I will keep this short and to the point. My wife of 12+ years has been having an affair for more than a year with someone that works in the same large office building that she works in. Not the same employer. They found the time to see each other for about 90 min. during most work days.

I have been suspicious for about 7 months and have been looking for proof. I asked her about 2 months ago and she denied it. My gut told me to intensify my efforts to find that proof. Finally, I found that proof, confirmed it, found out who it was, etc. and confronted her with it this past weekend. With the evidence I presented she admitted to the affair.

She has been having an affair with a married man. However, she claims that she did not have sex of any kind. The most physical contact they had was kissing. I can not believe an affair with no sex for more than a year.

After everything cooled down, the next day, we had a long discussion about everything. The bottom line is that we still love each other and want to make this work. She swears on our child that she did not have sex, has ended the affair and she without hesitation has agreed to my demand to take a Lie Detector test (will do ASAP). I hope it confirms what she says. I also called the other party to put him on notice that its over and may have to face me if it continues.

If she did have sex I would not be able to continue in this marriage. I would not be able to deal with that type of pain and this experience has been extremely painful to this point. If I can eliminate my doubt I think we could move forward, work things out and be happy.

The questions are:

Am I fool for believing her?

Is a sexless affair possible for that length of time?

Is the affair really over?

Need help to work through these issues.

The answers are:

No. (but that does not mean she is telling the truth)

Yes. (but that does not mean she is telling the truth)

Maybe. (and the answer does matter. Until you make some substantial changes to your lives, you will not be sure. The lie detector test will not actually answer this question, because it can be over today and start again tomorrow.)

Click on the link in my signature line for some resources to help you through this, and to find out more about the kinds of changes you have to make in your lives. In some ways a sexless affair is HARDER to recover from because it is too easy for the WS to tell herself she "didn't do anything wrong". You might also want to read this link: Emotional infidelity

everything is possible nowadays

you are not a fool if you believe her
she's fool if she thinks she'll get away with it

you'll know (feel) if affair is over (your gut was right at that time leading to discovery, why wouldn't it be again?!)

Oh, yeah - let his wife know. Wouldn't you want to know in her shoes??

Hi Hurt,

After everything cooled down, the next day, we had a long discussion about everything. The bottom line is that we still love each other and want to make this work. She swears on our child that she did not have sex, has ended the affair and she without hesitation has agreed to my demand to take a Lie Detector test (will do ASAP). I hope it confirms what she says.

I also called the other party to put him on notice that its over and may have to face me if it continues.

Hmmm, would have been better just to follow the MB program, and have her write a letter of “no contact” to other man. Right now all you’ve done is let him know that you know about the affair. In his own mind, you’re probably just keeping your wife from him, and he probably thinks her real desire is to still be with him. The no contact letter, from her, says “the affair was wrong, I’m going to work out things with my husband, I don’t ever want to see or hear from you again, and if you do try to contact me, I will be open and honest with my husband and tell him.” If this doesn’t sound familiar, it’s because you haven’t read Harley’s Surviving an Affair. Proceeding forward on your own without having done that, or without MB coaching, is guaranteeing more mistakes will be made. In other words, order the book. Now.

If she did have sex I would not be able to continue in this marriage. I would not be able to deal with that type of pain and this experience has been extremely painful to this point. If I can eliminate my doubt I think we could move forward, work things out and be happy.

Did you marry her because she was a virgin? Was that a requirement? Yes, I know how you feel because I’ve been in your same shoes. We look at the fact that they had sex, and how could they! Unless your wife has a strong EN for SF, and this guy was perfection, you really need to concentrate on the emotional aspect of the affair. Her feeling in love is the thing that’s difficult to work around, to get behind you so that the two of you can begin to recover your marriage. Yep, it’s painful. And it’s going to be that way for a while. But don’t kid yourself, this foremost need to know is not really that important.

The questions are: Am I fool for believing her?

I think you’d be a fool for trusting her at this point. I think you need to review all of the things that allowed her to have this affair. There needs to be accountability that there will be no contact. What have the two of you changed that will ensure that they don’t see each other again, even in casual contact. They work in the same building? Recovery with continued contact is not possible.

Is a sexless affair possible for that length of time?

Yep, next question. Did she have sex with him? Well does it really matter? Beyond being tested for STD’s, it really doesn’t.

What I find impossible to believe though is your “bottom line.” That she still loves you, and that she wants to work this out. Does a woman having an emotional affair for a year still love her spouse? I would say “no.” But you can change that. But not with the approach you seem to be following of taking it for granted as a truth, and running her through the sex/no sex dealbreakers, etc.

