How do you know? We might live with a conflict avoider, that is having an "out the door" A. Is there any way of knowing so maybe the BS can not put themselves through more than they have to in the first stages of healing? I was wondering what everyone thought...maybe there are some real telltale signs that it is an "out the door affair" and would be willing to share.

I'm not really one to answer this question...but figured I've give it a go while I was here.

My best quess is that with an "out the door affair", there isn't much damage control the WS is going to be interested in. They're not going to end the affair, they're not going to want to do any type of counseling, or changing their behavior patterns. They'll be impatient with the BS, will feel no empathy for the pain and suffering the BS is dealing with.

Rebuilding is HARD work...and if the WS really isn't interested in even attempting it...it's likely a mindset that was there even before the affair took place. They've left the marriage long before the affair, they've been "marking time" till they had a "reason" to leave...and a driver to carry them away to a "new life" where everything will be different.

The sad thing is...they are taking the major problem with them into this "new life"...themselves. JMHO

good post wifey,
I think you summed it up well. Do you think their is "fog" associated with it, I don't. But wanted to know what others felt about that.

I don't know how much help I can be except to say that the BS will eventually know if the WS is ever going to want to work on the M. When will that happen? How long will it take for the BS to know? Every situation is different and I don't think there is a magic answer circumstances are always different in every case.

My opinion, but I am just a BS going through my WW's out-the-door-affair.

STTSI

Still,
thanks for posting, I know how you feel, I am there too, but my WS has so much "fog" around him that he is a walking shell of the person I met and fell in love with. We have no contact as he had to move out, but he is having an A with a MOW, so I don't think that is going so great either, but either way it's not what we as BS have to work on, we need to heal and grow from our experiences because it's the one thing we OWE ourselves, no matter what the WSs do, that was there decisions to have the A no matter what was needing to be worked on. In my case, he didn't want to work on anything, and was always blaming someone for something, well you can only blame others for so long until it's just you staring back at you in the mirror. I hope he wakes up and I hope one day no matter what happens in our relationship, he could at least be amicable enough to apologize for all the people that are affected by Affairs. JMHO.

Here's a link explaining 'out the door affairs' it's titled Don't let the door hit you .

I hope it helps to answer your question.

I'm not for sure about this "fog" business. While I do accept that affairs have a lot of confusion in them for all parties...am not for sure if "fog" fits.

In "OTDA" the confusion may still exsist, but maybe not on the same level as say someone who is firmly planted on a fence. They may know they are not happy where they are, but are too confused and/or cowardly to actually make the changes that are needed in their lives for THEMSELVES without involving a third party.

As I said, I'm not very knowledgeable about these types of affair, as I have no personal information/experience in which to draw from.

Good Luck!

Neesha- Interesting post going at GQII (thats where I mostly play now).

I agree with you, the only thing we as BS can do is to work on ourselves, learn the lessons intended and become a better person from what we have been through. I have been following your story and am so sorry at what you are going through.

just a wifey- Call it whatever you want, fog, immaturity, selfishness it is all the same thing. Even though I am young, I feel that me longs for the party days of college and is acting very immature. She wants 5 kids a horse and never wants to work again for the rest of her life. The OM, a computer tech, is telling her that he can provide that for her. I have tried telling her that she is living in a fantasy world that he will never make that kind of money (neither will I) but that if she comes home we can find options that will get closer to her dream life. She doesn't want options, she wants it all and he promises he can provide it. To me that is either fog or stupidity. I know she is a smart woman so I am thinking fog.

All that said, I think my WW is having a OTDA becasue she doesn't want to have any contact with me at all and her family supports her A 100%. That is why I don't think she will be comming back to me. However I still keep my head upand keep working on myself to become a better man.

Neesha quote "he could at least be amicable enough to apologize for all the people that are affected by Affairs"

My WW apologized to me many times right after D-day, but still continued the A with the OM. I don't think she meant it or she would have tried to stop the A and work on our M. JMHO

STTSI

I am so sorry for having this same post at 3 different places but some posters just stay on certain ones, so please forgive me about that, as I am sure it is annoying. As I said on another post I am having a reflective moment and wanting to bounce off my thoughts to get them out of my head!!!!

I was just thinking that sometimes no matter what we "think" are issues of a relationship problem that if both do not want to identify and or hash through the "jungle of decay" it does not matter that the "A" took place other than to let the WS, justify themselves internally on the "death" they already felt the relationship with BS had suffered. But in fact it is within the individual (WS) that the death took place, not about the relationship issues, but about the individuals issues that they do not want to revive and heal for themselves. Does that make sense?

