I am posting this in the “just found out” section, because I wasn’t sure where to post it. I have read a lot within MB over the past three years, but have never posted anything. The main thing that I was wondering is if the Marriage Builders weekend is worth going to? The outline looks like most of what is posted here on the site.

I started out just asking that question, but this post soon turned into a very long one describing my situation…sorry for the length, but I guess that I am reaching out. Because I don’t know what to do.

My wife is currently in an emotional affair as well as one time (a little over a year ago) actually meeting and having physical affair with him. She knows that I know about the EA part, but doesn’t know that I know about the PA. I have tried to get her to stop the relationship, I even told her that she had to choose between him and me, and all she said was “that it was not fair”.

She hasn’t admitted anything to me…she has no remorse, has never said sorry, and has never cried about it. I did confront her concerning e-mails written between them a couple of years ago, which she said that they would stop being sexual and be friends…but that was before the PA…and it is still going on.

OK…I think that I need to back up a little, and give all of the circumstances that has lead up to my wife’s and my current position.

My wife and I first saw each other 29 years ago, when she was in 6th grade and I was in 5th (separate schools, but I do remember seeing her at an event). Then two years later we went to the same Junior High. Our relationship, or I should say friendship started when we were both in High School. We were friends during this time. She did have a crush on me, but I wanted to be friends. We both had other relationships develop during this time, but she was my friend. I could tell her anything…talk to her about anything…she was my best friend. We often talked about my girl friends (after being married she has told me that it was hard for her to doing that) and discussed important stuff like…this girl doesn’t know that I wear glasses…You know all of the High School stuff. We also did a lot together as friends. We both went over to each other’s houses, played games with both families, etc. We also went out…they were dates, but not dates…we were friends. Yes, we did kiss, that complicated everything…but we were just friends. Her parents and she has said that thay compared others to me, and my parents did the same. When I would ask my parents what they thought of “so and so”, my date…they would respond that we like her, but we like “S” (my now wife), better. After High School, it did develop into a physical relationship and we did go out and do a lot more…but, we were still “just friends”. There was one point that “S” (my now wife) told me that I need to make a decision on what I wanted…to be “friends” or if it was more. She told me not to talk to her until I knew…about that same time I went over to her house (she lived with her family) and her sisters and mother answered the door, and said that I have to help them. That “S” is seeing a person that they do not like at all. It was then that I realized that I really did love her, and that I wanted more than “Just Friends”…We dated for a while (did pretty much the same things that we did as friends)…then I asked her to marry me. See I did marry my best friend, and I still love her greatly!! We got married after first seeing each other 13 years earlier, and really knowing each other, for 11 years. We now have been married for 17 years, so needless to say we have known each other for most of our lives. We have two children, girls ages 14, and almost 13.

This brings me to say what has happened during our marriage. My wife has been VERY faithful to me during our marriage, until about three years ago, when I had to tell her about three incidences that involved me. Now for that reason, she reached out to another. I feel that her affair is because of my actions. To this day, she hasn’t admitted having her affair, and has not express any feelings of being sorry,…no regrets, or tears. In fact her relationship with this other man is still going on. Let me explain…

First, I am not making any excuses for my actions, because I know that they were wrong, even if I was drunk. I am not using that as an excuse, but it is the common thread in all that has involved me.

I didn’t drink all of the time, or even would consider myself an alcoholic. I would only drink every now and then. But when I did drink, I did not stop at just one or two drinks. I drank to get drunk. I would get wasted!! I liked this feeling! So, if we went to a party, etc…I would drink. Now, not every time I drank did I do something inappropriate, but there were three incidences that did occur while I was drunk. This has been the thing that I think contributed my incidences...the drinking. I have since decided not to drink, and put myself into that situation. For I feel that if I was completely of sound mind, that these things would never have occurred. So, again I’m not blaming alcohol for my actions, for they were still mine, but I do realize that it played a roll.