Is the affair really over?

Bigger question is whether the contact is even over. Again, have you followed the proper steps to end this? The affair cannot even begin to end, the withdrawal happen, the conflict, all of those phases, until there is no more contact.

John’s advice about telling the OM’s wife is good too. Jenn, our MB Coach, really wanted to do that in our situation. But one of wife’s conditions to work this out with me was that I stayed away from any contact with OM and his family. That if I told OM’s wife, then that would essentially be done out of spite, and that would break the deal between us. It was quite a test. OTOH, she also understood that if OM tried to contact her, or vice versa, that the world was going to know about it.

You decide. As long as your wife is committed to avoiding contact, maybe the wife notification should not happen. One of the things that I was honestly afraid of was that if I told his wife, she would kick him out, and he would have nothing to lose with contacting my wife again. I guess that gave me some leverage. He has since divorced, but we are far enough down the road to Recovery that it’s been a non-event.

P

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: persistant ]</small>

Hi Hurt,

1. Am I fool for believing her?
- No, I don't think so, but she will have to earn your trust back by being open and honest. She needs to show you through her actions that she is working on the marriage and can be trusted.

2. Is a sexless affair possible for that length of time?
- Yes, it is possible. My H had an EA with a co-worker. I do believe him that it wasn't a PA (I first thought that this meant that he had some limits, but no, she was the one who wouldn't take it that far because he was married and she liked me as a person - too bad H didn't!). He knew that it would cause me pain to hear this truth, but the fact that he told me the details when I asked has helped me to begin to restore some trust in him.

3. Is the affair really over?
- Not sure how you can know for sure at this point. Have you gotten a copy of SAA and read the Basic Concepts and Q&A sections of this website? They will help you in this journey.

Your W's apparent willingness to answer your questions and go through with the polygraph test sound like very good signs to me. Have you found a MC yet? I haven't tried the telephone counselling through this site, but have heard really good reviews from others on the board. Another website that might be helpful to you is dearpeggy.com.

It's interesting to me that you feel you couldn't continue the relationship if it was a PA. I felt relieved that my H "only" had an EA, but maybe only because it seemed like one less layer to deal with. I have read that (in general, so it won't apply to everyone), male BS are more distraught by the sex and female BS by the emotional aspect. I have sometimes thought that it might have been easier for me (and less threatening to our M) if my H had had a strictly PA. I'm only guessing though. In any event, things have happened as they have, and I am coming to accept that.

Good luck and let us know how things are going for you.

Chickadee

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she did have sex I would not be able to continue in this marriage. I would not be able to deal with that type of pain and this experience has been extremely painful to this point. If I can eliminate my doubt I think we could move forward, work things out and be happy.

Did you marry her because she was a virgin? Was that a requirement?

Is a sexless affair possible for that length of time?

Yep, next question. Did she have sex with him? Well does it really matter? Beyond being tested for STD’s, it really doesn’t.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly, that is a bs response. Whether or not they had sex may not be a factor to you, but it is huge factor to some of us. Sorry, but I would much rather get over an emotional betrayal than a physical one. Whether or not a spouse had sex with someone before you were married is not a valid comparison.You spouse was not with you prior to your M, so what they did is up to them. For someone to betray you physically, during the M, is not the same. Why? It is one thing to have feelings for someone else. We can't always control that. But you can control whether or not you have sex with someone.

Now, if he loves her and wants to be with her, he will have to decide if it is something he can get over. But, if he decides that is something he cannot live with, that's his decision, and I for one would respect it.

My W had an EA/PA. Frankly, I would give my right arm if it had been an EA only. I could get past that. Would it be easy? No, of course not. I am not happy that my W had feelings for another man. She should have cut it off, avoided him, told me about it to help her though it, all of that. But I understand that the feelings were there, and she could not control how she felt. But she could have controlled going to bed with OM.
Michael

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

Yes, I went through the same issue. First, I have to say, if you read half the material out there, you will discover that men dwell on the sex issue, while woman dwell on the emotions. So let me say, YOU ARE NORMAL!

My wife had a 6 month event, and did let him have some free time at the breast, but was uncomforatble going further. Belive me, I (and you) asked her ten thousand times and after a consistent answer of no, I can believe her. BUT, if it had been yes, It will definetly take longer than the 1.5 years to get over what she did.

There are several examples here of affairs only being emotional verses physical.

