Cirrus: you are over-generalizing. A great many of us, me included, were working hard on our marriages and it was our spouse who was neglectful and focused elsewhere. A writer of one of the "affair recovery" books discussed occasionally on these boards (not Harley) claims that it is the WS that is neglecting the marriage relationship. Harley seems to claim (if you read his books, he doesn't actually say this, but it is a common belief among his readers) that it is unmet Emotional Needs that cause affairs. The truth is somewhere in between, and is different for different "types" of affairs. In Mulliken's "The State of Affairs" the type of affair he describes as the "Lonely wife" has huge issues with neglect by the BS. "The Double-Life Man" type in the same book has almost no issues with neglect on the part of the BS.

However, you ask an interesting question: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So answer me: why would I want to purposefully put myself BACK into an emotionally neglectful, depressing, self-defeating situation/mindset, just to have my emotional needs go continuously unfulfilled, and have the cycle repeat itself(?), knowing that my spouse is only reacting out of fear of losing his comfortableness, and not b/c of love? Because ultimately, therein lies the difference.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are two parts to my answer. Part one is: don't go back to such a relationship, for any reason. If you read "Surviving an Affair", you will see that Harley does not recommend this. He recommends changing the relationship, and gives you the tools to do that. The second part is that the why someone is changing does not really matter, if the end result is a great marriage. Don't go back to a bad marriage. Take your bad marriage and make it a great one. It is possible, many of us have. Read the book. Follow the recommended recovery path. If your spouse refuses to follow through and goes back to their old habits, you can always leave later.

One last thing: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> knowing that my spouse is only reacting out of fear of losing his comfortableness, and not b/c of love? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When did you become able to read minds? If every time I did something nice for my W she attributed a selfish motivation to my actions, I would probably neglect her, too. Why bother doing anything nice for her if it always went unappreciated?

Re: johnh39

(Thank you for responding)

Granted, I may be over-generalizing. I'll attribute it to too many thoughts to be able to properly put them down in a concise manner. And yes, I’m sure I cannot disagree that many “were working hard on our marriages and it was our spouse who was neglectful and focused elsewhere.”

I will obtain a copy of Mullikens “The State of Affairs”’; basically b/c at this point, I will be following “the never give up” mindset I have in all matters….b/c one never knows. However, the connotation of an ‘Emotional Affair’ has me second guessing (or at least questioning) ALL my interactions w/members of the opposite sex, (lol), especially since I grew up w/3 older brothers, have always interacted w/males better, and am in a male dominated field. I was never promiscuous, have had strong values and ideals, have clearly defined principles, and do not have overly intimate conversations w/males. However, now I feel suspect; it’s very uncomfortable questioning my motives(?) per se, but this I will do in order to be certain regarding myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When did you become able to read minds? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope – have never been a mind reader, however, as mentioned before, “Actions speak louder than words.” I found the MB site a couple weeks ago; printed out the majority of the pages, and gave them to my H. He has yet to try to implement any of the strategies; this from a man who would “do anything”! Also showed him the MB weekend; his response “I couldn’t do that”. (Yes, I know I could implement the strategies, however, I’m tired and hurt myself, especially since I am now FINALLY aware from where my self-defeating feelings have been emanating.) In addition, I know that I had, consistently, reached out to my H to awaken him to our remoteness, and I received little or no response; “because he has been happy” (his words). As I said earlier, regardless if one has the terminology to associate w/actions and feelings, one who loves, has or should have, an underlying knowledge of their relationship; if you choose to ignore it….well… Even a plant needs to be watered everyday, or it will die…however, you can take that lifeless root, change its environment, and it can flourish.

I have been open and honest w/him, however, he has twice threatened divorce, accused me of never having loved him, used our son as a weapon, slandered me to my family (re: small faux pas’), my words are being twisted, I cannot cry – I cannot laugh, I’m being accused of having a hidden agenda, etc. (This from a man I had the greatest respect and love.) He says I’m not trying to ‘work on it’, which to a point could be very true, however, I explained that I am also emotionally upset and lack trust, especially since he has been trying to attack me through my fears. And it seems the more I control my emotions, the more my motives are being attacked; when I don’t control my emotions, I’m accused of being hateful and cruel.

