LL - below is your post you posted as a reply on F'd up's topic. To get individual help, start a new topic instead of tagging onto an existing topic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also just found out about what he had been doing... I was completely blind. Never saw it coming. A month ago he said he wanted to leave.. Says it has been to many years of neglect and constant fighting. Doesn't love me anymore. He had enough. Now I find that he has been with this woman for 8 weeks. And the way I found this out is by reading their emails to each other. 87 of them. narrating every detail of their encounters as if this was a great romance that should be immortalized. I am still in total shock. He knows that I have seen it and now we are communicating, talking for hours over the phone and through the computer (he is out of the country for business). He seems sorry that I found out this way. We had started counseling a month ago, and he says he admitted this affair to the counselor. We have not met together with the counselor yet, only individually. What am I to do now.. I want to forgive him and fight to keep our home together. He says he cares for me but that he cares for her also. How do I handle this situation? He has not moved out, but this was his plan. Now I don't know. I have told him that I cannot have him leaving me in limbo waiting for him to change his mind while I know that he will see this woman everyday at work.. What makes it worse for me is that I read everything they said to each other. Everything he said to her. These phrases keep repeating in my mind.. Haven't slept in two days, have not appetite. Three kids at home, daughters 8 and 2 and a little boy 8 months old. Anyone there that could advise me? Or have you been there also? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very typical.

Affairs by "new" Dads - despite already having had children, or maybe because of it - are SO prevalent that we should coin a new "condition": Post-Childbirth Affairs By Scumbags, P-CABS.

LL, you are in a good place. You will find help here.

What have you discussed during the "talking for hours"? Has he tried to explain what was missing in your marriage that was his excuse for the affair? Have you identified any needs of his you were not meeting? In keeping with the P-CABS syndrone, I bet it was related to the demands of a new baby.

The good news for you is that he's participating in counseling. Do not do anything to jeopardize this. Did the counselor keep the fact that he was having an affair from you? Ask him/her. Ask him/her if he/she supports the notion that recovery from affairs is very likely with good guidance and hard work.

Does the other woman (OW) know your H is married and has children - including a newborn? Is she married? What is your H's close family situation? Close to parents? Siblings? Are they geographically close? These questions are intended to judge the potential impact of "outing" the affair if it persists.

Have you read here about Plan A? If not, this is your homework assignment. Read, read, read. Report back what faults you contributed to the poor marital environment that created the fertile ground for an affair to occur.

Also read the link in my sig line below. It sounds like that, at least, your H has admitted the affair. Consider this a bonus. But read everything including the embedded links in that link. Everything else may apply to you, especially the recommendation to seek help for depression. It's very common among betrayed spouses (BS).

Thank you for responding..

Now that everything is out in the open we are finally dealing with the main reason he wanted to leave. He says that he had made that decision before he met her, but that by being with her he now knew that he could make it without me. They work together, he is a director at the company and she is a programmer. He tells me that he pursued the relationship. He is afraid that I will contact the CEO of the company and get her fired. Well, I told him that is what I intended to do. Anyway, he seems very sorry for the way I found out about it. He wanted to tell me himself. He had opportunities to do so before, but he never did.. So I doubt that he would really have the guts to tell me face to face. I find that this was God's way of opening my eyes before it went any further. It seems to me that now he realizes that the charade is over. He has to decide once and for all on what to do. I have told him that I love him, but that I don't trust him. I told him that if he was to stay he would have to quit his job or work from home. He actually made a mention of working from home as soon as possible; because I told him I would not tolerate this behavior anymore. You see, he is not a bad person. He has just screwed up in a major way... We had problems communicating since our first daughter was born, never worked on our relationship and jsut drifted apart. After I had the second and third child it just became unbearable, with him working all the time and me taking care of my kids alone. The only way we talked to each other was by yelling or being sarcastic.. Mostly me. He just withdrew. He adores his kids. That I can't deny. And now that we have a little boy he goes and pulls this stunt. When I was chatting with him just a few minutes ago he seemed upset, because I kept telling him how our baby is trying to crawl, and is sitting up by himself, and how much fun the baby has with my brother... He hasn't been around to see all this... So I think he was sort of jeaulous.

Here is a part of our chat this evening:
HE says:
let me ask you this...to whatever extent....and this will hurt, I am sorry...BUT, if I stayed, but my part of how I felt about the stranger didn't go away, wouldn't that be betraying you everyday?
SHE says:
Would you still be with her or would it be the feeling only?
HE says:
feeling only...I would dedicate to you...
I respect that
SHE says:
Would you dedicated to trying to work in our marriage and building a whole new relationship?
HE says:
if I made that decision, yes its possible I would
SHE says:
Then I would accept it. Because I have no doubt that your feelings for her would go away once we connected again. I am not kidding myself, I know it will take time, but eventually they would fade. We have ten years. You have 8 weeks

Was this the right way to react? What do you think?

