I had just started my plan A after W told me she no longer loved me and wanted a divorce. She said there was no OM and she didn't want to ever be in love with anyone again, she just wanted a companion someday. No marriage no living together just best friend with occasional sex.

<small>[ May 12, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: cem ]</small>

Sorry about that. I must have hit a wrong button.
Anyhow, my question is. I have since verified that there is an OM. I listened in for a short time on a phone call with him. Do I confront her with this or continue with my plan A? Also they work together on a different shift from me. hould I get a job in the same plant,in the same area? She does not want me to do that but I can get hired there easily.

CEM,

Welcome to MB. I know this is a tough time for you.

Have you read the basic concepts? Dr. Harley has written some very good books. Surviving an affair and this website kept me sane.

Thanks Sue. It is hard, we have been married 13yrs and have 4 kids. 15,13,12,11. 2 boys then 2 girls. At least she didn't move out. Befroe I read basic concepts and plan a/b I pushed her into staying in the same b/r ,for the kids sake and to go to counseling. She did go once but she won't go again. I won't even ask her again because it just makes her mad. Also I work from 8am - 8pm and she works 4pm till 1am so im asleep when she gets off work. of course most nights she doesn't come straight home anyhow.I do get to take a 2 hr lunch and have been spending it with her but OM gets more time than that. Thats why I was wondering if I should get a job where she works, on the same shift ,in either the same department or different.

<small>[ May 12, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: cem ]</small>

I really don't know if changing jobs will help or hurt. What if it does not work out, you are now at a job where they both work. Do you really want to subject yourself to that.

Affairs have to die a natural death. Affairs are not real relationships. They are based upon fantasy.

Is the OM married? Kids?

Does he really want to take on a ready made family of 4 kids, teenagers at that? Probably not.

You cannot tell this to your W, right now she is in a fog, and will not hear anything you say

According to Dr. Harley, once the Affair is exposed, it does not live long after that.

Before you expose the A, if you decide to do so, I recommend reading the SAA book.

Also, wait until you get more responses from more experienced MB'ers. I've been here a little over a year. I have no experience with Recovery or exposing an A. At this time, for reasons that benefit me, and my family I have chosen to not expose my H's A. I will when the time is right.

If you can afford it, you might try phone counseling with the Harleys. It is expensive, but according to those who have used them, very good.

The OM is 3 times divorced. I guess thats ok with her because she says she doesn't want another marriage. Of course she also said there is no OM.Of couse if she is also telling OM that she doesn't want any commitments then he has nothing to lose right now, i bet hes in heaven.
He has kids but i dont know how many. He is in his 5th month of a 6 month live in recovery center for alcohol and cocaine. She probably believes he can beat it because she had those same problems 16 years ago and overcame them with no relapses at all.Right now the program works for me because it limits the amount of time they can spend together to after work,some times on weekends and,hours and hours of phone conversations.But he gets out next month and the time will be unlimited then. Thats why I'm working so hard on my plan A so that when that happens she will still want to spend at least some time with me so i can continue it.

I can always get my old job back and i feel that i need to be on the same shift so that it is harder for them to have time together without lying to me and in general just making the affair a pain in their butts.

The thing i worry about is that she has said she doesn't want me to come there. However she grudgingly said it would be ok if the counseler said i should. Since she lied at counseling and i didnt have tha affair confirmed he witheld a recommendation on that for the 3 days she said she would think about trying to work things out with me and agreed not to see OM if there was one (She went directly from counseling to his bed,thats part of what i overheard in the phone call). I'm sure he will recommend i go there but he is also recommending to me that i be very agressive in telling her what i want and i know thats the wrong thing to do right now.

Cerri on Plan A is a GREAT link on the subject. Cerri knows more about Harley's approach than anyone else I have met. Re-read Harley's stuff a few times. Consider calling Dr. Harley yourself (between 1:00 and 2:00 pm, CST on Mondays and Thursdays @651-681-8255. Calling a few minutes before 1:00 is usually a good strategy for reducing the time on hold. I think you need to confront her and him with what you know, but not in anger. That is not easy to do. Look underneath the anger to the pain, frustration and fear that cause it, and be honest about that.

