretty clear you're torn up about the physical part of your WW's A and I'm sorry to see that.

Hi Lisa,

Here are the guidelines for the things that need to go into a Plan B letter, and how to execute it.

I'd be happy to review your letter before you send it, if you think that would be helpful.

Cerri

1. I love you
2. I married you for life; I want to stay married to you.
3. I know that there are things I did which hurt you, and things you needed that I neglected to do. I understand how those contributed to the breakdown of the marriage.
4. I am willing and determined to address those things and to be the wife you have always wanted.
5. The relationship that you are having with______ is so painful for me that it is destroying the love I have for you.
6. Until that relationship is ended and you agree to never see or contact her again, I must ask that you not see or speak to me at all.

I would suggest you send a copy of the letter to him and to OW... perhaps some family members as well. Put a note at the bottom of each one that asks for support (to his family, your friends, anyone else you can think of.... church leader) On hers, put a note using her name and ask that she please end her relation ship with your husband. Tell her that you want to save your marriage and that her involvement with him is making that impossible.

Putting yourself out there? Yep. But Lisa.... I can tell you, as can many others, there are few things as painful, scary, horrifying, and devaluing as divorce. An affair is awful it rips your heart out. Divorce crushes you even more. Take a risk and use the Harley steps that have been shown to work.

Lisa, Plan B is to protect you from further pain. It's not a way to force him to "wake up" and see what he's doing wrong.

At first, it may even appear to bring thenm closer together. But remember, affairs end. Virtually none of them go on to become permanent relationships. Oh yeah, there's some that do, but even in those cases they tend not to last.

The big picure of Harley's concepts is that you do what you can to show that you are willing to be a fabulous spouse. When/if that doesn't entice the WS spouse back, you initiate Plan B/no contact so that YOU don't lose your love for the person who is being so cruel and hurting you. The hope is that when the A ends (which it will) that the WS will recall your efforts and be willing to give it another shot.

Plan A will not save your marriage. It's simply a strategy to show that you can and will address the underlying issues of the A. While an A is in progress, there is nothing you can to to repair or restore the marriage. The affair must end. And if YOU are going to be willing to work at it when that happens, you need to protect your Love Bank in the interim..... Plan B.

When the A ends and he comes looking for you, you will be entering one of the most critical stages of saving your marriage. That is the setting out the conditions of recovery. Until that happens and they are agreed to.... you stay in Plan B.

Most marriages do not end due to affairs. They end because the conditions which led to the affair are not addressed. Things such as anger, control, independent behavior.... you get the idea.

Please let me know if you'd like me to look at a Plan B letter, or if there's anything else I can help you with.

C

Hey Lisa,

I really liked the letter Cerri suggested, she is my main advisor. I would suggest that you specifically mention your own affair and take the blame for it. Especially if you are going to send this to family members

I have given my wife, POJA style, the option to at anytime reveal my affairs to friends and family. She has not done this, although many of the guys at work alredy know. She does appreciate that she can do this and I think it has helped our recovery.

Jack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri2:
<strong>Hi Lisa,

Here are the guidelines for the things that need to go into a Plan B letter, and how to execute it.

I'd be happy to review your letter before you send it, if you think that would be helpful.

Cerri

1. I love you
2. I married you for life; I want to stay married to you.
3. I know that there are things I did which hurt you, and things you needed that I neglected to do. I understand how those contributed to the breakdown of the marriage.
4. I am willing and determined to address those things and to be the wife you have always wanted.
5. The relationship that you are having with______ is so painful for me that it is destroying the love I have for you.
6. Until that relationship is ended and you agree to never see or contact her again, I must ask that you not see or speak to me at all.

I would suggest you send a copy of the letter to him and to OW... perhaps some family members as well. Put a note at the bottom of each one that asks for support (to his family, your friends, anyone else you can think of.... church leader) On hers, put a note using her name and ask that she please end her relation ship with your husband. Tell her that you want to save your marriage and that her involvement with him is making that impossible.

Putting yourself out there? Yep. But Lisa.... I can tell you, as can many others, there are few things as painful, scary, horrifying, and devaluing as divorce. An affair is awful it rips your heart out. Divorce crushes you even more. Take a risk and use the Harley steps that have been shown to work.

Lisa, Plan B is to protect you from further pain. It's not a way to force him to "wake up" and see what he's doing wrong.

At first, it may even appear to bring thenm closer together. But remember, affairs end. Virtually none of them go on to become permanent relationships. Oh yeah, there's some that do, but even in those cases they tend not to last.

The big picure of Harley's concepts is that you do what you can to show that you are willing to be a fabulous spouse. When/if that doesn't entice the WS spouse back, you initiate Plan B/no contact so that YOU don't lose your love for the person who is being so cruel and hurting you. The hope is that when the A ends (which it will) that the WS will recall your efforts and be willing to give it another shot.

Plan A will not save your marriage. It's simply a strategy to show that you can and will address the underlying issues of the A. While an A is in progress, there is nothing you can to to repair or restore the marriage. The affair must end. And if YOU are going to be willing to work at it when that happens, you need to protect your Love Bank in the interim..... Plan B.

When the A ends and he comes looking for you, you will be entering one of the most critical stages of saving your marriage. That is the setting out the conditions of recovery. Until that happens and they are agreed to.... you stay in Plan B.

Most marriages do not end due to affairs. They end because the conditions which led to the affair are not addressed. Things such as anger, control, independent behavior.... you get the idea.

Please let me know if you'd like me to look at a Plan B letter, or if there's anything else I can help you with.

C</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Good afternoon everybody and thank you very much for you support.

I'm going to crib something first that Espoir said on my other thread

"I think you are in quite a difficult spot. Your H didn't seem to Plan A you when he found out about the affair. He didn't look in himself to figure out why you might have gone to someone else to meet your needs. You were in withdrawal and very defensive initially, so you didn't really Plan A him until some time had gone by, by which time he had already withdrawn. It makes me think of Jen Brown's husband a bit, and of hopeful person's. These guys are BS, but they did contribute to the climate that produced the A. They are also unwilling to examine themselves and prefer to take a holier than thou approach. "

I think this is a much better summary than I could produce. The only thing I would say about my H is that sometimes he actually feels that it is ALL his fault, which of course it isn't, but his holier than thou approach, is a protection from swinging completely the opposite way.

Cerri, thanks so much for this. Given the thoughts from above, I think I may need to do some sort of adaptation, because technically (if it would be technical!), I was not really in the position to Plan A, but I did anyway. I still think most of the things you listed are correct, but perhaps the emphasis more on the A leading H to want to move away from me. I think I will draft something and then post what I do - I guess I also want to incorporate some way of saying that I know he feels his mind is already made up about out future. I will print your post off, because there are some very helpful things in there.

I understand Plan A is about showing what a wonderful spouse you can be but doesn't work if your spouse is already destroyed by you. I also worry that H thinks he cannot repair so his A is ongoing (you say about repair and recovery not being able to take place whilst the A is ongoing). I hope it will fizzle out. She is much younger than him, and I know it is a rebound reaction from me - he wants to feel better about himself.

Cerri, I would appreciate your comments on a Plan B letter somewhat unique to my situation and I will come back to you with that. I know that my love for H will dwindle and I will LB him if I continue to see him whilst he is developing his R with her, so I know this is the right thing to do. I think Espoir is also right in saying that I don't want to perhaps dramatise it too much, given the way things have transpired in this situation.

Hey Litchfield thank you so much for your support. I do feel that I am beginning to have a better and clearer idea of what I need to do. I think also you are right about a call to OW. H has probably told her the basics, i.e. I had an A we are seperated, but of course, she probably things I don't give a damn. I would be surprised if he told her about our conversation last Thursday, so perhaps she just needs to know that. As Cerri said, even if I make the situation uncomfortbale for her that wouldn't be a bad thing.

Jack - thank you for your thoughts. I have put a lot of time into working out why and how this all happened, and you are right about how my H feels. I know that I have to address what went wrong between us that caused my lack of desire for my H. I did identify a critical incident, and part of my conversation with H last week was whether he would be willing to work with me to address that, and in so doing, work towards mending the "chemistry" between us. H is not prepared to do that, and whilst there are certain things I can do alone, in the long run I need him. I wish you well with your recovery.

Bog - I wasn't quite sure what to say to you if anything. Firstly, I found some of your comments highly offensive. I do not know what you mean about "people like you". You do not know me or my H. You cannot assume how my H feels as you do not know him, or what he has said to me. You may have an understanding of what he and I both might feel because of your own situation. I also strongly object to you inferring that my view of love and marriage is inferior to yours. I openly admit that I have made the biggest mistake of my life by having an A, but incidentally, I abhor the notion of infedility and even my H says "I cannot believe it of you, it was not you". Whilst of course it was me, in many ways, it wasn't, and I will have to live with that shame, guilt and knowledge of how I destroyed the man I love for the rest of my life. You make me out as if I am a tart (I would rather you move some parts of your post, if not all of it). You do not know the history of my M, what has passed between me or my H, or why I ended up where I did - I certainly still have to work that out, but nothing will ever justify what I did.

I wonder Bog, did you post only to criticise a FWS or was there anything of value that you wanted to let me know about how I should deal with my WS (now that he is) and my current situation. I am more than capable of examining my own dispicable behaviour without feeling criticised and devalued by a stranger.

I realise that recently I have been spending too much time at MB, reading, learning and hoping to make myself a better person. Posts like Bog's make me feel worse about myself and negative about coming to MB. I will still be here reading and lurking from time to time, and posting if I need help (Cerri the Plan B letter), but perhaps not as much as I have been recently.

Thanks again to all of you who have willingly helped and supported me.

Lisa

P.S. Jack - just saw your post, and it coincides with what I wrote. Sadly, I would not be able to send this to family members etc. because H is incredibly private and has not told his Mum even. I may just phone certain people for support.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Bog's post made me say ouch too... A lot of unresolved anger in his harsh words.