Having just realized on Saturday night that my H is having an EA with OW, I thought it might be helpful to post what signs I see now that I ignored when they were happening. I also precursor this with the fact that I have no proof of an EA, I suspect it strongly.

H & OW took a business trip to Seattle. When H returned, he spoke with me about how OW was dissatisfied with her marriage. OBS didn't give OW enough attention.

Upon H's return from Seattle, he immediately hopped into bed with me and told me how much he missed me. Unusual.

Within a week of H's return, he moved into the guest bedroom with the excuse that the dog snored.

H has been slowly becoming more distant. No longer calling me at work to say Hi, no longer calling me when he's away on business.

H has been discouraging me from going on any business trips with him.

H has taken a sudden interest in the finances.

H has argued more with the children.

H suddenly has to go to the office on weekends.

When out with OW, OBS, H & myself (we are very close friends) OW & H will engage in animated conversation about work, leaving myself and OBS out of the picture.

OW & H make frequent eye contact.

Hope this helps someone else. It's a little bit of therapy for me right now.

Kim,
I think you're gut feeling about the A is accurate. Based upon what you've written I have the following observation/ guess. Your H is definitely having an A. The question is more what type: P or E. My guess is that it may have already turned P:
The business trip and the weekend work give plenty of opputunity for the PA.
All the other signs are definitely those of an A but may not indicate whether it is P or E.
The one last one that has me worried for you is the moving into the guest room. Again that says that it may have already turned P.
H's comment about OW marriage problems is another clue that there is some sort of R going on. If the topic comes up again you may want to suggest to him that it is not a good idea for friends of the opposite sex to discuss M problems and that it could be better handled by a friend of the same sex or better yet a MC. Again my guess is that he may have told you a lie of ommission. Meaning yes she did mention her marriage problems but your H forgot to mention that he said the same thing also.
Besides this site there are other sites that describe behaviour that indicates ifidelity.
What is the cell phone activity like? Does he send e-mails from the home computer?
Regardless if the A is E or P. This site has alot of excellent advice to offer. Meeting EN's, How to deal with the ongoing A, how to recover once its over (if you choose to).
My advice is spend time here on the boards as "therapy" as you said but read every page up on the main site.

Have you shared your concern with H??? If so what was his response? I'm sure I can guess but post it anyway.Be proactive and tell him how you feel about the OW sharing intimate M details with him. See where that takes you.

Thanks for the advise. This weekend it all blew up and he knows that I know, but he says that she's just a very good friend. I think the relationship is still E, but soon to change. He's been doing his own laundry for a few weeks. yesterday he left his laundry in the dryer and I got a chance to fold it. I found silk boxers, which I have tried to get him to wear but he has refused, saying they are uncomfortable. This tells me that it will soon be P, if not already.

We have an appointment with MC on Friday. We'll see how it goes. He doesn't love me anymore and doesn't want to go on with the rest of his life like this he says. I'm not sure that he will respond to MC, but I've got to try. I WILL NOT make this easier for him. I WILL NOT roll over and go away. He hardly speaks to me, shows me no affection....all of this started this weekend. I guess since he's semi-out, now he can try to break the ties with me.

I left an article for him to read in the guest room about Emotional Infidelity. I don't know if he's read it or not. I'm sooooo tempted to call the OW's H and let him know what I suspect, but I don't think I'm ready for that yet or if I will ever be.

I didn't answer all of your questions. Yes, I have checked th home e-mail for e-mails. None there. I don't have access to his cell phone, but the bills I receive don't really show any unusual activity. He probably is using his work e-mail account and has a calling card to use when he is on a trip. My guess is that he uses those things to contact OW.

I have to go to work today, and don't know how I can face it. It's going to be very, very tough.

Kim,
I just typed in a lengthy response and it was lost. I'll redo it later tonight but in the meantime look at SH's concepts on Meeting Emotional Needs, Syurviving Infidelity & Tree Stages of Marriage.

Also go to www.findarticles.com and search for "Shattered Vows" It has an excellent definition of EA's.

Be careful giving H printouts of articles at this point. More later on that and how my situation may give insight.

