OK, here goes. I have been reading the posts/reply from KatHurt and let me tell you, I feel your pain - literally. It has prompted me to tell you my story, like it or not.

OK, my H and I have been married 13 years and have 2 wonderful sons. It started when an ex (they were briefly engaged 16 yrs ago - she dumped him) started working at the same place my H does. I was concerned and told my H, but he said it was no big deal. It took a year and a half for it to become a big deal. She is div and, of course nothing to lose - started working him right away. I saw it, he denied. It got serious in early May 2002 and I found out a month later - from a non-deleted e-mail. I felt like I was going to have a heart attack! I couldn't stand, breath, speak - anything. I immediately confronted him, and after several attempts to deny it, he confessed. However, he said nothing had "happened" just that they had both professed their long lost love to each other and talked about how they might pick up where they left off and have a future together. He took the better part of the day to realize he couldn't leave his family and would break it off. He called her that night and told her he had made his decision to stay. According to him, she understood and would leave it at that. After several weeks of continued "sneak" phone calls, all of which I found out about (the man doesn't realize EVERY call he makes from his cell phone is listed on the bill) he finally agreed to stop. He insisted, however, that it wasn't any big deal, they had not done "anything" and that it was silly of me to insist he have ABSOLUTELY not contact with her again. He said he could handle it. They were "friends". NOT!!! I had to explain to him that "friends" did not try to break up marriages!

So, the summer went on, and we worked very hard to re-establish our marriage. With a little prodding, she was transferred to another office, though not far enough away for me. Everything started getting better, he was commiting, went to counseling (just a few times) and said it helped.

Well, late fall, things just didn't seem right to me. My gut was telling me to be careful. My gut was right on. I found out AGAIN, through an e-mail, that they were at it again! I was FURIOUS! I immediately sent HIM and e-mail that I knew, and left town. I did not make any further contact with him for about 10 hours. He did not know where I was, and could not get ahold of me. He only knew that I knew, and he didn't know what I would do. I didn't know what I wanted to do - only that I couldn't face him - I needed a breather.

I finally called him after he left several messages on my cell that got more desperate as time passed. He was scared. His first words were "I don't want a divorce - please come home" I was still very mad, hurt and sad. We talked many times that night - but I stayed away. I needed to be away.

When I finally came home the next day, he promised this time he would do whatever I wanted him to do. He would have no further contact with her. He was still trying to lie to me about what was going on, though. I confronted him with his lies and he told me they had exchanged X-mas gifts, though he lied about what they were - at first. When he finally told me the truth I insisted he return her gift to her through the mail, or I would do it for him. He said he would. He would not ask for his gift back, however. He insisted she would never return it.

Since then, he has been very good - focused on our family which he holds very precious. I have done what the website says (and have since summer) and been the best I can be for him. I know he e-mailed her one last time to say he was sorry, that he would be OK, but would not contact her for "a while", that she shouldn't feel bad, to hang in there, and that he would miss her. He does not know I saw this, and has denied ever contacting her.

As far as I know, he has not contacted her - but I can't be certain. I can't monitor his work phone. When I ask, he says he is doing good and is staying busy with work and staying focused on us. He, like so many others, does not like to discuss it - it is in the past and he wants to pretend it didn't happen - twice. I'm having a much harder time with it. I am on the wonderful roller-coaster from hell. I don't think he has returned the gift - but I cannot bring myself to ask. I know it will cause an argument, but I also know it must be done.

Right now, I am just so exhausted from doing everything to make him feel loved and wanted and appreciated that I could just die. I feel like I'm treading water with no lifeboat in sight.

Comments?

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

Hi GC2,

Welcome to MB!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now, I am just so exhausted from doing everything to make him feel loved and wanted and appreciated that I could just die. I feel like I'm treading water with no lifeboat in sight. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a "believer" in the MB principles but for me, the book Torn Asunder by Dave Carder was much better in helping me understand the feelings that I had and offered a different approach to dealing with them.

You mentioned that your H wants to leave everything in the past, doesn't want to discuss it, and wants YOU to act like it never happened. I think that most of us BS can relate.

If you continue to try and "meet his needs" while your needs continue to go unmet you will continue to feel like you're treading water with no life boat in sight. Find a good pro-marriage MC and see if your H will start going with you... If he won't, then go for YOURSELF . Get a copy of Torn Asunder and see if he'd be willing to read it with you. Until you let your H know how unhappy you are, he will gladly continue to "act as if nothing ever happened."