As for nice gestures: I have always shown my H my appreciation for any and all displays of affection that he has shown me. However, considering that the avowals of love are coming at a time when the security of our marriage is threatened (but not when I asked for it earlier, from my heart), it does smack of insincerity. He is not a child, he had a responsibility; he chose to ignore it; I’m assuming for selfish and careless reasons. And now, because of him ignoring me, us, & our marriage, and his threatening childish behavior, I have a hard time trusting him and his motives. So maybe I should say “ believingmy spouse is reacting out of fear” rather than “knowing”. BTW….there has been very few ‘nice gestures’ – mainly it’s been promises of ‘things to come’, interspersed with (I feel) unrealistic expectations. I’m just wondering “what about right now”, and how long is long enough?

We have been together 12+ years, married 7+; in all this time, we have never argued (at least in the most negative sense – like now!) and have always been able to come to an agreement over areas of discourse. The sad part is: I believed I was happy, but couldn’t understand why I was crying all the time, had suicidal thoughts, and had feelings of despair; all of which I kept to myself (blamed it on stress – although there was none, and ‘bucked up’ for the sake of our son). Now that I know why and from where those feelings had come, and seeing those feelings have dissipated, I truly lack the courage to expose myself to the same situation. Furthermore, I look upon my H’s neglect and inattentiveness as the cause of these feelings, and I cannot but help hold him responsible in some small part. It is not lack of forgiveness; more an attitude of knowing; and I cannot change him. Don’t get me wrong… I know I sound cold, logical, and uncaring, however, I will say that thoughts of divorce and the time-period after really do scare me. Nevertheless, I do not appreciate being emotionally blackmailed, nor will I allow myself to drown in emotion or let my irrational mind take over.

Cirrus,

You "logic" is a little weak. First you blame your H for your classic case of depression </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The sad part is: I believed I was happy, but couldn’t understand why I was crying all the time, had suicidal thoughts, and had feelings of despair; all of which I kept to myself (blamed it on stress – although there was none, and ‘bucked up’ for the sake of our son). Now that I know why and from where those feelings had come, and seeing those feelings have dissipated, I truly lack the courage to expose myself to the same situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These my dear lady are the classic symptoms of depression, not a bad H. Second, you claimed in your first post that you won't go back, that you are much happier, then why didn't you divorce your H before starting this affair, or is it affairs?

Finally, the definition of an EA is a relationship that detracts from your marriage, where the focus is on another person rather than your spouse.

Perhaps, you should stop and consider what you have and are doing once again.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We have been together 12+ years, married 7+; in all this time, we have never argued (at least in the most negative sense – like now!) and have always been able to come to an agreement over areas of discourse. The sad part is: I believed I was happy, but couldn’t understand why I was crying all the time, had suicidal thoughts, and had feelings of despair; all of which I kept to myself (blamed it on stress – although there was none, and ‘bucked up’ for the sake of our son). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Though my situation was slightly different, I empathize. I wish I had found this site at year 7 - that's about when things started to go seriously downhill for us. Of course, this site did not exist back then. The "peaceful" unhappy marriage of two conflict avoiders who did not understand each other. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is not a child, he had a responsibility; he chose to ignore it; I’m assuming for selfish and careless reasons. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your assumptions may not be accurate. Where I did not fulfill my marital obligations it was mostly due to ignorance. I think my wife would say the same, with some unresolved guilt thrown in, at least until the affair, but the marriage was bad long before the affair started. We did not know a better way. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I inadvertently 'connected' per se, w/someone who makes me laugh and makes me happy.... why the hell would I want to shut that off just to keep beating my head against a wall for an emotionally distant spouse who only reacts to me b/c I pitched a fit? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't suggest that. No more beating head against the wall. First, Plan A, then, if that does not work, Plan B. I do suggest shutting the good stuff with the OM off, though, because if you don't the rest of this stuff won't work. It requires ALL your emotional energy.