The OW knows he is married and that he has children. She herself is engaged to someone else and broke the new to her fiancee. She lives with her guy.

My family lives here and his family in Boston. They all now know what is going on.

Let me know what you think of it all.

So far, so good.

My reaction in reading about your interaction with him is that you're setting your boundaries, but you may be a bit too demanding. At this stage he is not humble enough to be self critical and if he feels like you're trying to control him or dictate his actions, he will get defensive and find reasons to think OW is the right choice.

In your conversations have you admitted your faults and pledged to work on fixing them? This is absolutely necessary for him to feel safe with you. This may be counterintuitive, but you have to validate his feelings, empathize with him. Right now he may see you as the root of all his problems. If you aren't compassionate he will justify his view of you.

How do you know that OW told her fiance? Because your H told you?

No more yelling or sarcasm, OK?

Do you understand Plan A?

Please consider counseling with one of the MB counselors. For your situation being at home this may be convenient and they are the experts on infidelity.

WAT

Well, I know that OW has told her fiancee because it was mentioned in the emails. He is coming home from his business trip on thursday morning, and I got him to take thursday and friday off. He kept saying he HAD to be at work, and I kept my resolve, and said that I would not have him go there and see her before we dealt with what had just happened. He requested his boss for the time of and they were happy to give him. We will meet with our counselor on thursday afternoon together for the first time. I met with the counselor alone today, and finally we were able to talk clearly about the whole situation. He said that it is time to confront my husband with the realities of what will happen if he leaves. Get him to see the consequences of his actions. And give him teh choice to deal with our problems or go the other way. I am tired of this emotional rollercoaster. He never really commmited to the work in the sessions, he was going more to deal with his own issues apparently. This will happen on Thursday. I am very anxious about it all.

What do I do now? How should I act with him this weekend? How should I greet him when this will be the first time we see each other since I know the truth? I am scared of the outcome... I am scared that he won't commit to working in our marriage. Isn't it silly that after all this I am the one who is scared to death of loosing him?

I have admitted my faults and my responsibilities for our marital problems. But he just seems to not care... Then we talk and I get a glimmer of hope. Am I being foolish? Should I consider it a plus that he will be home after his trip?
I will read about plan A .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lost_lonely:
<strong> How should I greet him when this will be the first time we see each other since I know the truth?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is vital that you greet him this way: Give him a big hug, tell him you love him, and tell him you're committed to making a better marriage.

DO NOT be confrontational, accusing, needy, or whiney. Why? Would YOU like to be greeted this way?

When you understand Plan A and the concept of the love bank and love busters, these answers will be obvious.

Before you do anything else, study about Plan A. In a nutshell, it's an introspective look at yourself where you identify your problems, address them, and demonstrate your fixes to your husband. While doing this, you eliminate lovebusters (LBs) by stopping angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, threats, ultimatums, etc. IT DOSEN'T MATTER if what you do SHOULDN'T be lovebusters to him or SHOULDN'T make him offended after what he's done. Do you wanna be right or do you wanna be married? Understand? All of this is designed to attract him back to you - you can't force him back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I know that OW has told her fiancee because it was mentioned in the emails. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you believe this?

One of the basic certainties of affairs is that the affairees lie to each other as much if not more than they do to their spouses.

If OW told your H that she's told her fiance about the affair, I don't believe it. Why would she? Because she's honest and honorable? HA!!!

The reason this is an important topic is because you may soon need to communicate with her fiance yourself in order to reveal the affair to him which can be motivation for OW to end it, not to mention that he deserves to know.

Once again, be very careful with how much you "demand" from your H. You cannot make him end the affair. He has to do it. You cannot "make" him do anything and expect him to really understand his mistakes. Talk to your counselor about this.

WAT

Well, I just spoke to her fiancee, and yes, he knows. He says she is moving out of their place at the end of their lease, and I know that she is looking for a place to stay. She had emails of people who were looking for a roomate.

We had started counseling because he told me that he wanted to separate/divorce. He said the reason was that he didn't love me anymore. We pretty much did all of the love busters to each other for along time, we knew that we were hanging on pretty much for the kids. I knew that we were in trouble, but it seemed that he was just so involved in his work and never having time even to go counseling or our pastor. We sort of got accustomed to the way things were. When we started counseling he was already having an affair with her; they started it in the middle of January and so it is pretty new and exciting , right? They are so involved in their feelings that didn't even care about the consequences. I guess he rationalizes it as : I don't love her anymore. I am not hurting anyone. Now he feels bad that he hurt me by the way I found it out, but still I don't know if he is sorry for having betrayed me.
So, I write all of these to say: When he has told me that he doesn't love me anymore; when I know that he was planning to leave; when I know the feelings he has for her; how can I go and hug him when he gets out of the plane? Won't I just be hurting myself again? I was doing everything to make our home a peaceful place for him; had removed the "love busters" interactions; and he still went to her and was seeing her throughout that time as well. Yes I want to be married, but I don't want to be married to this man whom I don't know anymore.