First, this was about 10 years ago…My wife’s sister came to visit from back east. My wife didn’t want to go out with her sister, and me, but said that the two of us could go. We went to a billiards place and played pool…yes we drank, and like I said before I drank to get drunk. We played pool and had a good time; on the way home we held hands and then kissed. I pulled over to the side of the road and we both kissed more. It wasn’t as though I was kissing her, or that she was kissing me…it was mutual. We did stop kissing, because her sister said that it wasn’t right…then we proceeded home.

The second occurrence was about seven years ago…a coworker had a hot tub that they didn’t want. So I said that I would take it. I had to help uninstall it and bring it home. There were three of us guys and her, that helped uninstall it and load it on a trailer. Now, again we were drinking very heavenly, after the others went home and her boyfriend went to bed she kissed me…I did stop her, very shortly after she started kissing me…and told her that it wasn’t right…but, never the less we did kiss.

The third and main thing that broke everything open occurred on New Years Eve 2000. My wife’s sister and her husband were over to bring in the New Year. You guessed it…lots of drinking…I was plastered again. My wife was in the back (in the bathroom) and my sister-in-law was laying the couch, her husband and my kids were there playing Nintendo games on T.V…I don’t know what possessed me but, I touched her inappropriately. She didn’t say or do anything to prevent it.

The next day we were supposed to go to my wife’s parents for News Year, along with her sisters, and their families. That morning I got a call from her sister saying that she remembers what happened the night before. That she and her husband didn’t want to go to her parents and be with me. I told her to go…that we (me and my family wouldn’t go). That is when I went in and told my wife. I told her about everything…dropped the whole thing on her…all at once.
Now, I don’t think that I would have told her on my own, because I would never want to hurt her, and I cherish our marriage and family. I love my wife!!!!

The next six months were hell (actual the past 3 years) …I have gone through all of the emotions and feelings that one would expect. Also, my wife was going through a varied amount of emotions, feelings and questions. Since my wife is a very emotional person, and I didn’t want to hurt her further, and I didn’t want to relive the past…I kept telling her that it was in the past, there’s nothing that can be done except to learn from it, that we should live our lives the way we want it to be, the way that it should be…two people in love. She kept asking why…and all I know was the commonness of drinking. I decided not to drink, and since that time have only had one beer. I know what it does to me and how I don’t have complete mental control that I would normally have, when not drinking (again not using it as an excuse, but rather a realization).

About this same time she started spending more and more time on the computer…playing games and chatting with her sister and others. It was one way she could escape from it all, and relieve some stress. During this time she also started talking to an old friend from her childhood, he use to live next door to her, and up to this point the only way that there was any communication between his family and ours was an annual Christmas card. I should also mention that he and her family, her parents in particular have kept in contact and remain friends to this day.

It had all of the typical signs that something was up…she would stay at work, on the computer e-mailing and IMing him. When at home, she would quickly close out the screen or IM, when I entered the room. I decided to start looking at her e-mails (whether that was right or wrong, I was paranoid and she was denying that anything was up). I watched e-mails go back and forth, talking about very specific things that they wanted to do to each other. No matter what I did or what I said to her, she denied everything…even though I knew better. I really wanted for her to tell me…for her to realize that it was putting our marriage in jeopardy…for her to be sorry for what she was doing. I mentioned that two wrongs don’t make a right, and that we both can learn from my past. She told me to “back off” and “to let her make her own mistakes”.

All I wanted was for her to stop talking to him. She really didn’t have to admit anything, as long as it stopped. But it didn’t happen…the e-mails kept going back and forth, getting more and more sexual…in the shower, etc. She even didn’t want to come to bed on our anniversary, because she was chatting with him (she didn’t say she was chatting with him, but I saw…and knew)!

Because of the detail in what I was reading, it made me not want to do any of those things with/to her, because I felt that if I did, she would be thinking of him, instead of me. I kept asking about him and what they were talking about, but she denied it all. Finally, I could talk it no more…I called her and told her that we had to talk.

I showed her copies of the e-mails. Instead of being sorry, she became defensive…she got mad at me for looking at her e-mail. Then went on to say that “they were just words”. That she has pictures running through her mind, of me kissing the person from my work. She keeps saying that what I did was so much more wrong, than what she did, because there was contact...and that he is “a friend”, which was there for her when she needed to talk to someone. She had/has no remorse!!