Wishing you both the best...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

yup...agree with RIF...you need to be with a good counselor. You're H is trying his best to hide his head in the sand and hope it all just goes away...ain't going to happen. It needs to be dealt with so that true healing can began.

As for the gift...ask! It's driving you nuts...if you don't ask when you've got your mind set on asking in a non-arguementive way, it's going to come out at some point in a very non-productive way. Just sit down calmly and quietly and ask him if he has returned it. (btw...where is it, if he hasn't returned it?)

Trying to discover if they are still in contact can drive all of us up a wall...as there is really no way short of living in their breast pocket that we can know for sure. As hard as it is to trust a WS...that's usually the first place we have to grit our teeth and try. The only thing I knew was that if my H did continue contact...I might not know when it began...but I would eventually discover it and make a decision at that point.

Like you, after d-day there was some phone contact which H lied his @$$ off about until I told him I was having the past cell phone records faxed to me...and finally backed into that corner...he admitted it. (Phone calls were make in July, and this happened in Sept....he lied about them for three months...silly man!)

This rebuilding of trust goes hand in hand with us feeling some security in our lives. It sucks! But, as the days go by and your H shows you and tells you just how much you do mean to him...it lessens and the trust is reclaimed.

You hang in there. This rollercoaster ride stops eventually...but it is one h&ll of a long ride...and it's not fun at all. This is one ticket I wish none of us had to take.

Good Luck!

Thank you RIF and Wifey - it is great to hear from someone who has been there and is trying like myself to rebuild.

I asked H last night about the non-returned gifts - I was calm and non-confrontational. He stated he had not returned them - and hadn't even thought about them. They are "no big deal". I said they were a big deal to me. He said he would return them if it meant that much to me (I said it did!) but he wasn't going to do it right away. BTW, they are at his place of work - a book and some type of game - he won't tell me specifics. I asked him if he had had any contact with her and he told me he had not (thank God!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . He said he was focusing on his work and his family. He said he knows what is important, and what he must do to keep his priorities straight. I know he does...but he said all that the FIRST TIME, TOO!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

He then sent me an e-mail today re-enforcing his commitment to us. He said he is focused in the right direction and did not see any "relapses" in the future. I told him I desperately needed his honesty - it is the lies that hurt the most! I also told him that he will just have to be patient with my questions until I feel better about the situation. I have been patient with him, now it is his turn. I think he understands. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But you are right, RIF, I really need to remind him that I have needs, too. He meets them when I do remind him, I just wish I didn't always have to do that.

A friend told me we needed to see the movie "Unfaithful" - has anyone seen it?

Thanks for the advice...

I'm hanging in there...

GC2

Hi GC2,

Good for you!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You let your H know that it was important to you that he return the gifts. I've found that communications is the key to rebuilding... If I don't clearly communicate my needs or feelings in a way that my W can UNDERSTAND, then I haven't really communicated with her. 9 times out of 10, when we have a bump, its because we just aren't taking the time to really communicate.

Thank your H and watch and see when he does give the gifts back. Don't nag him or keep asking him if he's given it back yet. Treat him with respect and act "as if" he fully intends to give the gifts back.

Hopefully, he will do it, then TELL you... When he follows through, it will help you to start trusting him a bit more.

Be patient. All of this takes time. You are doing a great job! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Just a little advice...if he hasn't had contact...returning the gifts is contact! Ask him to just bring them home...and together you will both put them in the trash. (If H is uncomfortable with you knowing exactly what he got, and you don't just HAVE to know, he can bring them home in a paper sack.)

I NEVER think there is a good reason for any contact of any kind once NC has begun. Even negative contact is contact....I wouldn't encourage it. jmho

Do NOT watch the movie! You'll find little enjoyment/entrainment from things dealing with fictionalized affairs. You're dealing with real life...and movies don't even come close. jmho

Great communication with H...keep it up. Be honest, be kind and be loving. If both of you stick to those three things...you'll do fine in the end.

Good Luck!

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: just a wifey 2002 ]</small>

As far as returning the gifts - he is NOT allowed to do it in person. I told him he could mail them back, or have another person return them. I thought about trashing them, but I also want the OW to know they have been returned and he no longer has them. Believe me, I DO NOT want ANY contact between the two of them! The mere thought of it turns my stomach. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Wifey, I was reading your post to KatHurt about the "falling in love" feelings and how we can no longer have those since we have already been down that road together. I feel that exactly. I know that a big draw for him to OW was that they had known each other only a year and were engaged (they were in their early 20's) when she dumped him cold. He has unrequited feelings for her, and they fed off that. They were having that getting to know you "fun" - only seeing the best of each other - talking about their days, not having to deal with the real life issues of marriage, family, bills, and such. It's a great fantasy world filled with "what if's" and "only if's" and all that s**t. He kept telling me that they had been friends for such a long time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> - I reminded him he knew her for a year a long time ago until recently - how is that a longtime friendship? They had NO contact until a year 1/2 ago. Here he and I are, 14 years later, having much water under the bridge, most of it very good, clean water. How could he think she knows him better? I was dumbfounded by that comment. Don't you just want them to see how completely STUPID they are being? Sometimes I really have to bite my tounge and not lash out. It's very difficult to see someone so intelligent act like a complete idiot. I step back and wonder "Why on earth do I love this idiot????" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> But, alas, I do and enough to go through this horrendous thing that he has done to try to make it better.

I know what is best for our family and I will do everything in my power to make it work.

But you know what? I REALLY miss that comfort - that comfort of knowing that he married me because he loves me, and that he loves only me. That comfort of not worrying where he is, who he sees, or who he talks to. Not having to try to pick apart his brain to try to understand if what he tells me is the truth or not. I look at our friends who are couples and though I know everyone has their problems, that they are secure in their relationship and HOW I MISS THAT SO MUCH!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

My hope is that someday I can get part of that back.

Thanks for listening... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi there. Sorry It has taken me a while but I have just found your posting. Well firstly, you have Just a wifey on your side, She is a "Wee Gem" as we would say in my county.

I have read all you postings and my heart goes out to you. Listen to all the advice. I know from my feelings that at times it all becomes too much and you just wish it would all go away but if you love him you have to try. (That's good coming from me yeh!!)

Today I feel exhausted too. We were at the gym and I just went up to him and said "I wany what you got from her but with you". He looked at me as if I had lost my mind. I am fed-up walking on egg shells all the time. Then I say to myself "Shut up or he might go". It is very tiring.

I want to feel special again and worry that he will never feel like that again. What we had before she came along was special. Everyone told me but now......well.

Take care love and keep the chin up. It is all we can do sometimes.

KatHurt

I do not know for sure if H has heard/seen her. Some days I think they are together laughing at me and some days I feel fine. It is hard.

Crazy,

I am sorry you have to be here but welcome. You have gotten some really good advise for everyone here and hopefully it will help you keep your head above water while your husbands is in the fog. It's great that he is showing so much committment to working on your M. Take heart in that and hold on to it.

Recovery is a really bumpy road so be prepared for them and don't let them de-rail you. As for the gifts I agree you should give him a chance to mail them back and show you he's really serious.

I read what you quoted from Justawifey about the affair giving back the feelings of falling in love and how we've been down that road so we don't have that anymore. I do agree that that is one thing that makes an A so intense but I think rebuilding from an A is like falling in love all over again. You get to see and feel alot of what was so special about this person, and why you you fell in love with them in the first place. It's like starting at the begining in some ways.

You will have so many different feelings and good days and bad days in the coming months. Just remember how much love you've shared and what a great family you have and that will get you thru.

Used <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

GoingCrazy2,
I just read your story and to be honest I'm not sure that I can give you any advise. I sure can relate though. I feel like you and I are on that roller coaster from hell together.
I don't know if you've read my story. If you do you'll understand what I'm going to say a little more.
As for me, my H also exchanged X-Mas gifts with the OW. She gave him a jacket which he said he would throw away or give away but never did. I have it and I'am going to do just that. He asked about it just yesterday. He asked what I did with it and I said "I'm taking care of it".
The OW went as far as to give our 6 year old daughter X-mas gifts as well. I can't really throw those away even though I should.
My H also said there would be no more contact between him and the OW but of course there was just a week later. I found out again like I always do and he said he messed up again. He now says he wants to be here with me and work things out. Like your H, he also doesn't want to talk about it and expects me to pretend that it never happened. He doesn't want me bringing it up but he doesn't realize what hell I've been going through since last month.
He still works with her. He just got his shift changed for some unknown reason and he'll now be working days. He'll be home by 10.00pm maybe 11.00pm. I know he can still see her if he wants to, but having him work overnight is hell because I lose so much sleep over it.
I was really glad when I found this site, there are so many people who care about our story. I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't found all of these great people.
Hang in there, please keep me posted. It's so hard, but I'm willing to do it because I love him so much. I'm sure you do too. Take care
Debbie

MY HEART GOES OUT TO YOU. I HAVE BEEN WHERE YOU ARE, HAVE BEEN. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A MISTAKE OR NOT BUT WHEN I WAS CONFRONTED WITH THE SITUATION OF MY FIANCEE AND HIS EX "RECONCILING" I CALLED HER! I KNEW INSTINCTIVELY HE WOULD LIE BECAUSE HE IS WHAT SOMEONE COINED, "A CAKE MAN" AND CAKE MEN DON'T BURN BRIDGES. SHE DID NOT LIE AND THAT GAVE ME THE KNOWLEDGE AND THE STRENGTH TO GO TO HIM AND TELL HIM I KNEW EVERYTHING, BACK TO SQUARE ONE FOR REAL, NOT JUST BASED ON WHAT HE WANTED ME TO KNOW. IT'S NO LIFE AT ALL DEALING WITH SOMEONE WHO IS ADDICTED TO THE THRILL OF ATTRACTION, AFTER ALL THAT'S WHAT IT IS. SOME JUST LIKE THE FEELING OF THRILL. I READ ABOUT THE RADICAL HONESTY AND EMAILED IT TO MY FIANCEE WE DISCUSSED IT AND NOT TO MY SURPRISE HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN IT, I DO. PEOPLE IN THE MIDST OF INFIDELITY WON'T BE HONEST, IT'S LIKE HAVING THE FLLU AND TRYING TO SAY I ONLY HAVE PART OF THE FLU. DISHONESTY GOES WITH THE AILMENT OF CHEATING.
I REALIZE ALSO THAT OUR SOCIETY LURES AND SUPPORTS LACK OF COMMITTMENT. MEN ARE PULLED AT CONSTANTLY BY THE ALLURE OF A NEWER AND FRESHER WOMAN, A YOUNGER AND PRETTIER WOMAN, OR A LESS STRESSFUL SITUATION, A NEW WOMAN WITH NO KIDS, BILLS OR MORNING BREATH. THESE BOARDS GIVE ME GOOD ADVICE AND HOPE, I PRAY YOU SURVIVE THIS BUT I HAVE THE GUT FEELING FROM EXPERIENCE THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO PURSUE HER UNTIL SHE DUMPS HIM ONCE AGAIN. SHE FEELS POWERFUL AND THAT'S HEADY.
WHEN PEOPLE FEEL POWERFUL THEY DON'T RELINGQUISH IT READILY, ONLY AN ACT OF GOD OR SOMETHING SEVERE STOPS THEM IN THEIR TRACKS. I KNOW IT SEEMS HE SHOULD HAVE THE STRENGTH TO STOP, BUT SHE IS NOT HELPING HIM. HE IS A MAN WITH A BROKEN LEG AND SHE IS THE PERSON WHO KEEPS KICKING AWAY THE CRUTCH. ONCE HE HEALS FROM WHATEVER IT IS THAT PULLS HIM TOWARD HER AND INFIDELITY IN GENERAL HE WILL CONTINUE TO TRIP.

Thank you all for your replies. Is it that misery loves company? Or just that it's nice to hear from others that are now, or have been in the same situation?

Crushinblo, I know what you are saying when you speak of her power over him. I have known this since she came back in the area. When I found out about the EA, I knew it would be her response that would make it difficult or easy. I hate that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I hate that someone else can have the power over how my life goes! The first time, I let him do it his way, and let it go on his own. When he couldn't do that, I sent her a message from me. I don't know that I have the power to face her in person (I have dreams of this, and it ends various ways, sometimes with me beating the living **** out of her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Anyway, I sent her an e-mail telling her in my own words why they needed to discontinue ANY type of relationship - it took me an hour to write it, but I didn't want to rant, rave or be mean (THAT was the hard part!!!). I had to appeal to any sense of morality she may posses, no matter how miniscule it may be. I didn't make it about me, but about our family, our children, and how, if she were in my shoes, she would not want someone doing this to her. I waited for a smug reply and got none. She did not even reply to my H, which I also thought she would do - but I also did not give her any fuel to use (cruelty or meanness towards her). I know this may not last forever, but I think with that, I took some of my power back.

Now I must wait. I hate that, too. I must wait to see when the next contact will be. I am building up all the reserves I have to be able to meet this head on. I am working diligently on my H to make sure he knows where I stand, and where we stand with each other. I find subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) ways to remind him of all he has now - all he could possible lose if he makes the wrong decisions. I also pray every day that I will have the strength to meet this challenge and to make it work.

Somedays, I wonder why I am going through all of this heartache - then I catch a glimpse of the man I married, the one I love, the father of my children and know that if we can survive this, it will all be worthwhile.

God give me strength!

Thanks again for listening to my ramblings... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

GC2