It's now 2 mos since D-Day and we are going downhill. Altho i know and understand it's a "roller coaster ride" i'm frightened. last fri our 27yo D was told. WH did NOT want her to know, but i felt she needed to know....when was she supposed to know, when it is over, if that was the result...like, hi, this is mom, your dad found another woman and we are divorced? as for OW, NC now for 4 mos, so he says and so i believe b/c his time is mostly accountable.

both Ds came home and tried to talk to him re: MC to help resolve the prob. WH said HE is the prob, he knows it. they said we need a third person to help us straighten this out, HE said HE is the third person. he then accused us of sabotaging him and said he was "leaving and getting out once and for all, this is it, i've had enough of this s***"....YD said "if you go dad you'll never see me again" and he said i've already heard that from your sister. she said we just want to help you, we just want you and mom and us to be a family again, just b/c we are adults doesn't mean we don't need you as a dad and mom as a mom and our family. he said "move your car, i'm going to get a haircut" older D said you're running away again, just like you always do...and he said, i'll be back....which he was 2 hours later...after they were gone.

please help me. i am a physical, mental, emotional mess. yes, i am on anti-d's. i know it's early, but how do you survive for the long haul? i'm praying and praying and praying.

please please please answer.

Simmy...it's so hard when adult children become knowledgeable about the affair. Depending on their reactions, it can indeed make things much worse. It sounds as if your DD's have both come down fully onto your side...this might not be the wisest course. As now your H feels as if "everyone" is against him.

You're going to have to speak to your DD's (dear daughters). Yes, they have every right to their anger and emotional reactions...BUT...they definitely need to stay on the sidelines, not in the middle. They need to support BOTH you and your H in your decision to rebuild. Somehow they need to get a grip on their own emotions. Not easy, but they must. They need to support you both in your efforts.

They should NEVER threaten him with disowning...it's a pretty normal threat, but he loves them and they love him! He needs to know that he can make a mistake and still be loved.

Neither of you need them making judgements. It just is counter-productive to healing.

You need to calmly sit your H down and discuss your children's needs. They are reacting as they have been taught to react...by HIM and by you. You and he brought them up to believe certain things, to have certain morals and values. They are feeling exactly what he would feel if their H's betrayed them. Reassure H what he already knows...that they love him...they are just disappointed that he didn't live up to the standards which he has upheld all their lives. It's hard for them. Girls see their dad's as "the man who can do no wrong" and it's very hard for them to discover he's got clay feet. He needs to give them some time and they need to give you both a lot of love without adding their own emotional fallout.

I'm hoping that you did NOT go into details with either daughter. While they likely did need to know, they do NOT need private details. This is YOUR marriage. Remember, this is a chance (for both you and H) to teach them valuable lessons about forgiveness and how a marriage can succeed in rebuilding after a crisis. Not bad lessons for the young to learn.

Hope this helps some.

JaW,

As always, thank you for your words of wisdom.

Today WH asked if i had talked to YD since she was home on fri and i said yes, she wasn't upset or grieving, or disowning him, she only wanted us to work this out so she could have her family intact again b/c she loved us both.

yesterday she and i talked and she said she regrets many things she said to him, b/c she knows they were wrong and she didn't mean them and she "hit him when he was down". she may write him a letter to explain how she feels incl the part she still loves him.

as for telling them details, i actually don't know too many details to share except that it happened, didn't tell them who (altho i know) or where she lives, or any of the other FEW details i know incl how long.

i thot he would run/hide/stay away fri and yest and today, but surprisingly he didn't. he left only when he had to go to work, and returned in between. i take that as an effort, i pray to God i'm not wrong.

he did return to our bed fri night, he had been on the couch again for a week.

tell me how to act now? i'm listening with open ears and an open heart.

Simmy

Simmy --

I know you're frightened. This is all absolutely uncharted territory for you and your family. No rules or guidebooks to tell you what to say or how to react.

Your daughters are frightened too. "The Family" has been threatened, along with their stability and yours. These lashing-out statements from them are all part of their fear, as was H's reaction to them.