I did e-mail the OM, and expressed how much I loved my wife…and to think about what is happening…I asked him if he would have liked it if when he was married (he divorced a couple of years prior…which he took pretty hard), if someone was saying the things he was saying, to his ex-wife, if he would have liked it. He did e-mail my wife and told her that he did not like getting an e-mail from me. My wife replied that they had to be more careful…He told her how to clear out and delete old e-mail.

Now, maybe I shouldn’t have looked at her e-mail, but I didn’t know what else to do. She promised me that the sexual content would stop…but it didn’t! We live about an hour and a half away from him, so meeting is not super easy. But, she does work (1 time a month) just a couple of miles from his house. When she works, we all (my wife, my two daughter and myself) all drive her to work, then my daughters and I go to my parents house, about a half hour away. Then at the end of the day, come back to pick her up, and go home.

As time went on they wanted to meet for lunch when she would work near him. It was all that I could do to express to her that I did not like it, and that I did not want them to have lunch together. She said, “I’m a big girl, I can make my own decisions”.

Now about a year and a half passed by…when they finally had both agreed to lunch (this was one week before my birthday)…the e-mails/IM’s talked about their plans…him picking her up in front, because I always dropped her off and picked her up at the side entrance. They talked about finding “a parking place” where they could be alone, but decided that going back to his house, was safer. A few days before she was to work we went to Wal Mart, where she bought a new bra and underwear. The day that I took her to work, she spent almost the whole hour and a half putting on make-up and getting ready, which she normally only spends about 20 mins doing. It was so hard for me to take her to work that day…When I picked her up all I could do was ask her “how was lunch”? Which she replied “good”. Like I said, we (my children and myself) visit my parents when we are down there. Prior to my wife working the weekend, we arraigned to have dinner with my parents, for their birthdays. So, my wife knew that I would not surprise her, during lunch. That night, it was very hard for me to keep it together at dinner, knowing that my wife and the OM were together for lunch. But I did, because my wife didn’t know that I knew.

The next week of communications between my wife and the OM had them discussing how much they enjoyed each other. I found out all the details of their “secret Ronda view”. Yes, it was very tough to read, but I did find out that they didn’t “go all the way” only because she said no to that, but they did get naked and do other things with each other (yes, I have read all of the details).

About a week after I walked in and saw one of their IM’s before she closed it out.. He was talking about how he wanted to feel her breasts again…When I confronted my wife, she said that I didn’t see what I saw…

The late nights at work continued…and at home as well…I could be in the other room, and they would be there “talking” about everything. I would ask if she was talking to him, and she would say no. But when I looked at logs etc, it showed all.

Another time that she was suppose to work, she was to call him and let him know if she was called off or not, I found his telephone number in her jacket…She said that it was from a long time ago…yea, right!!! I know better!!!!

Another event that really hurt was about a month after the PA event. They talked about sending Christmas cards. He said that he would include a picture of himself, for her to have and requested that she send one so that “he could fantasize about her and _____ with”. She told him that the only picture that she had of herself was one taken with her and myself together. She told him that he could cut me out from the picture, that way it would only be her. I did intercept the card, and sure enough there was a picture of us in there, and one of our children. I managed to convince her that I didn’t want him to have a picture of her, and we only sent the one of our kids.

Now you might think that my wife doesn’t love me, but it is not true…I can tell that she loves me greatly and I wish that her love for me would allow her to stop this relationship and love me fully. We’ve had many talks together…we’ve read books, I’ve printed off a lot of the information on affairs, love bank, honesty, etc. But nothing has worked. I know that my wife must be feeling very guilty, but yet she continues to talk to him and still wants to get together for lunch with him.

