My D-Day was about a week ago. This is the fourth time in 24 years. 15 years ago she had A and filed for divorce. I stayed steadfast and commited to her doing all the things I should not have. Being weak, crying, pleading for her to stay etc. I truely loved her, bordering on co-dependency I think. We thought of the kids and reconsiled.

Over the next 15 years we've had ups and down, both financially and emotionally. We are both kinds of wimps, never confronting each other, hold each other accountable. I was content to do my thing, work etc, while she was being shut out emotionally. She says I did not include her in my life. True to an extent.

Now WS has been asked to leave the home and start a separation. She asked then what? I said I did not know, maybe end the business. She did not respond. Later I got a letter that says she will not do anything to take the business or the home from me. At first WS asked to stay downstairs out of my way. I said it would only work if she cut off OM. She did not really reply which I took as a no. I also told her that I wanted OM's wife to know about the A. I would not tell OM's wife but I think OM should. She told him so.

She is now looking for a place to live with about a week to do so. We own a business together that would fail if either one of us left it. She said she will stay on in the business so it remains sucessful. This is extremely hard to do, but I have no choice. We never fight or scream at each other (except on D-Day) so doing business might work.

I read Plan A Plan B briefly. I am trying to keep myself from imploding and keep a business together with 10 employees. They do not know yet. I cannot say yet that I want to do much of anything to save the marriage at this point. Four A's is tuff to take. I am not an angel here and have hurt her. But I've been faithful and commited and love her for what it's worth.

She has not given any indication that she wants to save the marriage either and I don't ask. I will not start a divorce. I am waiting to see what she wants. She says she is confused, has no feelings for the situation or me. She has said that she has been bad and stays out of my way to an extraordinary extent.

I am now in a house with 3 dogs, 2 sick cats, a ton of house plants I don't know how to water. My son just went back to college and my daughter work for us as a supervisor. We do not pit the kids against each other. We love them dearly and they are good healthy stunned kids. I think after 24 years of no fighting they thought we had a perfect marriage. I don't believe in divorce and my daughter knows it. I brought her up in a moral atmosphere where she knows that A's are wrong and destructive. I'm not really sure what she thinks now. I don't want to say "look what your mom did". I just talk about me.

Half of me is thinking I can actually start a new life, learn from my mistakes and terrible treatment of her and move on. Half of me says don't give up. This is why I won't initiate the divorce. That way if the marriage does end it will be of her doing. Her lack of effort to save it. If she came up to me and said, "dear husband, I really messed up and want to repair things, where do we start?" I'd listen at least.

Thanks for reading this.

This d-day is so recent, it is still too soon for making any long term decisions...just yet. Since this is something you've gone through before, you already know that the emotions you are dealing with are normal. You've done it all before. You know that you can rebuild your marriage, but you are uncertain at this time if you are willing to even try, and you're getting no assurance from your W that she might be willing to try.

It sounds as if you are doing the best thing you can for yourself, your W and your children at this stage. I'm glad you've got the support of your children, hopefully they will continue to be supportive on whatever decisions you and your W arrive at during this time of reflection.

May God give you the strength, courage and wisdom as you began this path. Good Luck!

Thanks for the reply, your kind words do help. You said "You know that you can rebuild your marriage". Well I don't know. I think that is what I am tormented over. I can't do it if W does not want to. I don't think the effort is in me after 4 affairs. I think this has been festering within her for such a long time that now it has exploded, this is her way out and I have very much helped the situation by asking her to leave. I think she's releaved actually. Maybe if I got a glimmer of hope from her, anything at all, I could muster up some emotional energy to work on the marriage, but as as long the A continues....?

Hey, I agree completely, one partner can not a marriage make. If your W isn't willing to give up the OM completely and put 100% of her energy and thought into the marriage, then it's not likely to succeed. As you know from your own past, it takes so much hard work and commitment to overcoming a betrayal.

Yes, one partner can hold a marriage together over the short-term, but it can't last forever.

There is no reason on this earth why you must make a decision right now as to what you might be willing to undertake in the future. You may find that you've hit the "dealbreaker" and are no longer willing to put forth the effort to rebuild. Then again, if your W realizes what she is throwing away and really wishes to commit, you might be open to trying once more.

Not all marriages should continue, none deserve betrayals. Some marriages are worth saving and do whatever you can to repair the damage. Can't say which your marriage might be, only you and your W can decide that for yourself and together.

Good Luck!

J: I can tell from your post that you and your wife are conflict avoiders. My wife and I fit that description, too. There are many reasons for affairs, but affairs by conflict avoiders are common enough that there si actually a classification scheme that some therapists use that include one called the "Conflict Avoidance Affair". There is a web site that has a description of each type that I would link you to, but it is under re-construction right now and the link doesn't work. Conflict avoiders tend to have peaceful marriages that look good from the outside, but they can be just dead on the inside.

