WS has decided to stay at home instead of separation for now anyway. We are both going to individual counseling, me to get a life outside of work, her for not being able to express or have "emotional needs". We have both supressed our needs, and are conflict avoiders.

She has expressed the changes that she feels I need to make for myself but cannot tell me what changes I need to make for her. She doesn't know yet because she has suppressed her needs or has felt they are invalid or an indication of weekness. She fulfills those needs through affairs.

Now this seems to me that WS is putting it all on me. I want to do everything possible to save the marriage but after all the affairs and mistrust I find it very hard. WS has supposedly stopped seeing OM but told him it is OK if he checks in with her occasionally. I have no clue if she is still seeing him.

WS will not go to marriage counseling because she sees no purpose because of the need for both of us to get individual counseling to deal with our individual issues.

This leaves me with no emotional support from her whatsoever. I am putting myself into the counseling and changing 100% for me because I know I need it. But the pain of having her just hang around and watch is getting very hard. I feel like I need to know if she is actually still seeing OM and then go to Plan B. Please help.
------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003

<small>[ May 22, 2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Joquin1 ]</small>

If my post is confusing I can answer any questions anyone has. I need some input please.

Have you printed out the Emotional Needs Questionnaires from this site? If your W is willing to fill them out, it will make your plan A easier, b/c you'll have a better understanding of what EN's to fill for her.

If she will not fill out the forms, then if you can be totally honest and truthful with yourself and the conditions and memories of your M, then YOU can fill them out for her. It helps to think back to seemingly small comments here and there. There are HUGE messages within those... even if they were simply sighs or grunts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My H was a conflict avoider as well... and that made fulfilling his EN's all the more difficult. I did manage to do it though, and it was NOT from him filling out the EN Questionnaires either. So yes, it took a bit longer... but it did happen.

As far as you needs not being fulfilled... that my friend, is THE biggest downfall of doing plan A. It is also why Dr.Harley suggests a limited plan A, and then moving to plan B (if necessary) so that your love bank doesn't get in the red.

The fact that you are both in IC is great. Do you have the same counsellor? Your going to IC is perfect to assist you in your plan A. Yes, you probably have your own issues to deal with... but remember what Harley talked about in one of his articles: you cannot deal with it all. There's no point in opening up all of those cans of worms. Sometimes it's best to learn to let go, and move on, because there simply isn't enough TIME to deal with everything from your past.

Karen

Karen,

Thanks for the reply. No, my WS would not fill out the EN questionare. She does know what her emotional needs are, doesn't know how to connect with them and if she could she feels I am too messed up to fulfill them.

I am relying on past memories as we have been married for 24 years. I am keeping my love bank as high as possible not talking about OM or her "problems".

We are both seeing our own counselors. She doesn't see any good for marriage counseling because there is nothing she wants out of the relationship.

Most of my "issues" are present day stuff. Like reaching out beyond my business and getting going helping people and having fun. I was/am co-dependent and always thought my self worth came from WS's approval. Big mistake.

When is it time to go to Plan B?

John
----------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003

<small>[ May 24, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Joquin1 ]</small>

I'm a co-dependant too. Thank goodness I'm now aware of it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have you read "Co-dependant No More" by "Melody Beattie"? If not, I HIGHLY recommend it to you. It will help you in your healing tremendously!

When to go to plan B? Well, Harley suggests that once the WS cannot decide between the OP and the S, then it's time to move to plan B. A great plan A must occur prior to moving to plan B as well. The timeline varies between people. Some are in plan A for over a year (such as Lor(Lor) who was in plan A for 18 months before filing for D, and then reconciling with her WH), whereas others believe in a short plan A (within the 6 month suggestion by Dr. Harley).

Not talking to your W about OM is EXCELLENT plan A behaviour!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And a real tough one to avoid as well! Kudos to you!! However, what do you mean about not helping your W with her problems? If it means you're no longer enabling her actions, then great. However, if she needs someone to listen to her (NOT to give advice or to help solve; typical co-dependant characteristics).. then it would benefit your plan A to learn how to be a great listener. I know all too well how hard that can be, as I was always wanting to jump in and help "fix" my H's problems for our entire R and M. WRONG move on my part.

Karen

I have read Melody Beattie's book. It was enlightening to find out I did not "deserve" the pain of 4 affairs.

I am taking every opportunity to listen to WS when she will talk. She shared stuff from a counseling appointment that she needs to find her emotions after being stuffed for 24 years. And that it is ok for her to have needs. Her revelation is that I am not capable of fulfilling them, and that she married me because I was "safe" and would not push to get her to feel anything. Now not all of this is a shocking surprise to me. I now how I've been, and I know she says she has tried for years to get through to me.

She says it's all up to me how much I can change. I know that is impossible for me to meet expectations of hers that she cannot even really describe beyond telling me to get a real life for myself. So I guess my only choice here is to go really find myself and maybe she'll choose to come along.
-----------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003

<small>[ May 24, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Joquin1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Joquin1:
<strong>So I guess my only choice here is to go really find myself and maybe she'll choose to come along.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Welcome to plan A!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Karen

Originally posted by Joquin1:
......... Her revelation is that I am not capable of fulfilling them, and that she married me because I was "safe" and would not push to get her to feel anything. Now not all of this is a shocking surprise to me. I now how I've been, and I know she says she has tried for years to get through to me.

Orchid: Similar could be said for you or any other spouse but is it enough to warrant an A? This sounds like babble. Looking for an excuse to justify the A.

She says it's all up to me how much I can change. I know that is impossible for me to meet expectations of hers that she cannot even really describe beyond telling me to get a real life for myself. So I guess my only choice here is to go really find myself and maybe she'll choose to come along.
-----------------------------------------------
Me BS 51
WS 47
married 24 years
D-Day #1 1980
D-Day #2 1981
D-Day #3 1987
D-Day #4 April 2003

Orchid: Your W's statement that it is up to you is more fog babble. In reality it is up to her whether you will allow her back with or without changes. The one who strayed is not the BS. It is the WS. Even if you did make mistakes.... which ones warranted the A or A's? None of them did. The fact that there were multiple D/ds over a decade shows that she has deeper issues.

Have either of you taken the Emotional Needs questionnaire? If she won't, U should for both of you. You may find that your needs are more lacking than her's and that it is not needs she is lacking it may be another symptom.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid: Your W's statement that it is up to you is more fog babble. In reality it is up to her whether you will allow her back with or without changes. The one who strayed is not the BS. It is the WS. Even if you did make mistakes.... which ones warranted the A or A's? None of them did. The fact that there were multiple D/ds over a decade shows that she has deeper issues.

So what are those issues? How can they be found out and dealt with? Is her history of affairs an ingrained character flaw that she cannot overcome?

Have either of you taken the Emotional Needs questionnaire? If she won't, U should for both of you. You may find that your needs are more lacking than her's and that it is not needs she is lacking it may be another symptom.

I've taken the questionnaire, she won't. I tend to have more needs than she does. Some of her needs I have clearly not met. She has no hope that I can meet them. Her "babble" is also that she has needs that she has not expressed because she does not know how or has always thought that those needs would show weakness.
She is now undergoing counseling to find out how to express all her needs and to find out what they are. She says her life has been empty of joy and passion and I have not led the way and I have chosen not to get involved in her life (some truth) and that I live a boring unfulfilling life.

<small>[ May 24, 2003, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Joquin1 ]</small>

My emotions are in such upheaval I've had to start taking anti-depressants. Would someone who has also had to do this please tell me how long I should stay on them. I've never been a pill person but I could'nt even work or concentrate on life in general.

I've never been much of a pill person either (I don't even like to take an aspirin for a headache). But right now, I'm on anti-d's for the 2nd time since d-day.

The first time around, I was on "Celexa" for 4 months. It was enough to get me over an emotional hump I was in. Now, I'm in month #2 of taking "Effexor", and plan on being on them for another year at least (until my H's criminal trial is over with... I'm a primary witness). And then I have family members (first cousins) who will be on anti-d's for life.

I believe it's between you and your doctor, as to how long you should be on them. Dr.Harley recommends them for a short term (a few months?), if it will help to think more straight (which makes plan Aing easier... at least by helping to minimize the LB's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

There are lots of threads in the GQII board regarding anti depressants. I suggest you start a new thread over there... maybe create a poll to find out how long everyone's been on them, if they are, etc? Or you can just do a search on here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Karen

It takes anti-depressant medications about four to six weeks to maximize their full benefits. In general, individuals are often on anti-depressants about 4 to 6 months if they're going through alot of situational stressors. This can last longer if the stressors last longer. Stress depletes our natural "feel good" chemicals, like serotonin and dopamine. Anti-depressants aren't meant to make us feel "high" but bring us up to a "normal" level of functioning, so we have a foundation to handle our stressors. Some people will need anti-depressants for a lifetime, much like a diabetic requires insulin. Their brains just don't produce the right balance of mood regulating chemicals. As mentioned previously, check this out with your doctor. Only s/he knows you and your health needs on an individual basis.