There are people who just will not look within themselves ever, their existence will be based on outside influences be it for bad, good, or indifferent. Then there are some that make it a lifelong study of working from within themselves. And of course, the ones that are catapaulted into delving deeper be it from physical, emotional, mental, or spiritual reasons. I think the wondering for us lies within the parameters of not being able to gauge sometimes what it would take for our mates to "delve into themselves",and not make it about outside interferences. Because ultimately any growth has to come from within, and the pain for some is realizing we fell in love with someone who has not grasped that concept yet. Does that make sense?

Neesha --

As usual, you make much sense, raise significant and necessary questions, put forward sound points, and look at things wisely, healthily, and very comprehensively.

Too many people appraise and evaluate themselves by external measurements. They never look inside to find the true wellspring of their happiness. Blaming others means never having to take responsibility for your own well-being.

One of the very few benefits of our pain is this subsequent necessity for reevaluation and introspection. We grow, almost without trying. A pity that the WS hasn't come to grips with any of this prior to the A, and may never do so afterwards. For us, ultimately beneficial change and growth. For them, continued darkness and blind flailing. One can only hope...

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. I'm very glad you're a part of this board.

Ammon

I have just been reading this thread and recognise some of my WH's behaviour. All along since D Day 1 I have been encouraged by the fact that he says he is not leaving,doesn't want to leave,still loves me,doesn't want to leave me and the girls.
But....despite a good Plan A on my part the A having probably stalled for a few weeks, gained momentum again. I found out again, he agin said he would end it. Now,2 weeks ago, D Day 3.
I am feeling incredibly low and depressed having read this thread and TMCM's link to the artcle about OTDA's.
I have been so close to asking him to leave but decided to stick with it nd told him I won't do that. He sent a NC letter-having refused so far-and promised he would end it. I am now away from home as my Mother is dying and I recieved the call to go to her the day after D Day 3.
I am so frightened that this is an OTDA that I am choosing to ignore the signs of.
Maybe some of the things he has said that I attributed to the fog, are actually indicators of his ultimate wish for me to end the M.
How on earth does a BS make his/her way through it all. Needless to say he still refuses to go to counselling. Although he did refuse the NC letter for ages.

I am sorry Neesha if I have threadjacked this for my own vent-but it triggered off a lot of pain and distress.

Deluded

Devon,
Don't be sorry at all, it's why it's here, and I don't think your H would write a NC letter if he was through with his marriage do you? It just takes time to recover and get on the right track. If he was finished, there would be no negotiations it would just be done. So please feel free to post and please look at what he is doing as positive. I do not know if you have made a plan for recovery, but there are so many wise and wonderful people going through it that they are surely to be a tremendous amount of wisdom and support for you.

Please let keep posting and letting us know how it's going....

It takes a strong individual to realize that they are not perfect and that true change needs to come from within. Too often people try to blame others for things instead of taking responsibility. It is only after taking responsibility that we can begin to change, if we choose to.

STTSI

Still,
Good point and one that is a common thread around here, the sadness again lies with that realizing that we love someone who may never take that repsonsibilty to do so, or at least not in the lifetime of our "relationship" with them. So we settle it in our hearts and head that at least maybe in the future they will take it upon themselves to do so, and we have to be happy about that and that we were some instrumental part in being that catayst for it to have occurred for them, even though they have gone on into another relationship. That is how I heal, thinking that maybe I will be able to witness that growth be it from afar; within them and feel comforted in the fact I helped in some way for that to transpire.

Neesha- I know what you mean. I have tried explaining to my WW my part in creating the atmosphere that made her A possible. She will take no responsibility for her part in the detoriation of our M or for the A. All I can do is become a better person and hope that some day after her and OM get married (we are not Dv yet, but I am expecting papers soon) she will understand what happened and maybe, just maybe she will apologize to me. I am not expecting that to happen though.

Here is an interesting quote I thought would fit here:
"In looking for the problems in any relationship we are in, we always do well to point the finger back at ourselves. At least as Jesus said, it is a good place to begin to look! There is no doubt that others cause some of the pain and failure of relationships in our lives. But the reality is that we are probably adding to the problem or if we are not, we probably could be doing some things better that would give us a better chance of working it out, even if you find yourself in a relationship with a "problem person." Sometimes, the most immature people can grow when in the presence of an integrating relationship. So, in looking at some of the dynamics of what the blocks are to good relationships, keep yourself in mind. The more that you can take ownership of these tendencies in yourself, the more likely you are to make relationships work and to pick people who are able to make them work as well. Mature people tend to pick mature people" Henry Cloud PhD

I thought this to be very fitting for our discussion. Here is the link to the entire article.

http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Articles/blocks.htm

I love to hear from you as always!
STTSI