Ever try to approach a wounded animal? No matter how much goodness is in your heart, how solidly you know you wouldn't further harm that creature, the animal snaps out at you in instinctive fear. In a very real sense, H has been wounded too and, worse, by his own hand; it's a lot to absorb.

Your daughters reacted to this shocking news in a perfectly normal and natural way. Your conversation with YD yesterday shows a great deal of maturity and wisdom on her part. I think it's very smart for her to communicate her "second thoughts" to her father. He needs to know that his poor choice which is crippling your family will not permanently fracture it, that he is still loved in spite of it.

Your H still has a lot of business to work through. He needs to come clean with you and provide you with whatever information and detail that you require. He needs to talk with both daughters individually and be honest with them about his contrition and the future of your family unit.

You don't know many details because H is still hoarding them. He doesn't realize that your marriage may remain stuck--or worse, deteriorate--if he doesn't provide whatever you need to help you heal. He needs to know that and to know also that if he's serious about restoring your relationship and your trust, he holds the key.

I too take his not running away as a positive sign. I also take his return to your bed in the same light. Maybe these baby steps are a result of your family confrontation, a product of the "outing." Anger isn't always a bad thing. Honesty is sometimes hard to hear.

Maybe the air needed to be cleared in exactly the way it happened. Maybe H needed to further realize the consequences of his actions. Now, with your DD's awareness, it's all moved onto yet another level. Did H somehow think this would or could remain hidden forever?

The great Romantic composer and pianist Franz Liszt was playing a public concert for his adoring fans. At a critical moment in the midst of a difficult scale passage, he struck an obviously wrong note at the top of the keyboard. He instantly shifted the surrounding chord so that it was suddenly in tune with the wrong note. He then went racing back down the keyboard in the new chord at lightning speed, as if to say, "don't fancy that a little thing like this upsets me in the slightest." The moral: he showed the audience not that he couldn't make a mistake, but that he could get out of a mistake.

You and your H have a golden opportunity now to show your daughters and anyone else who is interested that together you can "get out" of this "mistake; that you actually can be better people for it and have a stronger and more solid relationship and family.

Ammon

<small>[ March 02, 2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: Ammon ]</small>

Ammon is right on track. H needs to come clean with YOU...and he needs to reassure DDs that he is committed to you and his family.

How are you to act? As your heart dictates. Be honest, but be kind. Be open, but don't overwhelm. LISTEN! And be heard.

I did discover that when I wanted information...asking one question quickly begets new questions...and I was TERRIBLE about letting the new ones override the first one and I would stop listening to that answer as I ran around trying to get all the other answers. And I ended up overwhelming my H, getting him frustrated and me either ending up crying or raging.

Make sure you stick to the subject. Make it a short subject if possible and then listen. IF you don't understand, then ask him to explain further. I also discovered that if I kept MY mouth closed...especially after he stopped speaking...he'd get uncomfortable and talk even more. I discovered some of the most useful information by this method...as a lot of the time...we don't know what to ask.

Good Luck!

JaW and Ammon,

I recall reading somewhere in one of these posts, someone asking you if you were MCs and you replied, no, just wiser for having "run the course". I referred to you as "angels". I don't know who you are or your life status, all I can say is I NEVER heard such wisdom, empathy, understanding from anyone.

Again, you've given me direction and hope and I'll put your ideas to use in continuing hope of rebuilding this marriage.

Of course, I answer your questions another: am I wrong not to WANT to know all the details? At the risk of redundancy; i know her name, where she lives, what she drives, how long the A lasted. The movies of the physical intimacy are fading, the part of them talking and sharing ideas and perhaps discussing me/future together are the worst to ponder and they are more difficult to erase. When I ask why: "I don't know. It was my fault." At first he said, he lost interest in me b/c I became too independant. Perhaps I did after the accident. But I asked him to do things with me, he refused, I realizing I had faced a life threatening situation set off to enjoy life. Thus began the "conflict" in his eyes and it goes on and on and on.