Despite the fact that there are many types of affairs, Harley claims there is really only one path to recovery, and it was one you did not take with the previous three. Whether it works for everyone is debateable, but it worked GREAT for my wife and I, and our marriage is better now than it ever was before. I admit I supplemented Harley with a few other resources, and the things that were most valuable for me were the things that enhanced our ability to understand each other - mostly writings by other authors on communication. Harley does not make communication a separate subject in the way he discusses things. Mostly it is something you have to learn to do in order to effectively 1) care for each other by meeting needs, 2) avoid destroying love, and 3.) Resolving conflicts. So, for me to be able to do what Harley says we have to do to have a great marriage, I had to really work on communicating well enough to understand my wife's point of view well enough that I could address conflicts between us without getting in a fight or just giving up. I learned the wisdom of Gary Smalley's assertion that "Conflict is the doorway to intimacy".

The path to recovery will not be easy, and it will require you to learn some new skills, but given your beliefs and children and business, it will be far easier than divorce. It is true that you will not be successful in rebuilding your marriage if your wife does not eventually join you. However, you have good chance if you follow the path Harley lays out. To get started, click on the link in my signature line.

You are right that asking her to leave /is not going to/has not/ help(ed) your chances. If there is a way you can reverse that, do so, because it will make Plan A a lot easier. You will still have regular contact at work, so there is still hope if she moves out, but usually it is easier if you are still living together.

Very well said, you have a clarity in your words. Right now it's a challenge to keep busy to keep my mind from going bonkers. I start counseling on Wednesday, I'm sure that will help. How much should I talk to my daughter about this situation? She knows the basic facts and I leave it at that.

My previous post was for just a wifey 2002, sorry I did'nt indicate that. John, thanks so much for your post.

Wow your description of us is unreal. Right on. My feeling is that the destruction is just too great now for reconsiliation. Somehow, I think that by calling it quits it would be another conflict avoidance in itself. I think that's why I would never initiate the divorce but would try to work it out. But like you said it takes two.

I'm not so sure I can reverse her leaving. If she does agree to stay, does the relationship with OM have to end? I'll read Plan A again.

Hello:

You both need to make a committment to the marriage. This is your wife's fourth affair.
If she is not willing to stop the affair and make a committment then you will not succeed. How do you think she would be feeling if she just caught you in your fourth affair and now you refuse to stop your current affair and refuse to committ to the marriage? If she is not willing to committ to counseling, committ to the marriage and stop cheating on you then what is the point? You deserve to have a spouse who loves you and is committed to a monogamous relationship with you.
I think you making the correct decision is making her leave. Otherwise she becomes a cakewoman who enjoys the benefits of a marriage and having a lover on the side. There is no reason for you to accept this disrespect and humiliation. "No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change." I wish you luck.

Hi Bryanp,

Very true about both of making a commitment to the marriage. This is the 4th time, I mean 4 times that I know of in 24 years. Half of me says enough is enough and half of me says stay in the marriage. I think she's out of it clearly. So instead of 100% on both sides, we have 50% on my side. A loosing situation if ever I saw one. If I saw at least 50% on her side I'd see some light. But I can't see it. I don't think I could take her staying here. I mean its torture. Harley advocates taking anti-depresants. I'd have to take a bottle a day and become an addict if she stayed here and kept up with the A.

I need to build some self respect, and I will see her at work. She is cooperating very well doing her share keeping the business going. She realizes it would mean financial ruin for her also if she just left everything. I think she is feeling to guilty in a way to do that also.

Since I am a classic conflict avoider I worry about just avoiding the conflict of my hurting marriage by asking her to leave. But she's finding a place to live as though by my kicking her out of the house she won't actually have to tell me "I'm leaving you, see you kicked me out, another conflict avoided. I'm toast here. I have decided to be nice and civil, however hard. I did let her know as much as my conflict avoidance would let me what I thought of her behavior with not much of a response at all. Probably a mistake but I could'nt help it. What a pathetic way to self gratification and maybe ending a marriage.

<small>[ May 04, 2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Joquin1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that by calling it quits it would be another conflict avoidance in itself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. This is a pattern of behavior that you need to change just to be healthier in ALL your relationships. This is the fourth opportunity you've had to address this issue of personal growth. Isn't it time to deal with it so you don't find yourself in a similar situation in the future?

My wife had three emotional affairs and spent years more emotionally attached to her job than to me before her physical affair finally woke me up. Boy, do I regret not dealing with this years ago.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yep. This is a pattern of behavior that you need to change just to be healthier in ALL your relationships. This is the fourth opportunity you've had to address this issue of personal growth. Isn't it time to deal with it so you don't find yourself in a similar situation in the future?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SO true. I see it everywhere in my life. My business suffers because I avoid conflict with employees and customers. I get walked on. I have no true honest relationships because I avoid them to avoid any conflict. Yuck. Well I'm not going to be the quiter. Let her do all the painful divorce papers if she so chooses. How do I express my opposition to divorce if she's all gung ho? I'm like gee WS you are making a mistake? This is not what I want but I'll cooperate because the law says I have to?