BTW, I completely agree w/ your contention that you can have an affair with work, hobbies, same-sex friends, the TV, or anything else you love more than your spouse. My wife's non-human lover was work before she met a human one. Survivng an Affair is pretty hard on the BS and makes it clear that if they want to fix their marriage, they have to make some changes, too. "Neglecting the WS" is not part of the recovery plan.

My wife and I read SAA together, and took the questionaires. It was eye-opening, and showed us many things we did not understand about each other. Ya gotta do the questionnaires though. They are more important than the books, really.

Re: JustLearning
(Thank you for responding – I appreciate the food for thought)

First, I would like to state that I do not act impulsively. I am very well aware of the dynamics of emotions affecting thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These my dear lady are the classic symptoms of depression, not a bad H. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Assume what you will, however, I do know that I was lonely and felt alone, which is a major cause of depression. Depression does not happen without a cause, and there was, and is, nothing else in my environment that would have a bearing on my negative emotions. And I would like to correct my previous post: I was not “crying ALL the time”, however, I did have quite a few moments that I did cry and could never quite put my finger on it. I’m assuming now it was b/c I refused to believe that I felt lonely and unfulfilled; b/c how can someone who “has it all” be unhappy?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Second, you claimed in your first post that you won't go back, that you are much happier, then why didn't you divorce your H before starting this affair, or is it affairs?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Until I stumbled onto the MB site, I did not know that there was such a thing as an Emotional Affair, however, imagine my guilt, surprise, and shame, when I realized I had become attached emotionally to this other person (I knew this was not good even before I found MB!). I have not had a physical affair, and I spoke w/my H about my attachment. Basically, this is when everything (dissatisfaction, unhappiness, etc) within our marriage has started to "come to light". After much soul-searching, this is when I realized that something was/is terribly wrong; thus I started to look for answers and stumbled onto this site, among others. I have tried to explain to him that evidently, my emotional needs for intimacy and romance are not being fulfilled, he in turn has started nit-picking, and doing personal attacks on me. I understand that his ego may be bruised, however, in light of the fact that he stated he was willing “to make it better”, and has been provided the information to “put the process into motion”, it is somewhat disheartening to see little effort, other than “business as usual”. And, although he has not listed his order of emotional needs, I believe I know him well enough to have a general idea of which come first; however, it is somewhat difficult to continue to meet his emotional (physical) needs when I feel that it is a continuation of the same situation.

Of course, there is the “blame game” and our conversations go nowhere; either we are blaming each other, or ourselves. As for saying, “I won’t go back”; I meant that I would not go back to the mindset that caused us to be where we are at this moment in time. I am trying to ‘force’ him to accept some basic truths (for I believe he has been unhappy also – and there is evidence of it), however, I continually get the impression that he would choose to gloss it over and resume our previous path; non-confrontational. Why I feel/think that is b/c, when I try to speak w/him he denies any dissatisfaction on his part, however, he does concede that he must have been unhappy, or he would not have involved himself w/activities away from his spouse & family, however, he does not personally claim the emotion. Therefore, either he is lying, or I’m very good at filling his love banks!