Both DDs want us to go to MC, he refuses. What now? I'll follow JaWs advice, but the only info I want is why? and he tells me it's not my fault.
I'm a gerbil. I'm a chipmunk chased and toyed with by the cat. I'm a squirrel jumping from tree to tree.

I've asked DDs to PLEASE be reasonable and talk to him as in Hi Dad how are you, normal talk. Right now they claim they can't, not even our older daughter who is working on her PhD and should know better. I guess the pain is stronger than the brain.

I'm going to be around for a while this time. I'll really need your help to get me through THIS crisis.

Meanwhile, I'll remain calm, listen with my ears and heart when he speaks, try as best i can to hold my ground, and pray.

When this resolves, I hope I can be as wise and as you and helpful to others who suffer through this.

Simmy

No! You do NOT need any other details...if you don't need them. The less details you need to heal the better! JMHO

Now to the "Why?" question! I've written this so often before, but it keeps coming back because this is the one question which we all want an answer to...but...sorry, you will NEVER receive one which will satisfy you. No matter how honest he is trying to be, no matter what he tells you...you're going to look at his answer as if he's got two heads and neither is working right.

You know him as a man with reason, who is kind, caring, and loving. Now, this same man is telling you he took a path which was NONE of these things. You're looking for a reasonable, logical answer from a reasonable, logical man...and it's not there! There is NO reasonable, logical excuse for his choice. You'll always see all the other options he could have taken, which were reasonable, logical, kinder...and you feel as if he's lost his mind, trying to get you to buy into... "I don't know. It was my fault."...but that IS the answer! He looks back now, and he doesn't have a clue how he could have been so stupid, so uncaring, so plain ole dumb!

As for the MC. If H won't go...you can't make him. But you seek out counseling for yourself, as he sees the benefits in you, maybe he'll see that there is benefits for him and you together. Lead the way...up to him if he follows are not. (I do agree with DD's the two of you need counseling...but you can't make that decision for him.)

Give DD's some time. I'm sure they are hurting and their confused, too.

Good Luck!!

JaW and Ammon,

It's been a sad week since our DDs came home and we had our family confrontation. I thought my tears were gone, I was wrong, and now I've moved into some state of numbness. WH and I were to go see YD and husband on Sunday, but she asked we not come yet, she decided she's not ready to see him and doesn't want us to drive an hour to feel uncomfortable and turn around to drive home.

Older daughter then said she would come home, but I made another "mistake" and asked that she at least say "hello" to her Dad and she informed me she's 30yo and I can no longer tell her what to say or control her behavior. Then she went on to tell me a story of being out w/friends last night and being "hit on" by a married man and how she told him she was in a committed relationship and she didn't go out w/married men, and what about his wife? And he said, my wife, so what? Told her thanks, I REALLY needed that. So, she has to punish ME too??????

Tonight, I am ready to run away from home. I am tired of this confusion. I am tired of WH's heavy sighs when he looks at me. I want to scream, HELP YOURSELF, what else can I do? I didn't do this, YOU DID.

I keep telling myself it's early in the process, it's early in the process...but you know, sometimes that just doesn't help.

Thanks for "listening", dear friends.

Simmy

Simmy...what's happening right now, is exactly what I feared if I'd informed our children. I believe that what is happening is normal.

Let me back up just a bit, and explain my reasoning from my experience. I didn't tell anyone at first. I didn't even know if I had enough emotional strength for myself, and I knew that I was not capable of dealing with my children's emotional fall out at the same time. Now with DDs both of whom are married with children of their own and live a little away from us, I could carry this off somewhat. Our DS however, was a different matter. He figured it out on his own, and because I was so tied up in my own pain and rage, I didn't see it for much too long...My Son suffered alone. Luckily, I did "swim" up out of my despair and H and I both talked to him. We still did NOT tell DDs. A mistake as it played out for us. As I ended up in the hospital one night and my H was left with telling them alone...and that wasn't right, I should have been by his side. Both DDs, even tho, miles away had known something was wrong with "mom" something was being kept secret...they discussed it and had come to believe that I must have cancer or some other serious illness. So strangly enough, their father's affair was a relief to them.