About a month ago, I walked in when she was IMing with him, I was able to get to the computer, before she closed it out…I told her to not close it out and don’t say that I was there, I just stood there and sure enough, he started talking about her breasts…then after a bit, he had to go. I looked at her, and she could just smile, and say that he was just kidding around… The next day she wrote him a letter, saying that I saw what he was writing and that instead of me writing him another letter that she was…it did kind of blast him for what he said…but I feel that she did this for my benefit, because she told me about it and showed it to me. He did write back saying that he did not want to get caught again. The conversations did go back (for the most part) to non- sexual nature…but over time has elevated and is now back to a sexual nature.

It’s now been a year and four months since they went to his house (physical affair) and 3 years of emotional/internet affair. Whenever I try to talk to her about her situation it ALWAYS comes back to what I have done is worse than what she has done…It always turns out that we are discussing me, and what I had done…that what I did was by far worse than what she did, because hers were “only words” in e-mails (remember she doesn’t know that I know she went to his house). I have tried to get her to understand that I have no problem discussing me and what happened, and that I have no problem looking at the reasons behind it, which I believe drinking has had a major roll in. But, that the two situations, hers, and mine need to be kept separate. That if we are discussing my situation…keeps it to mine, and if we are discussing her situation…keep it to hers. But, that NEVER happens…she always takes the attention away from her and brings it back to what I did.

As of just a couple of days ago, he is still wanting to “make love” with her, and they are still continue communication with each other. He still tells her how he would make love to her and she tells him about what it is that she likes.

To this day, she is still denying everything to me, denying that anything has happened or is happening, even if I know differently!!!

I do believe that my wife still loves me, and that change is not going to happen over night. I feel that I cannot force her to be sorry for what has occurred, but rather it has to be on her own. I also feel that my incidences are in the past, but she wants to hang onto the OM. Bottom line is that I cannot force the issue…I cannot control her…It has to be her decision…her decision to love me, completely!

I also, want to not disturb the long term relationship between my wife’s parents and the OM, for I don’t think that will do my marriage any good…I just want my wife to not have contact with him.

So now, back to my original question…would this weekend be of help to my relationship?

Sincerely,
Someone who is hurting

<small>[ February 12, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Wife stll denying... ]</small>

I've never been to one of these weekends...but I sure think it or another one like it could help. If there is one in your area...my advice is to go with your W and see if you can get her to face what she has done. She's lying to you...but I've got a feeling she's lying to herself as well.

Going on the offensive when you're in the wrong is a well known tactic...and you're W seems to have it down pat. Yes, you did give her the "ammo" by your past actions, but that still does not take away any of the responsiblity she has for her choices.

Just as she didn't make your choices...you have not made hers. Until she is ready to admit that she too is wrong...don't know that you're going to get very far. jmho

Good Luck!

btw...did the two of you seek out MC when you confessed your misdeeds? Or did you think the two of you would just "move on" without some outside help? Personally, I would think that your W would have a very difficult time with the fact that you not only betrayed her, but that you betrayed her with her sister. That's a hard one to take.

BUT...YOU are NOT to blame for her choice in her betrayal.

WSD please read the following:

"When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the lover, it's time for Plan B."
...Willard F. Harley Jr. PhD.

I hope this helps.

Again Coffeeman is correct.
"no consequences to her actions equal no motivation to change." I agree that plan B is in order. She has in not so many words told you that she will continue her emotional affair and sometimes physical affiar whether you like it or not. This not what a married spouse should be doing. Clearly she feels that since you were drunk and kissed other females then she has been given a green light to have an emotional affair and sexual affair with this other man. The Harleys believe that everyone should know and bring the affair to light so it can exposed. Do you really wish to be married to someone who loves and craves someone else. You need to plan B so she will learn there are consequences to her actions.
Tell her that her actions are not acceptable for a marriage and you will not accept this behavior if she wishes to stay married. There is no reason to change her behavior if you enable her to continue with this behavior without repercussions.
What kind of message is this for your children?

Two bits of advice

1.
I believe and don't believe in plan B. I think the WS needs to be alone and think about their actions. However where I disagree is the basic saying out of sight out of mind.
2. If you decide against plan B then, either I would make it harder if not impossible to communicate via computer. Get ride of the computer or sabotage the modem card or another piece of the computer. All so if she has a cell phone get the log.

