I have been reading this forum and relate to so many. My H started personal training OW at gym in Nov. She owns a cafe not to far from home. In Feb. I started getting suspisious. He even took my 3 kids to her cafe. Feb. 19 he took her with himself and my kids(7,6 and 3) to a martial arts tournament while I was at home preparing to have company for dinner that evening. He tried to tell me it was my daughters idea. She told me otherwise of course. Feelings of suspision grew. Mar. 5 I confronted him before I went to work. Told him I knew about the A and when I got home we would talk and no more lies. He looked really guilty. When I got home he seemed mad. I seen on the call display I hid that she had called 4 times. He denied. Told me he hadn't talked to her. I left the house and was having major anxiety attacks. Mar. 7 I confronted her and of course she denied. The next day she gave my H a very condescending letter to give me about my accusations and insecurities. Mar. 15 I told him he had to chose her or me and the kids then and there. He admitted. Said it had been going on 1 month and they had been together 3 times. I cried and he cried and he said he loved me. I told him he could not go to the gym anymore and he needed to be home more.
He called her the next day from work and told her I knew and that we were working on our marriage.
He has been more attentive to our family than he has been in a long time. He tells me he loves me a dozen times a day. Our relationship is much better.
However I still feel at times like this volcano is rumbling inside me. I erupted once a couple of days after D-day and called her on the phone. I said "did you have fun f-----g my husband. She hung up on me and called my H at work. He called me and and said I didn't care about her feelings or his, what about mine. I would have told her H if he had answered the phone.
I still feel like I don't know the whole truth. Beyond confessing I have done all the talking. If I bring it up he says talking about it just makes it worse.
Last week he took my two older kids to the store near her cafe and went in to buy a coffee. I know because I ask my daughter. I said "aren't you afraid to run into her?" (she wasn't there) He said "no I am not". I told him he should not be anywhere near there.
I don't know how I feel about this. This is where I stand now.
I am not the type to yell and scream and get mad , I actually may be too passive a person.

Hi prayingmantis,

I do feel for your situation. My D-days were 1982, 83, 88 and 4/28/03. I'm not sure where I am going with this relationship. Clearly it has major problems. As much as I hate her behavior and the broken vows, I do look at myself in the mirror and ask why I've failed to provide the intimacy she needs. It's not always one sided. Have you asked yourself this question? I'm not excusing or justiying his actions. Make sure you know what his needs are so he gets them fulfilled from you and not anyone else.

<small>[ May 06, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Joquin1 ]</small>

Thank you for your reply.
I am sure his needs were not being met. He however was rarely ever home. Between work and his training at the gym and his martial arts I rarely seen him. I began to resent the life he was having and instead of telling him my feelings I pushed him away farther.
We were still intimate but not as often as he would have liked. Hard to do that though when he was not around. I should have been the one who felt the need to have an affair. My life consisted of my part time job, the house, and my kids. Excersicing at home had to be good enough for me. I lost the sense of who I was as a person.

Thank you for your reply.
I am sure his needs were not being met. He however was rarely ever home. Between work and his training at the gym and his martial arts I rarely seen him. I began to resent the life he was having and instead of telling him my feelings I pushed him away farther.
We were still intimate but not as often as he would have liked. Hard to do that though when he was not around. I should have been the one who felt the need to have an affair. My life consisted of my part time job, the house, and my kids. Excersicing at home had to be good enough for me. I lost the sense of who I was as a person.

Put some thought into why he is always gone. Sounds like he is putting work and the gym above your needs. Why? You said you were still intimate but not as often as you'd like because he was away. I was reffering to emotional intimacy not sexual intimacy. He does'nt have to be around for you to be emotionally intimate. It's the one thing I never was able to give my WS and look what I got, she went out and got it somewhere else.

I understand what you are saying however we always had a very close relationship. We talked alot and shared the same interests. We enjoyed each others company, having coffee and breakfast together, rollerblading etc.
He's the one that pulled away. I was left at home to take care of everything with only one car between us.
I got my mother to watch the kids for me in Nov. one weekend so we could have a nice weekend together but he had to leave town because his grandmother was ill. So I rebooked for another weekend and that weekend his grandmother died and he left town for the funeral. My mom had surgery after that and couldn't take my kids for a couple of months. It was circumstance not my lack of trying. My mom had the kids the night he admitted it because days before I had to come home from work to take H to hospital. Thought he had a stroke but it was actually stress that caused a severe muscle spasm.
Believe me I have always been here for him and my family, supported him through good times and bad. I have always stood behind him and like I said I am not an arguementative person. I avoid conflict like the plague.