<small>[ May 13, 2003, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong>Consider calling Dr. Harley yourself (between 1:00 and 2:00 pm, CST on Mondays and Thursdays @651-681-8255. Calling a few minutes before 1:00 is usually a good strategy for reducing the time on hold.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please note this is a radio call in show. Call in with a question, not in-depth counseling. For that you can call Marraige Builders at 1-888-639-1639.
Marriage Talk Monday and Relationship Talk Thursday
Every Monday and Thursday afternoon at 1:00pm (CST) Dr. Harley is the featured guest on Joyce Harley's (his wife's) radio show, In Focus with Joyce Harley, which is aired from St. Paul, Minnesota on AM980 KKMS. Joyce's daily radio program covers a variety of current topics. Monday's topic is marriage and Thursday's topic is relationships in general (which can include marriage).
Talk with Dr. Harley live! Just call toll free 1-888-332-5169 during the live broadcast every Monday and Thursday from 1:00-2:00pm Central Standard Time.

<small>[ May 14, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Hi CEM! Sorry this is happening to you. If it were me, I would 'bring this to a head' and get the process going. If your wife already is FOG-TALKING you with that BS about not wanting to be married but have a companion, you need to get this thing started - beginning with confronting her in her LIES. Plan A or maybe B should immediately follow - depending on how far gone in the fog she is...
Just MHO.
Harold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cem:
<strong>The OM is 3 times divorced. He has kids but i dont know how many. He is in his 5th month of a 6 month live in recovery center for alcohol and cocaine. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CheeZ what a LOSER! Boy did she bite off a mouthful when she hooked up with him! My friend, your wife is most definitely in the fog!
Harold

I have had 2 sessions with Steve now and WS had 1. She agreed to do the next session together. Steve doesn't want me to expose the A yet, so I'm just doing the best plan/A I can.

I see some waffling on her part.At first she didn't want me to touch her, this morning she let me rub a sore calf muscle for a half hour.

Of course that didn't stop her from going on the planned trip with OM. she left at 1pm and won't be home until noon tomorrow. Supposedly she with a girlfrind but I overheard a phone conversation and know the truth. Still it was a good day just to be able to touch her.

Steve thinks she wants to love me again but is afraid I will go back to my old lovebusting ways so I have a long road to go. It's impossible to prove I won't so I just have to keep showing her everyday I can and will meet her needs if she will let me.

Our session together with Steve is thursday. I can stay strong that long. 1 hr at a time, 1 day at a time, 1 week at a time I will get through to her.

hurting12,
Man, I admire your patience and understanding. I would be out of my mind with rage and jealousy, but what good would that do.

I am sure Steve has a plan. Has he said when you should confront her about OM? And how? Why does he want you to wait?

My FWH also came to me out of the blue wanting a D. He also told me no OW. About two weeks later the you know what hit the fan. I caught him in a big lie, he was not with the boys on a fishing trip but with OW on a city weekend in her Co. apt. She, OW was old college SH. It was like a long prom date for them. And they were planning M, leaving their families, and she was applying BIG pressure on my FWH to leave me. This was a three week A!!! OW was in a bit of a hurry to get my H, huh? That would be H#3 for her.

Well, he was hit with a major 2 x 4 when I found out. He had a four hour drive home the next morning and I got busy catching up via emails as to what had been going on behind my back. FWH was on the way home with orders to clean out his stuff and get the he$$ out. Well, he did. We talked more that day on the phone than we had in a year.

Boy, had we screwed things up. By the end of the day, FWH was crying and wanting to come home. We started MC the next day. One of the conditions for him to return home, in order for us to work on our M, was OW to be GONE. He ended it, came home and we have been working on our M and in recovery ever since.

So, Steve knows what he is doing and has a plan for you. Thank God he and MB are here to help us. Keep posting here, you will learn so much and will never WANT to go back to the M you had before. If your wife wants to work on the M, you can have a better M than you ever dreamed of. You rebuild the new M together.