Here is a piece of one of his emails to her where he speaks of me about 10 days ago (they write to each other in this narrative manner; like telling a story):
" He spoke with her, and she said, politely: "Be careful, sweetheart. I
want you back intact. Please call me or email me when you return, so I know you are safe."
She sounded so sweet, as she tried her best to regain his trust. He knew she wanted to succeed, but it was only a matter of time, before she
realized it was truly over. No overtime left. "

Do you see what I mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lost_lonely:
<strong>Do you see what I mean?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I see exactly what's going on and it is very, very, very, very typical of what you can read about here every day of the year from many others.

Don't believe a word of what you've read in those e-mails. It's fog talk, psycho babble, affair-speak, whatever you want to call it. Blah, blah, blah. EVERY BS on this forum has heard it. Let me guess - he's told you, "I love you but I'm not IN LOVE with you." Am I right?

He's following the script perfectly. They (WSs) all say the same things - even the ones who recover their marriages. THEN they say, "What the heck was I thinking?"

LL, I promise you that there's nothing unusual in your situation. Don't give up. Don't believe his fog talk. You have an excellent chance to get out of this and make a much better marriage.

WAT

I am so thankful for your input in this situation. It's good to have someone to talk to. He has said to me that he "cares for me, but doesn't love me..."
We are meeting with our counselor tomorrow afternoon where the issue will finally be tackled between us. I just emailed our counselor giving him the paramethers of what I wanted to accomplish with my husband. To be able to forgive him. To have him committ to working in our marriage. And to have him end the affair if he chooses to commit to our marriage.
I will pray that I can go to him and receive him in love tomorrow. Every time I tried before he just said that I wasn't loving before, why only now that he wanted out. All he says to me now is that he is "sorry for causing me this pain". At least he is sorry for something...
I have to confess that right now that is a great test of my pride. To do that knowing that he would rather be with her. God is dealing with me in this situation, so I guess when we ask God to "break us and mold us" we forget about the pain we may feel...
Thanks for caring.

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: lost_lonely ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lost_lonely:
<strong>I will pray that I can go to him and receive him in love tomorrow. Every time I tried before he just said that I wasn't loving before, why only now that he wanted out.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The next time he asks you this, answer this way: "Before all this happened I didn't realize that I was not being the complete wife you deserved and I was not meeting your emotional needs. Now I understand and I know what to do. Please help me understand your needs and I'll help you understand mine."

Let me make sure you understand one very important point: Despite whatever wifely shortcomings you may have had, you DID NOT cause his affair. That was 100% his decision. So the answer I suggest above is not an admission of your guilt for having "caused" the affair. It's a recognition that the failure in the marriage of having needs met is shared between you both. Understand?

WAT

I just chatted with him on the computer... I am in the proess of printing all of their emails in order to have for legal purposes should I need it. I can't help but read them and I see how much he has involved his heart with her. I am falling apart right now... my heart is so broken. He tells me that he will make a decision this weekend to stay or to leave, and that he jsut doesn't know right now. Tells me he loves his children and that he likes her... Tells me he doesn't know if he will stay here or leave the next day... I am so afraid of what will happen... I wanted some assurance but I can't get any. Sh elives in teh same city as we do, what if me and my kids encounter them together? What will I do?

I feel like I am drowning right now...

LL

I admire your strength and intelligence. WAT is right. There's nothing particularly "new" in what you've told us about your H's A, and believe me, coming from me, that's saying something. My W's A was 11 years old when I found out last year! For MONTHS, I agreed with her that our situation was different from ones I read about on this forum, but it's not at all. EVERYTHING they say should be published in a 500-page script. That way, future WSs could save considerable time thinking the quotes up for themselves. ...wait a minute, there probably IS a published script! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Having said that, I will confess that the email dialog you quoted is something *I* haven't seen before. This "narrative" thing? Weird. On the other hand, it's a lot better than reading graphic descriptions of sexual encounters from my W to a total stranger, knowing my W has NEVER talked like that to me in all of our 27 years of M! That took a lot to get past, but it was possible because it is so typical of WSs, and doesn't "mean anything" in reality (and often alarms themselves when they come out of the fog and realize what they did!).