Lastly. Since you are going to MC on Friday, what is MC's position on EA's? How do they deal with people having affairs? Some MC's act as impartial divorce coaches. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He doesn't love me anymore and doesn't want to go on with the rest of his life like this he says. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try to give more detail on what he said about your relationship and about the relationship with the OW. It may provide clues.

cwmac

Let's see, I'm trying to block as much about the last few days out as possible, but I'll try to remember. H says that we have grown apart, we no longer have anything in common. He says that I haven't changed in my interests, it's just that he has changed in his. His primary interest now is work, and only work (of course, he works with OW). He says that he can talk to her about anything and he just doesn't feel like talking to me about the same stuff. He also says that sex is not important to me, but it is to him. (My comments on that: He has been having functional problems in the sex dept for about 2 years. I told him it wasn't that important so that he wouldn't feel badly about it. Guess I made a mistake there) That's really about all that he said about our relationship. He kept repeating over and over (I'm sure he had rehearsed it) "I just don't love you anymore. We've grown apart. It's not your fault, it's me. I really don't want to hurt you. I just can't see living the rest of my life with someone I see as a roommate."

BTW, I went to IC today. I'd been having thoughts of suicide, and felt it was extremely important to see someone NOW. I also did not want to discuss these feelings with him or the MC, I felt it was important for me to see someone that was strictly on my side. I feel much better, and will start meds tomorrow.

Okay, I think this is a good sign. I gave H the article on Emotional Infidelity last night. I had doubts that he would read it, but tonight he came home and talked with me more than he has since D-day (Mar 2, a day that shall live in infamy). He said that he had read the article, and it was right on target. It was exactly the kind of relationship that he was having with OW. They had not gone P yet, but probably would have eventually. Strongly attracted to each other, and able to talk about their marriages with each other.

H voluntarily cut it off with OW today. Although it is impossible for them to have NC since they work together, they have agreed that they will spend no time without other parties present. They will no longer discuss their personal lives with each other. H told OW that we were going to MC and were going to have a serious try at working it out. Each has cancelled various business trips to ensure that they are not on a trip alone together anymore. I think that we may be on the road to recovery. I know that we still have a ways to go, and perhaps some more setbacks with OW, but now I have hope that we will make it.

OWH also opened his eyes on Saturday night, and saw what was going on. I guess he thinks it has already been physical, I still believe it did not quite get to that stage and stayed E. OWH is making demands on OW, she is thinking divorce is only solution.

My question now is, do I give OWH a call (remember, we were all very good friends until this) and suggest this site to him? I don't want recriminations or anything like that. I don't even want to discuss H & OW relationship. I just want to try to give him some tools to try to save his own marriage.

Any thoughts?

Kim,
That's good news! I hope his confession is legitemate and not just a cover of a PA. Why does OWH think its P?

Read the articles on NC and ask your H to write a letter to OW. SH says that NC means NC and people should quit their jobs to carry it out. How does your H respond to this?

The biggest question that I have is, did your H step over the line." An EA can be going on with the secrecy, the intimacy and the sexual chemistry but did he or she step over the line by telling the other party about the feelings. My guess is yes based upon your previous postings.

Does your H show remorse? If so in what ways?

I would ask your H alot of questions about the EA. I'd ask for details on the conversations and what was said. Ask him what he told OW about your R. Ask him how he'll be open and honest with you in the future about his feelings and activities. Based upon all of the answers youcan decide how far NC should go.

I'm happy if your on the road to recovery this quickly. Just remember the road is bumpy!!!

cwmac

Kim,
I forgot that you asked about talking to the OWH. Most people on this site warn against it although I think SH says it can be done in certain situations. I don't know............

Well...since you were best friends you may want to ask him about her side of the story to compare notes to see if the lies are continuing. Tell him about the site. It sounds as though he is very angry.

Remember despite the recovery you need to get to the route problem behind it.

I actually slept for 6 hours last night, so I feel like a new woman.

We are on the road to recovery, but boy do I know it is going to be bumpy. H is an EXTREMELY ethical man. This situation I'm sure has been very difficult on him. Because of his ethics he would never go P until both BS were out of the scene. I do believe though that they have expressed their feelings for each other. The reason that I gave him the article is that he is an intellectual and part of his difficulty in this was trying to understand what was going on. Once he could put a name to it, and understood that it truly was and EA despite not having P involved, he knew that he was wrong.