Ohhh yaaa.... I heard the same from my wife's about her affair as well, "he's just a friend.. I'm not having an affair!!, how dare you ask me are you saying I am a tramp?!?! Errr.well YA!

BOTTOM LINE!!! I TOO LOVE MY WIFE, BUT DON'T TRUST THEM ESP. NOW!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CoffeeMan:
<strong>WSD please read the following:

"When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the lover, it's time for Plan B."
...Willard F. Harley Jr. PhD.

I hope this helps.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi WSD.... as you can see that's my sig line TMCM is quoting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

YES, by all means go to the weekend. Go alone if your wife won't go with you. What you read here is NOT EVEN CLOSE to what you will get from hearing Harley in person.

(I've been to one weekend for couples and then the coach training equivalent to that weekend for professionals)

The man is brilliant. His advice is worth all the millions of words posted at this forum. In addition to the actual weekend, there is a 24 week (minimum) follow up plan. It walks you step by step through the overwhelming amount of REAL MB info you will get over those couple of days.

When you get back from the weekend you can request me as a mentor to help you with the follow up. If the new page isn't posted here at MB by that time, email me at help@saveyourmarriagecentral.com and mention that you went to the weekend and that you are looking for a mentor.

In addition, Harley's stuff is always a work in progress, he takes couples' feedback into account and adjusts his work to fit. At the weekend you'll get the latest and greatest. AND you should have a chance to ask questions of him.

Let me know if I can help with anything else.

Cerri

<small>[ February 10, 2003, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

First of all, you have nothing to lose by attending the MB weekend. I have not been to one. It's possible that you may not hear anything new if you've completely absorbed the stuff on this site, but I suspect it would be beneficial to ANYONE - even old time MBers if only for the personal interaction.

Secondly, I disagree with the posters above who recommended Plan B. This is not an option without a separation - and I highly recommend you not separate yourself from your family. That said, if your wife were to leave, I'd recommend Plan B almost immediately.

So what to do?

If your wife agrees to go to the MB weekend, DO IT!! Go alone if you have to. Then consider individual counseling for yourself with one of the MB counselors. They're the experts. One of the first things they'll ask you is if you've completed the EN questionaires - both you and your wife - so you ought to do this right now. Ask you wife if she'll do the same and then compare. Even if she won't participate, fill one out as you think she might do it. Ask her verbally what are the important needs are she would like you to fill and what would she have you do differently to better fill ALL her needs. What the goal here is is to find out what things you need to improve upon. Along with unmet needs, you need to identify other bad stuff you bring/brought to the marriage in the form of love busters. You've already identified your alcohol problem and how to fix it, right?

But one thing is very clear. You have to do something different than what you've been doing for the past couple of years since this thing can go on indefinitely unless it gets uncomfortable for the infidels. You gotta knock this thing off top dead center.

Here's my recommendation. Ready? You wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also, want to not disturb the long term relationship between my wife’s parents and the OM, for I don’t think that will do my marriage any good…I just want my wife to not have contact with him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Disturb it.

You're afraid you'll not "do my marriage any good"? Buddy, how good is it right now? Are you happy the way it is? If yes, don't do anything. If no, do SOMETHING. The best thing you can do it expose it to the light of day.

Granted, this may appear to contradict conventional wisdom that the BS cannot do anything to separate the affairees and trying to will do more harm than good. But your case is already long term and the infidels have not been faced with explaining what they're doing to anyone but you. You have to reveal this thing to the light of day and let OTHERS cast a disdainful eye on it. The only risk is that others won't believe you.

So, if your in-laws wouldn't approve, please consider spilling the beans. Yes, this will be dicey. In many cases the in-laws go into denial themselves and your wife will certainly deny the story to them even if they choose to confront her. But would they confront OM? What is your relationship with the in-laws? If YOUR family was close to them in your long history, is it reasonable to consider that they would talk to your in-laws?

Somehow you HAVE to get this thing out in the open. In effect, you've helped your wife an OM keep their dirty little secret.

