I think my wife is having an affair and know that if she is not she is being very dishonest about a relationship she has with a "friend"

I hope the following does not go on for too long for everyone to read it...

In the summer she said we drifted apart, she no longer loves me, we are just friends and she would not recipicate sexually because she feels she can’t… we had no sex for months. I convinced her at first that it was worth trying to fix things... She became very distant and went out often with friends.

I asked if there was someone else and she said no.

The confusing thing is one day when she called for her daily yelling at me I said ok enough lets end it… and she was the one that said no lets try to fix things and she agreed to see a therapist.

I now think she is stating with me for the kids but I don’t have confidence that will last and why should I want that.

She started talking about how divorce is not the end of life (total change from how she used to think) she always said this stuff when referring to her sister.

December – she told me she was going out with a friend, after she left the house 2 minutes later the friend called and asked for my wife so I said she is on you way to see you, heather said “we have no plans” I freaked. I read her emails - I know I know that I should not have done that but I was out of my head. A few days before this a guy (old work friend) sent her a gift cert to victoria secret and all of their email had sexual flirtations (I guess it is still possible that it was just flirtations but...

To end this long story I once again asked her if there was someone else. She said no. I mentioned the guys name. And she again said no and she had not seen this guy in months. She did say I love you to me and that she and her therapist are trying to work through her issues (depression and so on).

The only problem is that I know it was a lie when she said she has not seen the guy in months. According to her emails she saw him many times in Dec. in the first week of Jan she said to him "I had a very good time with you too the other night (might have been the night she said she was going out with a friend) and the email finished with "I slept well too as I bet you expected! xxoo"

Am I putting too much circumstancial evidence together.
Am I nuts
If anyone takes time to read this rant please let me know what you would do...
PS I am considering asking her to goto a professional counselor and I am actively search for one.

a newbie Calvindjs

I would go with your feling on this one. Sounds like she is having an A. The VS gift certficate and the email certainly seems to point in that direction as well as her lying about going out with a friend. Don't feel bad about snooping in her emails. You have to do this. When I confronted my wife about the OM she said they were just friends and the night I had her followed and the two met up at their workplace she told me they "thought" about an affair but both backed out. I knew this to be a lie. Gut feelings usually don't lie. Mine did'nt. We as spuses know when something isn't right and in your situation, something isn't. Try and investigate more. It is hard to accuse when you don't have enough evidience. My wife became distant as well, meet with the girls after work for drinks, wanted to seperate and was confused about what she wanted. It hurts I know believe me. You have to step back though and be patient and gather as much as you can. Cell phone records, emails, etc. Maybe have her followed. You will go nuts with this but it will be okay. I feel for you.

Calvindjs:

Ditto the previous email. Trust your gut - it sounds like she's already at least having an EA with plans to take it to the next level.

The email intercepts may already be enough evidence, but take the warning seriously. Your WW will probably lie to you if you confront her without proof. The downside is that by revealing your information, you may lose the ability to track the affair. It's a tough balancing act.

3XL

I agree with Darren, go with your gut feeling don't betray yourself or let her make you think otherwise. You will hate yourself for it. My wife did the same thing to me, she denied she was having an affair, in Sept- thru Dec. with her manager. I suspected something all along, but I went online to access her cell phone account and saw 100's of calls back and forth with the other guy. She went as far as to introduce me to him and become friends. She came clean and told me everything 1 week before xmass, she felt too guilty all along. I threw her out for 3-4 days and she came back determined to work at the marriage, and confessed she never loved the OM and only me, so now we are therapy and talk everynight. We are even writing a letter to the OM to tell him its over and kep away, and will forward this to his parents as well.
However, if your wife is in therapy with you and still seeing the OM, that says she is not committed to working things out.

I think so, too! Now...what direction do you think you want to go? Want to try and save the marriage or do you think you want a divorce?