Now none of this came out within the whole family until about six months after d-day. So that the timeline was different, making it easier on my children.

Your girls are just plain mad at dad, their disappointed, their confused. Why the WS never take into account how their children will feel, I'll never understand. They barely consider the spouse, but children seem to be left out completely, except for using them as an excuse why they must cheat instead of leave the marriage.

Finally...getting to advice. I'd keep myself a little apart from the children right now. At this time, you and your H need to focus on the marriage, on the bond that the two of you shared, the reasons you got together and married in the first place...and it wasn't to have children...they were a bonus!

You're very right, keep saying..."This is new!"...because it is!!!!!!! It's going to take a lot more tears to be shed, a lot more painful conversations, a lot more patience, love, kindness and caring...and yes anger and pain. This is a LONG process! Keep your focus on the two of you right now...I'm sure you've raised wonderful, loving, bright, and compassionate girls...they'll manage on their own while mom and dad do some healing.

Good Luck!

JaW and Ammon:

Much like the "wounded animal" you described, Ammon, my husband continues at "arms length". Friday night i wrote him a note and told him how lonely i am and how tired i am of being alone. I heard him return from work and read the note. He came upstairs and slept in our bed. Saturday he told me he was trying to hire someone to help at our business; he worked again that evening, returned home and slept on the couch.

Today he is off, BUT he is at the business and i am alone. my dear friend in Florida has invited me to visit and i wonder, should i go? i really don't want to, but would it be better than to look at him when he's looking at me and see him avert his eyes, or listen to those deep heavy sighs, or wait in agony for him to reach out to me and he won't or can't?

I know he maintains NC. I know he feels guilty b/c he broke our wedding vows and our own vow. I asked him if it would help if we renewed our vows, his reply....i don't believe in that, i'll never get married again....i am married. What else can I DO??

Simmy

PS JaW, i noticed on another post dated today, in your signature, it now says +3, husband 47, married 24 years....is today a significant day???

Simmy...maybe it would be a good idea to take a SHORT break and visit your dear friend. BUT...only if you really want to do so.

You might want to print out the His Needs/Her Needs questionaire here on site and have you and your H both complete it. Hopefully this will get your H moving in the right direction to meeting some of yours. It sounds like you're trying to communicate your needs to him, but he's not listening. It may take MC to get the points across that are needed to be addressed...have you talked about counseling?

Yes...Today is our 24th anniversary...our birthdays are coming up in a few days, so went ahead and changed our ages at the same time. March is a busy month for us, besides both our birthdays and our anniversary, my mom's birthday and my sister's are this month!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JaW,

It's 5:25AM and here i am, on the computer! haven't slept much. Tried AGAIN to get close to H, he is totally unresponsive. We were watching TV in the family room and he fell asleep. As i was going upstairs, i gave him a hug. No response. Nothing. If i didn't know where he was all day, i'd swear he was with her, but he was at work, then stopped by to visit his mother (she told me so)Then he reacted in his usual way when i show him any affection, he slept on the couch.

I feel as though he is punishing ME for what HE has done. Yes, i am taking the blame for PART of the A, PART of it WAS my fault, but HE DID IT...he could've talked w/me, we could've disc what was going on, but that's water under that d*** proverbial bridge, and let's let it go now and start rebuilding.

He won't even CONSIDER MC. In the morning we are having a talk. I need to vent. I'm only doing further injustice to myself. If it's time for Plan B, i may as well face it. I think if he truly truly cared for me, he'd be falling all over himself to make amends, but then am i wrong for feeling THIS way????????

Simmy

NO! You are not wrong for feeling this way. The WS is either willing to help you heal, or they are standing in the way of your healing. There are no sidelines here from which he can stand and watch you heal.

Good Luck!

Simmy --

Have you and H had your talk? Were you able to vent and be heard?

I agree that his continuing behavior is puzzling. Why wouldn't he "knock himself out" to set this back on track and to reassure you in every possible way? Why is he back sleeping on the couch? Why wouldn't he want to renew your wedding vows with you? Is it really too early in the process or are there other issues? Lots of questions, not really any answers.