Finally, your wife is playing the role perfectly. Classic responses to your questions. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I even told her that she had to choose between him and me, and all she said was “that it was not fair”. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you say "hypocrisy"? The higher the degree of hypocrisy, the thicker the fog.

Please think about the best way to "out" this thing and let us know your options.

WAT

Thanks everyone for the encouragement to attend the MB weekend…I think that we will try and go!!

Just a Wifey 2002…You are right in quite a few matters…first I to believe that she (my W) is not only lying to me, but also lying to herself…As a child she was burned in a fire, one of the ways that her parents (mainly mother) taught her to deal with the pain was to say that it was not really there…to try and dismiss it, deny it. I have seen this throughout her life…her way to deal with things, and I think that she is also applying it here. Yes, he is a friend…Yes, they can talk…Yes, it’s a release…Yes, it may help with the pain (that I caused)…I really think that she believes that he is helping her, that he is a friend that is there for her...at least that is how it started.

Again, let me say that I think that she really does love me deeply, and I don’t think that she really wants anything to happen to our marriage. But on the other hand, she has also said that if something was to happen to me, that there is a chance that she could be with the OM.

She IS SCARED…she devoted her life to me, and this is what she got (me doing what I did). She is AFRAID that something can happen again, and is trying to protect herself…
That is why Plan B is not something that I have considered. The past three years has been a lot of trying to talk to her, even if it hurt. It has been a lot of reassuring her that I REALLY do love her, and that I am not going anywhere.

Just a Wifey 2002…You are right, it has been tough for her to deal with the fact that my situation occurred with her sister, and rightfully so. I know that that it also has been tough for me too, but I bet it has to be even tougher for her. That is something that she has thrown back at me several times (I’ll explain in a bit). She is very close to her sister, and now even watches her daughter a couple days a week (Her sister now lives a few miles from us). It has been very tough for me to attend family functions, or go over to her house, as I always feel very uncomfortable…not because they make me feel that way, but because I feel bad for what has happened. To tell you the truth, it would be a lot easier for me if it wasn’t her sister, and it was someone that I didn’t have to see. But, because we are a close family, I can’t avoid it.

I do appreciate everyone’s advice and posts regarding my situation, but I have to agree with worthatry concerning PLAN B. I do have to say that I really do not think that Plan B would be the answer for me. During our 17 years of marriage, I have only been away from my W a couple of times on business trips. Other than that we have NEVER been apart…even when she gave birth, I slept in the hospital room with her. I feel that we DO have a very strong relationship to build on, but it need to be built from here and now and taken into the future. Not to tare it apart, so that it can be built up again. I also do not want to traumatize my children and create additional fears concerning our family.

A few of you have asked if we have ever had counseling, we have not...I have looked into it and have even discussed it with my wife (which she was not against). But, mainly due to financial reasons we decided to not…at least at that particular time. I know that I shouldn’t let the cost factor play a roll in the decision, because the benefit of a good marriage by far outweighs the costs. We did read “How to Survive an Affair” together about two years ago, but I don’t know that she really absorbed everything, or wanted to at the time (again…deny, and put it out of mind).

Like I said at the beginning of this post, I will be trying to attend the MB weekend. My wife and I will be going together (as we do with most things in our life).

Thanks everyone!!!!!

PS worthatry…At this time I am not going to “disturb it” by breaking everything “wide open”. Yes, I am a bit afraid, and you’re right about asking “how good is my marriage, right now?”…I have survived (waited) this long, and feel that maybe the MB weekend with the follow up lessons may make her realize what “needs to be done” on her own (or at least with a little help from the weekend). If after that time, nothing is different, I would probably opt for counseling. Between these two things…and time…I would hope that the situations would have changed. If it didn’t change, at that time, I would consider Plan B.

Again, Thanks All

Good Luck on your counseling weekend.

Sad to say, your past decision not to seek out counseling may have lead to many issues never being healed. Sounds as if you're not willing to make that same mistake this time around. Good for you!

It also seems that from your W's upbringing, that she is a conflict avoider, one who pushes everything down. While this indeed can work in many situations which are not a true crisis, when faced with a crisis of a betrayal, it will not work. Those emotions are going to come out in one way or the other. Often they lead to self-abuse or acting in ways that are self destructive. (Your W, I fear)

I am pleased that you seem to feel as if your W will agree to go to this weekend without a lot of pressure. This means that there is a very good chance that she also feels the need to work on the marriage. You say that you do not feel that she loves you any less, even if her actions are damaging the marriage. GREAT. From your side, it seems that you do love her very much. You've got a great beginning.

A lot of work awaits you both, but together you can overcome the betrayals which you both have done to the other and to the marriage.

Again...Good Luck! Keep us posted! I'd love to know what you learn during your weekend!

WSD,

AT the risk of getting everyone on my back, I must say this. What you did with those women was inappropriate and shouldn't have happened, BUT in no case were they affairs. There was no emotional attachment, and frankly there was no sexual attachment. So you didn't drive your W to this, she made these decisions all by herself.

You stopped drinking and given what you have stated that is very very wise on your part.

I would strongly recommend you go read Hopeful_Persons posts on the GQ section. Why? you will see a bit of your W. She doesn't believe that you will leave, and therefore doesn't believe there are any consequences for her behavior. She has committed adultery, emotionally and physically.

You have NOT done a very good job of handling this other than to tacitly say: "Oh go ahead, I deserve this." YOU DO NOT DESERVE THIS. Neither do your children deserve to lose there family over this, but that is what should happen if she doesn't change her behavior. Keep all of your evidence, you will need it.

You would do well to go to the MB weekend. Listen a to Cerri and consider her as you mentor, but you must take some actions. This weekend should be the start, but I suspect there will be more.

You need to step back and really evaluate what is going on. She is doing this because she wants to and values OM more than you and the marriage. She has not taken any corrective actions in 3 years. Time for action WSD. STart with the weekend.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL for your post…It is ironic that you said what you did in your first paragraph…concerning that my “actions were inappropriate, BUT were not affairs”.

I have been dealing with my own emotions and guilt, for what has occurred for many years, trying to evaluate what had happened, and discover why. The only connection that I was able to make was that binge drinking played a roll. But even so, I knew that it was still me, and did not know “why”. I didn’t want to blame the alcohol, because I felt that was a cop-out excuse. But it was the only connection that I could make. That is why I stopped drinking completely.

From my W’s standpoint she feels as though not only did it happen once, but “three times”, and that I should have felt guilty enough and want to change and make a difference after the first. But, I did not see the pattern, until I had to face it.

I didn’t know that there are people that do have problems with binge drinking until yesterday. Because of the posts here I decided to call my W’s OM’s ex-wife and talk to her. I was doing this to find out of the OM had had an A while they were married. Now, what is ironic about all of this is that she is a manager counseling people with alcohol problems. I talked to her for an hour, about my wife, her ex and myself…Yes, I got an hour of free counseling.

I did learn that there are binge-drinking disorders, and that it does make a difference in judgment. That one can do things that they nominally would not do. She also said, just as you did, that what occurred would not be classified as “true affairs”, because there were no emotions attached.

She did say, concerning my W, that EA’s are one of the toughest things to deal with, because of the “fantasy” state that is created.

Let me back up a bit…when I first started talking to her, she said that she believes that her ex (my W’s OM) is “harmless”. (This was before I told her about the PA). She mentioned that during her marriage with him, she does not know of any A’s. He did send e-mails to her friends, which made them (her friends) very uncomfortable (She didn’t find out about this until after their divorce). It sounds like the same flirtatious e-mails, like he originally started sending my W. She told me of one that he had sent a friend of hers that talked about him fantasying her in her kitchen, wearing a yellow robe. There was a lot I learned about the OM, and I think that he was just being himself…except the difference is that my W believed/believes it.

I know that things don’t change over night…although we all wish that they do…so I will make my plan, and stick with it. First do the MB weekend and follow-up sessions, if after that time there is no progress or changes, we will try counseling, then take it from there.