PM: I could have written that last post of yours, although the details are different. According to marriage researcher John Gottman, conflict avoidance is the #1 cause of divorce. Not knowing that, I kind of skipped over all the parts in the marriage books about how to resolve conflicts, since we "didn't have any". I also had the problem that my instincts in a conflict were very destructive (yelling, belittling, etc.) and I recognized that, so it gave me further reasons to avoid conflict.

A big part of my recovery has been to learn how to resolve problems and express my feelings constructively, not destructively. Harley's writings on the Policy of Joint Agreeement and on avoiding Love Busters were helpful, as was learning to use "I feel" statements when I was upset.

Double post

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Thanks for your reply John39. It's true I am a conflict avoider and I am now realizing how destructive it can be. I always assumed that avoiding conflict would keep everyone happy. However the more I gave the more he took and look were we ended up. I know now that it is okay to disagree with him or to say no when I don't want him to go somewhere, or insisted on him being home when I need his help. After all a marriage is supposed to be a partnership. Its not suppossed to be one sided or the boat will tip.
Even knowing all this I still avoid conflict for fear he'll get upset after all there is OW still out there. What if he turns to her.
After finding out that he took my kids to her cafe last week(she wasn't there thank goodness) I told him that he should not be around there but still never really expressed how angry I was about this. Was he hoping to see just to see how he would feel. Maybe he had the kids with him to protect himself from his feelings. Should I say more to him about it.

After I found out my H had been cybering with a few females last Summer I was hurt and angry and felt like he had cheated on me. We worked it out, or so I thought. He never came quite clean, never wanted to tell me the details, thought it would hurt me.

This past Spring he began dating a woman he met. I found out again and that has ended and we are now beginning to really work on our M.

I can't get the thought out of my head that if he was truly honest about the cybering that he wouoldn't have cheated this past year. He said it was harder to admit to me the details of the cybering than it was his dates because he was more ashamed of the on-line chats.

He has explained quite a bit, but not all at once. I usually have to give him a hug and let him know how much I hurt, and then ask a very specific question, like what kind of cologne she wore, or where they went. I take all emotion out of my voice. I have also talked with him about the fact I will not get mad if he tells me things (or at least I won't yell and scream) and will leave the room if it becomes too much. A little at a time...

Thanks StillHereMakingIt.
How much should we know? I ask questions in my own head all the time but should I be asking them or should I let it go. He really is trying hard but can't stop thinking there is that possibility that they are still comunicating. How do I know for sure. And why did he take my kids to her cafe last week. Why is he not afraid to see her. Is it possible that this A ended so easily? When I confronted her at her cafe a couple of weeks after d-day she had a real so I screwed your H get over it attitude. She told me it had nothing to do with her anymore to go talk to my H about it. She's lucky I havn't told her H.

H is now 2 hours late home from work and I'm getting a little anxious. No answer at the office. I know he was supposed to go out of town(1 hour away) with his boss but I didn't expect it to go beyond office hours. No phone call at all since he left this morning. This is the part where my trust takes a real step backwards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by prayingmantis:
<strong> He called me and and said I didn't care about her feelings or his, what about mine. I would have told her H if he had answered the phone.
I actually may be too passive a person.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excuse me? You don't care about his feelings?? What about YOUR feelings - have him answer that: when he STOMPED all over your feelings by having a fling with that bimbo! He needs to wake up to REALITY and start thinking about your feelings, his feelings regarding YOU TWO, and no contact with Ms. Bimbo. He's starting that FOG TALK on you and showing just how selfish he still is. I sincerely hope and pray you get into Marriage Counseling.
Just MHO.
Harold

I'm sorry for the confusion. That was a typo. I was the one who said those things.That was actually the only time I ever lost it and totally erupted on him and her. I made a comment to him on the phone about "getting is somewhere else" and he hung up on me. The rumbling inside erupted at that point. I called her, she called him and he called me.
Like I said he seems to be trying hard but my problem at this point is why he went into her cafe last week.
When he was late getting home last night I made it clear to him that he needs to keep me informed of where he is out of respect to me. Turns out his business trip did run late but when I'm sitting at home waiting other things start to run around my head.

I'm sorry for the confusion. That was a typo. I was the one who said those things.That was actually the only time I ever lost it and totally erupted on him and her. I made a comment to him on the phone about "getting is somewhere else" and he hung up on me. The rumbling inside erupted at that point. I called her, she called him and he called me.
Like I said he seems to be trying hard but my problem at this point is why he went into her cafe last week.
When he was late getting home last night I made it clear to him that he needs to keep me informed of where he is out of respect to me. Turns out his business trip did run late but when I'm sitting at home waiting other things start to run around my head.