Calvindjs --

You are welcome here at MB. I'm sorry for this pain and instability in your life. You are not nuts! Not at all! You are right to question and doubt when you feel that things aren't right. Trust your "gut" here.

Things don't sound very good from your descriptions. On this board, what you paint for us shows up in very vivid colors. Our first reaction is to confirm what you're feeling about your W. I wish that your "circumstantial evidence" pointed in some other direction, that it had other explanation, but you wouldn't be here on this board if you didn't suspect the same thing.

Every paragraph in your post reinforces this analysis. We've seen it all before, far too often. The WS (wayward spouse) follows a pattern and a script, ones which are pathetically predictable.

BTW, reading her emails is NOT considered bad form; it's a means of learning truths which you won't get from your W. It's called research. Please read WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses right here on this Just Found Out forum. It's all there along with what to anticipate and you can do to protect yourself. Also read as much as you can on this board, particularly the articles about affairs; they're wonderfully helpful and clarifying.

If this is true and your W is in fact involved in an A, this will be a terribly difficult and stressful road for both of you and for your relationship. You will not travel it alone however; we will walk you through it and be there for you. Know that your marriage is not a lost cause, that there is hope for a recovery, and that you, individually and together, can survive this trauma.

Can you give us some background: Your ages? Children's ages? How long married? You've noticed her distance since the summer. When did she start with her therapist? Tell us about her depression?

"I am considering asking her to go to a professional counselor" -- isn't she doing that now with her therapist? "I am actively search for one" -- Yes! Do this for yourself. You will need some professional direction and guidance. Try the Harleys right here on this website--they're amazing!

You need to hang in there, keep focused on your gut instincts, gather more evidence, and remember that this is fixable (even when it may seem hopeless). We're here for you...

Ammon

Unless she is wearng the VS stuff for you, the probabilities are way over 99% that she is having a physical affair. Even if it is not a physical affir, she is in an emotional affair, which is almost as bad. (see Emotional infidelity)In some ways it is worse, because she can deny it is an affair and refuse to do anything about it, because, "we're just friends" - (excuse me while I hurl). In either case, you can save your marriage, if you can get her to participate, so:

1.) Learn. Read everything in the Basic Concepts section of this site. Next, read all the Q&A's on infidelity on this site. They are found at How to Survive Infidelity Then buy and read “Surviving an Affair”, by Willard Harley, (hereinafter referred to as “SAA”) available at the Bookstore. SAA is THE best book on the market for helping one get to the root of “the message of the affair” (BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE QUESTIONAIRES!). It (along with the Basic Concepts section of this site) is also helpful for giving you a vision of what a great marriage should look like. The approach of SAA to this problem is that the best defense against affairs is to have a great marriage. My wife said we had a good marriage, but she still had an affair. She was kidding herself, but it was not until we read SAA and saw what a great marriage should look like that we could clearly identify the problem areas and had the tools necessary to fix them.

The phrase “the message of the affair” is from the book “Torn Asunder”, by Carder (hereinafter referred to as “TA”). I personally think this is the best book on affair recovery we have read. In particular it deals with the two different paths the recovery of the betrayed spouse (BS) and the wayward spouse (WS) need to take, and deals w/ remorse in a way that I prefer to SAA. Read it together, if your spouse is willing. If not, go through it yourself. If you or your spouse has issues with control, you might also want to read “The State of Affairs”, (SOA) by Todd Mulliken, which also treats the remorse issue similarly to TA. SOA also deals with "the vision thing" for marriage, which is neglected in SAA.

2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC’s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don’t cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC’s in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that.

You are on an emotional rollercoaster right now, and there will be times that you will think it would be best to just divorce your spouse and go on with your life. Though there are no guarantees, recovery IS possible, but it takes time and effort. You will hate yourself if you don't do everything you can to make that happen. Give yourself the time you need.