Hi there,

I too so empathize for you. Your wife having 4 affairs already must be so terribly painful and sounds like she is sailing on the same ship of fools that my STBX is onboard.

The advice you have received is so wise and good medicine for the bruised soul. It's so hard to be so torn.

I am wondering about the old clique of our spouses wanting to have their cake and eat it too. This analogy theory does not make real sense or convey the devastation we BS feel.

Of course we all know what that saying means but in real life having our cake and eating it too relates to a real life pleasant experince to our senses. Who wouldn't want to eat their cake and it too? Seems perfectly logically. Why do we use this clique?

Affairs are not logical. I too, am saying this to myself in explaining what it is my STBX wants all the time about his wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

Then smack my self on the forehead thinking cake is good, yummy, delicous, edible, pleasure. A heavenly food on earth to delight in. Brain shifts over to my SBTX back and forth is not good for us, me. Then I think where on earth did we as a society pick that one up. It then occured to I bet it was some WS throughout the centuries that came up with it loved their forbidden fruit jams experinces and were getting away quite happily with their marriage life and affairs.

When I feel, think of the word affairs, repeated affairs, serial affairs. My mind shifts immediately to words emotions, like poision, yucky, awful, sickening, pukey,barfy, horrible, gross, horror, toxic, caustic, nausea, gripa, stupid, distasteful,vile, nefarious, wicked, offensive, distressing, putrid, curdling.

I wonder with the awesome think tanks on board MB if we could come up with a better more precise, consise analogy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Is more fair to say that WS are simply "MAD" or "RABID" which explains it all.

Cake is nice, marriage is good, committed romance is supremely divinely delicious. Hi fidelty is awesome--low fidelty is blah...

One thing I'm still wondering. When I told WS to find another place to live, she put up a mild protest but has since been cooperating. If she wanted to stay at all would'nt she mention the possibility of staying again? It seems like I just gave her an excuse to leave. Like "You told me to go so I'm going". Now I'm the bad guy.

Talking to kids: Depends on their age! It seems that your daughter knows enough of the situation right now. She does NOT need to know any details, if she's old enough you can be honest about how YOU feel and what you think, but don't try to give your opinion on what her mom is thinking or feeling. Adult children can be a great source of support...IF...they stay on the sidelines and are not either dragged in or jumping into the middle.

Many a WS never takes into consideration the betrayal that their children will suffer. So you may need to be there for your daughter. Validate her feelings of anger and sorrow, but make it clear that the marriage is between ONLY you and her mom. That the relationship she has now and will have in the future with her mom or with you is going to be equally up to her to work through. I'm sure that she is loved by both you and her mom, you need to be careful that you don't say anything negative about her mom.

IF daughter asks you a question...answer honestly but with kindness. If it's too personal...tell her so and don't answer. You do NOT owe her an explaination of everything.

I just told her the basics. That mom was a WS and that I could not put up with it. No condemnation just the fact. And crying. I'm sure she was shocked a bit but doesn't ask any questions. It would be nice to know that she at least thinks "gee mom, what the hell are you doing?" But I can't find a way to ask her without setting up WS as the baddy even though that is what she is.

Today, WS took our son to college. She said she'd be visiting sister-in-law until alittle late, then be back as to give me my space. Of course I can't trust her a bit. How do I block this out of my mind?

Dr Harley advises to expose the A to the light of day because it helps to expose the dishonesty of the WS and OP's behavior not only to others but to themselves. But (there is always at least one, isn't there?) how you go about exposing the A is of utmost importance. If you do so in an angry fashion with the intent of trying to hurt her and her OP, then you are 'justifying' her decision for having the A. But if the exposure is done in a calm and collective manner, then the people closest to you will most likely rally over to your side and give you the emotional support you need, while marginizing her at the same time. Keep in mind though that no matter how you expose the A, your WW will be angry with you and it has to do because no matter how many justifications she has for having her A's, deep down she knows that she did a terrible wrong not just to you but your children as well.

Since you are here I assume that you ultimately want to save your marriage and because of this I would advise you call the Harley's for telephone consultation. They are MUCH cheaper than a divorce lawyer you know.

<small>[ May 04, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Received a note from WS basically thanking me for being nice to her lately. She also said that over the years she would invite people to diinner, have parties & a normal social life. I withdrew from that, was a loner. Now she says she doesn't want to stay with a man that has "no life". I can see her point. I've got a lot of work to do just for myself. Don't really have a clue what WS is going to do.