I will keep you all informed as to what happens, and again thanks for all the comments and advice.

Sincerely,
Some one who is hurting

Just a wifey 2002…Yes, I do have to admit that if I sought counseling first, three years ago maybe none of this would have happened. I hope that you took a look at my post above to JL, for one of the other comments that my W’s OM’s ex said was that they sought counseling too late.

I would like to say to every else out there reading this to seek counseling early…I did not because I was first of all scared, and secondly have heard horror stories of couples seeking counseling because they loved each other and wanting to try and work everything out, only to find that the counselor is not pro-marriage, and advising them on divorce. I had read MB’s outline on finding a counselor, and a lot of other information on this site and know the importance in finding someone who is trying to make the marriage work.

A friend of mine wrote me and said…

hi again. it sure sounds like the weekend you have planned can only help you. i wish i had a magic wand that i could wave and make everything okay for you ... but unfortunately, we're stuck in the real world!

Yes, we are stuck in the real world; there is no magic wand or crystal balls to tell the future. I sure hope that my plan is the correct way for me to proceed…It can’t hurt…the only thing that can hurt is to do nothing and I won’t do that!!!!

I hope that doing the MB weekend the end of March with follow-up, is the correct first step, for where I am now. I would sure hate to find out that I went to “counseling” too late!!!!!

I keep saying; “we can not change the past, but can learn from it and make the future what we want it to be.” (Yes, hindsight is great, and I’m sure that we all would have done a lot of things differently, but we really can not make any of it change)

I will continue to keep you informed!!!

<small>[ February 11, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Wife stll denying... ]</small>

Seeking out the right counselor isn't all that easy...BUT...if you're going on this weekend, ask there who in your area is familar with MB methods and principals...I'm willing to bet that they will be able to guide you to a local counselor who follows along these lines, is very pro-marriage. If they don't have a list of counselors, then when you seek counseling locally (if you don't do it by phone with the Harley's), then interview the counselor somewhat. Ask him/her what their normal ideas are...be VERY clear that your goal is to restore the marriage and self-discovery and healing. Be clear that divorce is not an option, that you want to rebuild and you need help on reaching that goal...your goal is NOT to have a friendly breakdown of the marriage. If the counselor is uncomfortable with that goal...keep looking.

A good counselor is worth their weight in gold...a bad counselor, worse then no counseling. You must be pro-active in seeking out the counselor who is "right" for you and your spouse.

Good Luck!

btw...I agree with worthatry about you're actions not being an affair...but I disagree about it not being just as harmful as an affair, it was a betrayal of your spouse and your marriage. It was more on the side of a ONS, without "doing the deed". All are betrayals...All are harmful.

I would avoid the power play of "you did more harm then I did"...it will only keep you from really healing. You have both betrayed your spouse and your marriage. Both of you have made mistakes...both of you are needed to repair those mistakes.

Just a wifey..
I have never thought that what I did as not wrong. All along I have put it in the category of a ONS, because it did happen. It was more that I was confused as to why it happened…not once or twice, but three times.

I was just trying to make a point that there are binge-drinking disorders, which I did not know about. I still, in my heart and mind do not feel that this is an excuse for what I did. All I know is that I am sorry for my actions and am trying to do all I can for my marriage.

I hope that some day, my wife will feel the same way…

WSD

WSD...My "btw" was not an attempt at a "slap" at you...I think you've been VERY good about taking full responsiblity for your poor choices. In fact much more then many as there is definitely a connection to your drinking and those past choices, yet you tend to downplay and not use this as an excuse to your mistakes, just as vital information as to what was going on with you when you made those mistakes.

I believe you wholeheartedly that you are remorseful, you looked at your behavior and took positive steps to make sure that you never put yourself in that position again.

There is no doubt that drinking impedes rational thought...just ask all the drunks on the road who think they can drive just fine and dandy...and end up killing others or themselves. Very often drinking does seem to play a large part in many affairs/near affairs.

Good Luck!

Just a wifey 2002…

No problem…thanks for the clarification…and all the support and advice.

WSD