3.) I understand that you may not be a person of faith, but for me, getting my spiritual life in order was crucial. As I said, this is hard. I knew I would need all the help I could get. Repenting of the habitual sins in my life let me stop pushing God away so I could hold on for dear life. I had to humble myself and ask Him what I had done wrong, and what I could do to be the husband He wanted me to be for his child, my wife. This was not about blaming myself. It was about doing what I could to do my part in having a great marriage. My wife could participate or not, but I had to know I had done everything I could do. It also helped me to let go of thinking about what SHE needed to do, since I couldn't control her, anyway.

You might also want to read through: WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses, but keep in mind that these are the writings of amateurs. Get the books, read the articles, and see a GOOD counselor - you need the best help you can get.

<small>[ January 16, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. Yesterday before I read your responses my wife asked if I am uncomfortable with her still seeing her friend (she thinks I believed her when she said no A). I said dont see him for a while cause it will freak me out but its ok to talk to him. I think though I spooked her enough that she does not say anything in email to him now. She has not replied to his emails for 3 days now but they have talked. I just got the guys latest email this morn and he asked WS to meet for an hour sometime during the day so she must have told him something on the phone. We had a long talk in the car yesterday and part of it was her saying her therapist says you should do everything possible to save a marridge when you have kids (we have 2 - 3 and 5). I think she is serious about saving the marridge but I want her to come clean about this affair (even if it was not physical which I doubt).

How can I go through life always wondering - and I have to wonder as she of course has not been honest.

I do love her still.

In the event that she does reply to the email instead of calling this guy and they agree to meet should I show up too? Or should I let this meeting go as it is most likely her telling him it is off or she it telling him it is off for a while. I dont think I would catch them doing anything.

Also, is it time to tell her that I know she is lying and tell her I read her email (cuase that is the only proof I got).... if i do that of course she will change her email password and I will no longer have access.

Once again thanks for the advice

PS any women out there in VA want to have a revenge affair... just kiddin - sort of

Update - she did not reply to the guys email today so I have no shot at catching them. I assume she will call him but there was snow here today and the kids school was canceled so It will be very hard for them to meet. I wish I could find a way to know what is going on.

Sounds like she is still in an affair with this guy. You may have two options:

1. They need to end the afair on there own. Guilt and shame will over come your spouse, you really can't hide this forever

2. YOU need to realize that you need to confront her on it and make a decision which is best for your emotional state. And by no means, don't seek revenge against either of them with you having an affair or other wise. It is counter productive.

I know my wife is not too comouter literate to understand email and intenet, if I knew she was talking to this guy via email, I would throw out the computer yesterday no matter what.
I did this with her cell phone, basically I changes the number and its mine now! I all so did this with the house phone and I installed caller ID as well. So how us men become so obsessed with this. Basically I know its wrong, but I have my wife under a microscope, she can't do much with out me know, even driving her car, I look at the miles, because I can't trust her right now, and if I see one more F*%# up, out she goes.

C,
i'm so sorry for you. the situation that you find yourself in is so unfair. yet, sitting back and hoping for the best will not, i'm afraid, make things better.

if you want to know for sure...no change that to...if you NEED to know for sure...then here's a couple of things that you can do that won't brake your bank account.

1. spy software, get it for your computer. that way she can change all her e-mail accounts all she wants and you will still see everything.

2. install a telephone answering device. you can get them at radio shack inexpensively and then you'll know for sure what she and her FRIEND have to say and when they will meet.

but in the end none of this matters...not unless you can make her feel loved and secure enough to tell you the truth on her own. being in therapy is great but if she continues to lie, not only to you but to your therapist, what can be accomplished?

in my experience, it's not what a person says that counts...it's what they do! and if she continues to have a relationship with the OM then recovery simply ain't gonna happen.

i respectfully suggest that when she asked you if her continued contact(of ANY type)with the OM was permissable you should have responded with a resounding NO! NO! NO!

and if she insisted on knowing why, well then your answer is as simple as saying "because it make me feel bad and makes me feel insecure and if our positions were reversed and you asked this of me then i would gladly give this to you so you would have the peace you need in your life and i would gladly give it to as my gift of love."

coach

You are NOT nuts! See if any of her ACTIONS fit...