Now the additional tough stuff. Is the affair really over? Depends. Depends on her feelings for the guy. You may have to wait like I did for 6+ months for her to get over him. Some woamn expressed the issue that there will always be a spot in their hearst for these folks. It just depends. The important firts step for her is to write a letter of no Contact..In her situation where they work in the same building, its tough. Belive me its topugh. In fact, I have to tell you that my wife is at her Lovers house tonight with a colleage going over plans because the meeting was in his home town this week. THIS SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But thats for my post not yours.Do not be surprised if she can not do the letter right way, Depends again on her. Hope it helps.

Hi Michael,

Frankly, that is a bs response.

Hmmm, so much for being respectful.

Whether or not they had sex may not be a factor to you, but it is huge factor to some of us. Sorry, but I would much rather get over an emotional betrayal than a physical one.

You can either make it a factor and quit, or you can choose to work through it. What I read “Hurt” saying is that “if she had sex, I quit.” Yes, it’s pretty typical for males to see the physical betrayal as paramount, and the emotional betrayal as less. Yes, I can comment on this from experience, having been the BS in a three-year affair, that included even plans for marriage eventually. And yes, it hurt a lot knowing they had a sexual relationship.

Let’s put the shoe on the other foot though. If all women BS’s had a line in the sand saying “if my husband had sex with that OW, then reconciliation is impossible to even try”, how many marriages do you think would recover? Where in Surviving an Affair, Divorce Busters, Torn Asunder, or any other marriage recovery material do you find it written that a physical affair excludes recovery from a possible outcome?

For someone to betray you physically, during the M, is not the same. Why? It is one thing to have feelings for someone else. We can't always control that. But you can control whether or not you have sex with someone.

If his wife fell in love with the OM, do you think she’s real concerned about whether she crossed the line of having sex with OM? Do you think control entered into her mind at any point? A lot of these affairs involve people who feel they’ve met their true soul mate, the one they should have been with all along, that fate finally brought them too. But unfortunately they’re already married. But it shouldn’t be right to deny them their chance to be with their soul mate. You have someone so emotionally tied to another person, and then you want to step up and say “you should have thought straight before you had sex with them.” “You should have controlled your emotions.”

WS’s wreck their careers, end their most valued friendships, endure public humiliation – all kinds of stuff – all to just stay in that high of feeling in love, special, cared for. How many evangelists do they parade on TV that destroyed fortunes for some young woman? Do you think “control” or solid judgement came into the picture?

You need to understand what goes on from the other perspective. You look at sex, and say “how could you.” It’s just a generalization, but a lot of women look at a history of a Love Busting spouse, and see that as much, much worse than having sex with OP. “Abusive husband” vs having sex with someone you fell in love with. And no, I’m not saying Hurt was abusive in that sense. But most women stray because of lack of Protection, as well as unmet EN’s. So it’s easy for WS to justify their actions due to a spouse that obviously doesn’t love them.

I’m probably talking in circles now. And if you don’t want to understand, it’ll be easy for you to pick this apart too.

Now, if he loves her and wants to be with her, he will have to decide if it is something he can get over. But, if he decides that is something he cannot live with, that's his decision, and I for one would respect it.

Marriages in worse circumstances have recovered. It’s not an easy task, but can be done nonetheless. I’d rather see Hurt make a decision to try. My impression reading what he wrote is that if she crossed this physical line, then he quits. Period. It reminds me of a conventional counselor we used for months, who eventually said “she doesn’t love you anymore, so the only thing left to do is divorce.”

But I understand that the feelings were there, and she could not control how she felt. But she could have controlled going to bed with OM.

She couldn’t control how she felt, but she should have controlled having sex with him. Think about the statement you just made. Think about how many people’s actions are driven by their feelings. I suspect you are on the other end of the spectrum, but you’ve got to recognize the feeling-driven behavior of others nonetheless.

Hurt, get your answers if you must. But then sit down and decide whether you really want to make the physical affair a deal-breaker. Especially if your wife is willing to work with you on recovery.

P

Before anybody dismisses a PA as being less painful or destructive than an EA, I'd like to remind everybody that a PA seldom exists by itself. This is especially the case when it comes to WW's who had the PA to keep their OM from leaving them. Many FWW's have said that they had wished that their EA had not crossed into PA territory because not only did it make it harder for their BH's to deal with the images of them having sex with another man, but also because sex to them became a shameful and painful reminder of their involvement with their OM. Restoring physical intimacy is much, much harder when an PA is added to an EA.