Trust is something for me that has never returned fully (nor should it). I have talked with my husband about some things that will make me anxious. For instance, when he wants to go out with a mutual friend of ours that he used as an alibi. This will be a trigger and I will question the whole night whether he's really out somewhere else.

I think you deserve the answer to any questions you have. If you can convince your H it would be more helpful than hurtful to tell the truth.

Have you read about the concept of No Contact? Which means the WS promises there will be no contact with the OP (which includes emails, phone calls, drive bys, being where they hope to run into them).

Has he done much reading? Have you led him to this site? Have you encouraged him to post on this site?

It took my H and I to do some real soul-searching and honest talking to explore what was wrong in our marriage that made an A possible. We have started working on that. I am a bit ashamed to say I was a big problem in the unhappiness in our marriage (I'm a complainer).

We seemed to get over the A pretty quickly and I still struggle that maybe we have recovered too quickly. We seemed to get over his cybering last year too quickly too. But this time it is different and we are changing the way we are married (for the better). My instinct tells me this is a real change. Follow your instinct.

PM, Have you read the link in my signature line? Please do so. There is a lot there that will help you on the road to recovery. I disagree that you have a right to insist on certan things from him. You have no right to insist on ANYTHING from him. You have the right to negotiate for whatever you want. Those last two sentences probably seem just plain wrong to you right now. Read through the link in my sig line (and all the links therein, and order and read "Surviving an Affair", at least), and read what Harley writes about the Poicy of Joint Agreement about three times, and see if it makes more sense. One thing I think you should negotiate for is an end to ALL CONTACT with the other woman by him. Without that, I would not agree to stay married to him, if I was in your shoes.

Hi John and PM,

I disagree that you have a right to insist on certan things from him. You have no right to insist on ANYTHING from him…. One thing I think you should negotiate for is an end to ALL CONTACT with the other woman by him. Without that, I would not agree to stay married to him, if I was in your shoes.

John, I think she has the right to insist that he have no contact with the OW. Maybe that’s negotiated. But certainly the “deal” behind accepting a WS back into the marriage is a commitment from him to have zero contact with the OW. (To not put the BS through the hurt and misery associated with that. I don’t think anyone should have to negotiate with a spouse to end this Love Buster). That needs to be explicit. There also needs to be a no-contact letter.

Your marriage cannot recovery – you cannot get a real start on being a couple again – if there is any contact. In our own situation, Jennifer recommended that there be no contact of any type, not even just seeing OP across the parking lot at a sporting event. Because that would be enough to bring OP back into her thoughts, etc., and that would inhibit recovery. So there are a lot of events we cannot attend now on the off chance that OM might be there. PM, your husband cannot have casual contact with OW – even if he says it is over. And neither can you. If you want to heal, you need to not call her anymore either. From my experience, I didn’t see or contact OM for over a year since D-day, and then saw him at a sporting event. It raised a lot of rage and resentment, and rememberance of the hurt.

If you haven’t done so, purchase Surviving An Affair immediately. Even if you are in Harley coaching, they will insist you read this. In the back is a Recovery Agreement. It states there will be no contact, that both of you will follows the Four Rules (if you don’t know them, you need to read the book), and that you are both committed to recovery, Open and Honest, and being experts at meeting each others EN’s, etc. In hindsight, if a WS is not willing to commit to these, then very soon it will be time for Plan B.

Gotta run,

P

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But certainly the “deal” behind accepting a WS back into the marriage is a commitment from him to have zero contact with the OW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would call that negotiation. In return for his ending contact with the OW, she agrees to stay in the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong>I would call that negotiation. In return for his ending contact with the OW, she agrees to stay in the marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh darn. And I thought I had found something that we disagree on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

PM, please order Surviving an Affair and read it. I think you will find a lot of answers to your questions in it, as well as validation of some of the feelings you are having, and insight into his as well. The other thing though is that no-contact has to be the Rule. Your husband can't begin the emotional separation and withdrawal until she's out of his sight. Dropping by casually, "oh, she's looking very nice today", all stirs up memories that are going to inhibit recovery.

Finally, one of my wife's confessions was that she knew the affair was wrong. She tried to end it several times - for at least the last year just committed to being "friends." That didn't work either, as they were drawn into much deeper emotional and physical relationship on occassions anyway.

P