50 Indicators of Infidelity.
1. A sudden upturn in their demeanor or outlook on life.
2. Constantly late.
3. More possessive toward wallet, pocket calendar or briefcase.
4. Comes home more often with alcohol on breath.
5. Starts talking about getting together with old friends they haven't seen in years.
6. Starts shopping for new clothes.
7. Starts taking a renewed interest in their appearance.
8. Starts keeping an overnight bag in their car or office, ostensibly for a workout or a game of tennis.
9. Orders dishes or new household items never ordered before.
10. Does not look at other women/men as much as they used to.
11. Starts working late and on holidays and weekends.
12. Express opinions on subjects that they never had an interest in.
13. Takes a new interest in anticipated schedule.
14. Encourages you to visit parents or friends alone.
15. They give you gifts that show a new level of taste or insight about the opposite sex.
16. Car is kept free of paraphernalia belonging to you or the kids.
17. Starts attending extended seminars or conventions.
18. Start using new words and phrases.
19. At odd hours they start remembering things they forgot to do at the office.
20. They suggest that you open up separate checking accounts.
21. Often forget to wear wedding ring.
22. Takes the dog for much longer walks.
23. Makes more phone calls late at night.
24. A marked change of attitude towards secretary, colleagues or friends.
25. Suddenly takes up new hobbies or friends that take them out of the house in the evenings and weekends.
26. They talk about a movie they've seen but you have not.
27. They insist on answering the phone.
28. They call out a different name in sleep.
29. Smell of a different soap from the brand at home and/or you smell freshly showered at 1.00am.
30. They care about how breath smells. New mints, gum, etc. found around house.
31. Uses pre-paid calling card/pager/cell phone for the first time ever.
32. Loses a lot of weight and seems proud of new body.
33. Saddest list item is: change in die-hard pro-life feelings on abortion.
34. Gut feeling. The biggest indicator of an affair is just feeling that it is so.
35. Juvenile behavior and music interests!!!
36. Uses more kid slang than the kids!!!!!
37. Knows all the new pop singers and has CD's.
38. When they lose stuff they accuses you of gettting into their "stuff"....
39. Uses the ATM way too much!
40. All of a sudden, their attitude about people who cheat changes, e.g., "we shouldn't judge because we don't know their whole story."
41."It wasn't a dinner date - it was just a way of saying thank you for carpooling"
42."I never lied about being married - she never asked me, so I just didn't bring it up"
43. Grocery shopping and other excuses to get out "alone."
44.The one difference is that my Wife wants our kids to like the other person because in the back of her head she thinks she will be with him. Very sickening. !!!!!!!!!!!
45. Carries toothpaste, toothbrush, mouthwash at all times.
46. When other person is co-worker, can't wait to get to work each day .
47. Becomes great friends with people going through divorce.
48. Defends other who are/have/will cheat(ed/ing).
49. Distances themselves from those with strong (any) moral values.
50. Gets "coded" pager messages at all times of the day and night

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yesterday before I read your responses my wife asked if I am uncomfortable with her still seeing her friend (she thinks I believed her when she said no A).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You might have replied to her with 'If our roles were reversed, would YOU be uncomfortable with me still seeing my friend?' She may not have answered you, but the question would almost certainly gotten stuck in her mind.

Calvin,

Something you said struck a chord with me. You said your wife doesn't want D bc of the kids. my W told me that she and OM danced around the subject of D. He told her that he never would bc of his kids and that it would be bad for our kids.

So here's the rub that I can't quite get over eventhough NC has been since 6/02.Is she still w/ me bc she loves me or bc OM made it clear that he wouldn't D his W. ??????? That doubt still haunts me. You'll need to deal w/ this issue as well.

I don't want a life where we have learned to live in peace. I (and you) deserve a W that loves them!!!!