Re: johnh39
(Thank you for responding again)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is not a child, he had a responsibility; he chose to ignore it; I’m assuming for selfish and careless reasons. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your assumptions may not be accurate. Where I did not fulfill my marital obligations it was mostly due to ignorance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Looking over your spouse’s head to view TV when your spouse approaches you, and keeping your nose stuck in a magazine when your spouse is trying to have a conversation w/you (stating that you can listen and read at the same time);…. Is that the epitome of ignorance or a conscience choice to “not give”? At the very least, it is rude & discourteous; why do I want to be w/someone like this? I mentioned my dislike of being treated in this manner, however, it continued; therefore, I assumed that I was asking for too much, and/or I was imposing upon him while he was engaged in his activities. After reading about Love Banks, etc, here on MB, I realize that my needs are very important, and I’m not going to “back down” or compromise. If I’m being unrealistic, please feel free to correct me, however, I’ve made a conscience decision that I want to be happy, I want him to be happy, and I will not allow us to slowly suck the life out of each other. If he continues to stick his head in the sand and avoid the truth, then that is exactly what will happen, especially if I choose to follow him on the same course.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do suggest shutting the good stuff with the OM off, though, because if you don't the rest of this stuff won't work. It requires ALL your emotional energy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Logically, I agree w/what you are saying, but it is a darned hard thing to do, especially since this is the VERY thing that I have been craving for YEARS, and all my requests for attention have fallen on deaf ears. Now I feel like I’m required to go back into starvation mode again – a mode that evidently wasn’t mentally healthy for me, while continuing to fill his love banks, w/the prospect of receiving nothing in return AGAIN. Furthermore, I think I have displayed a great restraint (not to mention caring & respect for my marriage) in not having fallen into such a situation earlier.

In addition, our (mine & my H) interests lay in completely different directions, and we have not had any kind of mentally stimulating conversation for quite awhile. It has been rather frustrating to try to speak to someone who has no idea about what you are talking, and shows little interest. The only time we seem to “connect” is when he is speaking on his activities and interests, and common family activities, and I am paying attention (which I do out of respect and consideration). I’ve reached the point that I don’t even bother to share my life w/him because it somehow isn’t absorbed. (and please don’t say there isn’t a my life, your life, our life; because there are parts of each of us that we live separately; they can be merged into OUR life, however, only if there is open communication).

To add a little more information: we lived together for 3 years and married when I got pregnant. I remember we were friends, and we treated each other kindly; which for me (coming out of an abusive relationship) was a great comfort. There really has never been any excessive romance or great shows of affection; and having been in a highly emotional relationship prior, I was content, I suppose, to not have the emotion; content to be w/someone who didn’t treat me hateful; now however, I’m viewing it as indifference.

His ballistic treatment of me lately feels like a violation; his threats of divorce are out of place; and his use of our son for leverage are uncalled for and detrimental to our son. He is very angry at me, as if I am trying to purposefully hurt him. I certainly had no initial intents on hurting him, however, I must say that he is convinced that I am, therefore, I must concede that it is a possibility, and I am trying my best not to.

In addition, he used his savings to purchase ‘our home’, and I use the term loosely, b/c even after 12 years of being together, 7 married, he only put my name on the deed about a year or two ago, at the recommendation of our lawyer. I believe b/c the lawyer stated simply that at that time the house was half mine anyway. This may be a moot point to some people, and I may be putting more significance on the matter than I should, however, to me, it does show a lack of commitment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ya gotta do the questionnaires though. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ummmm, I’ve done mine.

Disclaimer: Of course, this is all from my point of view; my H’s could be entirely different…I’m sure.

Cirrus -

You sound like you're one hurt, angry, upset lady. You have my sympathy, very much so. One thing I learned in the course of more than a year of hurting and sadness was how to act and react in a loving way, in spite of that. It's a helluva lesson to learn, but I also think it's worth it.

The other thing I'd say is that you both need to see a marriage counselor (MC) Really Really soon.

Really soon.

Did I mention right away?

Oh, and prolly all this should be in another thread, since I think this one was originally DI's thread....

Cirrus, if you do not have any hope in your H ever meeting your EN's, then why don't you do the honorable thing and start to prepare for divorce?

As much as you like to beleive that your OM is different, he is more likely to be like the rest of his kind and once he has to deal with the possibility of you becoming his responsibility, he will drop you and move on to the next vulnerable victim. Maybe I can explain it better this way, what would your opinion be of a woman that your H was having an EA with? would it be a good one? I think you know the answer to that question. No person who knowingly involves him/herself with a married person is likely to be an honorable individual.

I hope I made you think a little.