I agree, though, that the best thing for you to do right now is to be as loving and understanding as you possibly can. Keep the OW out of the conversation entirely, if possible, perhaps with the exception of the counseling sessions. This is still very new for BOTH of you, and so you're emotions are very tender right now, and will be for some time to come. Remember also, that most experts say it takes 2-5 YEARS to recover from an A. At this point in time, it might sound impossible to you, as it did to me for several months after D-day. But I found, as will you, that with time you will slowly realize that you've not only survived another month, you're getting stronger and the triggers that hurt so much now will lose their power over you.

All my best,
♥Qfwfq

Well, he is on his way back home, plane will lend tomorrow at 6 am. He admited to me that he knows that if he works in the marriage we can make it through; but also said that he "likes her". He says he can't promise me that he will stay here or come home and then leave for good the next day; which happens to be my btday <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . So it is up to faith at this moment. I hate not knowing, not being in control of situations. It eats me inside. I will do everything possible to be nice and understanding, not mention her name as I asked him not to mention or contact her while he is with us during this weekend. He has taken the next two days of work, then we have the weekend. Please pray for me. I need strenght and wisdom to get through these first hours and not ruin everything. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

W/ 34
H/ 30
Kids D 8, D 2, S 8 mon
Married 8/93
D day 4/5/03
OW 27 /coworker/unmarried

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: lost_lonely ]</small>

Well he is home and I really tried beeing the loving and "I am happy you are home.." person at the airport, but all I could manage was a small kiss on the cheek. On the way home I had to talk about the OW, I had to know. We had a 45 minute drive that was filled with questions and sadness. We got home and I did finally hug him and told him I was glad he was home, but I cried also.. I acknowledged my part in not meeting his emotional needs and I said that I would do everything possible to fill that void in his life. He is sorry for the pain I am in. One thing that I talked to him about was the fact that when we first got together we had the same fire and could not get away from each other... he was as romantic as he is being with her. We acknowledged that we are both at fault for not nurturing that... and that it got lost very early in our relationship. I asked "What makes you think that the same thing won't happen with her when routine sets in?" He said "I know". He said that he won't contact her at all this weekend. He has said he will allow me into all of his accounts when he needs to check on his work emails. He will not leave the house without one of the kids (exercise and hair cut). So I think at least he is sorry for hurting me... Is this a new beginning? I plan to be nice to him the rest of the day, I have spoken to him in love so far, not yelling or being mean, but being truthfull. I hope I am on the right track with him... I have also decided to deal with my pain only during our counseling sessions, that would be a safe zone for this to be dealt with..

Thanks for listening...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lost_lonely:
<strong>Is this a new beginning?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you're doing very well and you're on the right track. Try your best to stay off the OW topic. This is not about her. Your H's offers to stay away from her are significant and puts him much further along in the process than, say, WSs who won't even admit there's an affair. But be prepared for relapses. In fact, expect relapses. Think of your H as a drug addict who, despite knowing what he HAS to do, can easily slip back off the wagon.

I encourage you to read around the forum and see how others are handling their situations and specific events. You can learn a lot to apply in your situation.

If you haven't done so already, order the books, Surviving An Affair and His Needs/Her Needs by Harley. They're available in online bookstores and via the bookstore section of this site. While waiting for them, find the Emotional Needs questionaire

Please consider an individual counseling session with one of the MB counselors - even as you continue to work with your local counselor. The MB folks are the experts on infidelity. Your counselor is likely one who covers all issues, and may not have expertise in infidelity, or may take the neutral approach that he/she will help you prepare for divorce rather than an active approach to recover your marriage.

WAT

After a long day of frank conversations and our meeting with our counselor he decided to commit to our marriage. He will brake it off with her, will be working on the letter to be sent to her with the counselor. Says he is not staying for the kids, he staying because he wants to have a happy marriage with me. We both acknowledge that it will take time, and healing, and that there is a lot of work to be done, and with God's help we will do it. Now the real work begins! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Terrific!!!

And my admiration to you for recognizing that now the real work begins.

Do not abandon this site - in fact, when it feels right, introduce your H to it. He will have struggles that others here can help him with.

At the risk of bursting your bubble, do not relax. Keep reading here, order the books, and keep you eyes and ears open. Keep looking for your opportunities for improvement and continue Plan A.

Good luck and give updates.

WAT

I understand what you mean. He still has to deal with the "break up" part and the withdrawal symptoms and all. I know he has an emotional attachment to her, and I know to keep my eyes and ears open. He has to be in the office on monday, and he says that I can come for lunch everyday and drive him to work if I choose. His boss already knows of the situation and he sent an email to his boss requesting to meet with him to discuss about working from home... He blocked her emails and instant message from reaching him. He wants to change his cell phone number. It really looks like he is trying to separate himself from any temptation.... So I will keep working and watching... We did have a good night and morning together... So it is a plus... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />