I confirmed my worst nightmare on our 4th wedding anniversary on 4/17. I'd seen signs after signs of an A but couldn't bring myself to confront my H until the anniversary when I was just purely miserable, not getting any warm loving words from him. He told me the A with his co-worker started when our son, our first child, was just about 2 months old. I was having difficulty nursing and was going through post-partum depression then. In addition to the hormonal changes, physical pain, moodiness and fatigue, I was so caught up with my desire to nurse my baby that lovemaking was the last thing on my agenda. Besides, he is not a baby person and didn't really enjoy our baby at all the first few months. He basically didn't help me with the care of our baby, so I took it all upon myself. He said he thought he could walk away from the PA but the relationship progressed to EA as well (it may have been the other way round) as I was struggling with my own problem and had no room in my mind to think about sex. He's so in love with the OM because she ("a beautiful woman" that he always fantasized about ever since he was a teenager) gave him the biggest compliment about his sexual prowness (according to my H, she "bragged" about his prowness to her friends). I kicked him out after the A was confirmed but he came home about 10 days later. He's been home and coming home early from work most of the time, but hasn't completely ended the relationship. He decided to quit his work trying to end it one day, but he also decided to tell her that he was quitting so that she wouldn't lose control and cry in front of everyone (he was afraid of everyone else in the office finding out about the A). She started crying and told him how she couldn't end her feelings for him. He fell for it and told her how he couldn't end his feelings for her, either. I don't know what else was said then, but I flipped out when he told me all this and was totally enraged (a major LB). He went to work the next day trying to quit but said couldn't because of our financial situations (I've been staying home with our son). A few nights later, we made a big mistake of trying to make love but he couldn't do it. Ever since then, he seems to be convinced that he will not be able to make love to me ever again even if he decides to stay married. It does seems, though, that he's thinking about staying married. He's told me that he knows what's right and wrong, and yet he doesn't have any control over his mind. He's out of town this week for training and staying with his sister, but the more we try to talk to him, the more he pulls away from me, even though he knows what he should do (i.e., stay married). I'm afraid he's now thinking the only way to make a decision is to choose the OM and see how the life would be like with her. It seems like he's slipping away little by little...I'm trying to back off but sometimes I'm in a self-destructive mode by making stupid comments (disrespectful judgments - another major LB), trying to deal with images of him with her, or the images of the signs I saw, and such stupid comments make him say, "You think I'm that evil? Why do you want to be with me if you think I'm that evil?" I'm completely committed to this marriage, especially for our son's sake, and I try to be hopeful that we can turn this around, but he seems like he's so addicted and can't get himself out of it. It seems that all odds are against me, but I just don't want to let this go... Steve Harley told me my H is going through the withdrawal stage but he hasn't really ended the relationship (as he put it to the psychologist, "I had an intense relationship with a co-worker and it's in a cool-down stage right now."), and he shows no remorse even though he's said to me how sorry he is for putting me through all this. He says it was his fault and yet somewhere deep down in his heart he still blames me for "pushing him over the edge." I know he could've said "No" to the OW and avoided all this but sometimes I do blame myself and wish I didn't have post-partum depression or nursing difficulty. He says he has an idea of how painful it must be for me but, if he can't end his relationship, to me, he is not sorry at all or absolutely has no idea the pain I'm going through. It's so painful I'd rather die. One thing I keep telling myself, though, is that if he were really a true scumbag, he would've left a long time ago. I know that he's a good person at heart and that's why I still want to be with him.

A week after my H tried to quit his job but couldn't, I got my old job back. I have mixed emotions about going back to work...I know working will help me preoccupied most of the day and not think about this as much as I do now, but I feel so bad for our son for having to go to daycare. Long before we had him (even before we got pregnant), we decided that I'd stay home with our kids. I'm not saying daycare is bad; I'm actually hoping he'll develop more social skills. I also know that he'll be given much better care, love and attention than what I've been giving him for the last month. But it hurts me knowing a terrible situation like this is forcing him to go to daycare. As for my H, he had mix reactions to my getting job back, too. He was happy in a way a burden as a sole breadwinner was lifted off his shoulders. On the other hand, he was afraid that I was independent financially and I could be independent completely without him. But he's not quitting his job at all, and he's moping that he has weaknesses and that I may have to kick him out again.

My H and I have been going to see a clinical psychologist because he's realized that he's got to deal with his issues with his father and other things in order to deal with this mess and I've contemplated suicide. It turns out he has ADD (attention deficit disorder) and attachment issues. He's supposed to go on medication for ADD. If it works (I pray to God it will!), it may be a little easier for him to quit his job or let go of his relationship with his co-worker, but we'll see. He was raised a Christian but said to me that he hadn't prayed to God ever since the A began; he claims he's lost Him. He says God's not forgiving him. But at the same time, his eyes are closed and his ears are covered; just like Randy, he only wants to hear what he wants to hear, even though he knows what he must do.

I'm trying really hard to be hopeful and calm but it's really tough. I wish we didn't have to go through all this.

<small>[ May 20, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: achingheart8670 ]</small>

achingheart, I really feel for you only married four years. I've been married 26 I don't know what is worse. Do not beat yourself up for not picking up or acting on signs I too have done that I like you were going through a physical problem you post partum, me early menapause both causing us to have problems when it came to sexual desire. This I believe is not a reason for a man to cheat. They are are husbands for better or worse. This is the time you need him to be understanding and caring don't let him put the blame on you this is one thing I have learned my H tried to say it was both our faults he cheated yes there were things in the marraige that needed work and I will take responsability for that but the A was his doing not mine and you do not need to feel like your struggles as new mother were in anyway a green light for him to cheat. He needs to totally break it off with the OW , I know after my H confessed he said he needed to fix her pain and wanted me to please be understanding of this I said NO WAY she made her own choices she needs to deal with it herself the only one he needed to help with thier pain was me. I will do alot of things but I will not share my husband and niether should you.

Gingersnap,

Thank you for your reply. I'm completely with you - everything you said in your reply AND how you're feeling as you described in your own postings. (BTW, Mesoftball's advice was GREAT! It helped me, too.) I had to host a playgroup today and those who came saw our wedding photos on the walls. They commented how different I looked. I wanted to ask how different but I knew the answer and I couldn't: I have anguish written all over my face. After the playgroup, I went to a session with a psychologist. I cried all the way to her office because I was so sad having to pretend like everything between my H and I were fine to those moms who saw the photos. I vented everything - exactly the same feelings as yours. The A really killed me inside. I can't stand the fact that my H shared the most intimate part of our relationship with the OW just like that. Yet my H thinks I'm doing okay with this whole ordeal just because he doesn't see me cry. I wish he really saw my pain in my eyes. Instead, he tries to put the blame on me. He's in a total fog right now, so consumed thinking how he's going to keep everything in our marriage and continue with the OW. He even joked, "Can't we have an open relationship?" I'm beginning to think if he's really that jerk. If he's really sorry like he says he is, don't you think he'll quit his job and end his relationship? Well, I do know he's hoping it'll die the natural death because he just can't quit his job and ruin his career. Another reason for him not being able to end his relationship: ADD. He has an additive personality and ADD is reinforcing it. Once something holds his interest, he's SO caught up in it. That's why I'm hoping the medication for ADD works. I did tell him that, while I had shortcomings in our marriage, it was his choice to start an A. He knows that but still blames me somewhere deep down in his heart. Yes, he did make a choice to come home after getting kicked out, which is a good sign, I guess. But he's still moping around because he is going through the withdrawal like Steve Harley says? Why am I the one who must ask him to stay when he's the one who cheated on me? I can't tell anymore if I'm just thinking all these negative things about him in my head by twisting and interpreting everything in a negative way or if they are really true. What I know for sure is anguish, pain, hurt and sorrow I have. I hope that he's beating himself up inside just like Mesoftball said in your postings. The only thing I can do right now is to pray and wait for God to work on him and keep our marriage intact. I know exactly how you feel, Gingersnap, and you're not alone. Thanks for being there and understanding. I feel for you, too.

He may have lst God, but God has not lost him. God got through to my wife after a 3-year A. She told me and ended it the same day, shortly after hearing a sermon that convicted her. Keep praying for your H. Beyond that, click on the link in my signature line.

johnh39,

Thanks for your advice. I read "The Plan A, Doormats and Love Busters." I am really scared of pushing my WS away, though. He's been really pulling himself away every time his mom, his sister or I try to talk to him. I want to ask him to quit his job now that I'm going back to work and there will be no more excuses for him not to quit, but he's acting like a child and completely refuses. Of course, the last time we talked about him quitting his job, I LB'd, so it may work this time.

My WS is out of town this week on training, so I've been talking to him once a day. In my daily talk with him tonight, I mentioned about my session with the psychologist, and he asked how it went. I said it was okay and he really wanted to know what we talked about. I was afraid of telling him how I'm feeling because I didn't want him to think I'm putting pressure on him, so I told him I couldn't tell him right now. The bottom line is that he's completely acting like a child in a grocery store, wanting to get a candy bar and refusing every alternative or bargaining. Does it make sense? Would Plan A still work on someone like him?

I must say, though, my WS sounded sweeter than he had been in a long time in our daily talk two nights in a row. Since I did not tell him what I talked to the psychologist about, he was asking me if I talked to her about leaving him, etc. In a way, he's scared of losing me, I guess. He really wanted to know what I talked to the psychologist about. This sort of leads me to think that I should be playing hard-to-get right now rather than Plan A. What do you think?

I feel that my hands are tied. Everything I try to do is not perfect for him. Even more, his EN's have so much to do with physique, at least right now; larger breasts and a firmer butt. My breats are virtually non-existent especially after having nursed a baby (they were pretty much non-existent to begin with but he had no problem before the A). My weight is pretty much back to that of pre-pregnancy after 6 months postpartum but he says my butt is not as firm as it used to be. He's said to me that there's nothing else really that I need to work on, like keeping the house clean. I do keep our house clean or in a decent shape at least, and I cook meals every day. It's like I'm being put to the test even though he's the one who strayed. Why does it have to be that way? My psychologist suggested telling the OW that she's destroying our lives and stop contacting my H again, but the OW is the type (I think) who gets even fired up when she's told not to do certain things. So, how do I go about Plan A? The initial Plan A was a bust since it was right after the A came light of day and I LB'd because I was so furious. I immediately implemented Plan B and he did come home but I let him come home without ending his relationship with the OW. Can I still do Plan A?

I try to get him to go to church with me every Sunday but he refuses, saying that he's a sinner and God hasn't forgiven him. Can you see how frustrating it can be for me to do anything with him? He's really acting like a child. I am relying on God for strength, patience and wisdom and praying is the only thing I'm being able to do right now.

Any more advice is greatly appreciated, as you can tell, I'm confused.

johnh39,

You mentioned "Torn Asunder" in your linked message. Did you do the workbook as well? My WS' mom got us the workbook but not the actual book. Just wondering...

Thanks again for your advice and support.

Just some words of hope not that I am the pro to tell them but every day I feel I make progress but there are set backs for me daily. But my H did finally say to me you are right the A was his fault he chose it not me. He has been trying real hard to show his love for me today as a matter of fact he finished all he needed to do before I got off work then he took me to a movie(a movie i wanted to see i might add) and then dinner then we came home to watch a little t.v. together it was a nice afternoon but just one word or a song on the radio can send me into the thoughts of him with her the road is getting easier but it is still not smooth sailing. For me it is makeing the choice to do something for me like posting on this site it has helped me so much he saw me on the computer and it was driving him crazy that I did not want him looking over my shoulder it is not that I have any thing to hide but right now I need something that is all mine that gives me a release from my pain and is uplifting. I do love my H and I do believe all will work out but it is him facing his problems to not just me I try to be honest about myself and my short comings and try real hard to change them but getting him to do the same is very difficult.

Gingersnap,

Isn't it very hard to try to get your H to make the same kind of effort you're making? It's sinking in finally that I have no control over his actions. I know I don't sound like I love him anymore, but the truth is I do love him. I just can't even imagine a life without him. I miss him terribly right now - being physically AND emotionally away. But both you and I need to do what we need to do and we must be wise about it. It's very, very tough. It's so hard to deal with your emotions AND your knucklehead spouse, you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But unfortunately, we've been given the task of having to deal with this under God's direction. During my psychological session, I repeated over and over, crying, "Why did it have to happen to us?" Everything happens for a reason. We just have to accept it and take it one day at a time.

I'm glad you had a very nice day with your H. My H and I had a few days like that but they were axed by setbacks. I guess we're a little wiser thanks to the setbacks though. I love the way a good day like that makes you feel - you're making progress. It's a small step but it's very important. Let's keep this warm feelings in our hearts and press on!

I'm realizing I'm still expecting too much from my H right now. I mentioned in my previous posting about how he sounded sweeter than he had been in a long time tonight when I talked to him on the phone. I guess that's his way of showing his love for me - the best he can do right now but not at all the same way he used to before the A. I was thinking that I had to call him again tonight instead of him calling me, but I guess I can't expect much from him right now. I just have to accept this for now...

Hope you have a great day again tomorrow. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ May 21, 2003, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: achingheart8670 ]</small>

AH: We read through Torn Asunder together, discussed what we read, and did the included exercises. I didn't even know there was a work-book.

I find most people have to read and re-read about Plan A before they really "get it". another GREAT link on the subject is this one: Cerri on Plan A. I think going to the MB home page and searching on "Plan A", to see everything Harley has written here about it, and then re-reading the posts would be helpful to get it set in your mind.

However, a part of Plan A is to show your spouse that you can fulfull the emotional needs that the OP is filling. It is possible, based on the fact that your husband asked to come back very quickly the first time, that you are already doing that, or are fulfilling some other important EN's that the OP cannot fulfill. If the needs you are fulfilling are important enough to him, then a Plan B now should be effective in convincing him to cut off contact with the OW, since you will be preventing him from "having his cake and eating it, too", which is the situation you find yourself in now. The mistake was taking him back without adequate assurance that there would be no further contact with her. Now that he is back, if it were me, given the LB's in your first Plan A, I would do Plan A for about a month, and then give him the boot if he would not agree to no contact. In that month, I would read through both SAA and Torn Asunder with him, because they contain persuasive arguments for why NC is important. After that, if he was still cake-eating, I would just say "sharing you is too painful to me, I can't do it, and if you can't chose me exclusively, then I cannot continue to live with you. If you ever can give her up, and DEMONSTRATE to me that you are no longer in contact with her, please talk to me about moving back in, because I love you and still believe we can have a great marraige." and go to a full Plan B. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he says my butt is not as firm as it used to be. He's said to me that there's nothing else really that I need to work on, like keeping the house clean. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A couple of comments - 1) no matter how you feel right now, let me assure you that a decrease in the firmness of one's butt makes no significant difference as to how attractive your husband finds you, no matter what he says. Trust me. Also, I doubt small breasts are really an issue - yours were small when he married you, and they were not a problem for him then. The lack of sex for a long time was an issue for sure, but not an excuse. I would bet big bucks there IS a problem with his overall view of sexuality, but that is too deep a subject to address here in the time I have. I highly recommend "The Sexual Man", by Hart, as a partial antidote to the way he thinks about things now, and "Every Man's Battle" might be helpful, as well (I'm only part way through it - they seem to be pointed in the right direction, but I'm not sure they actually get there, since they haven't yet, and I'm about 1/3 done) If I could summarize the problem from my perspective: He is letting society's ideas of sex, and what he sees in many women, determine what he thinks is sexy, becasue he allows many women, images and thoughts arouse him, instead of defining sexy as what you are, because you are the only person for whom he allows himself to become aroused. There is probably a book behind that idea, but that is as concise as I can make it. 2) When he is gettng some of his EN's met by someone else, he may not be honest about what he wants from you, because he is not feeling a lack in that area. Hence the Plan A idea of showing him you can meet his needs. One of the major problems in Plan A is that people may not want you to meet their needs or admit they have them - and there is no perfect solution for that. Sometimes you can tell that you are meeting someone's needs because of their positive reaction when you do something for them, even if they will not admit they like it. Sometimes you can tell by their angry reaction - especially if they are using the fact that you don't meet a need to justify an affair to themselves - meeting the need they have told themselves you cannot meet wrecks the defense mechanism they have used to hold their guilt at bay, and that screws up their view of the world, so they get angry. And, sometimes they are so withdrawn that you can't tell if they even notice. If it was easy, everyone would do it...

It is not sin that keeps us from God so much as a lack of repentence. For years my wife asked God to help her stop sinning, but never asked for his forgiveness, because she did not want to stop sinning, and she felt that to ask for forgiveness would be hypocritical. The sermon that convicted her was about the woman in the church in Thyatira (sp) who was sinning and leading others into sexual sin, but she was condemned not for her sin, but for her lack of repentance. So, yeah, he is not forgiven until he repents of (turns away from) his sin.

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

PLEASE never ever blame yourself for post-partum depression!
also putting breastfeeding of your (HIS!) child before sex (in these months!)!

he should have been there for you in these moments, and for his son
to help you go through rough times
to appreciate you not only as his wife, but as mother of HIS son as well

he is not that (father) type?
to bad for him - losing the most beautiful feelings in the world!

Dear aching,

I am so sorry to hear about the difficult time you are going through right now. I am glad that you have found MB, as you will find many people to help you through this time – you are not alone! It has barely been a month since you found out, and the first while is often the most trying. Hang in there. Just to let you know where I’m coming from, my H had an EA with a co-worker that began last summer. D-day mid-December. Major fog through January, February and into March. In March he decided to go NC with OW (he had only seen/ called her occasionally since January). Then the withdrawal started. Seemed to last a little longer than usual – took about 8 weeks before it started to get better. And I did my best little Plan A, I can tell you (not that I didn’t slip up). We still have a long way to go, but if anyone had told me a couple of months ago that we would be here, I wouldn’t have believed them.

I really struggled with the “why is this happening to me/us” question early on. Don’t think there’s really an answer, except that it just IS. When I read some statistics about the prevalence of affairs in society today, I started to wonder if the question shouldn’t really be “why NOT me/us”. Maybe if we had both recognized the danger we would have avoided it. It sounds like you are starting to accept that this has/is happening. According to my reading, this is one of the first steps in recovery. Have you visited the website dearpeggy.com? I found it helpful and encouraging, especially early on. It is very possible to get through this awful experience with a stronger, closer and more satisfying marriage.

Have you been reading? Early on I was quite obsessed with reading information about As and found that it really helped me emotionally (sort of my private therapy). I’d start with Surviving an Affair (Harley). Would your H be open to reading it? My H started reading it a bit back in January/February. He was amazed by how accurately the stories portrayed his emotions. I think that it started him thinking that we could get through this together… (he was in the “I love you but I’m not in love with you” stage early on). Even if he isn’t receptive to reading it right now, you could just leave it around (I tried to place a bookmark where I thought he might find helpful, hoping he might be curious and read…)

Your H is in the fog of a fantasy relationship right now. It is NOT FAIR that you have to work so hard at a time when you have been hurt so badly. You have said that you are committed to your marriage, so now’s the time you have to be strong. You will get through this. Take care of yourself (eat, sleep, exercise). I’d go back to Plan A (the idea is to keep it up for as long as you can). It helped me to find alternative ways to vent my frustrations (rather than LBs). This message board is one way. So is your psychologist, and maybe a trusted friend. I have been lucky to have a good friend who tried to keep me focussed on my goal (to save the marriage), even I was too angry to really want to be bothered. It also helped me to set little goals for myself (i.e. I will not cry with H this morning/ today etc.).

Hey – and I think that it’s a positive sign that your H is concerned that you might become independent from him by having a job. It may be mixed in with a lot of other stuff, but it’s definitely a good sign. He’s really confused right now. I agree that you probably can’t expect too much from him right now, but take what you can! (took my H months before remorse and some indication of understanding my pain appeared).

I’m pretty new here myself, but I hope that some of this might help a little. Let us know how you’re doing.

Chickadee

achingheart, today I felt happy it has been a really long time since I have felt happy. For some reason I feel guilty for this I know I am on the road to recovery. Yes I had a good day yesterday but I still have set backs often do not let the set backs get you down I do try to learn from them. I think you have made such a big step by reconizing that WE do not have control over what others do. I to have asked "why me" but I had a friend with breast cancer she was a wonderful christian woman such an inspiration to me and I think of her often she went home to be with the Lord several years ago but she always said I never ask why me I ask why not me if Jesus could die on a cross why can I not have cancer. I want to be that strong. I will say some good has come from my H A I think he has relized what he has in me as a wife. In my situation she was not thinner than me as a matter of fact she was 3 inches taller than my H I think that kind of bothered her because when I talked to her she mentioned that she said did he tell you how tall I was? I think that is just an excuse your H is making to justify what he is doing in my case it was I didn't think you loved me anymore now why would he think that I ask? Because I decided to treat him the way he had treated me for years! if that was the case I should have had an A a long time ago. Do keep praying you are ahead of me on that one in the past no matter what happened I could always pray this time I find it so difficult I don't understand that but I am working through it.

Hi, all:

Thank you so much for your advice and comfort. It's unfortunate that we're all in the same boat but it's comforting and uplifting to know that there are people like all of you whom I can share my thoughts and feelings with.

I have been reading some information about A's - I do need to read more. It's hard to read A's used in books and on sites. I'm getting SAA, TA, and two other books Johnh39 recommends. My H told me that he's NEVER finished reading a book in his entire life. We know now that's because of ADD. No wonder he never picked up any of the books about fatherhood, pregnancy, labor and delivery I bought! (The books on pregnancy, labor and delivery did have at least one chapter dedicated to fathers-to-be.) So, reading books with him would mean I'd have to read it aloud to him or read a chapter first and highlight what I think is important to him so he can read what's highlighted. I'll do it, though - whatever it takes.

Johnh39 is right on the target re: my H's view of sexuality. When I was trying to get him to complete EN and LB questionnaires for our counseling with Steve Harley, he told me what's keeping him from ending his relationship. He spent his high school years imagining, fantasizing, hoping, wishing pretty girls would look at him and find him attractive. But it didn't happen, so he spent many years well into his adulthood, even after he met me, an Asian descent, watching porn videos and visiting porn sites of American and European women and never Asian women. He got a job at where he works now, where this woman, an American woman who looks like one of those women he fantasized about and who could be in those porn stuff he watched, was working already. She apparently has no problem talking openly about sex enhancement products or receiving catalogs from Frederick's of Hollywood at the office, because she knows she gets men's attention by her "good looks" AND the "seductive" ways of doing things like that. Plus, she's been having problems with her own H, who apparently gets drunk and becomes physically abusive. My H, who NEVER, EVER talked about our sex life to ANYONE, not even to his best friend when he was telling my H everything he was going through with his girlfriends, decided to openly talk about how he was not getting any from me during those post-partum months. So imagine how it must be - the sexual release must've been so intense. On top of that, she, who has no bragging rights about my H to begin with, bragged about his sexual prowness to her friends. Can you see how this is SO dream-come-true for him? Why should he let go of such a wonderful thing that he fantasized about for so long? He told me now he feels like he's bitten the forbidden fruit. After the lovemaking attempt episode, he said he was so evil - which means that he really thinks the OW would be his choice. I'm afraid he's now thinking about how to exit from this marriage, rather than how to save this marriage. So, it does have A LOT to do with my H's view of sexuality based on the societal ideas and his immaturity. How I wish I could've stopped the A before it progressed to where it is.

Right before I started writing this, I had my nightly talk with my H. I read to him a letter he received from the husband of my confidante, which said that he knows my H's pain because he'd been there before and how he lives with the consequences every day. I also read to him a thank-you note from a neighbor about us being there for her son's dedication ceremony. It said how they're looking forward to raising our boys together and sharing more celebrations together. I started crying reading those to him. The only thing he could say, however, was, "Oh gees." Now I'm thinking he sounded "sweet" because he may have made up his mind about leaving me and may be trying to be nice to me to minimize the damage. I don't know. I may be thinking way too much. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I'm trying to develop my Plan A right now. Even if he hasn't had contact with the OW privately, he does see her 5 days a week, and it's not helping at all. I'm good at LB'ing, so that's where I'm spending a lot of time to come up with the way I want to tell him certain things. Your suggestion, Johnh39, was great. Thanks. But I do re-read about Plan A.

Besides your words of encouragement and advice, the only thing that has kept me going so far is praying. Gingersnap, it does help. I was not a very religiously committed person before but God is there for you especially in the time of suffering like it is right now. I do have good moments where I feel lighthearted because I asked God to take away my pain and He did. He heard my prayers when He got me my job back rather quickly. The Sunday after the D-day was Easter Sunday. I was at church when I heard God tell me, "He'll come back." At that time, he was staying at a hotel and a week later, he did come back. I hope God meant that my H will come back to me and save this marriage.

I know I'm meeting most of my H's EN's - they are rather just convenient needs - taking care of his son, cooking meals, and keeping the house in order. I'm also doing other things he told me to do that are EN's. But he's not playing a fair game. He's not letting me meet the biggest EN, which the OW has been fulfilling. I must develop a really good Plan A. If he agrees with and demonstrates NC with the OW by the time our son turns a year old, that'll be great. I know this is very much an uphill battle because he doesn't even say "I love you". I know he cares about me but he doesn't even love me now. How I wish he be hit by a lightning!

Guernica, my H loves our son. Our son is the only blessing he can name right now. He said his smile melts his heart. He wants to be involved in his life. I told him that I don't want his father to come visit him on weekends but to be there for him day in and day out, living under the same roof. Even though our son smiles a lot and makes noise a lot and is more fun to be with than the first two months, he is still boring to my H. He's really looking forward to our son walking and talking. He's really not a baby person at all. I know he's missed out a lot already. He only appreciates me as his son's mother and a devoted wife. Sigh.

Chickadee, thank you for your words of encouragement. I realize I can't continue to dwell on what's happened because I can't do anything about it. But I can do something about what will happen, so I need to continue to focus on my goal. If you don't mind sharing your Plan A with me, that'll be great. Did your H's OW quit her job? Did he? Or did they continue to work at the same place?

Thanks all again for your advice, help and support. I think I'm overwhelmed a little right now but I'll digest every bit of it to go forward...I look forward to hearing from all of you again (and again and again...) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: achingheart8670 ]</small>

One more thing about his view of sex, which I think is made clear in "The Sexual Man": His use of pornography (which I kind of expected) actually is getting him in the habit of sexual arousal and release without an emotional connection to the object of his desire. This is not God's design for sex, and carries over in to his sexual relationship with you, so he is training himself not to notice the aspect of sex that makes it emotionally satisfying, even when he is in a context (with you) where that could occur. One of the main topics in "The Sexual Man" is what makes for a great sex life from a man's perspective, and what interfere's with that (which may be a "hook" you can use to get him to listen while you read it). Pornography is high on the list of things that screw it up.

We usually read silently while sitting next to each other, but at times one or the other of us would read aloud. No reason you can't do a whole book aloud.

His "failure" with you is probably due more to guilt than anything else. Jesus has a solution for that.

Dear aching,

I’ll do my best, but let me warn you that I am a (kind of obsessive) planner (working on this), and I’m not the greatest at expressing myself in writing. Hope this is some help to you some small way. As you will notice, I also tend to go on and on…

First, Plan A. I did finally find it written somewhere that Plan A is a “competition”. It felt this way to me. Basically, I wanted to avoid LBs, make any and all possible love bank deposits by meeting my H’s emotional needs, recognize what contributions I had made to the state of our marriage before the A (I draw a very firm line that this does not excuse my H’s decisions in any way, but I could have been a better partner in the M).

1. Avoid LBs. The LB that I was guilty of (and most drawn to…) was “selfish demands”. I wanted to push my H into renouncing his love for OW, taking responsibility and making me feel better, giving me signs of hope for our M and most of all, having frequent relationship talks (whenever I wanted). Now, my Taker (have you read the giver and taker in basic concepts on this site?) kept telling me that these demands were completely reasonable. And even know I can see that in some ways they were – I had been very hurtfully wronged and wanted my H to make it up to me. But I realized fairly early on that this was VERY counterproductive considering my goal – TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE (and to have it come out better and stronger than ever - I wasn’t going to be happy with a bad one!). Keep your goals in mind (it helped me to have a friend who reminded me of mine when I was heading downhill on the rollercoaster). Everytime I broke down in tears with my H I felt that he moved away from me and the M. Why? Well, the guilt for one – he’d look at me and feel a huge amount of guilt for hurting me so badly. He wondered if this would go away – how could he look forward to a M where I became a trigger for his guilty feelings (although I do want him to take responsibility…). And he knew that the only way he could placate me was to tell me things I wanted to hear, things that were not true (i.e. I love only you, I know this was wrong, I’ll get rid of OW right away, I regret the A…). So, I was demanding things that he couldn’t honestly give me. And I didn’t want lies. He was also afraid of staying in the M because of guilt for hurting me and his desire to help me out, not out of love, so he tended to shut himself down to my feelings. I didn’t appreciate this at the time, but I better understand it now and I’m glad that he had decided to stay in the M because he WANTS to, not because of guilt. The struggle to quit crying all of the time with my H was huge for me, but this is what helped: setting goals (i.e. I will not cry this evening/ today/ this weekend – start small, don’t get too upset if you slip up, keep trying); reading to help me to process my feelings, feel connect to others experiencing the same situation (I lurked around this board all the time for months without posting – good for you for posting already!) and keep believing that it was possible to recover myself and my M; confiding in true and trusted friends who would support me in my desire to rebuild the marriage and would listen to me vent my frustration and sadness. Come here when you need to vent – we are here to help and support you. The other LB I fall victim to is “disrespectful judgements”. My H didn’t need to hear my analysis of his emotions (and given all of my reading, I really did have some good insight into his feelings – but I wasn’t the person to tell him what he felt etc. – much better he figure things out on his own or with counsellor, reading or friends).
2. Be strong (ties into avoiding LBs). Saving the M became my challenge. I didn’t think I was strong enough to control my emotions so that we could have a chance. Sometimes I wasn’t strong at all. But overall I was stronger than I ever thought I could be. I also motivated myself by considering how I would feel if my H chose to leave the M. It would be devastating for me, and it would only be worse if I felt that I had not DONE MY BEST and made every effort on behalf of the M. I didn’t want regret and guilt to burn away inside me. Looking back at my behaviour in the first few months through a softer lens than before, I can honestly say that I am proud of how I handled the situation.
3. Meet H’s emotional needs as much as possible. Now, this too was pretty distasteful for my taker (again, I had been hurt, it wasn’t “fair” that I had to put myself out to make things better). This seemed easier to handle though than avoiding LBs. I had to be strong and focus on my goal. The first hurdle was to figure out what his ENs were (he was in no mood to complete the questionnaire, though he did look over the list and give me a little insight). So I asked myself, what needs was OW filling and how could I fill these myself. Also, what needs had I been filling that I should continue to fill. In my case, I was probably filling needs for domestic support and the need for an attractive spouse (I am at least as attractive as the OW, work out, etc.) and somewhat conversation (though often related to stressful events going on in other parts of our lives, so not really constructive). OW was providing abundant conversation (working together, mostly just the two of them, for 40 hours a week), admiration (a damsel in distress, fleeing an abuse BF with my H’s help; buying her own house and so appreciative of every little thing H did for her – he’s so big and strong – yuck!), recreational companionship (they were mostly only together during work, but both enjoyed their jobs and took satisfaction in there work and how they accomplished things together). Since it didn’t progress beyond the EA, I guess she wasn’t really meeting SF need, but it was sure on his mind and he wasn’t interested much in me that way. She really had me beat! So, what to do? Admiration – appreciate the small things I had taken for granted (but only in a genuine way, this wasn’t hard since after the A was disclosed I realized that I loved my H more than I had ever thought); also asked H’s opinion and then used it. Conversation – about non-relationship things he was interested in; listen to him, don’t take over every conversation; keep up to date on current events (esp. politics, an interest of him) and be able to relate interesting anecdotes. Recreational companionship – whenever possible, take time to do something fun together - and remember that relationship talk is off limits especially at that time (doing “fun” things together seemed awkward at first but got easier – kept at it!). Domestic Support – continue to “take care” of H – he has always loved the way I manage to keep him well fed, in a (relatively) clean house, and in clean clothes. I enjoy cooking, and H enjoys eating – kept making his favourite things, but also took advantage of more “cheater” meals that H enjoyed (i.e. frozen pizzas, eating out, take-out etc.) so that I/we could have more time for other things. Attractive spouse – keep taking care of myself, and making extra efforts to look nice for H (i.e. ditched the ratty pjs I wore sometimes, dressed up a bit more even just around the house, took time for myself to get my hair done, makeup, tanning, pedicures/manicures etc.) . After a while H was willing to go shopping with me – I let him chose some clothes for me that I might not have bought on my own – a bit more flirty and tighter than usual – they look and feel good though and I get compliments from others too (good for self esteem!).
4. Recognized major flaws in how we had dealt with recent changes in our lives and dealt with them in a better way. My H’s father passed away in 2001 and left him and his brother with a business to deal with. Lots of conflict between H and B. Lots of me taking H’s side and holding grudges against B. Me pretty much hating BIL. Pushing H to be harder on B. What to do? Started being easier on BIL, inviting him to dinner, realizing that family was more important than conflict over how people do things and deal with $. Also, we had decided to let me focus on house while H spent at least ½ of the weekend with father’s business. I started working alongside him. Worked on us becoming a team again, like we were before we decided to spend less time together in the name of efficiency (how misguided in retrospect…)
5. Overall, show that I can deal with my strong emotions AND that I am someone he would want to be with!

I also found some ideas on divorcebusting.com that helped me with my plan A (the more planning the better – I actually wrote my daily plan-A-plans to help me focus). Some of the ideas that I thought helped me (and of course wrote in my notebook!) were:
- do not ask for reassurances
- be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
- no matter how you are feeling today, show happiness and/ or contentment – show him I’m someone he wants to be around
- be strong and confident (and in my case, tried to speak a little more softly at the same time)
- do not be openly needy or desperate
- *** do not insist on talks about relationship ***

Please don’t get the idea that I did some sort of perfect Plan A. I definitely slipped up (frequently at first), but eventually it became easier to follow for longer periods, and to recognize when I might “fall of the Plan A bandwagon” and get help from friends/ counsellor. Also, reflecting back on Plan A now is bound to include what I have learned since that time, so I have added some of that in too. Hope it helps a little.

As for the work situation, our M was very fortunate. The week after DD-day went like this: 3 days H on vacation (forced by company since wouldn’t let him carry forward into new year). Thursday and Friday, worked with OW. Friday was OW’s last day before being laid off for winter. After that, H did speak to OW for some time and visited her too (not really sure of the extent, but wasn’t every day for too long, remained EA only, but talked about future, our M a bit etc. – arghh). In February H told me that he was thinking of quitting his job and pursuing self-employment. In March he visited OW to say “goodbye”. I really wanted the NC letter, but didn’t get it. I decided to settle for what I could get, though I think many veterans of this board would disagree with me. H did share with me in painful detail the conversation they had and the tears they both shed. His honesty in this helped me to believe it – he told me things that he knew would hurt me. For me, the big commitment to our R, however, was when he finally quit his job. I really didn’t believe that he would go through with it, but kept up plan A and didn’t even mention the job (let him do that when he wanted to – at 10pm the night before he had to give his notice, he asked me to help him with his letter – didn’t really know if he would go ahead and write one). So, he finished work the week before OW returned (April). Hasn’t seen or spoken to her since March, though hears about her through friends he has from work

Recently my H told me that at first I tried to work on the M because I felt that I owed to you and to our past, but then I realized that it might actually work out for us. He began to see the “fantasy” nature of the A, and that by spending more time together (and my Plan A work that he never knew about) things could actually be GOOD for us. He is feeling closer to me now than he has in a long time. I have overtaken the OW in the love bank. He has thanked me for my strength and insight and how I worked to save the M, and maybe even H from his destructive path. We’re still working on things, and there are bumps in the road and backward steps. It truly is a rollercoaster, but we have already gotten to a place that in December I hardly dreamed we’d ever find. I have also found more strength in myself and confidence in my ability to deal with life’s challenges.

Aching - did you make it through this marathon post. My sincere apologies as I fear I may have hi-jacked your thread – my intention was to answer your questions, but I may have been carried away a bit and found some of my own therapy in writing this…

Please let us know how you are doing.

Chickadee

Chickadee,

I'm SO grateful for you for taking time to write all that! I loved reading all of it! I'm more motivated today than I have been for the last few days. I realized I was putting myself down with negative thinking and told myself I had to stop it. I wish I could've used this week when my H has been out of town to develop a good Plan A but he'll be back tomorrow morning, so I just have to find time to myself to develop one. I realized I really need to stop doing small LB's - images of the signs of the A or him with her haunts me and I let slip some words I shouldn't have. But I've been a little wiser about making it short and sweet this week on the phone with him so I'm determined to keep it that way.