I agree that a good MC would be a great help - it can help to have a third person's perspective. Please before you get one read the stuff about MC's in the link in my sig line. I have so many personal friends that have had bad MC experiences it is really tragic. And these boards are full of similar stories, unfortunately. Look, my W was about where your H is (OK, maybe not QUITE that bad), and I stuck it out for another 10 years and through a 3-year affair before things turned around. It is not a path I would choose again, nor recommend - but the present is REALLY good. So it is possible if you both work at it. Apparently you are not capable of motivating each other right now. You need some outside help.

The "not in love - were never really in love" IS soluble, despite popular opinion to the contrary, but if your potential MC's don't know how to deal with that, keep looking.

I sympathize with not wanting to give up your relationship with the OM. I know how great a close intimate friendship can be - I have one with my wife. Now. It was not always thus. It IS possible to have one with your H - if he participates. So, motivation of the reluctant spouse is the other critical talent to look for in an MC.

Cirrus,

You said something that I think is key </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to ‘force’ him to accept some basic truths (for I believe he has been unhappy also – and there is evidence of it), however, I continually get the impression that he would choose to gloss it over and resume our previous path; non-confrontational. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You cannot "force" him to accept basic truths, because one they are not basic truths to him, and two he is no more suseptible to force than you are. He will choose to gloss it over as long as he feels he is forced.

You are LBing big time here, and making some disrespectful judgements. Now tell me honestly, didn't my post sort of irritate you? I was making assumptions about you and your H, and they weren't all correct were they? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You felt like I was attacking you didn't you? What did you do? You defended yourself, used the old "yes...but", explained yourself to me. But, you didn't agree with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now consider your H. He is losing his W. He is being told it is his fault, that he failed, that he didn't really love you, and further that he doesn't see the "basic truths". Do you think that is going to get him to work WITH you? I don't.

I think what you need to understand is that most people and men in particular like team sports. They like to help other people, they like to be valued for their efforts.

There is nothing in your comments that would suggest that your conversation conveyed any of those messages to your H.

What I am suggesting is that you need to polish up your communication skills. You need to be a bit more empathetic toward your H's place, thus helping you communicate with him. You need to get him helping YOU solve YOUR issues, so that you are happy and he is happy. Cirrus, this needs to be a win-win situation and it can be. But, it takes skill and cunning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> on your part. The upshot is you may find that you did indeed choose the right man after all.

He just needed a bit of polishing up, opening up,and permission to be like you want him to be. Most people like to be loved and appreciated, even you do, right? But, the trick is to learn to do it productively. Hence Harley's concepts of needs. He feels that many times the spouse is trying to meet needs but is meeting the wrong ones, hence the feelings of neglect on the part of their partner,a nd the feeling of frustration on the part of the person trying.

My bet your H has been trying in his own way. It just was misguided. Cut him some slack and assume he was trying but missed the target. The explain to him about the targets or have him read HNHN by Harley. THe language will probably turn him off initially but I suspect he will get the hang of it.

By the way, depression is often caused by chemical changes in the brain, NOT associated with any situational stimuli from the outside. THat is why it can be heriditary. So be so quick to blame your H. OK?

Must go. Hope something I have said is of use.

God Bless,

JL

My apologies, Dying, for imposing upon your thread.

Nothing new really. Still no contact but I did send her Truehearts letter. And a handwritten 4.5 page letter. I don't know if it will help.

I keep snooping and it keeps upsetting me. I don't know about being upset in the hurt way. Lately I have just been getting upset in the angry way.

I really starting to feel it is 100% over.

-Chris

Found out MIL is allowing the OM to sleep there at night. I don't know how often, but it's a sure bet everynight then she stays with him on the weekends.

I want her back more than anything in this world, but I don't know how long I can hang on with hope. Even though she is giving herself to him. I still keep loving her.

I'm just working on myself, been trying to keep myself busy and go to the gym everyday. I want to be there for her when he finally ****s on her, but just don't know how long that will take.

-Chris