And lets not get wrapped up in generalizations that 'men are more hurt by a PA and women are more hurt by an EA' because this theory got shot out of the water just last year when it was discovered that in a mixed group of people, women were just as emotionally distraught with the idea of their men involved in a PA, as the men were with the idea of their women involved in a PA.

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by persistant:
<strong>Hi Michael,

If his wife fell in love with the OM, do you think she’s real concerned about whether she crossed the line of having sex with OM? Do you think control entered into her mind at any point? A lot of these affairs involve people who feel they’ve met their true soul mate, the one they should have been with all along, that fate finally brought them too. But unfortunately they’re already married. But it shouldn’t be right to deny them their chance to be with their soul mate. You have someone so emotionally tied to another person, and then you want to step up and say “you should have thought straight before you had sex with them.” “You should have controlled your emotions.”

P</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree with you. Let me give you an example of why. My sister was married with a small child, when she met and fell in love with the man who was her "soul mate". Despite going to MC and working the M, she ended up divorced, and is now married to the OM.

However, during her first marriage, even though she had fallen in love with another man, she did not have a PA, in fact never even went so far as to kiss him. Why? She said that even though she did not love her husband anymore, she said she could not and would not have sex outside her marriage. I think this is one reason why my W's EA/PA has devastated me so much. My sister respected her H and her M enough not to have a PA. My W evidently respected neither.

So I don't buy that people in the throws of passion during an EA lose their minds, and somehow can't control whether or not they sleep with the OP. I think in most cases it is more accurate to say they decide to use their passions as an excuse to have SF outside the marriage and know full well what they doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Frankly, that is a bs response.

Hmmm, so much for being respectful.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, and I apologize.
Michael

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

Some other past facts that make the sex issue in my case more relevant. My wife was a virgin when I met her (Mid 20's - strong Cathloic upbringing with a feared and respected father). Control of her sexual actions has always been very strong. I was the only man she has had sex(intercourse)with till this day! (And I hope sex of any kind since knowing her).

She was and is beautiful and very sexy! She is stared at & I am sure hit on all the time.

Being a Virgin was not a requirement it was a surprise to me. I was concerned about her only experiencing me. We fell in love and this fact turned out to be a bonus.

I would NOT be able to work this out if she had sex of any kind. That would mean she gave up all of her control and totally betrayed me, beyond repair.

Michael,

I believe your sister is the exception to the norm. An “exceptional” woman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So I don't buy that people in the throws of passion during an EA lose their minds, and somehow can't control whether or not they sleep with the OP. I think in most cases it is more accurate to say they decide to use their passions as an excuse to have SF outside the marriage and know full well what they doing.

Ok, maybe they don’t lose their minds. But they are so caught up in the relationship, the feelings, etc., that I don’t think they step back and do a reality check of their moral character. From our own experience, the woman may choose to have SF with the OP just to please him, because he is meeting needs, protecting, and developed romantic love with her. She wants to return the feelings. Even though she may normally has no need for SF, nor desire for it. There is a desire to please him.

Maybe you define that as “having an excuse”. But again, I think you see some pretty uncontrollable behavior out of people in the throws of exciting affairs. A husband of one of the ladies that I work with had an affair with a younger woman. It was incredible the infatuation and the things that he did, destroying his family, displacing friends, and financial wreck just to be with this woman. The funny thing is that the wife felt she needed protection – he was self employed, had some money issues already – and didn’t want to see him destroy their finances. So she moved quickly to divorce. He was so out of it, and just wanted to be “free to be with his true love”, that he basically gave wife everything she asked for. Not touching her retirement account, the house went to her, lake property – he walked away with nothing. It was not 50/50 as required in Texas – it was more like clothes, truck, and wife paid off one of his tax liens. This guy when from a college-educated savvy individual, to a bumbling love-struck moron. I don’t think the girlfriend (OW) realizes that the guy walked away with nothing. Sometimes there is a happy ending, and everybody gets what they deserve. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hurt,

Your wife’s history regarding sex sounds almost identical to my wife, including the attractiveness part. And yes, the fact that it was a physical affair made it very difficult for me to get over. D-day for us was about 1-1/2 years ago. I still have resentment. But a lot of things have been overcome in that period, and we are on our way to recovery.

Whereas I hold the PA/EA as being the terrible thing she did to me, she says that years of unmet needs and Protection issues caused her to fall out of love with me, and drove her to the escape of the affair. The realization that I had a part in it too, not shoving her into his bed, but not working to keep her in our relationship, helps me hold the resentment in check, gives me some ownership in what happened, and not slide into playing the innocent victim.

I would NOT be able to work this out if she had sex of any kind. That would mean she gave up all of her control and totally betrayed me, beyond repair.