Prayers and blessing to you hurting12. It can work out. I will look on the in recovery boards for you and hope that you get there soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Heavens

<small>[ May 18, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Heavens ]</small>

Well it was an emotional roller coaster today. She came up very upset. I was hoping he had left her. She wanted to be alone and I let her, she said she had some things to think about.

He called about an hour later and I listened in to a lot of it. They had had a fight. He is pushing her hard to move out and file for D. She doesn't want to move out because of the kids. He kept talking about how much she was hurting him and I was cheering him on "oh yeah keep on making those demands buddy I love it." Then he was complaining about her going bowling with me this past Thur. She lied big time to him, told him we went with my mother brother and a girl she is trying to set my brother up with. (We were alone.)

He began to back off and tell her to do whats best for the kids. Then I almost got caught so I had to get off the line.

Evidently they worked it out because she was better after the call. We played together with the kids and had some time together talking about some things she likes.

Now she is in the bedroom reading erotica to him so I guess we're right back where we started.

No way they can make a go of it with all this lying but my love may be gone before they end it. I know its still early and I'm still strong but I never was a very patient man. If we do start recovery in the future I might let her read this thread because there is no other way she will believe I knew as much as I did and behaved so well.

Well had to vent. maybe I'll write more later. Thanks for the replys MBer's I need them

Hurting12
If it is any encouragement, OW was putting pressure on my FWH big time to leave me. He was not ready for such huge decisions or commitments, but since OW was so quick to jump in the sack, she was working overtime to try and justify it. So, the obvious decision is to break up two M, two families, and plan a new life together.

The funny thing is the my FWH major unhappiness with me was that I was too controlling. Well, he had not met controlling until she came along. Controlling and manipulative. It wore away her "sweet" facade mighty quick. So, when I found out and confronted him on Dday, he was kind of thankful to have all the lies and pressure off his shoulders. It takes its toll. Maybe that is what the wise Dr. Steve is hoping for.

Hang in there. Keep coming here and vent, rage, post, cry. You are in the best hands possible. And MB is here for you too. YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!

Prayers that your wife soon comes to senses. Prayers that God grants you patience and peace.

Heavens

Thanks Heavens.
WS complained about me being controling too. I really had to smile today when I thought how can their relationship possibly work when it is built on lies. Lies both to me and to OM.

WS said today we need to talk about what we would do with the kids if 1 of us finds someone that isn't comfortable with us living in same house. Would we let the courts decide or would we. I told her we could work it out but if We didnt get back together there was no woman telling me I had to leave my kids until I thought they were ready for us to split up. She could just take a flying leap.

Of course that was a small LB but since I "don't know about OM or his pressuring" it might make her think a little bit. Any wedge I can drive without appearing to is good in my book.

If it comes down to 1 of us "having" to leave I will suggest I do because if she is still in the house with the kids I can come over after she goes to work and still meet the EN's Domestic Support and Family Commitment, which are 2 of her top 5.

If she is gone and I have the kids then she won't see it which means to her it didn't happen. Watcha think? Also, I still think she will have some reluctance to bring OM to the house the kids are in while they are here. Time with OM = time away from kids

In the end that is probably the only way we can afford to split right now because I can move in with my brother rent free. She would have to rent a place and there isn't enough money for 2 households. I didn't tell here that I could move in with brother,I said I don't see how we can possibly afford for 1 to move out but she has the control and I would do whatever she decides.

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: hurting12 ]</small>

Just found out this morning they are talking about moving in together. If they do that do I go straight to plan B? Have only been in Plan A for 3 weeks. Also do ya'll think I should take the kids or let them deal with that life problem too?

Hurting,
All I can pass on to you is what our MC told us, that it is hard to work on the M if you are not under the same roof. I would think that you want to try and keep her with you. Once one of you is out, it makes recovery very difficult. But trust me, that is just our opinion. Read everything on this site, plan A, plan B, and apply it to your sitch. Have you bought Surviving an Affair? There are many answers there. Or start a new thread with the title "WW want to move in with OM, what should I do," or something like that so that experienced people can help you here. Better yet, call Dr. Steve. I just think for you to separate is a big step in the wrong direction if you can prevent it.