Is the Florida trip still a possibility? (That one you can answer!) But you'd said you really don't want to go... What would your time away give you or do for you?

If H is still against MC, that doesn't stop you from doing some counseling for yourself. At least get some professional guidance and direction. Try the Harleys right here on this site.

Bottom line: you're not happy with H's "half-hearted" attempts at reconciliation. Does he know that? That what he's giving you isn't nearly enough? That it's just not doing the job. It's so important for you both to have that on the table clearly and uniquivocally. You need to state it and H needs to hear it. Yes, it's early in this long journey, but seems as if H could be doing a lot more to help. In these situations, if what's happening isn't helping things, it's hurting things.

Keep us posted. We're here for you...

Ammon

JaW and Ammon:

No, i never got to vent b/c he remained passive, just listened, didn't reply. He's stuck on it's his fault, he doesn't know why he did it, etc etc etc. I'm stuck in neutral. He is making a great effort to talk and carry on long conversations which he hasn't done for several years. on Monday we were moving a table and had to maneuver it thru three doorways with some difficulty on my part. He started to get aggravated, but stopped himself immediately and talked calmly, explaining to me how to move it. This may not sound like much, but this comes from the man who rarely spoke, and when he did it was NEVER to my face, and always in a cruel bark. Then yesterday he was showing me something in a paper and he stood right against my arm and the side of my body, barely touching me. I wanted to move against him, but resisted. Again, such a little thing, but another baby step? He's returned to our bed, after usually falling asleep on the couch for a few hours. I've figured the trick is not to show him any affection. Then he's okay. Can it be that he's still A. mourning his lost lover? B. riddled w/so much guilt as he alleges that he can't accept any affection from me?

He won't renew our wedding vows, Ammon, b/c he "doesn't believe in that", he's "already married"...he'll "never get married again."
You ask, Ammon, if it's still too early or if there are other issues. honestly, i don't know. perhaps, it IS still too early as he has claimed from dday that the A had been on/off for "quite a while" and he had stopped seeing her for a coupla months before dday, reason being that he had sinned by breaking our wedding vows. other issues? what did you have in mind and maybe i can look for those?

no, i'm not going to florida right now. my friends are wife/husband and the husband's brother 61yo was downsized. he and his wife are there right now and spending 2-3 weeks w/them, followed by a visit from their daughter and family. so perhaps it's fate making me stay here. what did i hope it would do? i'm not sure. maybe the solitude and peace i'd have at some times could help me see more clearly but then again this was one thing he complained about, how i went travelling w/o him in my independant stage.

i was on computer last night about midnight and went to the counseling center three times to sign up for the Harleys and didn't do it. but i'm going to have to, there's nothing else i can do. i need to disc/talk/w someone who's heard all this before and i like the idea they are referred to as "coaches" as well as counselors.

thanks for sticking with me. i know we've got a long long long road to recovery. he never mentions divorce or leaving. sometimes when i was angry i did and he said for me to do what i felt i had to. i've stopped saying it and i've become calmer. that's when i noticed his change in attitude, too.

don't every worry about your advice being too tough. i need tough words too....anything to help.

Simmy

Simmy --

"By persistence, even the snail reached the Ark."

Baby steps add up. Look at the broad picture and be positive in your thinking. Keep focused on your goal and let these little increments accumulate. I'm encouraged by these "little" changes in your relationship, as I know you are. Glad he's back in the bed again.

You're right: he's still stuck, but remember the process has to take its own good time with all of its attendant ups and downs. It can't be rushed or skipped over, and that's a good thing since you want the rebuilding to be solid and firmly set.

Other issues? You've mentioned two candidates: A) mourning his lost lover, and B) he's riddled with guilt. I'd add at least a third consideration: C) are you absolutely certain that the A is over? Don't mean to raise this evil specter unnecessarily but something's in his way and, while it may just be him, our first thought is usually that of an continuing attachment on some level with an OP. At least, let's discount the possibility and then we can look elsewhere (this would come under the "tough advice" heading).