Again, if she’s willing to work toward recovery, I think you should try. Especially if there are any children involved. If down the road you realize that you really, really cannot do it, then do what you have to.

P

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: persistant ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would NOT be able to work this out if she had sex of any kind. That would mean she gave up all of her control and totally betrayed me, beyond repair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh you'd be surprised how the vast majority of us BS's said that before we found out about our WS's A's. You really won't know for sure until you cross that bridge.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would NOT be able to work this out if she had sex of any kind. That would mean she gave up all of her control and totally betrayed me, beyond repair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh you'd be surprised how the vast majority of us BS's said that before we found out about our WS's A's. You really won't know for sure until you cross that bridge.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was thinking the same thing. I know it was harder for me to get over the emotional part of the affair than it was the sex. Emotions are stronger and even more of a threat to a M than sex is, even though it's easier to think about them talking than them having sex.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by persistant:
[QB]Michael,

I believe your sister is the exception to the norm. An “exceptional” woman.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, my sister is probably an exception. But then, she has always been an exceptional person, whom I admire greatly.

Look folks, I am not trying to diminish the impact of an EA. No two A's are alike, nor are the people involved in them. If one person is more offended by the PA than the EA, why is that wrong?

My wife did have a PA. I am struggling with it, but have not made the decision to end it based on that alone. But, I fully understand that for some people there are lines that can't be crossed, things that can't be taken back.
Michael

Sorry MichaelinDallas, I don't respect your sister. It does not matter if she had a PA during the marriage or not, she had an EA and ended the marriage so she could have a PA.

EA or PA, the emotion attachments for a woman is there. There must be some problems in a marriage for an EA to occur. For one spouse to say that if a PA occurred that that is it, tells me that person has a lot of pride. He/she is keeping score in the marriage and that is one of the big problems with the marriage. So what if a PA occurred now is the time that both parties can look at the problems in the marriage and deal with the issues to make a truly remarkable marriage occur. Yes PA hurt, I know, but you can decide to get through it. Marriage is a learning process. We come to marriage with expectations. You can now each discover what marriage is really like and place yourselves on the right tracks. You can deal with the true problems that are now uncovered that have always existed but have never been dealt with.

You will survive this, so can your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hubby:
<strong>Sorry MichaelinDallas, I don't respect your sister. It does not matter if she had a PA during the marriage or not, she had an EA and ended the marriage so she could have a PA.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, I understand your view. In the case of my sister, I respectfully disagree. Not all marriages are made in heaven. Not all marriages should survive. My sisters first husband was no bargain. Despite that, she worked very hard on saving the M, both before and after she met her current husband. She did not end her marriage to have a PA, she ended it because it was not working, and she had found someone else she could love. She has been married to her second husband for over ten years now. I would not call that a PA.
Michael

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...My wife was a virgin when I met her (Mid 20's - strong Cathloic upbringing with a feared and respected father). Control of her sexual actions has always been very strong. I was the only man she has had sex(intercourse)with till this day! (And I hope sex of any kind since knowing her)....

I would NOT be able to work this out if she had sex of any kind. That would mean she gave up all of her control and totally betrayed me, beyond repair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Given that, do you understand how much pain she must have been in in order for her to have had a PA, if she did?

I don't think HBH's comment about it being beyond repair if there was a PA is a pride thing, I think it is a lack of understanding.

When my wife made the choice for her EA to go PA, she said to herself "What difference does it make? I have already betrayed my H." She was correct in the assessment that she had already betrayed me. IMO the PA made it worse because 1.) I consider a PA a worse betrayal, if for no other reason that it makes the betrayal "concrete" (along the same lines as "one small act of kindness is worth more than a thousand beautiful thoughts") and 2.) (MUCH more importantly) it was not until that point that she admitted to herself that what she had been doing earlier WAS a betrayal, and she fully, consciously decided to continue to betray me, instead of taking it as a wake-up call.

However, I DO understand her point of view: she had already betrayed me. The PA was simply the next logical step. The way SHE understood it at the time, it was not even a very big step. So my "lack of understanding" comment means I think HBH does not understand the seriousness of the situation when it is "only" an EA.

My wife had an EA with her boss for several years. I always knew they were close enough that it made me mildly uncomfortable, but did not find out about the extent of it until about one month before the EA with another co-worker started that became a PA. I did exactly nothing when I found out. That is one of the biggest regrets I have in life, and it was because I did not understand the significance of what an EA meant to a woman (or at least most of them, including my wife).

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>