He spilled all last night. Told me of their conversations and even the feelings that had developed from their times together. He talked about when they went out to have drinks, when they were alone travelling, etc. There are probably a few secrets left, but they'll come out eventually. I'm not ready to push him to it yet. I NEED MY BOOKS!!

We obviously have alot of addressing of issues and mending to do. H says that OH is extremely angry and ready to destry both of them. OH could do it without a doubt, so that may be another issue that we will have to face. If that does happen, I'm sure I won't have to worry about H quitting his job, he'll lose it. This is a very small town, we may have to move.

At least now he understands that MC will probably help, is willing to try when he gets there. I suggested that he might also need to get some IC for himself, and told him that I am already seeing one. I am reluctanly flying on cloud 9 right now, wary that the cloud may dissipate and I'll fall to earth with a loud bang.

Still going to church on Sunday to renew my relationship. H can come if he wishes.

Hi. I have been lurking on this board for a while now but never posted anything. When I was reading today I seen someone mention an article on EA's. I went to the web site but could not find anything. If someone could help me locate that I would really appreciate it. I believe this is what my husband had been involved in.

Thanks so much

web page

This one is very informative, it sure helped me.

Kim, hello, sorry to hear of your situation.

Something you said caught my attention. My FWH is also an intellectual - I know some MBers warn those who have just discovered an EA or PA and this site NOT to share the info, but...I did share it with mine - unintentionally! (Brief history: FWH had 4 - 6 month EA with coworker, dday 6-15-02, I ousted him from the home for a week, found Marriage Builders site and read EVERYTHING! His first week back home, our printer ran out of ink and I wanted to print the ENQs. Emailed hubby a link to the ENQ and asked that he print it for me. He came thru the door that night with over a hundred pages from the site and said, "This is EXACTLY what we need!") If your spouse is clicking with the EA information, I'd say go for it and share all the info with him so both of you can get crackin on recovery!

FWH and I use POJA before I post - and he requested that I include a couple more things here. He worked with OW - his NC letter was very professional and very direct. I found a copy earlier for another person. If you would like to see what we used, let me know and I'll post a copy here.

Also, because of the work situation, he kept me advised via email at all times regarding every contact - even incidental contact. He kept me in the loop with emails that read, "near contact - she was at coffee pot when I entered breakroom, I turned and exited when I saw she was present" and "she walked past my office twice this morning." This really helped me rebuild trust in him, and it helped him because it kept him honest.

That's another aspect of the program that I find to be extremely important - both partners must be truly and radically honest with each other. It's not easy, because sometimes you are afraid you will hurt your spouse if you are honest about an issue - but protective lying is not healthy!

Good luck to you!

thank you for your insight. I'm in such turmoil right now, I'm just not sure what to do. I believe that he is trying to cut off contact with her, but I also believe that it may be too soon. That he will try to stay away but that absence will make the heart grow fonder. I don't think that he is committed yet to trying to save our marriage. I'm hoping that MC on Friday will start him on the road to trying to save us. Right now, he is being open with me, which is much better than trying to guess what is going on with them. He should be home from work in about 1/2 hour, and then we will see how today has been for him. I just keep on smiling, keep on saying nice things. It's so hard sometimes though. Will I have to be on eggshells forever?

I really have been fighting to try to find a reason. I can't think of anything that changed in the past few years that could have caused this.

I am fortunate in that H is the head of a non-profit, and OW is on all of the boards. He doesn't work with her all day, every day. Just meets for board meetings. If he can keep it to that, we may survive and he may get over her.

Any advice, any help, ANYTHING at all is welcome.

Do check out 50 signs your spouse is having an affair (All found on this board)....

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

Have you considered asking your husband to complete the EN questionaire? That might help you gain some insight.

Also, have you read up on Love Busters? That helped us change behavior patterns that were pretty deeply ingrained.

I know it seems like you're balancing on eggshells now, but if he decides to work with you on the marriage, it won't stay that way. It will get better - even if he decides NOT to work on the marriage, Kim - it WILL get better.

I'm waiting for my books to get here so that I can find more LBs that I might be doing. Hopefully, it will be soon.