I'm a strong advocate for counseling so I say go for it, either with the Harleys or someone local. The Harleys are expensive in comparison, but the word is that it's money very well spent. Also, they deal with these sorts of problems almost exclusively.

No need to thank us for sticking with you. We're all here for each other and we all know the value of these exchanges on both the giving and receiving end. Glad to be able to help. Please let us know how you're doing and what's going on. We're here for you...

Ammon

Ammon:

I've wondered too if the A is truly over, i suspect it is, but i'm unsure about all contact. Tomorrow i'll get in touch w/someone who can help me solve this. It may take a few weeks, but i'll know for certain. He was home everyday this week, except for last night when he went to his mother's for 3 hours. now, i must believe he was there b/c his mother knows about the A and he darn well should know NOT to lie about going there for i could ask her if he was there and she will tell me the truth.

Today our older daughter came home and neither of them spoke. i asked her when she was going to speak to him and she said he is a hypocrite and she can't stand hypocrites. then i went upstairs and asked H how long it was going to be before the two of them started talking. he didn't reply. this is driving me insane. i feel as though EVERYONE is punishing me, they know how important family is to me, and no one is cooperating. then she said she would go buy him a card and leave it when she returns home tomorrow but she really doesn't mean it as he "killed" her mother by the worst betrayal in the world and she hates him.

what a difficult journey. i think it would be easier to give up and quit.

Simmy

Simmy --

It WOULD be easier to give up and quit, but it wouldn't be better, not for any of you (H, D's, you). This path to marital recovery is quite probably the most difficult journey you've ever undertaken, and there are no guarantees about the destination.

But, you need to do this for you, so that you can say you've done everything possible, so that you can face yourself in the mirror, so that you haven't turned your back on H or your marriage. This path is for you at this point, a choice you're making that is good and solid and "the right thing" in the face of many obstacles and great hardship. It's really the only choice, and thus not a choice at all.

Not unusual to doubt the cessation of an A, not at all. Let's see what your detective work turns up and let us know. I agree that the 3-hour period at his mother's last night in all probability happened--it's easy to confirm--and it's good that he's been home every day other than that. The greater overall concern is his puzzling emotional detachment, this "arm's length" and almost purposful distancing.

Remember that your D's remain severely wounded by H's poor decisions, and that their recovery will take perhaps as long as yours will. Can't be rushed and shouldn't. Talking with them or with H about them is probably counterproductive; your D's aren't anywhere near ready to "make peace" with him. H has no idea how long the process will take, or even if it will happen. He missed a good opportunity with you, however, by not replying to your questions about the time frame.

It doesn't sound like your family is "out to get you" or to purposefully impede your recovery, but I can understand you feeling that way. So when you do, vent to us here on the board and we'll sit with you whenever you need us.

Give it much time, have much patience, trust in the eventual outcome and hang in there. Your D-Day was less than three months ago; it's all still getting sorted out and worked through. H still holds the cards in the details category but you can grow and learn and improve without his input--do this for you.

Ammon

Ammon,

he left at 630 last night and didn't come home until 2 am. claims his brother came home from out of town. again, too easy to verify (which I WILL) so i believe him. also, he gave me this info w/o my asking.

put into motion this morning, my "detective work". now we wait.

dau bought simple card, said only, "thinking of you" and she signed w/her name only...no "love". she did put Dad on the envelope and left it in an obvious place.

younger dau sent e-mail that she and husband may come home for weekend. we'll wait to see if they do.

i am humbled by your caring and encouraged by your words. i pray and trust God to help us through this. hopefully He brought us to this point so that we can recover from all the anguish of the past 7-1/2 years from the time of my near fatal accident thru the A to enjoy the remainder of our years together. if not, may He give me the strength to do what is best.

"By persistence, even the snail reached the Ark."

Simmy

PS when my H's sister was diagnosed w/CA, her H began an A which continued for several years until SIL/BIL separated. my H HATED the BIL for doing this. my SIL went into remission and the BIL was diagnosed w/CA. SIL took him in and cared for him until death. H never liked him for what he did. i think he remembers this and now considers himself as being just like the BIL. your thoughts?