I know exactly what you mean about dressing in the way he likes. I've been doing that for a little while now. It DOES help your self-esteem although the clothes he likes are a little too tight and revealing. I also mention to him every compliment I get from other people about how great I look for having a baby, hoping he will realize that's hard to get. I do make sure I have makeup on, nails done, etc, too. Admiration - and appreciation - is also an important one for my H. The most important one, SF, THE one the OW had been fulfilling, he's not letting me even try to fulfill that right now, so I have to meet all others. Another thing is he loves warm home environment. So, I have to keep up with homemade meals (it's hard when leftovers start piling up) and decorate the house with the holiday stuff. I'm also trying to keep ourselves busy on the weekends. I was talking to him about getting together with one of our neighbors this weekend when he said that he's not in the mood to hang out with anyone right now. But I know he complains about not doing anything on the weekend, so I'm taking the approach to keep us busy with fun things.

In the meantime, I was trying to figure out how to tell my H to quit his job in order to completely severe his tie with the OW, but I may keep my mouth shut for now. He did tell me and Steve Harley that he wants to take his own time in his own way to resolve this, so I may need to honor that. It's tough for me, though. I've been also writing down some thoughtful and respectful things to tell him, but I won't actually tell him all that until when I know for sure I have to.

Because of the magnitude of the hurt and pain, I've built an image of my H as completely evil, which was leading me to think all these things he may be thinking or doing. But if he really were that evil, he wouldn't have come home when I kicked him out, right?

I'm going to get "The Sexual Man", "A Man's Battle", SAA and TA this afternoon. I do feel bad for our son - I'm spending so much time reading for this and have just a little time to play with him. But in the long run, if we can stay together, it'll be worth it.

Aching,

So glad that my story was of some help/ comfort. I have learned so much and gained so much encouragement by lurking around here – it feels good to help someone else.

So you’ve started counseling with Steve Harley? That’s great news.

I know that it is tough to hang in while your H takes time to resolve this in his own way, as yours put it. I don’t think that telling your H he has to quit his job should be a part of plan A. My understanding is that plan A is what you do while your spouse is trying to decide between you and the OW. Telling him to quit would probably be a LB (demand). The Harleys can give you good guidance here.

The dearpeggy.com website has some ideas for dealing with images etc., but one of the best things you can do is what you’re already doing – reading. The more you learn and the more perspective you gain the better. Apparently studies have shown that reading has some effect in the brain that makes it easier to deal with strong emotions (and it’s hard to get enough help here, as far as I’m concerned), so read on!

I’m pretty sure that your husband is in a fog right now and isn’t really sure of his direction. IMHO, the fact that he is there means that he is open to the prospect of saving the marriage – and this is where plan A fits in.

Take good care of yourself and your son and keep posting when you can.

Chickadee

I don't even know if I screwed up or not...My H came home yesterday from a week-long traing out of town. We had a pleasant conversation on the way back from the airport. During the conversation, he asked about my faith. He asked if I'm a born-again Christian. I said yes but he said, "That's a trigger word. (I don't remember what exactly he said after that.)" His dad was a religious fanatic (mentally ill, too) and he WAS a born-agan Christian, so he implied he didn't want to have anything to do with me anymore. He repeated again how he's sinned and God's not forgiving him for that. I told him God forgives him but it's what he does about the sin that makes a difference. But he was stubburn about hiis belief. We started talking about it again after we got home, and I started telling him without LBing how God forgives him, I forgive him, I had a part in distancing ourselves in our M. He told me not to blame myself because it was all his fault and he screwed up big time. We both had an appointment with out psychologist in the afternoon, so we went together. We kept talking about this whole thing and I told him I love him even though I haven't said it enough (I haven't really said "I love you" to him since he came home because I was afraid of not getting the same in turn - I should've). He started accusing me of not being honest so I told him how I felt and how I discussed my feelings with the psychologist. I said I wanted him to be honest with me, too, and he said he didn't want to hurt me. Basically, during my session with the psychologist, I confirmed that he wants to choose the OW. I didn't cry, but I was numb. We kept talking about all this throughout the rest of the day except for the time when we had company, during which I have to admit that I did small LB's (he sort of instigated it, though). He thinks he needs to get kicked out or kick himself out again. He said he was making efforts trying to forget about or end it with the OW until the dreadful, failed lovemaking attempt a few weeks ago but he hasn't since then. I'm trying to focus on my ultimate goal but he's admitted that he's built a wall around him and got thick-skinned from all the things his mom, sister and I've tried to tell him. He's getting immune to guilt-trip words (he interprets everything that way even though I have no intention of giving it). I even asked what he would tell our son if asked why he was not living with him, and he said he would tell that's because he's a bad person but he believes he will be a great father. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

We're going on on overseas trip for my sister's wedding in less than 2 weeks, so we both agreed that he'll still go on the trip and wait until after we get back to see whether I need to kick him out again. The only thing I have to do right now to do MAJOR Plan A. My heart is so heavy for the way things are right now. HELP!!!!!

<small>[ May 25, 2003, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: achingheart8670 ]</small>

Should I contact the OW and tell her not to continue to destroy our lives? I'm thinking about telling her to put herself in my shoes - the love of her life is having an affair right after she had a baby with him...how would she feel? I'm also thinking about disclosing the affair to people at their work. What do you think?

<small>[ May 25, 2003, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: achingheart8670 ]</small>