Heavens

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurting12:
<strong>Also do ya'll think I should take the kids or let them deal with that life problem too?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you want your kids in this environment? Teaching them it is okay to live with someone while married to another?

{{{{hurting12}}}}

I want to share my personal experiences of 'exposing the A'. Dr. Willard Harley (Steve's dad) and SH seem to have much different points of view on exposing the A. Dr. H, founder of Marriage Builders, recommends exposing the A very soon. He takes a hard stand on this.

My W and I were also coached by SH. I personally spoke with him over 30 times between June '01- Apr. '02. My W also joined us in most of these sessions as well as had a couple alone with SH. OM1 seemed to be out of the picture by Mar. '01 because he had left the country. By Nov. '01 I had confirmed that my W was still communicating with OM1 by telephone (and probably mail). SH recommended to me to sit on the information and to continue with Plan A. This plan was not working even though my W continued to go along with the coaching sessions. We were not making any progress and my W was refusing to complete most of the 'homework' assignments.

By the time I told my W I knew about she was communicating with OM1 again (early Mar. '02), there was an OM2 as well as an OM3 in the picture! I told SH as soon as I found out about OM2 and OM3. He told me to continue sitting on the information for a couple of weeks. It was incredibly difficult for me. I would never recommend that strategy again.

Of course, when finally confronted about the A's my W denied them until I showed her the evidence. Then she admitted to what I had learned and what had been going on all through coaching with SH. HOwever, she insisted to me and SH that it was over with all the OM. Turns out it wasn't over, at least with OM2. And she continued her professional association with OM3.

In hindsight, I wish SH had been able to see early on in our coaching sessions that my W was still having affairs and not only back in communication with OM1 but also having an active PA with OM2 and later EA/PA with OM3. In fact, later, my W admitted to PA with OM2 in July '01, a few weeks after we started talking with SH. I now wish I had not withheld what I knew about the A's so long. Things might, might, have turned out different.

I tell you this for a different perspective. I understand the pain you must be bearing. I would recommend you don't keep the secrets any longer than necessary. Your W needs to wake up. You should also seriously consider exposing the A to other people. I'm not a professional, just a BS that has lived a painful journey and I want to help others improve chances for marriage recovery.

I highly recommend that you try to call Dr. H on either Monday or Thursday afternoons (1 pm, CST) to get his advice. You don't have to mention that you are currently being coached by his son. I also did this. See the Radio link above for more information. Call at least 10 minutes before the show to get improve your chances of getting to talk with him.

If you listen to and read Dr. H's stuff, you'll also see that he doesn't necessarily recommend staying in Plan A very long. However, understand that Plan A is intended to pull the WS away from the OP. Plan B is to protect the BS from further pain and LB's.

While your WS has every legal right to have the children with her, she should not be permitted to take them with her in a situation where she is living with the OM while still married to you. You don't know anything about this person and I'd bet you can get a lawyer to help you prevent this from happening. However, you may end up having to 'share' the children just like in a divorce case.

Don't give up the fight. Do what is in the best interest of the kids and that is to have a healthy and happy marriage with their mother. I respect your desire to try to make that happen. Good luck to you.

HoFS

1. Up to this point you have not confronted her with the truth. You need to do this. As long as she is still seeing him, your marriage will not improve. You will need to have the entire evidence ready because she is going to deny, deny, deny.
2. If she wants to split, you let her move out. YOU MUST STAY IN THE HOUSE. You need to protect your children. The second reason is she will need to see what life is like if she pursues a divorce. She will miss the kids and you. This will be a reality check. If you were to move out, this would make her life easy and this is not what you want. My wife left the state with my 2 kids while I was at work. She as gone 5 days before she returned. After 3 days she started to come out of the fog and started to see the damage she was doing to our kids.
3. If she leaves, go to plan B but you need to tell her you want to work it out. You can&#8217;t make her stop seeing the OM but there are consequences if she does decide to continue.

Remember plan A is to improve your relationship with each other not to help her see the OM. Sometime loving LB must happen to expose the darkness within. Don&#8217;t do anything that helps her with her A.

Good luck