I have the EN questionaire printed out, just haven't had the guts to give it to him yet. I'm hoping that I'll have the guts this weekend when we have some time to go over it.

I did a major LB yesterday. He said "you look nice when you fix your hair and put on makeup. Too bad it took this to make you do it" I said "I didn't do it for you, I did it for me". How I wish I could take those words back!!

Hello, Kim.

I wonder if perhaps you've stumbled upon at least one of the things that changed in your relationship over time? I can only share our own experience...

Basically, I wasn't "fixin up" for hubby. I had gained some weight, and then lost it. True, my figure was back, but I WASN'T showing it off! Baggy, oversized tee shirts and loose jeans had become my uniform. And I DEFINITELY relate to not doing the hair and makeup thing - completely! Who has time for that with all the other everyday LIFE stuff! Then came the wake up call...and now I make sure I find the time!

Had the hair cut and colored, bought all new makeup, started tanning, tossed all the old 'tent clothes' and replaced those things with clothes that show off my figure and my skin.

When hubby goes off to work in the mornings, he sees me in a bathrobe with my hair a mess. He gets to work and sees freshly painted faces of well heeled women on their BEST behavior, some of whom have out their "hot now" sign as hubby describes it. But now, when hubby comes thru the door at night, he's not greeted by "frumpy wife" anymore! Even if I don't have time to do the hair and makeup, I am in clothes that flatter rather than obscure my figure. I had to make it IMPOSSIBLE for myself to do otherwise, so I took all the baggy, unflattering clothes to Goodwill!

And don't feel TOO bad about your comment to your husband, because you ARE doing this for you! As you make changes and you know you are looking better, you start to feel better, and then the confidence (which gets a beating from the discovery of the EA or PA) starts to go up, so really, it IS for you!

kim don't want to rock your boat. But I would strongly suggest you do dig a little deeper.

Find out if they were at the same motel/hotel on business trips. Then try and find out if they had adjoining rooms. If the OW is married they would need adjoining rooms in case either spouse called their rooms.

You really do need to know if its a PA.

Many WS's are very ethical with good morals...but the fog/fantasy of affairs over-rides those values. My wife said during the affair she felt that since she wasn't giving the OM her heart it was really cheating....of course out of the fog she knows better.

Kim, I know you have a lot to deal with right now. And you are getting great advice here, no doubt about it.

I believe for some it is most important to focus on getting all the details of the EA or PA out in the open right away. I also believe that it isn't
that way for everyone. For some, it is most important to begin looking at ways to improve the relationship right away. In our situation...

Focusing on the details of his EA was the last thing I wanted to do. My reaction was to immediately start looking inward to determine what changes had crept in over the years that had brought us to that place. You mentioned before that your husband responded very positively once you shared some of the "tools" that MB provides - same thing happened here. I used them solo until hubby was introduced to the concepts. Then, together, we used the MB tools to help us assess our married relationship - and we found it was quite different from our courting relationship. Together we've used the MB tools to build a better marriage. It hasn't been easy nor are we "perfect" - but to borrow from AA, it's about progress, not perfection!

If the two of you decide to work on the marriage, you'll have ample time to get all the details that you need in order to process what has happened. My husband answered all of my questions regarding details of the EA when I was ready to ask them. I had asked a few things right away, but it took a while before I was ready to ask for details. Looking back, I'm so thankful that I wasn't up to asking for details immediately, because the person I was then would have LB'd all over the place, further draining my precariously low account in his Love Bank! I think we were fortunate in that both of us understood how very important it was that we show love and tolerance for each other, and avoid LBs as best we could, during those conversations. (Sure, we slipped now and then - but usually one of us would recognize what was going on and remind the other that we needed to show love and tolerance if we were going to get thru it - and eventually, we did get thru it!)

I also asked him to read several threads here at the MB forums so that he would better understand several things, including why I would need to ask
the same questions repeatedly for a time, and why it was absolutely essential that he provide me with every detail I needed when I asked for it
rather than withhold things in an effort to protect me. You can read on these boards how devastating it is to discover later down the road that your WS actually kept things from you in an effort to protect you. Protective lying is dangerous and unhealthy!

Again, every situation is different, just thought I'd share a bit of how it went here in ours.